Discussion - Characters who are stronger than Ryoma Echizen Right Now(Pre Finals VS Spain)? | MangaHelpers



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Discussion Characters who are stronger than Ryoma Echizen Right Now(Pre Finals VS Spain)?

Is Ryoma Echizen Stronger than Genius 5 Right now? ( Pre Finals)

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mathematicianrcg

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Please move this post to proper one if I unintentionally duplicated something like this.

But since we are having discussions in MS Tier list how strong Ryoma currently is?

I guess one way to measure is who are the players who are clearly stronger than him?

I will try to name some players on top of my head

Spain: Ryoga and Medanore

Germany: Volk and QP

Japan: Byodoin, Tanegashima, and maybe Tokugawa

USA and Switzerland: (Hmmm, Is Ryoma same level or stronger than Ralph and Amadeus right now?)

France: Maybe Camus

That's it. Mostly HS. As for MS, it is debatable but maybe only Tezuka has an argument. (Idk how strong Spain MS yet)

In short, these are the only players I am sure stronger than Ryoma right now (Pre Finals)

Volk, Medanore, Ryoga, Byodoin, QP, Tanegashima.

Do u agree? Or I am forgetting some names?
 

LetalHawk

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I’d say Ryoma right now can probably beat all of the Hsers except Byo, Toku and maybe Tane (but I’m unsure about this as it could be 50-50). He can of course beat Duke and I think he has enough tools to combat and beat Oni.

For the other countries is really hard to tell. He probably can’t beat Volk because obvious reasons and unless he gets the strongest upgrade we’ve seen so far, Q.P’s ultimate aura might give him a lot of trouble. Since he’ll overcome consume that is, along the Infinite Tornado, the most ridiculous ability we’ve seen, I guess his final upgrade will be stronger than the Ultimate Aura of Q.P.

From USA, everybody except Ralph (but again I’m unsure, he could beat him too if given the chance).

Spain impossible to tell. But since he’ll beat Ryoga, he might beat everyone there (unsure about Medanore). Right now he can’t probably beat Medanore or Ryoga.

France: Probably he can beat Camus in a long fight, so most likely he can beat everybody. I don’t think he played at 100% vs Ludovic and wasn’t fully serious.

Switzerland: Amadeus can probably beat Ryoma but if he’s able to at least beat Ralph, then he should be able to deal with Amadeus.

I consider Ralph, Amadeus and Camus to be equal to each other or, at least, being in the same tier and therefore relatively close in terms of overall stats. So if Ryoma can probably handle or be able to beat players like this prior to the finals, then he should be in this tier too.
 

Hardy

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I’d say Ryoma right now can probably beat all of the Hsers except Byo, Toku and maybe Tane (but I’m unsure about this as it could be 50-50). He can of course beat Duke and I think he has enough tools to combat and beat Oni.

For the other countries is really hard to tell. He probably can’t beat Volk because obvious reasons and unless he gets the strongest upgrade we’ve seen so far, Q.P’s ultimate aura might give him a lot of trouble. Since he’ll overcome consume that is, along the Infinite Tornado, the most ridiculous ability we’ve seen, I guess his final upgrade will be stronger than the Ultimate Aura of Q.P.

From USA, everybody except Ralph (but again I’m unsure, he could beat him too if given the chance).

Spain impossible to tell. But since he’ll beat Ryoga, he might beat everyone there (unsure about Medanore). Right now he can’t probably beat Medanore or Ryoga.

France: Probably he can beat Camus in a long fight, so most likely he can beat everybody. I don’t think he played at 100% vs Ludovic and wasn’t fully serious.

Switzerland: Amadeus can probably beat Ryoma but if he’s able to at least beat Ralph, then he should be able to deal with Amadeus.

I consider Ralph, Amadeus and Camus to be equal to each other or, at least, being in the same tier and therefore relatively close in terms of overall stats. So if Ryoma can probably handle or be able to beat players like this prior to the finals, then he should be in this tier too.
Oni probably overwhelms him with his power tbqh. His Golden Jack Knife (that he didn't use vs Kin) almost ends Kaji, and he has a 10 there. I think Ryoma has a better chance against Tokugawa than Oni.

Based on how disappointed Ralph was when he played Ryoma, I think the latter can actually make it competitive and keep his serve (albeit I do think Ralph is better). On the same vein, Ryoma himself mentions that Kiko "always finds a way to beat you" so, assuming he speaks about his personal experience, I think Kiko "barely" edges him too.

Sort of agree on everything else. Amadeus rallying for so long against Akutsu is a crazy feat and he barely lost to Ralph so I think he also beats Ryoma. Camus is kind of pointless to discuss but apparently Duke stood a decent chance against him so I'm not too sure he's on the same level as Ralph and Amadeus (unless we see Duke in that tier).

Speaking of Camus, based on Niou-Duke, Bertie seems comfortably better than him and I don't see current Ryoma beating the German either.

Bismarck was doing well 1v2 vs Duke-Fuji and was better than Tane (at least before his final upgrade) so he stands a decent chance, too. Tezuka might barely edge Ryoma as well. Germany was really stacked.

I need to reorganise my thoughts a bit better but hopefully the gist of it was understandable, lol.
 

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Personally, I put QP above Bismarck because I put Oni whom got an "irregular" ranking as above Tanegashima. I actually think Oni is the strongest HS outside of Byoudonin and Tokugawa. QP hype just always seemed so high.

To answer the main question, I think Oni, Byoudonin, Tokugawa, Volk, QP, Ryoga, and Medanore are all above Ryoma right now. Some characters prowess seem to drop drastically in doubles so I wouldn't put Bismarck against Duke/Fuji as high as what would happen in singles (Although him being able to beat Tanegashima before the upgrade do prove he's a strong singles player as well).

In singles, if Duke can give some intense match to Tokugawa, then perhaps Duke/Camus/Tanegashima might be beyond the current Echizen as well. That said, it also depends on how Echizen will do well against Ryoga. If Echizen can go toe to toe with Ryoga in terms of scoring instead of getting stomp 6-0 in his first set, then he "might" already stand a chance against other top HS players if that make sense.
 

RadicalEdward

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I’d say Ryoma right now can probably beat all of the Hsers except Byo, Toku and maybe Tane (but I’m unsure about this as it could be 50-50). He can of course beat Duke and I think he has enough tools to combat and beat Oni.

For the other countries is really hard to tell. He probably can’t beat Volk because obvious reasons and unless he gets the strongest upgrade we’ve seen so far, Q.P’s ultimate aura might give him a lot of trouble. Since he’ll overcome consume that is, along the Infinite Tornado, the most ridiculous ability we’ve seen, I guess his final upgrade will be stronger than the Ultimate Aura of Q.P.

From USA, everybody except Ralph (but again I’m unsure, he could beat him too if given the chance).

Spain impossible to tell. But since he’ll beat Ryoga, he might beat everyone there (unsure about Medanore). Right now he can’t probably beat Medanore or Ryoga.

France: Probably he can beat Camus in a long fight, so most likely he can beat everybody. I don’t think he played at 100% vs Ludovic and wasn’t fully serious.

Switzerland: Amadeus can probably beat Ryoma but if he’s able to at least beat Ralph, then he should be able to deal with Amadeus.

I consider Ralph, Amadeus and Camus to be equal to each other or, at least, being in the same tier and therefore relatively close in terms of overall stats. So if Ryoma can probably handle or be able to beat players like this prior to the finals, then he should be in this tier too.
Not serious against Ludovic? He was in the hospital after the match! That only means Ludovic was really strong, and he was eventually able to overcome Hope, and he had his OP return "Allez." Ryoma can beat anyone in the series, but that match is the latest gauge on his level.
 

LetalHawk

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Not serious against Ludovic? He was in the hospital after the match! That only means Ludovic was really strong, and he was eventually able to overcome Hope, and he had his OP return "Allez." Ryoma can beat anyone in the series, but that match is the latest gauge on his level.
Ryoma was constantly trying to beat Prince at his own game. This became evident when he used his Allez! return and was pissing him off, and at the last set when he was waiting for the chance to return the SSS doubled. Why didn’t he use TnK or other strong moves like his Glowing Drive B? Or the applications of the glowing shot in his other techniques? To me he would have had a much easier time if he indeed did use them, chances are he didn’t need to, therefore he didn’t use the 100% of his arsenal.
 

Hardy

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Glowing Drive B is kind of a meme but Letal has a point.

That said, once the "stand" battle gets going in the final set it's really hard to argue he wasn't going all in, specially with a time limiter. I'd say Ryoma is better but there isn't a big gap between them.
 

LetalHawk

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Glowing Drive B is kind of a meme but Letal has a point.

That said, once the "stand" battle gets going in the final set it's really hard to argue he wasn't going all in, specially with a time limiter. I'd say Ryoma is better but there isn't a big gap between them.
I can agree him going all out in the last set, but why didn’t he resort to using TnK in the end? Imo he’d have had a much easier time for taking the W and wouldn’t have suffered as much.
 

-Ken-

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I can agree him going all out in the last set, but why didn’t he resort to using TnK in the end? Imo he’d have had a much easier time for taking the W and wouldn’t have suffered as much.
This forum used to be filled with people who had the theory that Echizen cannot use PoP at will for a while. It's not until 10.5 come out that it died down. However, that theory is not completely without merits because Echizen didn't really use PoP on screen in NPoT.
 

LetalHawk

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This forum used to be filled with people who had the theory that Echizen cannot use PoP at will for a while. It's not until 10.5 come out that it died down. However, that theory is not completely without merits because Echizen didn't really use PoP on screen in NPoT.
Iirc Ken, he did use it against Kirihara in ch 272:

Also in the other flashback where Yanagi and Sanada appear, so apparently Ryoma can use it willingly.

I do think he can use it freely but chose not to against Ludovic, or he was already using his Samurai and both things can’t coexist atm (smthing like a Kijin TnK).
 

RadicalEdward

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Iirc Ken, he did use it against Kirihara in ch 272:

Also in the other flashback where Yanagi and Sanada appear, so apparently Ryoma can use it willingly.

I do think he can use it freely but chose not to against Ludovic, or he was already using his Samurai and both things can’t coexist atm (smthing like a Kijin TnK).
Yeah, Ryoma was using his Samurai stand, and Ludovic was using his Knight stand.
 

Hardy

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Yeah Ryoma played with TnK already in NPoT. Pretty sure he used it even against Dodo IIRC.

I can agree him going all out in the last set, but why didn’t he resort to using TnK in the end? Imo he’d have had a much easier time for taking the W and wouldn’t have suffered as much.
I think he didn't use it because thus far no one has managed to use both Kijin and TnK at once like you said in your other comment, yeah.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Granted, you could argue that him switching to TnK vs Ludovic for a game would had thrown the French off a bit, maybe giving him an edge? Instead he fought head on with his own Kijin.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

I'm currently wondering if Oni managed to use TnK and Kijin vs QP towards the end of the match. It's bugging me a lot actually haha.
 

LetalHawk

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Yeah Ryoma played with TnK already in NPoT. Pretty sure he used it even against Dodo IIRC.



I think he didn't use it because thus far no one has managed to use both Kijin and TnK at once like you said in your other comment, yeah.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Granted, you could argue that him switching to TnK vs Ludovic for a game would had thrown the French off a bit, maybe giving him an edge? Instead he fought head on with his own Kijin.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

I'm currently wondering if Oni managed to use TnK and Kijin vs QP towards the end of the match. It's bugging me a lot actually haha.
Oh true, he did use it lol. He showed his demon spirit while he was in TnK, altough he was badly injured so in the end it wasn’t shown properly.

I think that he could have gotten the upper hand for more games had he used TnK, in the long run Ludovic might have gotten used to it, but Ryoma might have won more easily that way.
 

Hardy

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Oh true, he did use it lol. He showed his demon spirit while he was in TnK, altough he was badly injured so in the end it wasn’t shown properly.

I think that he could have gotten the upper hand for more games had he used TnK, in the long run Ludovic might have gotten used to it, but Ryoma might have won more easily that way.
I think it works as a final upgrade for Oni. He was still in TnK but QP was subjected by the effect of the Kijin at the same time. If we believe this, then Oni really had a chance to turn it around with this new momentum instead of standing no chance at all (... Which I believed until today lol).
 

-Ken-

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Iirc Ken, he did use it against Kirihara in ch 272:

Also in the other flashback where Yanagi and Sanada appear, so apparently Ryoma can use it willingly.

I do think he can use it freely but chose not to against Ludovic, or he was already using his Samurai and both things can’t coexist atm (smthing like a Kijin TnK).
oh yeah, I completely miss that. Good catch. In that case, yes, the people who think Echizen cannot use PoP willingly back then are all obviously wrong. I'm actually quite glad on that, because I was saying just because his match with Tokugawa is off screen doesn't mean Echizen can't use PoP, which many people seem to think that's the reason why for some reason.
 
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Hardy

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Looking back, it's actually a good reason to say he had TnK. Konomi didn't want to show the final door being defeated so he just off screened Ryoma vs Tokugawa, lol.
 

Kaoz

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I don't have a real opinion on the thread's main question yet, but I want to weigh in on one of the arguments.

Ryoma was constantly trying to beat Prince at his own game. This became evident when he used his Allez! return and was pissing him off, and at the last set when he was waiting for the chance to return the SSS doubled. Why didn’t he use TnK or other strong moves like his Glowing Drive B? Or the applications of the glowing shot in his other techniques? To me he would have had a much easier time if he indeed did use them, chances are he didn’t need to, therefore he didn’t use the 100% of his arsenal.
One of the reasons might be the way TnK explicitly got re-contextualized in Yukimura vs Tezuka. Up until that match, all we knew was that it provided some sort of stat boost to the user. Back in PoT 378, Inui even suggested that it simply builds on Ryoma moving Hyaku Ren's aura to different parts of his body. There was no mention of other effects, though, like Hyaku Ren's doubled return or Saiki's shot count prediction.

In Yukimura's match, we learned of the pressure the aura exerts and we saw how much this affects the way the match goes - Yukimura went from being overwhelmed to winning the set when he blocked out TnK's light. I guess we don't know if Konomi always worked with that in mind or made it up during the semifinals, but for the benefit of the argument, I will assume that this has been true somewhat consistently.

To circle back to Ryoma vs Ludwig, Ludwig did beat Hyaku Ren easily when Ryoma used it on his legs. Ryoma's main concern was even getting the ball back, so maybe in the sense of increasing his own abilities, TnK wouldn't have made a real difference. On the other hand, we saw that Ludwig easily caught up with Ryoma's attacks, so TnK might not have provided enough of an offensive boost either.

Of course that's not the whole picture. But if Ludwig essentially showed that he could deal with the way the aura would've improved Ryoma, the real question is how he would've dealt with the additional effect, the light itself. This might be a stretch, but I wonder if Ryoma opting for Hyaku Ren over TnK could imply that TnK's secondary effect wouldn't have worked? Maybe Ludwig is so conceited that he wouldn't have been taken in by the light. I'm not necessarily arguing that he has higher mental strength than e.g. Dorgias or Yukimura in general, but maybe his personality would've allowed him to pass that particular test more easily.




As for Drive B and COOL Drive, I think part of the problem is that Ryoma was never in a position to use them. Drive B is a move that requires forward momentum, but Ludwig was making Ryoma run from side to side all the time, even when Ryoma was finally able to get into rallies. Similarly, COOL Drive requires a high ball as setup and Ludwig never gave Ryoma any of those either. This is a case where I'd give Ludwig credit for sealing the shots instead of Ryoma choosing not to use them.

It seems to me that the only Glowing Shot candidate besides Hope would've been Twist Serve, but it's again unclear to me if that would've been more effective than the regular Twist Serve he used to set up Hope.




With all that said, I still agree that Ryoma probably didn't play his best tennis, at least during the first set. I also think the reason wasn't Ryoma holding back, though, but his mental state at the time. Before the match started when Ludwig provoked Ryoma, Fuji said that Ryoma was flustered or distressed. Getting aced point after point from the beginning probably didn't help matters. In the end it took Mifune to actively coach Ryoma for Ryoma to change his strategy and focus on attacking with Hope. I reckon he was at 100% either after that or at the latest after regaining consciousness at the end of the second set.

Finally, even though Ryoma won the last game of the second set by copying Ludwig, it doesn't seem like the copy was perfect. Troughout the match, the commentary was that Hope was Ryoma's only consistent way of scoring. I guess in the final set, Ludwig could still stick to his patterns all the way, but Ryoma had to keep changing it up and score with non-repeatable tactics.

This actually ties into the final point as well. Ryoma resorting to Hope again made Ludwig think that Ryoma had run out of novelties, but returning SSS was the final ace up Ryoma's sleeve. I think this should be read as Ryoma saving a trump card until the end, similarly to how he only scored once against Tanishi's Big Bang, and not as him holding anything back. If he had tried to win the whole set that way, Ludwig may well have found a counter to it.
 

mathematicianrcg

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Based on how disappointed Ralph was when he played Ryoma, I think the latter can actually make it competitive and keep his serve (albeit I do think Ralph is better). On the same vein, Ryoma himself mentions that Kiko "always finds a way to beat you" so, assuming he speaks about his personal experience, I think Kiko "barely" edges him too.
Yes, I think USA kinda been a little underestimated because they are destroyed by Spain. And we are not shown any destructive powers and skills (like Japan HS) made by them. (At least that we know of)

Until today, I remember the hype of USA here, when Ryoma said USA will surely beat Japan when they play a match. That was in pre World Cup.

It is up to you to decide whether it is credible or not. Maybe Ryoma misjudge and miscalulated the power scale? Maybe he was right before the Japan HS powerups?

Going back to the question, I think when Ryoga and Ryoma was in USA.

He always lose to Ralph, Dodo, Kiko, and maybe even Alan. (I doubt Ryoga played Ryoma)

But right now? without the upcoming powerup to beat Ryoga, maybe he is close or as strong as (Pre Consumed) Ralph and Amadeus???

Is that an over or under estimation of Ryoma's level right now?
 
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-Ken-

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I don't think Ryoma match with Dodo is a fair comparison. He already beat at least SIXTEEN opponents confirmed by this picture. That's at least 16 matches. He's already spent by that time, which is heavily suggested even in the manga with him fainting.


To put in circumstances how ridiculous of a feats that is, many members of the G10 is stated to have problems going through the full sets (maximum of 3). Even if Ryoma only do 1 set match with them, that's still over 5 times of what the a lot of G10 is capable of handling, and with ALL of his opponents being either Champion or Runner up level.

And that's minimum. In actuality, he beat 24 of them, as mentoned here.


Which means he went and beyond 8 times of what a lot of G10 would struggle to do. And still managed to play a little more after that.
 

mathematicianrcg

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I don't think Ryoma match with Dodo is a fair comparison. He already beat at least SIXTEEN opponents confirmed by this picture. That's at least 16 matches. He's already spent by that time, which is heavily suggested even in the manga with him fainting.


To put in circumstances how ridiculous of a feats that is, many members of the G10 is stated to have problems going through the full sets (maximum of 3). Even if Ryoma only do 1 set match with them, that's still over 5 times of what the a lot of G10 is capable of handling, and with ALL of his opponents being either Champion or Runner up level.

And that's minimum. In actuality, he beat 24 of them, as mentoned here.


Which means he went and beyond 8 times of what a lot of G10 would struggle to do. And still managed to play a little more after that.
I agree. I am not referring to that tryout match.

Just a guess when they are practicing fully healthy anf fresh.
 
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