Unironically YES. I've watched every one of Destiny's "Change My Mind" style college campus student conversations and not a single one was something Crowder-esque, where he farmed dunks on unwitting children to make their worldview seem ridiculous. We ridicule conservative grifters for doing this because it's always inherently dishonest, with the intention of straw-manning our positions. Not because they're conservative.
I love debate, and it's important. You HAVE to have your ideas challenged to make sure you have them for the right reasons.
What is there to debate with this topic? What is gained from it? He is a content creator, not an advocate. He's doing what he's doing for clicks. He's 100% doing what he's doing to dunk on kids, and that's 1000% what his audience tunes into see. Just because he canvasses for Dems and some of what he says isn't demonstrably awful doesn't make this something unique and beneficial to anyone but himself and his profile.
It's not about association, it's about dialogue. And fighting bad ideas with good ones. Not everyone will turn their nose up and snobbishly dismiss what their "opponents" have to say. Some people will take these conversations to heart, and then introspect, and then deconstruct, and then... change.
But it can't happen if no one's willing to talk. Destiny is. And asshole though he may be, we need more people willing to talk. To everyone.
Does "fighting bad ideas with good ones" require zionist and genocide apologia?
The people on college campuses engaging in these protests are already radicalized and putting very real things on the line to do what they're doing. There's zero benefit for them to humor him or anyone else looking to farm content over it. Them not talking to him is not them avoiding challenges to their ideas...
EDIT: Oh, I thought you were talking about the kids being buffoons not the grifter chick. But I'd argue he's built up enough of a renown for his political advocacy and debates that no one would mistake him for her ilk. For fuck's sake he's debated Norman Finkelstein and Omar Bhaddar.
What is there to debate with this topic? What is gained from it? He is a content creator, not an advocate. He's doing what he's doing for clicks. He's 100% doing what he's doing to dunk on kids, and that's 1000% what his audience tunes into see. Just because he canvasses for Dems and some of what he says isn't demonstrably awful doesn't make this something unique and beneficial to anyone but himself and his profile.
You're just demonstrably wrong (about him doing the same thing that they do). Whether it's because you haven't seen a Ben Shapiro or Matt Walsh vid lately, or because you refuse to watch any of Destiny's conversations with college students. You're just wrong if you think he's doing the same thing.
EDIT: Forgot to explain what there is to debate. Several political debates about Israel/Palestine are about whether Biden should be supported or not and if it'll actually help Palestine to try to strongarm Biden into providing more support. Some are about what news sources are trustworthy to learn about the conflict. Some are about whether anti-Zionism is tantamount to anti-Semitism (technically no, but the line is getting more and more blurry). Some are whether or not it's an actual genocide or not, which I'm willing to bite the bullet and claim it is even though I'm not convinced, just to skip past the moralizing.
Yes, unfortunately. Truth matters, even if it falls on the side of your political opponents. For fuck's sake, you could argue I'm a genocide apologist for all the pushback I'm giving to M3J. Doesn't make the things I'm saying any less true.
The people on college campuses engaging in these protests are already radicalized and putting very real things on the line to do what they're doing. There's zero benefit for them to humor him or anyone else looking to farm content over it.e Them not talking to him is not them avoiding challenges to their idas...
Why can't it be both? And as for the benefit for them to humor him, they get the same benefit he does sans ad revenue from youtube, provided they know their shit: they get to test their ideas in real time and see if they hold them for the correct reasons while also, potentially, engendering respect from Steven's own community, causing the lefties that watch his content (of which there's a considerable amount) to mobilize as well. It's a tug of war for resources: the resource being political support.
First off, the Omar Baddar debate wasn't out in full yet when I posted what I posted: Breaking Points just showed a preview of it so they could poison the well before people could watch Steven go to work. It was literally them pulling out all the things that they assumed would make Steven look bad. It's why I didn't link it here, because I want people to see the full context, so if that's what you're going off of, their ploy worked.
Unless you meant their first conversation... in which:
Londerbox also went over this debate in a video of his own and showed everywhere Steven was factual, and also nonfactual. So while it wasn't his best showing, he's been making progress evidenced in his later debates.
Secondly, do you HONESTLY think Steven did worse than Finkelstein did in that debate!?
What is there to debate with this topic? What is gained from it? He is a content creator, not an advocate. He's doing what he's doing for clicks. He's 100% doing what he's doing to dunk on kids, and that's 1000% what his audience tunes into see. Just because he canvasses for Dems and some of what he says isn't demonstrably awful doesn't make this something unique and beneficial to anyone but himself and his profile.
Does "fighting bad ideas with good ones" require zionist and genocide apologia?
The people on college campuses engaging in these protests are already radicalized and putting very real things on the line to do what they're doing. There's zero benefit for them to humor him or anyone else looking to farm content over it. Them not talking to him is not them avoiding challenges to their ideas...
Yeah and he embarrassed himself both times. You're placing far too much importance on what he does and why he does it IMO.
Beginning to question my stance in the past week or so after seeing how Biden has responded to the protests. Instead of calling out the cops for causing violence, he's blaming it on protesters. Literally the main reason why I have not talked about Biden still being a better option amongst the Palestine supporters is because of the genocide, as annoyed as I got at people preferring Trump over Biden.
Like, how do you tell people to vote for someone who's allowing a genocide to happen, while they're losing their own family members? This is one hill I will not get on without a good reason, especially given the other domestic issues that have happened under Biden that I mentioned.
Beginning to question my stance in the past week or so after seeing how Biden has responded to the protests. Instead of calling out the cops for causing violence, he's blaming it on protesters. Literally the main reason why I have not talked about Biden still being a better option amongst the Palestine supporters is because of the genocide, as annoyed as I got at people preferring Trump over Biden.
I know why. What I don't know is why you're willing to make it worse.
Like, how do you tell people to vote for someone who's allowing a genocide to happen, while they're losing their own family members? This is one hill I will not get on without a good reason, especially given the other domestic issues that have happened under Biden that I mentioned.
By proving to them that the opponent won't stop the genocide either, but will also make things worse for the people being genocided, AND for the people in America.
All insults and posturing aside: I'm asking you this as someone who can't understand you no matter how hard I try. Because I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT.
What do you think Trump will do to help Palestinian people?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Let's try it this way:
Biden and Trump are both Zionists. That's a given. So let's assume they both start at a Zionism power level of 5 out of 10. So what else do we know about these two people that would let us know whether or not they would try to stop the Palestinian genocide?
Trump, early in his presidency, did a Muslim ban. I won't say he hates Muslims.... but I will say he's willing to throw Muslims under the bus in order to appease the conservative voter base. And American conservatives hate Muslims. Not generally, let's say... Evangelicals hate Muslims. Or at the very least, Islam.
Trump needs to appeal to his voter base to get into the white house. To do that he needs to lean into xenophobia like he did the first time. Build That Wall, and the like. But now we have this huge issue that would get him votes from American Muslims and young college-age Lefties. He could say "I'm gonna stop the Palestinian genocide so vote for me!"
But he hasn't. He's continued to be in lock-step with Biden on Zionism, and has consistently spoken about how crazy the protestors are. Biden has however, at least taken steps to aid the people in Gaza. I'll say that at least prevents him from gaining an extra point. But Trump should gain an extra one.
Trump 6
Biden 5
So let's say the protests work and you all throw away democracy. Say you let Trump win the election to spite Democrats that don't give a shit about the genocide. And then... in order to appease the Republicans that voted for Trump (the evangelical Zionists that hate Muslims and love Israel), Trump decides to not only stop whatever aid Biden has sanctioned... but decides to not push back against Netanyahu on anything. And even encourages him to be more brave with the IDF raids and bombings.
What do you do now? Are you proud of yourself for causing more Palestinian children to die? Was spiting Democrats worth the blood that's now on your hands?
By proving to them that the opponent won't stop the genocide either, but will also make things worse for the people being genocided, AND for the people in America.
Not from US, but I am sure this logic won’t work for a significant number of people who takes the issue seriously. It’s easier to just not vote for them than to vote for someone who in principal is supporting Israel while lying nominal lip service to the other side to get some votes.
If dems do lose their votes, dem officials mostly have themselves to blame. For taking their vote for granted while only standing by the only defence that the other side would do worse. This stance does not inspire people to go out and vote.
Let’s say, trumps stance “we will build a wall to keep Mexicans out”, this may not be a stance supported by majority but for the people who supports this stance, it actually motivates them to go out and vote.
Dems defence for most cases are fear mongering about a republican presidency. And for the people whose life were mostly unaffected by Trump presidency, are less likely to give in to the fear compared to last election unless their life dramatically improved under Biden admin. Or the significant policies they support has been implemented by Biden. Which so far may not have been the case for many, I guess.
It might not work, sure. But it won't be because it's not true. It'll be because people aren't willing to accept it.
Which... I can understand being too emotional to be reasonable. It's just unbelievably frustrating to see someone break their nose to spite their face.
Well, it seems democrat party won’t change their stance on the Israel-Palestine issue unless significant number of their electorate takes this issue seriously enough to affect elections outcome. So it’s not the people to blame. They are basically exercising the only bit of power they have to make a bit of change.
Not from US, but I am sure this logic won’t work for a significant number of people who takes the issue seriously. It’s easier to just not vote for them than to vote for someone who in principal is supporting Israel while lying nominal lip service to the other side to get some votes.
If dems do lose their votes, dem officials mostly have themselves to blame. For taking their vote for granted while only standing by the only defence that the other side would do worse. This stance does not inspire people to go out and vote.
Let’s say, trumps stance “we will build a wall to keep Mexicans out”, this may not be a stance supported by majority but for the people who supports this stance, it actually motivates them to go out and vote.
Dems defence for most cases are fear mongering about a republican presidency. And for the people whose life were mostly unaffected by Trump presidency, are less likely to give in to the fear compared to last election unless their life dramatically improved under Biden admin. Or the significant policies they support has been implemented by Biden. Which so far may not have been the case for many, I guess.
The problem is that the Israel/Gaza conflict is not nearly as important to voters as this thread would have you believe. It takes up a ton of this thread because it’s an important issue to the very few who frequent it. I can tell you that most people here care about inflation, housing affordability, health care, having a job, student loan reform, etc.. much more than they care about Palestine/Israel. People care about it, sure, but it’s not really the average voter’s problem to sort out. The biggest threat to Biden is RFK, not the conflict across the world.
That said, Democrats have always been poor strategists when compared to Republicans. So you can usually count on them to lose an election they should be able to win.
One and done. Using the word "genocide" doesn't evoke the emotional response that M3J thinks it does either so saying it over and over again isn't moving the needle any.
It's why I used the comparison like a month back about how when you're watching tv, and a commercial comes on about children starving in African nations (with swollen bellies and everything)... you'll get sad for a moment, and you'll wonder why nothing is being done about the starving children... but then that's the full extent of your concern. You wait through the rest of the commercial and then just finish watching your tv show.
That's what the Israel/Palestine conflict is to Americans. It's starving children in Africa. No one cares. It's sad to say, but moralizing won't help the situation. We need people to be realistic. Because real solutions are at the end of that path.
I am curious though: has there ever been a presidential candidate that lost the presidency because they ignored the protests of like... anti-war hippies?
I know why. What I don't know is why you're willing to make it worse.
By proving to them that the opponent won't stop the genocide either, but will also make things worse for the people being genocided, AND for the people in America.
All insults and posturing aside: I'm asking you this as someone who can't understand you no matter how hard I try. Because I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT.
What do you think Trump will do to help Palestinian people?
How is it going to get any worse than Biden allowing the genocide to happen? How is it worse than Israel literally saying "fuck you" to the international court and continuing to hurt, torture, and kill Palestinians and even go after other countries? I mean, I realize you don't know or talk to any pro-Palestine people or know much about this subject, but Palestinian Americans themselves acknowledged this long ago and have said it can't get any worse.
Palestinian Americans and Muslims know Trump won't help them. I'd say more, but I don't want to speak on their behalf, especially when I'm pretty sure my memory's not accurate.
But I do know years ago I thought the same as you - candidates can't be 100% perfect, and it shouldn't matter as much what their views on Israel v Palestine were. Then not only did I see the pictures, watch the videos, and hear horror stories of what Israel was and is doing, but how it also affects USA, and now I realize my mistake.
Let's try it this way:
Biden and Trump are both Zionists. That's a given. So let's assume they both start at a Zionism power level of 5 out of 10. So what else do we know about these two people that would let us know whether or not they would try to stop the Palestinian genocide?
Trump, early in his presidency, did a Muslim ban. I won't say he hates Muslims.... but I will say he's willing to throw Muslims under the bus in order to appease the conservative voter base. And American conservatives hate Muslims. Not generally, let's say... Evangelicals hate Muslims. Or at the very least, Islam.
You and I both know that he'll do what his voter base says, and they hate Muslims.
Reason #1 why I was Biden for 2024 until last month, I believe.
However, Biden keeps throwing Muslims under the bus. He keeps bringing up Hamas and ignores photos and videos of Zionists' violence in Gaza and in USA. Do you know how bad Biden looked when he brought up seeing pictures of beheaded babies, ONLY for the White House to walk that back and say it never happened? He's even calling protesters violent, but he's ignoring the violence actually started or committed by Zionists.
Trump needs to appeal to his voter base to get into the white house. To do that he needs to lean into xenophobia like he did the first time. Build That Wall, and the like. But now we have this huge issue that would get him votes from American Muslims and young college-age Lefties. He could say "I'm gonna stop the Palestinian genocide so vote for me!"
But he hasn't. He's continued to be in lock-step with Biden on Zionism, and has consistently spoken about how crazy the protestors are. Biden has however, at least taken steps to aid the people in Gaza. I'll say that at least prevents him from gaining an extra point. But Trump should gain an extra one.
Biden has barely done anything to help people. He's continuing to help Israel commit genocide and giving them billions of dollars while Palestinians get so little, like expired food. That's a huge part of the problem, Biden isn't doing what anyone with compassion should, for Palestinians.
Trump knows he'd lose tons of support from his voter base with that risk, because the left and the Muslims won't vote for him. There are a minority that'd be dumb enough to, but overall they know he's a horrible president. However, Trump has carried out or tried to carry out his campaign promises, so I dunno here.
So let's say the protests work and you all throw away democracy. Say you let Trump win the election to spite Democrats that don't give a shit about the genocide. And then... in order to appease the Republicans that voted for Trump (the evangelical Zionists that hate Muslims and love Israel), Trump decides to not only stop whatever aid Biden has sanctioned... but decides to not push back against Netanyahu on anything. And even encourages him to be more brave with the IDF raids and bombings.
What do you do now? Are you proud of yourself for causing more Palestinian children to die? Was spiting Democrats worth the blood that's now on your hands?
Protests are part of democracy. Protests causing universities to divest from Israel (few already did) is democracy. Protests resulting in more attention to what's going on in Israel and resulting in more support to Palestine is democracy (even the other way around).
But it'd be Democrats letting Trump win if they continue to stay with Biden. By forcing people to vote for Biden or shaming people into voting for Biden, you're the ones actually throwing away democracy. The refusal to vote for him isn't just to spite him or Dems, but it's because those that don't want to vote for him don't believe in him.
As I said multiple times, Biden promised to save Roe v Wade, cancel student loans, do more against covid, and take down the wall, for starters, but he did not uphold those promises, regardless of fault. It did not make sense for Biden to try and get people back in office when working remotely was a much better option, and he also stopped covid support like free tests or sending test kits or something, which I forgot. Covid's still out there even if the media doesn't cover it as much.
Biden isn't pushing back against Netanyahu, he's just doing that publicly for image.
PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ARE ALREADY DYING!! That's the problem! No one is going to see Trump doing any worse than Biden, except the only difference might be Trump actually doing more to stop the genocide for whatever self-serving reason!
Amid reports of fresh Israeli airstrikes in Gaza overnight into Wednesday, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) said that more children have been killed there in recent months than in four years of conflict worldwide. “This war is a war on children. It is a war on their childhood and...
turkiye.un.org
.
But um, Destiny just admitted to spending limited time to doing research. Debating isn't enough. Funnily, people that did actually do the research, like Hozier or Macklemore, support Palestine.
Not from US, but I am sure this logic won’t work for a significant number of people who takes the issue seriously. It’s easier to just not vote for them than to vote for someone who in principal is supporting Israel while lying nominal lip service to the other side to get some votes.
If dems do lose their votes, dem officials mostly have themselves to blame. For taking their vote for granted while only standing by the only defence that the other side would do worse. This stance does not inspire people to go out and vote.
Let’s say, trumps stance “we will build a wall to keep Mexicans out”, this may not be a stance supported by majority but for the people who supports this stance, it actually motivates them to go out and vote.
Dems defence for most cases are fear mongering about a republican presidency. And for the people whose life were mostly unaffected by Trump presidency, are less likely to give in to the fear compared to last election unless their life dramatically improved under Biden admin. Or the significant policies they support has been implemented by Biden. Which so far may not have been the case for many, I guess.
Exactly! Especially when rights have been lost and promises broken.
But also, for the left that know Biden continued Trump's wall project, it's even less reason to vote Biden. And aren't immigrants in custody still being separated and all that stuff that happened under Trump? Fear mongering against Trump doesn't work when those same fears are happening under Biden.
The problem is that the Israel/Gaza conflict is not nearly as important to voters as this thread would have you believe. It takes up a ton of this thread because it’s an important issue to the very few who frequent it. I can tell you that most people here care about inflation, housing affordability, health care, having a job, student loan reform, etc.. much more than they care about Palestine/Israel. People care about it, sure, but it’s not really the average voter’s problem to sort out. The biggest threat to Biden is RFK, not the conflict across the world.
I have also mentioned other issues like student loans, inflation, and more hurting/killing Biden's chance. Saying it's not the average voter's problem is wild when our tax money is literally being used to fund genocide instead of programs that can help us.
By pursuing a genocide, instead of simply allowing it to happen. It's one thing to not care if a genocide is happening. It's another thing altogether to aid in it happening because your voter base hates Muslims.
It's "Letting a genocide happen" vs. "helping a genocide happen".
Palestinian Americans and Muslims know Trump won't help them. I'd say more, but I don't want to speak on their behalf, especially when I'm pretty sure my memory's not accurate.
Sure. I just wanted to make sure we all understood it. Because none of us are claiming that Biden is super helpful to Muslim Americans or Palestinian Americans specifically. We're just saying we know who definitely isn't.
You and I both know that he'll do what his voter base says, and they hate Muslims.
Reason #1 why I was Biden for 2024 until last month, I believe.
However, Biden keeps throwing Muslims under the bus. He keeps bringing up Hamas and ignores photos and videos of Zionists' violence in Gaza and in USA. Do you know how bad Biden looked when he brought up seeing pictures of beheaded babies, ONLY for the White House to walk that back and say it never happened? He's even calling protesters violent, but he's ignoring the violence actually started or committed by Zionists.
Biden has an unenviable position right now, sure. He has to respond in certain ways for obvious political reasons.
Israel are our allies. Hamas is attacking our allies. We have allegiance with Israel, not Palestine. Meaning outside of being "the good guys", we don't have any obligation to the Gaza strip. Any aid offered to quell the plight of the Palestinian people is a privilege. Politically we don't owe them anything, but we DO owe allegiance to our literal allies.
There's no room to make a moral stance and say "Hey Israel, we're breaking up with you if you don't stop killing Palestinian children." It just doesn't work like that.
Biden has barely done anything to help people. He's continuing to help Israel commit genocide and giving them billions of dollars while Palestinians get so little, like expired food. That's a huge part of the problem, Biden isn't doing what anyone with compassion should, for Palestinians.
Trump knows he'd lose tons of support from his voter base with that risk, because the left and the Muslims won't vote for him. There are a minority that'd be dumb enough to, but overall they know he's a horrible president. However, Trump has carried out or tried to carry out his campaign promises, so I dunno here.
Barely anything is not nothing. Not only will Trump do nothing to help Palestinians, but he'll actively try to hurt them. THAT'S why he's worse than Biden. It's literally:
Biden: I'm not going to stop the genocide, but I'll help Palestinians a little bit.
Trump: I'm not going to stop the genocide. I'm not going to help Palestinians at all. And I'm going to actively try to hurt Palestinians when the opportunity presents itself.
But it'd be Democrats letting Trump win if they continue to stay with Biden. By forcing people to vote for Biden or shaming people into voting for Biden, you're the ones actually throwing away democracy. The refusal to vote for him isn't just to spite him or Dems, but it's because those that don't want to vote for him don't believe in him.
No we aren't, because we're not the ones that are going to let the guy who tried to overthrow the election once already win. We're voting for the right person. The people that won't are sabotaging the election. Those protests you love so much are done when Trump is back in office. He gassed protestors so that he could take a picture with a bible. He didn't give a shit about their right to protest, his right to virtue signal was more important.
I don't want to vote for Biden either. I don't believe in him either. But I have a responsibility as an American citizen to fight for the nation I live in, and the only true weapon I have, is my vote. For every woman who's gonna die trying to force birth from an ectopic pregnancy because they can't get an abortion. For every gay and lesbian person who's turned away from adoption agencies because 90% of adoption agencies are religious organizations and won't allow gays to adopt children that need loving families. For every trans person turned down for gender-affirming care or are banned from entering spaces that their expressed gender aligns with. For every person of color who's kids are being raised in a public schooling system where conservatives want to rewrite history to take away anything in the curriculum that explains systemic racism or the racist origins of America. For everyone that's not a straight white Christian male that doesn't want to live under a theocracy, whether they believe in a different God or no God at all.
These are the things I'm fighting for, and that fight is an uphill battle with a Republican as president. And the only thing Biden has to do in order to motivate you to vote for him, is NOT be the guy that wants to stand in the way of all of these things. That's good e-fucking-nough for anyone who claims to be any kind of ally to marginalized groups. If you're going to cry about Biden not doing enough, what you're really saying is you're fucking selfish, because your one SPECIFIC pet peeve isn't being tended to, and you're willing to abandon all the people I listed because Biden isn't perfect.
And in this particular situation, that one pet peeve is... the Israel/Palestine conflict.
PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ARE ALREADY DYING!! That's the problem! No one is going to see Trump doing any worse than Biden, except the only difference might be Trump actually doing more to stop the genocide for whatever self-serving reason!
But you're not responsible for those. You WILL be responsible for every single one that Trump is actively choosing to cause though if you help him into office by not voting for Biden. So go right ahead and kill some Palestinian kids for the sake of social clout. I hope their suffering is worth it.
I would maintain this is pretty simple. The US has no third party option. At least not in the upcoming elections barring something cataclysmic happening in US politics. The options for the next US president are biden or trump, at this point I doubt it matters what trump is even guilty of.
College protests have their place in the news cycle but as far as voting goes protesters don't matter since at best they probably won't vote at high enough rates.
Even if they did there's no real chance this moves trump since even trying to get this vote would conflict with his pretty secure evangelical/christian vote. And those as far as I know are unlikely to waver in their israel support.
democrat's best chance at more pro-palestine policy remains biden.
The USA gave Israel $3.5B total last year. The total budget for the USA was $6.3T last year. To bring this to a micro-economic perspective,
3,500,000,000/6,300,000,000,000 = 0.00056, or 0.05% of the budget.
The median family budget in the USA is about $72,000.
0.05% of $72,000 is about $40, or about $0.10 daily.
If all of Israel's aid were recalled and distributed equally amongst US citizens it would equal to $10 per person.
If the entirety of the $61B given in foreign aid in 2023 were distributed equally amongst US Citizens, it'd be $179 per person.
If you used every penny of the total budget (bearing in mind that this money also goes to places like South Sudan that have it just as rough as Gaza) toward all existing student loan debt, you'd reduce the total by about 3%, and it'd go right back up to where it was within a year due to continued borrowing by students.
1% of the total budget on any given year goes to "International Affairs." This is also not entirely monetary. For instance, you lamented us giving Ukraine aid but I don't recall you acknowledging that the aid was not in the form of dollars, but munitions (older munitions, at that). It's not like we can distribute bullets around to the needy.
Taxes are the price of living in any given country and the government is allowed (via the Constitution) to spend this on Geopolitical interests, which could include funding the only country that doesn't hate us in a given region as a buffer against Iran/Russia/China/North Korea.
Again. Voters do not give a fuck about Gaza, and Israel getting aid is not the thing standing between them having zero student loans, free healthcare, a house, or whatever you might think it is they're entitled to. This whole argument you're making is an emotional appeal and not logical. You seem to have zero understanding of Geopolitics and consequences. Israel isn't a "fund or don't fund" it's a "fund or someone else will fund." Like them or not they're a global leader in missile defense, cyber security, and various other armaments.
Here's how your dream scenario would likely play out:
USA cuts funding to Israel.
Israel struggles to fund their Iron Dome which keeps them safe from external threats and bombardments.
Due to point 3, and the fact that Hamas (possibly Iran too, since USA isn't backing them anymore) shoots thousands of missiles into Israel pretty often, Israel starts taking real damage from enemy forces.
Israel enters "shit or get off the pot" mode and actually performs an ethnic cleansing of Gaza to eliminate the constant missiles entering their airspace.
The region completely explodes and both Palestinians and Jews (and Arabs) lose many - mostly citizens - because of the Hamas vs Israel game.
We're a carrot and a stick to Israel. They need us to survive. US Presidents have successfully put pressure on Israel to get them to the table with Palestine. USA influence is what got Arafat and Rabin to the table in the Oslo Accords, and the Madrid Conference. Biden has put pressure on israel in more ways than one. One of those is pushing Israel toward a ceasefire and protecting innocent civilians. You act like he's over there performing an ethnic cleansing himself, when in fact he's doing very much all that's within his power to do.
So no, what's wild to me is your complete and utter lack of understanding in how anything in this world works beyond what appeases your own mind. If you had your way Gaza would be a fucking hole in the ground that, if we're lucky, would have history books referencing it about half a century from now.
I would maintain this is pretty simple. The US has no third party option. At least not in the upcoming elections barring something cataclysmic happening in US politics. The options for the next US president are biden or trump, at this point I doubt it matters what trump is even guilty of.
The USA is definitely stuck with two parties. I'd love to see something like rank-choice voting implemented but it'd probably require a constitutional amendment, and we're never getting one of those again.
This point is what really drives it home. You don't get to say you care about the Palestinians while simultaneously smirking at the idea of handing the 2024 election to Donald Trump. As individuals we have to work within the confines of what we have available, and no one person (even the president) can fix the situation in Gaza.
Trump sees the war as a PR crisis, and Biden sees it as a humanitarian crisis. Trump is all for having anyone who was protesting on campuses expelled from campuses, as well as having any peaceful pro-Palestine protesters deported and their student visas revoked. Trump wants Israel to get in there and "end things fast" (which we all know what that means). Biden wants to reduce civilian casualties and work toward a two-state solution. Anyone who wants to give their vote to Trump (by not voting for Biden) and claims they care about Palestinians may as well be over there be piloting the drones doing the killings themselves.
Again. Voters do not give a fuck about Gaza, and Israel getting aid is not the thing standing between them having zero student loans, free healthcare, a house, or whatever you might think it is. This whole argument you're making is an emotional appeal and not logical. You seem to have zero understanding of Geopolitics and consequences. Israel isn't a "fund or don't fund" it's a "fund or someone else will fund." Like them or not they're a global leader in missile defense, cyber security, and various other armaments.
Here's how your dream scenario would likely play out:
USA cuts funding to Israel.
Israel struggles to fund their Iron Dome which keeps them safe from external threats and bombardments.
Due to point 3, and the fact that Hamas (possibly Iran too, since USA isn't backing them anymore) shoots thousands of missiles into Israel pretty often, Israel starts taking real damage from enemy forces.
Israel enters "shit or get off the pot" mode and actually performs an ethnic cleansing of Gaza to eliminate the constant missiles entering their airspace.
The region completely explodes and both Palestinians and Jews (and Arabs) lose many - mostly citizens - because of the Hamas vs Israel game.
We're a carrot and a stick to Israel. They need us to survive. US Presidents have successfully put pressure on Israel to get them to the table with Palestine. USA influence is what got Arafat and Rabin to the table in the Oslo Accords, and the Madrid Conference. Biden has put pressure on israel in more ways than one. One of those is pushing Israel toward a ceasefire and protecting innocent civilians. You act like he's over there performing an ethnic cleansing himself, when in fact he's doing very much all that's within his power to do.
So no, what's wild to me is your complete and utter lack of understanding in how anything in this world works beyond what appeases your own mind. If you had your way Gaza would be a fucking hole in the ground that, if we're lucky, would have history books referencing it about half a century from now.
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The USA is definitely stuck with two parties. I'd love to see something like rank-choice voting implemented but it'd probably require a constitutional amendment, and we're never getting one of those again.
This point is what really drives it home. You don't get to say you care about the Palestinians while simultaneously smirking at the idea of handing the 2024 election to Donald Trump. As individuals we have to work within the confines of what we have available, and no one person (even the president) can fix the situation in Gaza.
Trump sees the war as a PR crisis, and Biden sees it as a humanitarian crisis. Trump is all for having anyone who was protesting on campuses expelled from campuses, as well as having any peaceful pro-Palestine protesters deported and their student visas revoked. Trump wants Israel to get in there and "end things fast" (which we all know what that means). Biden wants to reduce civilian casualties and work toward a two-state solution. Anyone who wants to give their vote to Trump (by not voting for Biden) and claims they care about Palestinians may as well be over there be piloting the drones doing the killings themselves.
There's a lot that's being overlooked in this discussion for sure, including the fact that Zionism is a response to hostility towards Jews that was very much a thing. Jews are raised to be victims and a lot of it is rooted in history. Was giving modern-day Israel to the Jews the answer? Probably not the best one, but the 40s and 50s were a different time and I think allies were apprehensive about making Germany pay reparations to their victims given how Hitler took power.
I think the most likely situation if the USA pulled out would be that Russia or China would step up to be Israel's sugar daddy. It'd give them access to some of the best weapon development in the world. It wouldn't change anything about Palestine's situation other than the fact that the USA would lose a critical ally in the Middle East, a ton of international influence, and our enemies would likely gain much stronger weapon systems. You'd end up with the same result except the average US citizen would be worse off.
There's a lot that's being overlooked in this discussion for sure, including the fact that Zionism is a response to hostility towards Jews that was very much a thing. Jews are raised to be victims and a lot of it is rooted in history. Was giving modern-day Israel to the Jews the answer? Probably not the best one, but the 40s and 50s were a different time and I think allies were apprehensive about making Germany pay reparations to their victims given how Hitler took power.
I think the most likely situation if the USA pulled out would be that Russia or China would step up to be Israel's sugar daddy. It'd give them access to some of the best weapon development in the world. It wouldn't change anything about Palestine's situation other than the fact that the USA would lose a critical ally in the Middle East, a ton of international influence, and our enemies would likely gain much stronger weapon systems. You'd end up with the same result except the average US citizen would be worse off.
I feel like that's the bit of history that's not being ignored on the issue. Unless we get to holocaust denial... Jewish migration to israel started some 20 years before WW2... And what went on at the time it's incredibly relevant to the current shitshow, as much as WW2 events... The creation of israel is still the worst geopolitical mistake of the 20th century but it's still not going anywhere in the end.
I don't have a very specific set of events I think would happen if such a dramatic shift were to happen but it's clear that the US losing its most important military ally in the region would have a big effect on geopolitics... I suppose russia and china (and india?) going to town is a given but how exactly I don't know.
I feel like that's the bit of history that's not being ignored on the issue. Unless we get to holocaust denial... Jewish migration to israel started some 20 years before WW2... And what went on at the time it's incredibly relevant to the current shitshow, as much as WW2 events... The creation of israel is still the worst geopolitical mistake of the 20th century but it's still not going anywhere in the end.
I agree with you. My main point was that you have a group of trained victims with nukes, missile defense systems, fighter jets, and some of the most advanced military systems on the planet. The answer is definitely not to push them into desperation (which cutting funding would do). We can all sit around and have a "Fuck Zionism" circle jerk, but Zionism is a side effect of the hostilities they face in the world that are very real, and it's not going to go away if the USA pulls out of Israel.
I don't have a very specific set of events I think would happen if such a dramatic shift were to happen but it's clear that the US losing its most important military ally in the region would have a big effect on geopolitics... I suppose russia and china (and india?) going to town is a given but how exactly I don't know.
China would jump at the opportunity to try and broker a two-state deal. They'd fail miserably because they don't know what an undertaking that is (if it were easy it'd of been done already). They'd also steal a ton of IP in the process. Russia would jump at the opportunity to use Israel as a way to enhance their own offensive capabilities and sow chaos for the west. They'd tap into Israel's cyber-security capabilities to make life hell for everyone else. They'd also have to reconsider some of their current alliances (Iran for instance). I don't think India has any skin in the game.
Bottom line is if you live in the USA your life would definitely not improve. For one the money used on things like foreign aid doesn't just return to the people in a vacuum. There'd be a butterfly effect in the world and it's unlikely that any Palestinian lives would be saved.
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