Discussion Griffith: defending an antihero

[hirou]

This started as a reply to "What will be the ending of Berserk?", but I think it deserves a separate topic.

Am I the only one, who thinks that Griffith have almost/already lost his status as the antagonist? Seriously, he sacrificed about a hundred men, while saving thousands from Kushan Invasion and recreating (supposedly) ideal kingdom. Having transformed into Femto, Griffith was said to bring "either salvation or suffering" to people, and up to now he's bringing salvation.

Note, that he wasn't directly involved in any of the disasters that has struck the country. Apostles like Snake Baron and Count are/were humans, so their crimes are caused by human nature, not by God's Hand directly (and Femto probably wasn't even involved in their creation). "Ganishuka Hell Explosion" was caused by Emperor himself and by Skull Knight's strike, which Femto perfectly understandably redirected to save himself.

Of course, one may say, that everything is going according to the bidding of the Idea, and God's Hand merely serve the Idea, therefore, serving the Great Evil. But think about it for a while, the Idea was born to support people desire to explain the suffering, not to prolong the suffering forever. What if Griffith's mission in the Grand Plan is to make people believe in the eternal end of suffering, to believe in the true Golden Age? If Griffith establish some kind of a great and just empire (where humans and Apostles live together in peace; I'm only half-joking), if enough people will support his dream, it may cause a great decrease in the Idea of Evil's power. I doubt the Idea may be killed completely, but it's really not necessary... By the way, in the world mixed with ethereal planes, as it is now, the Killing of Idea is much more probable...

I can't give really good prediction on the ending of Berserk, but I can imagine a situation, where Guts will forgive Griffith. For example, if Griffith in the end sacrifice his entire existence for the well-being of his kingdom=his dream (it's just one variant, which is probably vurnerable to criticism).

Discuss and forgive my possible mistakes.

 

[benelori]

This started as a reply to "What will be the ending of Berserk?", but I think it deserves a separate topic.

Am I the only one, who thinks that Griffith have almost/already lost his status as the antagonist? Seriously, he sacrificed about a hundred men, while saving thousands from Kushan Invasion and recreating (supposedly) ideal kingdom. Having transformed into Femto, Griffith was said to bring "either salvation or suffering" to people, and up to now he's bringing salvation.

Note, that he wasn't directly involved in any of the disasters that has struck the country. Apostles like Snake Baron and Count are/were humans, so their crimes are caused by human nature, not by God's Hand directly (and Femto probably wasn't even involved in their creation). "Ganishuka Hell Explosion" was caused by Emperor himself and by Skull Knight's strike, which Femto perfectly understandably redirected to save himself.

Of course, one may say, that everything is going according to the bidding of the Idea, and God's Hand merely serve the Idea, therefore, serving the Great Evil. But think about it for a while, the Idea was born to support people desire to explain the suffering, not to prolong the suffering forever. What if Griffith's mission in the Grand Plan is to make people believe in the eternal end of suffering, to believe in the true Golden Age? If Griffith establish some kind of a great and just empire (where humans and Apostles live together in peace; I'm only half-joking), if enough people will support his dream, it may cause a great decrease in the Idea of Evil's power. I doubt the Idea may be killed completely, but it's really not necessary... By the way, in the world mixed with ethereal planes, as it is now, the Killing of Idea is much more probable...

I can't give really good prediction on the ending of Berserk, but I can imagine a situation, where Guts will forgive Griffith. For example, if Griffith in the end sacrifice his entire existence for the well-being of his kingdom=his dream (it's just one variant, which is probably vurnerable to criticism).

Discuss and forgive my possible mistakes.

I think that there is a prophecy that describes that the hawk that will bring light will guide the world into the real darkness...so I think the overall message of this cannot be ignored

Judging from these latest events it is really questionable, as you pointed out as well, that Griffith is the antagonist...but in the end creating this new world where Apostles and humans live together, makes it possible for the other god hands to appear and wreak havoc...so even if Griffith did save thousands, it was just for building his own country as he would say it...

About the Idea...I'm not really comfortable about talking about this, because IIRC that chapter about what is the Idea, what is hell or heaven were taken out from the official releases...but let's consider it canon...human suffering will never end, that's why the Idea will never be defeated so to say...the only way to end the suffering of humanity is to wipe it out, so that way the Idea, the ones that serve the Idea(Apostles, God Hands) would be destroyed as well...but that somehow interferes with the notion of having a country...

Here's the way I see Griffith's plan...he creates the dreamworld, and human's lives rise to unheard levels of greatness...but the Apostles need human flesh, so slowly, but surely the world will end up as place similar to let's say...a constant Eclipse...as servant of the Idea, Griffith easily plunges humanity into chaos, because that strengthens the Idea, therefore it strengthens their power...let's not forget that other God Hands are present as well, so even if their concrete involvement is unsure, it can't be something good...the trick behind this is that the people will still follow Griffith, recognizing him as their leader as their god and if they surrender to despair, then the power of the God Hands and the Idea will be stronger, so it's a win win situation...

What's to be done...this entire situation is caused by the overlap of the dimensions, so the overall objective is to separate the dimensions completely...so this way the despair of the humanity can still feed the Idea, however the God Hands or apostles will never have the power to manifest themselves again...the sad part is that this means that elves and other "supernatural" beings will also remain unnoticed and their existence forgotten...because I think that in order to succeed, not only the realm of the dead, or ethereal realm(?...the one with god hands and idea) needs to be separated, but the Spirit Realm as well...
I think that Skull Knight will realize his mistake, because I think he didn't foresee that he will be the one triggering the change, so his task as collector of Behelits will continue and in the end he will have a great influence in separating the dimensions...

PS: I don't really know if I was on topic, these are just my views about Berserk and its possible ending...but as the convo goes on things might be a bit clearer for me, and I will post again, cuz it's a great thread

 

[102jayday]

I think that when Griffith is defeated (if) he will turn good while dying. He will prob say to Gut's that he is happy to see his true friend again and that he was the only one he considered his equal. Guts always thought that griffith didn't place him as a friend so he wanted to become his equal so he could become his true friend, but in griffith's mind Gut's was already his equal.
Griffith will have a slow epic death that will be kinda peaceful. I can't see him dying and going NOOOOO! curse you!! This cannot be!!! dead....silences...Gut's stares...then walks off.

Gawd I cannot wait till this day!

 

[llamapie]

This started as a reply to "What will be the ending of Berserk?", but I think it deserves a separate topic.

Am I the only one, who thinks that Griffith have almost/already lost his status as the antagonist? Seriously, he sacrificed about a hundred men, while saving thousands from Kushan Invasion and recreating (supposedly) ideal kingdom. Having transformed into Femto, Griffith was said to bring "either salvation or suffering" to people, and up to now he's bringing salvation.

Note, that he wasn't directly involved in any of the disasters that has struck the country. Apostles like Snake Baron and Count are/were humans, so their crimes are caused by human nature, not by God's Hand directly (and Femto probably wasn't even involved in their creation). "Ganishuka Hell Explosion" was caused by Emperor himself and by Skull Knight's strike, which Femto perfectly understandably redirected to save himself.

Of course, one may say, that everything is going according to the bidding of the Idea, and God's Hand merely serve the Idea, therefore, serving the Great Evil. But think about it for a while, the Idea was born to support people desire to explain the suffering, not to prolong the suffering forever. What if Griffith's mission in the Grand Plan is to make people believe in the eternal end of suffering, to believe in the true Golden Age? If Griffith establish some kind of a great and just empire (where humans and Apostles live together in peace; I'm only half-joking), if enough people will support his dream, it may cause a great decrease in the Idea of Evil's power. I doubt the Idea may be killed completely, but it's really not necessary... By the way, in the world mixed with ethereal planes, as it is now, the Killing of Idea is much more probable...

I can't give really good prediction on the ending of Berserk, but I can imagine a situation, where Guts will forgive Griffith. For example, if Griffith in the end sacrifice his entire existence for the well-being of his kingdom=his dream (it's just one variant, which is probably vurnerable to criticism).

Discuss and forgive my possible mistakes.

Where I see where you're coming from you have to realize the story element to what Griffith is doing is that of the anti-christ. Thats to say true evil is deceptive. He appears as pure good but his intentions are far from it. We have yet to see whats inside his city.

But ya I haven't seen what he's doing as "good" at all. He has fulfilled his human dream but something much more sinister is occurring. Miura is an excellent story teller. The Golden Age gave us the history between him and Guts and it really made it sting more when he betrayed all the people that looked up to him. He would do it again.

Beyond that you have to look at him and Guts as yin/yang.

Guts is dark and most importantly human. He comes off as "evil" to most people but his intentions are all pure. His inner soul is that of a demon as we've been seeing as well.

Griffith is shown as vibrant and good, but he is far from it, being a demon god. He uses deception to gain his followers, at least now, and he is the definition of evil. If you follow anything religious this much should be obvious. Miura is using that element on purpose because it is a truly frightening concept.

 

[Forever Rain]

Well I'm going to be short about it but I did read your whole post. The reason why I think he's still an antagonist and not and never will be an anithero is because his character never changed. Sure he is saving thousand of people but he saved hundreds of people before and still didn't hesitate sacrifice his friends and rape Casca. Griffith theme is that he will do anything to achieve his goals. Become a prostitute, save people, bow down to kings, kill kings, kill friends, kill enemies etc etc etc.

You thinking he's an antihero seems to make you another person under the effect of his charisma to me. Despite all he's done I'm pretty sure if there was a situation where Griffith could become a ruler of a nation faster through killing all those people he saved, I'm sure he wouldn't hesitate to do it.

 

[llamapie]

Well I'm going to be short about it but I did read your whole post. The reason why I think he's still an antagonist and not and never will be an anithero is because his character never changed. Sure he is saving thousand of people but he saved hundreds of people before and still didn't hesitate sacrifice his friends and rape Casca. Griffith theme is that he will do anything to achieve his goals. Become a prostitute, save people, bow down to kings, kill kings, kill friends, kill enemies etc etc etc.

You thinking he's an antihero seems to make you another person under the effect of his charisma to me. Despite all he's done I'm pretty sure if there was a situation where Griffith could become a ruler of a nation faster through killing all those people he saved, I'm sure he wouldn't hesitate to do it.

Haha ya it really makes you appreciate how good a story teller Miura is by having the character fool the reader so well. Genius.

 

[benelori]

@Forever Rain...good stuff there...I especially liked the fact that the character hasn't changed one bit...and I think it is true...because I have no doubt whatsoever that even if he saved thousands in that battle and saved humanity from Ganishka, he would show no hesitation to sacrifice all those people as he did with the Hawks

 

[lordoffantasy]

no, he is the antagonist still. all of his desires are hollow and empty. as we see with the castle he made, it was without real essence, even as glorious as it appeared. now he has revived the myths of old into the world. more than likely, i think, he will learn that there may be beings strong enough to ruin his dream.

 

[Franckie]

An anti-hero is someone who often commits evil deeds to a good end. Where was Griffith's noble ambition when he sacrificed the former Band of the Hawk for his own sake? Where was Griffith's noble ambition when he raped Casca while having Guts stare at them the entire time? Where was Griffith's noble ambition when he demanded the Count sacrifice his own daughter? Where was Griffith's noble ambition when he had Schierke's master killed?

Griffith is not an anti-hero. He is a despot and his actions since the beginning of the manga only serve to bring him one step closer to accomplishing his goals. Especially Griffith's actions post-Eclipse.

Griffith also has not lost his role as Berserk's chief antagonist. Right now he and Guts are focused on differentiating matters, but those two are about to butt heads here soon. Remember how Guts still has a few scores to settle with Griffith and the rest of the Godhand? Remember how Griffith had Schierke's master killed? Remember how Elfland was stated to have a lot of witches and other similar entities living with the elves? 2 + 2 = Griffith setting his eyes on Elfland next since the community contains people who are an actual threat to him.

 

[Roflkopt3r]

About Gattsu and possible salvation of Griffith: It was pretty cool how Gattsu, when Griffith came back to earth, said "And for one moment... I forgot to kill him. And that is what ails me!" It is all open how it will become. Gattsu isn't the raging Berserker anymore he once was. But whether or not his painful past will win control once more when he comes to see Griffith is totally open imo.

It actually might all come out to an all out tragedy in the end. Griffith beeing an actual hero to the people for example, and Gattsu still killing him. It will be very interesting

I believe a lot about Griffith's character lies in the start of Volume 10 and during his eclipse transformation, obviously: http://i40.mangareader.net/berserk/10/berserk-1556671.jpg

 

[absolute Zero]

I see it as griffth still being a evil son of a gun that deserves to be wiped out of existence.Why? Because of what he did to caska and his whole stupid ambition to become a king.You could draw parallels with the Christian religion too.

 

[Demonspeed]

I just caught up with Berserk yesterday and I was going to create a thread like that.I know Guts will never forget him for what he did to Casca and he is right but since his reincarnation,he just tried fulfill his dream,he didn't try to destroy the world or something like that,I can't really consider him like a villain.Now that he has his kingdom I wonder what he will do.

 

[jakensama]

Griffith cares only for himself...his dream. He is selfishness incarnate, so I can't see him as good. Now his goals may as a side effect, help others in some way, however everything is about achieving what he wants. Also Guts will never forgive him. He raped and mentally broke Caska, who loved and idolized Griffith more than anyone, right in front of him.