Discussion Gon & Killua vs Kastro

[AvatarReiko]

The duo have come along way since HA and doing a re-watch of the series got me curious how they would perform against Castro if they fought him.

Round 1: Both 1v1 him
Round 2: They 2v1

Let's say that they have not figured out his "double" trick.

 

[Copy Panda]

That's quite an interesting match up. Personally, I've never properly understood how Doppelganger works (even though it's like top 5 coolest nen) - I just don't understand how the clones presence was hidden to and from everyone. Depending on that the yung duo may or may not stand a chance against Kastro.

 

[Demonspeed]

Kastro loses both matches.

That's quite an interesting match up. Personally, I've never properly understood how Doppelganger works (even though it's like top 5 coolest nen) - I just don't understand how the clones presence was hidden to and from everyone. Depending on that the yung duo may or may not stand a chance against Kastro.

It was hidden because he was only making it appear for his attacks. His clothes played a role too.

 

[Copy Panda]

My initial reaction too was 'oh he loses both, hard', but it did take Hisoka two limbs to figure it out. Even if he was clowning around, in a zero information situation, maybe not Killua, but he could be able to trick Gon?

 

[Demonspeed]

As you said Hisoka playing around makes things a bit different. But with Kastro's feats and Gon and Killua's growth. I don't see how they could be beaten, they have more combat experience than before, are used to use Gyo by now, have fitting Nen abilities etc.

I don't think it would be particularly hard for them to beat him as they are now. Gon's amount of raw power is no joke, definitely above Kastro's and they are both Enhancers.

If Kastro needs his ability to be hidden to win, then he isn't that great of a fighter to begin with.

 

[duerlin]

I remember Kastro was also not that serious in his fight with Hisoka, wasn't his first attack after showing his doppleganger skill just a punch? I think he wanted to show off and was confident he would win easy.
In a fight for real, one would use their trump card to win or at least to cause a serious damage to their opponent. I don't think Gon or Killua, without knowing Kastro's clone ability, would manage to avoid Kastro's strike or survive it with 100% of their battle prowess.

 

[Demonspeed]

I remember Kastro was also not that serious in his fight with Hisoka, wasn't his first attack after showing his doppleganger skill just a punch? I think he wanted to show off and was confident he would win easy.
In a fight for real, one would use their trump card to win or at least to cause a serious damage to their opponent. I don't think Gon or Killua, without knowing Kastro's clone ability, would manage to avoid Kastro's strike or survive it with 100% of their battle prowess.

He held back but his attack was serious, he wanted to scare/impress Hisoka. Before attacking, he said he had not fought seriously in all his previous fights then attacked with his arm imbued with Aura. To attack at full power he needs to build up strength for the Tiger Bite Fist/True Tiger Bite Fist first. Hisoka sacrificed his arm, but the others wouldn't be the same. They are also much better than before and not arrogant like Hisoka. Gon has definitely more raw power than Kastro, who wasted a lot of his talent in Doppelganger and they fought stronger people. Gon and Killua can react to attacks of people like Knuckle and Shoot.

 

[Copy Panda]

Ahh.. What a shame though.. Doppelganger was such a cool ability

 

[Demonspeed]

Ahh.. What a shame though.. Doppelganger was such a cool ability

Well, Hanzo and Morau are still alive.

 

[Copy Panda]

Well, Hanzo and Morau are still alive.

Its not quite the same

 

[howdydodah]

As you said Hisoka playing around makes things a bit different. But with Kastro's feats and Gon and Killua's growth. I don't see how they could be beaten, they have more combat experience than before, are used to use Gyo by now, have fitting Nen abilities etc.

I don't think it would be particularly hard for them to beat him as they are now. Gon's amount of raw power is no joke, definitely above Kastro's and they are both Enhancers.

If Kastro needs his ability to be hidden to win, then he isn't that great of a fighter to begin with.

I must respectfully and yet strongly disagree on this one.

Nen users especially thrive on hiding their abilities. Just by following Hisoka(the more outspoken character), we see that even though he likes to strut around bare naked even with his nen, he still has tricks up his sleeve. The Ryodan's might not shy away from hiding their nen power levels, but their skills are especially unknown, even to their own.

With that said, Kastro is clearly one of the higher level nen users in which I don't think Gon and Killua are there yet. It took Hisoka 2 limbs to produce an assumption, an "assumption", to how Kastro's abilities work. If he guessed it wrong, Hisoka would've died that night. That means 2 things:
Kastro has high enough power level to damage and possibly kill Hisoka.
Kastro has a skill level that may not have been considered master, yet(give it a few more years), but it should be considered lethal to unprepared fighters.

Conclusion: In real nen battles, Kastro would've killed Hisoka right then and there. So Hisoka's win, was mainly attributed to the history between the two and the circumstances they were both uniquely tied to. So we could say, Hisoka might have been just playing, but in his mind that was the only way he could have figured it out. It was a G R E A T gamble, in which paid off nicely. Kastro never wanted to kill Hisoka, he wanted to humiliate him. That's what Hisoka was going for, if they never had that personal inclination, then the fight would've ended completely different. And I for one, am willing to bet Kastro would've come out the victor. Yes, hisoka overall was the better fighter and still always will be, but he's not perfect, one of these days he's antiques would cost him(Chrollo). But it doesn't mean Kastro, without those special circumstances would've lost.

Okay, I realize I've shot myself in the foot by saying if they hadn't known each other, yadda yadda.. Since it was Hisoka who inspired the doppleganger ability in the first place. But this is not Hisoka vs Kastro, and this is an imaginary fight between that level Kastro and current level Gon and Killua, in which I would really wager that they would lose indefinitely.

Here's my analysis on Kastro as a nen user:
Physical prowess on par with Hisoka maybe stronger(Enhancer: How else would Hisoka win against Tiger Claw)
Nen prowess on par with Hisoka maybe stronger(Enhancer: again)
Fighting IQ below Hisoka, but just a bit.(Hisoka thought Kastro as one of his edibles, up until he messed up his own potential)

All in all Hisoka doesn't take "STRONGER" opponents, he takes "SMARTER" opponents. If he did, he would've challenged Uvon right then and there.
He wants the mental challenge, and for him to consider Kastro, just goes to show how capable Kastro really is, even if he jobbed just to make Togashi's point.(Togashi likes to throw away really strong characters just to make a point, pfft)

 

[Demonspeed]

I must respectfully and yet strongly disagree on this one.

Nen users especially thrive on hiding their abilities. Just by following Hisoka(the more outspoken character), we see that even though he likes to strut around bare naked even with his nen, he still has tricks up his sleeve. The Ryodan's might not shy away from hiding their nen power levels, but their skills are especially unknown, even to their own.

With that said, Kastro is clearly one of the higher level nen users in which I don't think Gon and Killua are there yet. It took Hisoka 2 limbs to produce an assumption, an "assumption", to how Kastro's abilities work. If he guessed it wrong, Hisoka would've died that night. That means 2 things:
Kastro has high enough power level to damage and possibly kill Hisoka.
Kastro has a skill level that may not have been considered master, yet(give it a few more years), but it should be considered lethal to unprepared fighters.

Conclusion: In real nen battles, Kastro would've killed Hisoka right then and there. So Hisoka's win, was mainly attributed to the history between the two and the circumstances they were both uniquely tied to. So we could say, Hisoka might have been just playing, but in his mind that was the only way he could have figured it out. It was a G R E A T gamble, in which paid off nicely. Kastro never wanted to kill Hisoka, he wanted to humiliate him. That's what Hisoka was going for, if they never had that personal inclination, then the fight would've ended completely different. And I for one, am willing to bet Kastro would've come out the victor. Yes, hisoka overall was the better fighter and still always will be, but he's not perfect, one of these days he's antiques would cost him(Chrollo). But it doesn't mean Kastro, without those special circumstances would've lost.

Okay, I realize I've shot myself in the foot by saying if they hadn't known each other, yadda yadda.. Since it was Hisoka who inspired the doppleganger ability in the first place. But this is not Hisoka vs Kastro, and this is an imaginary fight between that level Kastro and current level Gon and Killua, in which I would really wager that they would lose indefinitely.

Here's my analysis on Kastro as a nen user:
Physical prowess on par with Hisoka maybe stronger(Enhancer: How else would Hisoka win against Tiger Claw)
Nen prowess on par with Hisoka maybe stronger(Enhancer: again)
Fighting IQ below Hisoka, but just a bit.(Hisoka thought Kastro as one of his edibles, up until he messed up his own potential)

All in all Hisoka doesn't take "STRONGER" opponents, he takes "SMARTER" opponents. If he did, he would've challenged Uvon right then and there.
He wants the mental challenge, and for him to consider Kastro, just goes to show how capable Kastro really is, even if he jobbed just to make Togashi's point.(Togashi likes to throw away really strong characters just to make a point, pfft)

Kastro is one of the best Nen users? What makes you say that? Hisoka likes to play around and he gave his arm but it doesn't mean it was the only way to deal with this. Hisoka didn't even seriously attack like against Gon, we know how his Bungee Gum. Doppelganger also affects the rest of Kastro's Nen skills since he is using too much aura because the Hatsu isn't compatible with him. Kastro is certainly not at the level of people like Knuckle, Shoot etc.

Hisoka's main target was Chrollo, the strongest Spider, Uvo and the others were not his priorities. He said himself that he lost interest in Kastro because he wasted his talent with that unfitting Hatsu.

 

[howdydodah]

Kastro is one of the best Nen users? What makes you say that? .

I did not specifically say one of the best, but a "higher" level nen user. He had 2 distinct hatsus(which I reread to get a good grip of his mastery), in which he both mastered, the Tiger Claw and the Doppleganger. 1 Simple enhancement hatsu and one extremely difficult conjuration/manipulation hatsu.

In the manga it stated that he "mastered" Doppleganger, meaning there's no significant overhead in summoning the double and no quality losses. The only problem is, his natural ability's lack of efficiency to handle 2 severely different nen techniques all the while struggling to manage 2 of himself. In short, he over exerted himself. That over exertion taxed his brain functions to a point where another master could successfully discern a gap in performance. IMO he could overcome this with more years of training, but since it was just 2, TWO, years of mastering a technique opposite his natural ability, he was doomed to fail against high level opponents from the beginning. Still, it was an awesome feat nonetheless.

So yes. He is a high level nen user. And no, he wasn't the wisest nen user. The fight was too personal, he was too involved, and he was being sloppy.
So again. He could've won that fight if he just cut Hisoka's throat from the get go. But he didn't. Not Gon, nor Killua could ever pull that kind of stunt off.

Also, Togashi likes to put stakes in his matches whenever he pits 2 equally good fighters. For hisoka he had to sacrifice his arms, for the Zaoldyecks their lives against Chrollo, for Kurapica his constant taking of damage against Uvo to put him at ease. Great way of making a fight interesting.

 

[Demonspeed]

I did not specifically say one of the best, but a "higher" level nen user. He had 2 distinct hatsus(which I reread to get a good grip of his mastery), in which he both mastered, the Tiger Claw and the Doppleganger. 1 Simple enhancement hatsu and one extremely difficult conjuration/manipulation hatsu.

In the manga it stated that he "mastered" Doppleganger, meaning there's no significant overhead in summoning the double and no quality losses. The only problem is, his natural ability's lack of efficiency to handle 2 severely different nen techniques all the while struggling to manage 2 of himself. In short, he over exerted himself. That over exertion taxed his brain functions to a point where another master could successfully discern a gap in performance. IMO he could overcome this with more years of training, but since it was just 2, TWO, years of mastering a technique opposite his natural ability, he was doomed to fail against high level opponents from the beginning. Still, it was an awesome feat nonetheless.

He mastered it as in he managed to develop the technique, but for an Enhancer like him, it took too much effort and it applies when he is fighting. So in the end, it was not great for him. It's the same for his Tiger Bite Fist, he could use it, but not use it to its full potential, because of what he did with Doppelganger, he should have focused on this technique alone, he wasted resources. It's been said in the manga that not focusing on your talents is not benefitial, that's not something you can overcome. Kastro was the perfect example of this.

So yes. He is a high level nen user. And no, he wasn't the wisest nen user. The fight was too personal, he was too involved, and he was being sloppy.
So again. He could've won that fight if he just cut Hisoka's throat from the get go. But he didn't. Not Gon, nor Killua could ever pull that kind of stunt off.

Also, Togashi likes to put stakes in his matches whenever he pits 2 equally good fighters. For hisoka he had to sacrifice his arms, for the Zaoldyecks their lives against Chrollo, for Kurapica his constant taking of damage against Uvo to put him at ease. Great way of making a fight interesting.

High level compared to who? After everyone we have seen? With unfitting abilities like this he can't compare to good Nen users with suitable abilities? The Troupe? No, Knuckle and Shoot? Biscuit etc? No way. Gon in GI had more raw power than Razor, Genthru, he has enough power to kill Morau with his punch, he is much better at using Nen than he was back then, Killua as well. I mentioned Gon and Killua's feats in the CA arc already. What does Kastro have that make him so impressive? You are acting as if you need to take a free hit to deal with Kastro, that's not the case at all, Hisoka did it. But a fighter doesn't have to let him do as he pleases, Kastro could tell clearly that Hisoka wasn't serious.

Kastro is the personification of wasted potential, what you should not do if you want to become a good Nen user.

 

[howdydodah]

Spoiler

https://l.mangatown.com/store/manga...ea48f768f00e1f699644878285a468&ttl=1537200000

In that image, Machi explains that Hisoka was pretending to not use all his strength. Also in the previous images, Hisoka exclaimed that the Doppleganger was very taxing and yet under normal circumstances, Kastro was able to pull it off perfectly. Hisoka proceeded then to confuse Kastro with his tricks and then the famous arm cut happened.So in fact, Kastro was able to efficiently use his Doppleganger at the maximum rate possible for his current skill. The only reason he lost, as I stated earlier, was that he was pschology beaten by Hisoka. It was too personal for him. This diminishes his combat level to a certain degree, yes, but never his higher nen user level status, and almost always will only be uniquely applicable to hisoka. So therefore, Hisoka had to use dirty tricks to get the win. Fighting 2 Kastro's would definitely be a hard challenge for Hisoka since he is a transmuter, and so his only way of countering the technique is imbalancing Kastro's mentality, in which he successfully did. He only pretended to not be as serious, because that was part of his game plan. So Hisoka was serious from the beginning, he just needed to understand Kastro's ability first. Kastro showed he was competent with his nen, but he was severely lacking in the combat IQ department. Something in which Hisoka has in spades.

So in conclusion. Kastro still is a high level nen user for accomplishing the Doppleganger and maintaining it with perfect efficiency under normal circumstances. Even with Tiger Claw/Bite technique activated for both him and his double. Also that his weak mentality was only uniquely applicable to facing Hisoka. Under normal circumstances, for example, fighting both Gon and Killua, Kastro would have been more level headed. Gon might be able to pull off another Hisoka, but it's slim, kind of dim. Killua couldn't. Currently, neither Gon nor Killua could take a high mid level nen combatant in both Knuckle and Whatshisname. Kastro could have easily been better than both.

Also, important to note, that Machi thought that the match would have ended sooner, and that Hisoka had to get his show on. However, I think what she meant was that the moment Kastro cut his arm, was the moment Kastro lost, because his bungee gum was already on him. She also stated that normally, the bungee gum wouldn't have been as effective if Kastro used his ren or maybe gyo, but Hisoka already addressed that by confusing him.

To address the wasted potential theory, let's look at it this way.
Kastro's Tiger Bite/Claw whatever, was already efficient enough that could seriously hurt Hisoka. He doesn't need to focus on that any more. He instead gained another ability, which was clearly in a straight up fight, was a big advantage. Kastro may have been stuck with his enhancement type training, but he was already strong enough to deal a finishing blow in one swipe. Like I said, with his double, he can cut Hisokas neck on the get go, but personally he just chose not to atm. And it would have been much more effective on somebody else as well. It's a neat trick, which he lost the advantage of, because he was trying to humiliate Hisoka first. The only real draw back is how he needed a lot of concentration, in which he would lose in the long run, because his enemies would eventually figure it out. But, if it's not Hisoka, he can just kill them right away. Right?

 

[duerlin]

Like a said, in a fight where both sides intend to fight with their lives on the stakes, the first use of Kastro's Doppleganger would aim for Killua or Gon's life.
Probably, the most effective use of Kastro's ability is to trigger it during a exchange of hits. In my opinion he would be able to trick Gon. Also, Gon's fighting style is more reactive than proactive.
Killua, on the other hand, tends to plan every move from the start, and would try to finish the fight in the first hit. In my opinion, he can win over Kastro.