Comparison: Silva and Zeno vs Chrollo-Chrollo vs Hisoka

[Nobody12]

Silva and Zeno vs Chrollo; Chrollo vs Hisoka as fights were different in some aspects but similar in others.

1) Silva and Zeno vs Chrollo

• Silva and Zeno fouth with the intent of killing Chrollo.
• Chrollo fought initially with the intent of stealing their abilities.

1. Chrollo didn't use any offensive ability; as a matter of fact, the only ability that Chrollo used was the Fun Fun Cloth (because he wanted to steal their abilities).
2. Silva e Zeno instead fought with the intent of killing Chrollo, and despite this; Silva had the possibility to kill Chrollo only with the sacrifice of Zeno.

Zeno was sacrificing himself in order to permit Silva to kill Chrollo:

Spoiler

Conclusion: Explosion, Chrollo is defeated but he didn't die (also Zeno didn't die); Chrollo prepared a plan in order to simulate his dead in order to trick the Mafia

2) Chrollo vs Hisoka

• Chrollo, in this case, had many advantages: the abilities of Shalnark and Kortopi to help him, he chose the location of the fight and prepared a precise strategy (using the audience as a human shield and a "hit and run" strategy) in relation to his abilities and the location; used abilities with 2 hands and combined 5 abilities.

Conclusion: Explosion, Hisoka is defeated but after his death, there is his "resurrection".

• Silva and Zeno vs Chrollo= Silva and Zeno started with an "unfair" advantage in an unbalanced fight (2 against 1, and Chrollo didn't fight using all his abilities but to steal their powers)
• Chrollo vs Hisoka= Chrollo started with an "unfair" advantage: the abilities of Shalnark and Kortopi to help him, he chose the location of the fight and prepared a precise strategy (using the audience as a human shield and a "hit and run" strategy) in relation to his abilities and the location; used abilities with 2 hands and combined 5 abilities.

The most important factors in these 2 fights are the context and the situation (2vs1, preparation, choosing the location, etc..).


Personally, I think that Silva and Zeno are overestimated:

1) If Silva or Zeno could have killed Chrollo; they would have done without sacrifice. If Zeno was ready to die in order to kill Chrollo, it means that they weren't able to do it normally.
Zeno was sacrificing his life in order to let Silva kill Chrollo? Why was Zeno suicidal for no reason if he could have defeated Chrollo?
Also, Chrollo didn't use any abilities against them (only the Fu Fun Cloth) and didn't fight with the objective of killing them but stealing their abilities.
The truth is: Silva and Zeno couldn't kill a Chrollo (not in his full strength/all his offensive abilities, only Fun Fun Cloth), fighting in a 2 vs 1, without sacrificing Zeno

2) Silva had trouble killing only one member of the Ryodan (He stated it in the manga and warned Killua).

Chrollo said that it was the first time that he needed so many abilities to kill a single person during his fight with Hisoka (5 abilities).

Spoiler

What is your opinion about these 2 fights?

 

[Demonspeed]

Chrollo had two objectives against Silva and Zeno. He was stalling and wanted to steal Zeno's ability. Against Hisoka he had everything ready to kill him.

Zeno told Silva not to care about him but it doesn't mean that he would have died. They are pros, they know what they are doing.

We don't know how strong that Spider that Silva beat was and we know he also fought Chrollo back then. Both have improved. Silva is much stronger now.

While all the Spiders are strong overall, not everyone is combat oriented.

 

[Nobody12]

While all the Spiders are strong overall, not everyone is combat oriented.

I agree.

Zeno told Silva not to care about him but it doesn't mean that he would have died.

Zeno told Silva to cover him, and once he pins Chrollo down, kill Chrollo, also if it means to kill him as well.

The last attack of Silva was meant to kill both of them (Chrollo and Zeno). Zeno was ready to die in order to let Silva kill Chrollo.
Zeno himself confirms that both he and Chrollo escaped death fortunatelly (because of Illumi killing the dons and calling Silva); otherwise both Chrollo and Zeno would have been killed by Silva's final attack.

Both have improved. Silva is much stronger now.

Silva said that Chrollo was improved from their first fight, there isn't anything in the manga about Silva's improvement.

The point is that they were ready to die in order to stop Chrollo (as Silva said), instead, Chrollo wasn't fighting with all of his strength and abilities but he was stalling and wanted to steal Zeno's ability like you said.
Instead, his fight with Hisoka was the opposite, Chrollo had the Bookmark, abilities with 2 hands, combined abilities, pianification with the right battle location for himself etc.

 

[Uriel]

Both Zeno and Silva have shown straightforward abilities, so I agree they are overestimated. BUT Togashi shows them in the very early stages of Nen, so maybe He can power them up a bit.

 

[Nobody12]

I am unable to explain my opinion in detail here (so you can disagree), but I think that Togashi wants to follow this scheme:

In chapter 95, pages about assassins aired by the mob with Silva and Zeno

Spoiler

There are 6 Assassins with Silva and Zeno divided into 2 groups of 3:

Group 1 (A group 2+1 like Hisoka and Illumi +Tserriednich)

1. Assassin A (the one killed by Chrollo's Indoor Fish) (Yang, White Hair)
2. Assassin B (the one with a bird tattoo on his head) (Yin, Black hair)
3. Assassin C (the one with a Mask) (Yang, White Hair)

Group 2 (A group 1+2 like Isaac Netero + Zeno and Silva)

1. Assassin D (the one with a big nose) (Yang, White Hair)
2. Assassin E (the one with Chinese mustache) (Yin, Black hair)
3. Assassin F (the one with a scar on his face) (Yang, White Hair)

As stated by Kurapika (in terms of general strength):
Zeno and Silva > > Assassin A and Assassin B > Assassin C,D,E,F

Group 3

1. Silva Zoldick, similar to Assassin F (Taller)
2. Zeno Zoldick, similar to Assassin E (Shorter with Chinese Mustache and Chinese dress)
3. (Isaac Netero will join Zeno and Silva in the Chimera Ant arc to complete the group of 3 characters "assassins") similar to Assassins D with a Big Nose.

The relationship between Zeno and Isaac Netero (shown during the Chimera ant arc) was based on this scheme when Zeno said that he and Isaac Netero are like Yin and Yang and that they aren't equal but he was always inferior to him in terms of strength/ability.

The specularity of the couples of "assassins":

• Silva and Zeno vs Chrollo
• Zeno and Isaac Netero vs Meruem

The same for the Hoikoro Family:
Isaac Netero and Beyond Netero represent Yang and Yin of Taijitu/Tao at the center/heart of the Chinese Zodiac.

-Isaac Netero: White hair and White beard, Yang
-Beyond Netero: Black hair and Black beard, Yin

Isaac Netero and Beyond Netero are the two sides of the same coin that make up the Taijitu/Tao at the center of the Chinese Zodiac.

Like Beyond Netero is similar to Isaac Netero (Yang and Yin, White Hair-Black Hair) King Nasubi and his son Benjamin of the Hoikoro family are similar to Zeno and his son Silva of the Zoldyck family.

• Isaac Netero (White hair-White beard) and Zeno Zoldyck (White hair-White Chinese mustache that follows the Chinese culture)
• Beyond Netero (Black hair-Black beard) and Nasubi Hoikoro (Black hair-Black Chinese mustache that follows the Chinese culture)

These are the relationships Fathers-Sons:

1. Isaac Netero and Beyond Netero
2. Zeno Zoldyck and Silva Zoldyck
3. Nasubi Hoikoro and Benjamin Hoikoro

There is always a short in stature/old Father and a tall/muscular Son:
-Short and old fathers: Isaac Netero, Zeno Zoldyck, and Nasubi Hoikoro
-Tall and Muscular sons: Beyond Netero, Silva Zoldyck, and Benjamin Hoikoro (a son that follows and respects his father)

These are the Patriarchs of the three main families: Netero, Zoldyck, and Hoikoro

Main characters (Kurapika/Killua) and main adversaries (Tserriednich/Illumi)
The main characters of the manga are Gon-Killua-Kurapika and their enemies Hisoka-Illumi-Tserriednich:

• Zoldyck Family=Hoikoro Family (an important and powerful family)
• Killua=Kurapika (the main character that interacts with the respective families)
• Alluka=Woble (a female character that must be protected by the main characters Killua/Kurapika and help them)
• Illumi=Tserriednich (evil elder brother that wants to kill Alluka/Woble and have to fight with the main characters Killua/Kurapika)

Tserriednich is the most gifted of the Hoikoro family because he is the main antagonist of Kurapika

During his fight with Hisoka, Chrollo said that it was the first time that he needed so many abilities to kill a single person during his fight with Hisoka (5 abilities). So, it was the first time that he has gone so far as to fight someone (including Silva and Zeno)

It is also related to the main adversaries of the main characters; Gon-Killua-Kurapika are the main characters of the manga and their respective enemies are:

1. Gon vs Hisoka
2. Killua vs Illumi
3. Kurapika vs Tserriednich

 

[Demonspeed]

Both Zeno and Silva have shown straightforward abilities, so I agree they are overestimated. BUT Togashi shows them in the very early stages of Nen, so maybe He can power them up a bit.

Complexity =/= Good Hatsu though. Or most Enhancers wouldn't be good fighters. Plus we don't really know Silva's ability.

I agree.


Zeno told Silva to cover him, and once he pins Chrollo down, kill Chrollo, also if it means to kill him as well.

The last attack of Silva was meant to kill both of them (Chrollo and Zeno). Zeno was ready to die in order to let Silva kill Chrollo.
Zeno himself confirms that both he and Chrollo escaped death fortunatelly (because of Illumi killing the dons and calling Silva); otherwise both Chrollo and Zeno would have been killed by Silva's final attack.

Silva said that Chrollo was improved from their first fight, there isn't anything in the manga about Silva's improvement.

The point is that they were ready to die in order to stop Chrollo (as Silva said), instead, Chrollo wasn't fighting with all of his strength and abilities but he was stalling and wanted to steal Zeno's ability like you said.
Instead, his fight with Hisoka was the opposite, Chrollo had the Bookmark, abilities with 2 hands, combined abilities, pianification with the right battle location for himself etc.

• The call was after the attack, which means that it managed to kill neither. It could have potentially killed both, but it didn't.
• Chrollo was fighting seriously against the Zoldycks, but he was on the defensive because obviously he wouldn't be able to beat two of them by himself.
• Why would Silva be able to gauge how Chrollo has improved compared to before if he himself was at the same level? It makes no sense to assume that Silva didn't improve since their last fight.

 

[Uriel]

Complexity =/= Good Hatsu though. Or most Enhancers wouldn't be good fighters. Plus we don't really know Silva's ability.

Considering that right now you have a person like Camille that if you kill her it will bounce back to you...
I know complexity is not a good hatsu per see, and we have seen Hisoka rocking it with his Hatsu in creative ways. What I'm saying is that what we saw for them was just Nen shaped like a dragon and Nen shaped like spheres. Unless they have something else, both of those are fairly easy to deal with.

 

[Kanmuru]

Personally, I think that Silva and Zeno are overestimated

With overestimated you mean overrated?
No.
You need to remember that:
1- The fight happened very early on.
2- Togashi keeps developing nen and fights along with the story and some of the early stuff doesn't hold up.

The whole point of the fight is to show that chrollo is as dangerous as you can get because he has a lot of abilities and you never know what he'll do. And that you'll die if you don't take your opponent seriously, doesn't matter how broken your abilities are.

Chrollo on full defensive is able to keep up with 2 top tier fighters, if he wasn't defensive he might take 1 or 2(highly doubt that)
Zeno is experienced enough to read chrollo in 2 seconds and corner him with some of the most advanced nen control we've seen (even up to this day)
Silva attack is strong enough to kill both chrollo and zeno. He also obliterated a squadron leader without him even noticing

 

[Nobody12]

The call was after the attack, which means that it managed to kill neither. It could have potentially killed both, but it didn't.

It isn't related to what i said: The point was that Zeno was ready to die in order to let Silva kill Chrollo:
If Silva or Zeno could have killed Chrollo; they would have done without sacrifice. If Zeno was ready to die in order to kill Chrollo, it means that they weren't able to do it normally.

Chrollo was fighting seriously against the Zoldycks, but he was on the defensive because obviously he wouldn't be able to beat two of them by himself.

Chrollo wasn’t fighting seriously:

Do you have read his conditions to steal an ability?

Chrollo intended to meet all these conditions in order to steal Zeno's ability. He was hardly doing seriously. He was on the defensive because of the difficulties of fighting in 2vs 1 and at the same time, met the condition to steal their abilities. (He didn't use any offensive ability, he used only the "fun fun cloath")

Even Zeno understood that Chrollo wasn’t fighting with all his strength as he commented at the end of the fight.
Instead, Zeno obviously was fighting seriously with the intent of killing Chrollo and was ready to sacrifice his life in order to let Silva kill him (because he wasn't able to do it normally without Silva's help, otherwise he wouldn't sacrifice himself)

Why would Silva be able to gauge how Chrollo has improved compared to before if he himself was at the same level? It makes no sense to assume that Silva didn't improve since their last fight.

It is not necessary that he must be improved in order to understand Chrollo's improvement. It is all speculation Silva's improvement
Simply in the first fight, he fought Chrollo alone, now he has to fight him with Zeno's help.
The truth is: Silva and Zeno couldn't kill a Chrollo (not in his full strength/all his offensive abilities, only Fun Fun Cloth), fighting in a 2 vs 1, without sacrificing Zeno

1- The fight happened very early on.
2- Togashi keeps developing nen and fights along with the story and some of the early stuff doesn't hold up.

Like in every shonen manga, more and stronger abilities with the progression of the story.

However, the fact that the fight happened early on doesn't cancel his relevance in relation to the character's strength and abilities.
Yes, Togashi (like every shonen manga) improves the strength and abilities of characters with the progression of the series. It doesn't cancel completely everything that happened early in the manga.

With overestimated you mean overrated?

Yes, I mean overrated, but it doesn’t mean that Silva and Zeno arent top fighters. I mean overrated compared to Chrollo and Hisoka

And that you'll die if you don't take your opponent seriously, doesn't matter how broken your abilities are.

Yes, Chrollo didn’t take Silva and Zeno seriously to fight with them with the intent of killing them. This was the reason he lost the fight.

The point of these 2 fights was like Biscuit said:

The generally “weaker” (in terms of 1 vs 1 on equal conditions) defeat the “stronger” (in terms of 1 vs 1 on equal conditions) because of the preparation and the situation:
-Zeno and Silva defeated Chrollo
-Chrollo defeated Hisoka

• Silva and Zeno vs Chrollo= Silva and Zeno started with an "unfair" advantage in an unbalanced fight (2 against 1, and Chrollo didn't fight using all his abilities but to steal their powers)
• Chrollo vs Hisoka= Chrollo started with an "unfair" advantage: the abilities of Shalnark and Kortopi to help him, he chose the location of the fight and prepared a precise strategy (using the audience as a human shield and a "hit and run" strategy) in relation to his abilities and the location; used abilities with 2 hands and combined 5 abilities. Also, it has to be pointed out that Hisoka wanted to destroy Chrollo's strategy at his peak, not only kill him but failed (like Chrollo wanted to steal Zeno's ability, not kill him, but failed)

In reality in a 1 vs 1 (in equal situations/condictions) it would be: Hisoka > Chrollo > Zeno or Silva (individually).

This is also the reason why:

1) Silva had trouble killing only one member of the Ryodan (He stated it in the manga and warned Killua). Instead, Hisoka now is fighting with all the Ryodan’s members including Chrollo (and most of them will be certainly killed by Hisoka).

2) During his fight with Hisoka, Chrollo said that it was the first time that he needed so many abilities to kill a single person (5 abilities). So, it was the first time that he has gone so far as to fight someone (including Silva and Zeno).
Because Togashi also wanted to point out:
Chrollo is infallible in the preparation, he can create a strategy of battle with preparation beforehand that has 100% of winning
Hisoka is infallible in improvisation, he can always find a solution to win a battle with his genius mind (as a matter of fact he was also able to survive Chrollo's strategy of 100% winning and now he is reversing the situation against him in terms of improvisation, and the improvised situation/environment against every Ryodan's member and Chrollo)

 

[Demonspeed]

I don't know how you can believe he was fighting two of the strongest Zoldycks and was not serious. What does being serious mean to you?

He was forced to stay on the defensive because leaving openings would mean death for him in a 2 VS 1 situation against opponents of this caliber. The fact that he did this well is a testament of his skill, but he would have lost had he decided to take a more offensive approach.

Same for the "ready to kill" thing. Silva and Zeno fighting without caring about each other's safety doesn't mean they can't defeat him one on one.

And for Silva, you are again talking about the past. But he also fought Chrollo in this past and survived.

 

[Nobody12]

I don't know how you can believe he was fighting two of the strongest Zoldycks and was not serious. What does being serious mean to you?

I don't know how you can ignore what I said:
Chrollo intended to meet all these conditions in order to steal Zeno's ability. He was hardly doing seriously. He was on the defensive because of the difficulties of fighting in 2vs 1 and at the same time, met the condition to steal their abilities. (He didn't use any offensive ability, he used only the "fun fun cloath")
He wanted to paralyze Silva with the Benz knife and trap Zeno into the "fun fun cloth" in order to meet the condition and steal Zeno's ability. He didn't take them seriously (a little underestimated them and lost for this reason), also in a 2 vs 1.
He should have put Zeno's hand on his book and asked Zeno questions about his power to meet all his conditions to steal his power. It is ridiculous.
In the end, Chrollo understood that he couldn't steal their powers.

Also, Zeno understood and commented that Chrollo didn't use all his strength/abilities.
Why wouldn't you compare with his fight with Hisoka? Is it the same?
Chrollo with bookmark, 2 hands abilities, combined 5 abilities and preparation, abilities of Shalnark and Kortopi etc.
The truth is: Silva and Zeno couldn't kill a Chrollo (not in his full strength/all his offensive abilities, only Fun Fun Cloth), fighting in a 2 vs 1, without sacrificing Zeno

He was forced to stay on the defensive because leaving openings would mean death for him in a 2 VS 1 situation against opponents of this caliber. The fact that he did this well is a testament of his skill, but he would have lost had he decided to take a more offensive approach.

He was on the defensive also because he wanted to steal their abilities not only because of 2v1. The fact that he would have lost had he decided to take a more offensive approach is your speculation not supported by fact.
I am not saying that he would have killed both Zeno and Silva, but certainly, he would have done better if Chrollo was ready to kill them with offensive abilities ( because all his abilities in his book are unknown), killing one of them in a direct way.

Same for the "ready to kill" thing. Silva and Zeno fighting without caring about each other's safety doesn't mean they can't defeat him one on one.

They didn't say only that they didn't care about each other life:
-Zeno was sacrificing his life in order to let Silva kill him. I don't understand why you continue to ignore this fact.
-Zeno told Silva to cover him, and once he pins Chrollo down, kill Chrollo, also if it means to kill him as well.
-If Silva or Zeno could have killed Chrollo; they would have done without sacrifice. If Zeno was ready to die in order to kill Chrollo, it means that they weren't able to do it normally.
-Zeno was sacrificing his life in order to let Silva kill Chrollo? Why was Zeno suicidal for no reason if he could have defeated Chrollo?

And for Silva, you are again talking about the past. But he also fought Chrollo in this past and survived.

I'm not talking about the past:
Facts:
-Silva stated that Chrollo improved from their first fight
-Silva stated that he had difficulties killing only one member (and warned Killua) of the Ryodan in the past. There isn't anything in the manga that stated that he imporoved. It is all speculation
-Present Silva was unable to kill (not in his full strength/all his offensive abilities, only Fun Fun Cloth), fighting in a 2 vs 1, without sacrificing Zeno. This is the fact.