Discussion Devils Discussion Thread

[Franz]

Now that the demons have arrived what do you think will be the plot's developments?

 

[waldoputty]

there is a difference between devils and demons. devils generally the top sneaky slanderer(s). demons are a number of fallen angels, of which the devil(s) is the first one(s).

it appears the bad guy is the devil with unconventional power word magic and the one in asta's grimoire is also a devil with antimagic.
while the monster that was killed by the fwk may be a demon (strong but not smart) with powerful but conventional magic.

any japanese reader know whether devil or demon was used to describe the one in the grimoire, the current one in chapter 196 and 197, and the monster the fwk destroyed?

 

[HereNThere]

Went ahead and renamed this and made it the general thread to discuss Devils and what we know about them and whatever.

 

[Franz]

Honestly?

I think he's one of the ugliest villains I've ever seen.

His insertion is ridiculous, adds nothing to the story and is too easy to hate.

 

[Tavore]

Honestly?

I think he's one of the ugliest villains I've ever seen.

His insertion is ridiculous, adds nothing to the story and is too easy to hate.

He's a demon there's suppsoed to be ugly. His insertion is not ridiculous and of course he adds to the story. Just because you don't like this reveal doesn't make it bad.

 

[Franz]

He's a demon there's suppsoed to be ugly.

I don'think so

His insertion is not ridiculous and of course he adds to the story.

A villain appeared literally from nothing that trivializes history.

This means ridiculous.

 

[Brandish μ]

I find the devil meh and random atm, but will swallow enough of it if we're given sufficient and acceptable explanation.

There has always been something regarding Asta's grimoire/5 leaf clover + demons so it needs to all stack up; and if it does I'd be fine with this development.

The devil gives the humans and elves a common enemy. The author can write something straight forward under that premise, so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.

 

[HereNThere]

Design and magic is great, but he's lacking in personality. At least, it's very stock villain.

In terms of lore, he brings a lot of possibilities.

We know devils don't have their own grimoire and need the highest level grimoire to get their own.

They have incredibly large mana pools with strong, seemingly implausible magic. Regenerative abilities seem to be fairly common outside of Asta's demon.

Darkness magic appears to have a unique relationship with them. I'm not calling it a weakness yet though.

They reside in a weird dimension with organisns that feed life and mana.

 

[Franz]

The devil gives the humans and elves a common enemy. The author can write something straight forward under that premise, so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.

I see only negative aspects .... then I hope the author does not keep the elves in the story, ok solved the problem then rest in peace.

sign and magic is great, but he's lacking in personality. At least, it's very stock villain.

And I believe it, is badly introduced

 

[Tragicdeath]

Before we dig in to the topic we need to distinguish the difference between fiend, demon, devil and yugoloths since these are the 4 basic entities that live in the underworld. Fiend is a generic term for the denizens of the lower planes: The Nine Hells, Gehenna, Hades, Carceri, and The Abyss. This term covers Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths. Demons are Chaotic Evil in alignment. They primarily inhabit Carceri and the Abyss. They act almost entirely on whim and are very cruel and destructive. Devils are Lawful Evil in alignment and typically inhabit The Nine Hells. As their Lawful nature would indicate, they love making Faustian deals and are very true to the letter of their agreements, but almost never the spirit of them. Yugoloths are a rarely discussed Neutral Evil sort of Fiend that inhabit Gehenna and Hades. They just kinda do evil because that's what they do.

So from what I see the one they are facing is a powerful demon hence he is a destructive type of entity. The one who's in Asta's grimoire is a devil hence hes lawful and make faustian deals. Remember he asked Asta to let him control his body to fully relinguish its true power. And the 1st ME killed a demon hence that was also a destructive type of entity. Now I presume Nero is a yugoloth because she seems a neutral demon.

Now this 1st ME seems mystical IMO hence Nero whom I think a fiend calls him the prince. Which I presume hes also a fiend. But on the contrary why he uses light magic. So I presume 1st ME is kinda like a Nephalem whos so strong that has light and dark magic. So basically Nephalem are stronger than demons and angels which I think depicts the 1st ME.

Now heres the interesting part whats the relation between Asta, 1st ME and Nero. My gist is Asta whom they believe born with anomally who doesnt have any trace of magic is balony. Asta might be a very powerful entity that might be stronger than a Nephalem which made the 1st ME made an agreement to the Devil God through a grand grimoire like that Nero was able to pulled off saving 1st ME by sealing 1st ME. Again I will say it over and over again Asta is the most powerful character but his power is unlocked.

 

[Franz]

He managed to beat Kaguya in the list of the most painful and unlikely villains in a comic book.

Congratulations.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

I mean I was kind of like....WELL! This is damn convenient! When he showed up but now I like how it explains and further the story.

My issue is that I have a manga hierarchy. If your work is not One Piece or Berserk in terms of story and possibly art, then you belong in purely entertainment tier. Similar to movies that are great like Our Idiot Brother and then...you have stuff like John Wick which is just carnage...not too much of a story. Not that it is a bad movie, it just didn't have a deep narrative. Black Clover is in this group for me and I take it like that. I can judge it harshly and end up making myself dislike the work or I can just be entertained every week...FOR FREE! How cool is that?

So when the Devil appeared, I was like damn okay...he's ugly...oh shit he is OP AF! At the back of my mind, I was starting to be that critic like I did back when I first started Black Clover, calling it a ripoff of so many shonens and such. But guys let's take a step back, we all enjoy this manga, we all think the mangaka is entertaining us, lets let him keep doing that without being too critical. I mean the devil barely got introduced. Gotta give him some time to be as evil as the way he looks (so far he isn't that evil yet...I mean come on, anyone know who Doflamingo is? Lol. That is evil) and speaking of his looks, I do like the design. Actually I think I like it a lot lol.

 

[Franz]

Leaving aside that it is a debatable coup de scene already of his (but we don't enter in the detail) it is simply wrongly inserted.

There is no hype, there is no consistency with the previous chapters. In other words, re-read chapter 191: create a group of 10 enemies to fight our heroes, ok. You give him a perfect location to fight, ok. Separate the heroes and tackle the classic situation at Saint Seiya "beat the enemies and get to the boss", perfect.

And then go ahead, don't change everything at the last second.

What did we get? Five chapters of clashes in bits and pieces of which you do not understand the outcome since most if not all, are unfinished and then bum a new enemy arrives?

The demon then is a comfortable choice.

That is, did it really need to be put as an instigator? Couldn't they simply be humans and just behind it all, driven by the thirst for power and hatred towards the different?

It would have been much more interesting, he would have really questioned Asta and the others and maybe even Noelle (discovering that your magic power comes from such an ignoble act certainly shouldn't be pleasant) would probably have also put the first emperor in a new light magical, perhaps forced to betray friends and sister because of force majeure.

The demons could also come into play in another way, of the kind that Licht made a pact with them in revenge by unleashing an incredible evil, of which the indirect guilt was of humans.

But no, evil demon behind it all, so humans can be with a clear conscience.


A wasted opportunity.

 

[Franz]

The problem of the demon is not so much in the character itself or in the fact that he is behind everything.

But in the fact that both the manga and the characters start from the premise that, since he is behind everything, then humans are no longer guilty, which is a wrong concept.

 

[Brandish μ]

The devil gives the humans and elves a common enemy. The author can write something straight forward under that premise, so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.

I don't believe this was achieved during the battle since it was too much too quickly for me. The aftermath seems to bring up new problems (ie Asta's demon) but we'll have to see if that becomes exciting. Because, now the Licht mystery/anticipation is over, something antagonistic needs to sustain the story.

But in the fact that both the manga and the characters start from the premise that, since he is behind everything, then humans are no longer guilty, which is a wrong concept.

I never liked the concept of all humans being 'guilty'. I can understand it, but it's wrong, because at best it's a group of humans. There was understandable hate from the elves, but it was wrong.

 

[Franz]

I never liked the concept of all humans being 'guilty'. I can understand it, but it's wrong, because at best it's a group of humans. There was understandable hate from the elves, but it was wrong.

This is true, but the fact remains that if before the elves hated humans, I don't see how the demon's presence should cancel this.

Okay, the devil gave the idea, but the massacre humans still did it for profit. It is not that if I give the gun to a bloodthirsty madman and advise him to make a massacre, if this makes him the fault he must only fall back on me eh ...

 

[PeanutButterJelly]

I find the devil meh and random atm, but will swallow enough of it if we're given sufficient and acceptable explanation.

There has always been something regarding Asta's grimoire/5 leaf clover + demons so it needs to all stack up; and if it does I'd be fine with this development.

The devil gives the humans and elves a common enemy. The author can write something straight forward under that premise, so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.

Well,demons were mentioned in chapter,so they have been present in the story from chapter 1.

I for one love their design, like they're made of shadows and just screams evil.

 

[Franz]

Well,demons were mentioned in chapter,so they have been present in the story from chapter 1.

Yes, but their presence in history has been badly managed.

If the author really wanted to prepare something big about them, he had to introduce them better, perhaps with some hints from the characters.

The power of Asta is the maximum example of this mismanagement.

I mean, did the characters really realize this just because they were clearly told?

 

[PeanutButterJelly]

Yes, but their presence in history has been badly managed.

If the author really wanted to prepare something big about them, he had to introduce them better, perhaps with some hints from the characters.

The power of Asta is the maximum example of this mismanagement.

I mean, did the characters really realize this just because they were clearly told?

Let's not search for plothole in the story, like, Asta's arms were cursed? Vanessa goes to the WQ, but Gordon doesn't go to his family ( rather searches books with Gauche, even tho his family are experts on that matter) , Yami didn't go to Charlotte to help Asta and now that curses got really prominent Vanessa doesn't go to the WQ even tho Finral could have teleported her there asap?

We could have gotten more hints for the devils,sure, but guess that was because they were treated as more of myth than an immediate threat?


Hope devils don't become the main antagonist of each arc.

 

[animeangryfan4]

Devils. It seems they are becoming more relevant. I wish that the Anti-Magic Devil is not as evil as the others. But soemthing tells me he wants to take all powers for himself, and destroy the current Devil system.

But we know nothing of Devils. Just so far they seem to be Evil incarnate, and what they do is cuase thier nature. Hopefully it wont be so Black And White. Meaning there is a deeper conenction there. Maybe its connected to negative mana