Rachel could have simply used an alias of a person she had heard of. No reason to believe she was trying to emulate a female. She could be inspired by a male all the same. The only female we know she aspired to be like is Arlen.
I know the legend but I don't think it matters. This is a fictional universe with its own stories.
She made a beautiful female avatar and chose the name Icarus. No one found the name strange or anything. Rachel wants to be a heroine. It's strange to believe that she would pick a male name considering her personality.
I don't think she even said that she wanted to become like Arlen. Just that she wants to be the one to fulfill what is supposedly Baam's destiny.
Maybe there is something about the immortality contract ? We probably won't know after a good while... Unless Traumerei's backtory shares some lights on that ?
Demonspeed > Icarus is also a "prince" not a "princess".
Maybe there is something about the immortality contract ? We probably won't know after a good while... Unless Traumerei's backtory shares some lights on that ?
Demonspeed > Icarus is also a "prince" not a "princess".
Source for this? Has it been confirmed anywhere? I remember at least A.A.'s thoughts when he saw the book but it could be titled "Icarus and the Prince of Zahard" or something.
Plus, the lore states that all the FHs weren't on Zahard's side until something happened that caused them to then all side with Zahard against V and Arlen.
Something like a crime they all committed together? The lore makes it sound like some incident, or some switch flipped.
On top of that if you consider that Rei has lost his memories, it makes me wonder if Zahard is the obvious culprit of that. And if he wiped Rei's memories, did he also wipe the other FHs? V and Arlen weren't present for this, and I think maybe Gustang was until he found out the truth (from the pocket maybe). Hence, his attitude change towards Zahard. Now, Gustang is trying to wake up Rei's memories with the book. Even his war announcement at the end of S2 seemed to hint at something being the cause beyond Zahard merely deciding to stop climbing. So SOMETHING happened.
The stuff inside Baam looks like the sun and eats the souls...
And by the way where are the souls of the people died in the Tower, the one who died in the Hell Train can never escape.
Why is the Icarus incident in that order? It's all ancient history. Was Icarus part of the reason the FHs rallied against V/Arlen? Zahard reminded them that he has something to hold over their heads?
It was a great shame for the adventurers, whatever happened. Do you think V/Arlen share in this shame? Seems they were busy playing grabass and missed whatever happened? Or maybe V alone did (miss what went down), and that incident (on 100F?) didn't affect him?
I'm just not sure what part is incongruent with the chronology, which I suspect anyways. It's all one interrelated mess. Even if Icarus incident preceded the FHs joining Zahard against the two, it could have had repercussions (why wasn't V immortal for instance) that followed into the divide.
I don't know.
The Zahard 'princesses appeared before Zahard became king, they said this system was created because Zahard can't have children.
The Princes had appeared between the Hell Train and princesses creation.
It seems logic for me.
I don't know.
The Zahard 'princesses appeared before Zahard became king, they said this system was created because Zahard can't have children.
The Princes had appeared between the Hell Train and princesses creation.
It seems logic for me.
I don't know. The Zahard 'princesses appeared before Zahard became king, they said this system was created because Zahard can't have children.
The Princes had appeared between the Hell Train and princesses creation.
It seems logic for me.
Something I've been wondering about is what exactly is the significance of a prince of zahard to the story. Clearly zahard producing an heir is something of consequence to the metaplot but the story is not clear on what that is. As in, something that will affect zahard will come to pass if he produces an heir. Crackpot theory, if zahard produces an heir and said heir becomes a ranker then zahard's kingship contract will end. Hence all the shenanigans with princes of zahard walking around and zahard sabotaging the princess project. And all family heads are eternaly stuck where they are (with some being fine with it).
Zahard had the help of princesses to conquer floors. The climb was a very long time, perhaps thousands of years. Ostensibly, the princess program was to pacify the populace that wanted a queen, but who would even be clamoring for a queen anyways? That might have been something he started prior to becoming a king in anticipation of not looking like a lone tyrant.
Zahard had the help of princesses to conquer floors. The climb was a very long time, perhaps thousands of years. Ostensibly, the princess program was to pacify the populace that wanted a queen, but who would even be clamoring for a queen anyways? That might have been something
Source for this? Anyway, if it's the case then the events 5,6 and 7 can be switched. Also, even after his win, dispatching them to deal with the resistance here and there wouldn't be strange.
I don't think it makes sense for the Princess Project to start before Zahard's proposal to Arlen. Plus, if they were called princesses then he was recognized by a lot as king already.
Zahard was powerful, charismatic and the king. Of course it would be weird if he had no suitors. A leader like him without a spouse would look weird.
Anyway, if it's the case then the events 5,6 and 7 can be switched. Also, even after his win, dispatching them to deal with the resistance here and there wouldn't be strange.
I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case. But, the point is we cannot date their creation. Zahard could have:
- just did the tests on the way up, then became king, then worked his way back down building empire (most-likely as you point out)
- conquered on the way up (this would require princesses to meet the lore)
I don't think it makes sense for the Princess Project to start before Zahard's proposal to Arlen. Plus, if they were called princesses then he was recognized by a lot as king already.
This gets into too much speculation, and I agree with you on the surface. IMO, princesses started as something else. I think the prince program was first. I think there's ample evidence for that. Zahard was cloning pretty early on. I don't doubt he was making super-soldiers, irrespective of what they were called. They had armies (V was a 'warlord' for instance) *during the climb*. Also, something around the cloning program was a big problem for him and the others, and it was washed from Tower history. A huge mistake and a shame they shared. If armies were had for conquering, as necessary and the precedent is V himself, then OFC an egoist like Zahard would need/have an army of his own as well. And the quickest path for that as we've seen time and again in other fantasy is to clone oneself to create an army of yourself, and/or use your blood to make super-soldiers. THAT is the more obvious first functions of prince or princesses, IMO.
LOL. Look weird to *who* exactly? It's been a loooonnnnnnnggggggggggggg time and clearly this hasn't been 'solved' for anyone supposedly clamoring for a queen, if anyone ever even existed in the first place. And Zahard cares about optics, why?
Zahard became the king even against the will of his companions (they first fought amongst themselves before taking his side, and notoriously V and Arlen split, along with proto-FUG and even some of the others they climbed with). He then killed (literal genocide) and cursed many of the aids (the so-called 'cursed people,' Native Ones) he had while climbing. He sought ZERO of the will or thoughts of others to become king (look what he did to his very own friends and helpers). His charisma only existed in the sense that he desired power - not that he desired power via the function of being elected or a 'king of the people.'
Think about how Zahard has treated those closest to him, to those that helped him. If he cares that little for their opinion (and lives and livelihood), how much less does he care about Tower scrubs supposedly feeling some type of way about a royal family? It doesn't even register...
We know enough about Zahard to know he didn't take polls. He could care less what people wanted. He became king by brute force, and against the opinions of his closest people. Much less those he lorded over. Irregulars (that aren't even the king) see them as bugs anyways - even more so for Zahard. He didn't suddenly become magmanimous or care about popular opinion after literally slaughtering his way to the top. There were no uprisings because a queen didn't exist lol. Rather, because his kingship was by force and 'illegitimate' - no one was happy with the notion of having a "false" tower king by force, but somehow it's OK if he has a queen? Come on. The issue was they didn't want a King forced on them in the first place, and they didn't want to be stopped from further climbing. A queen doesn't somehow smooth these rather glaring problems over. 'Oh, well, you've forced a monarchy on me that affects how I live and operate and controls what I can and can't do and I'd rather die than have that governance over me, but at least we have a queen so it's cool!'
Others have discussed how weird it is that no one in the Tower even seems to know what he looks like (save his closest companions and maybe those from his inner circle). There are no 'Dear Leader' placards or signs or flags anywhere. Only his symbol exists. No one seems to recognize his clones as looking like him. His rule is absolute and no one questions it. His rule is in no way 'personal' for 99.9999% of the Tower residents. They'd have no feelings of closeness or familial pressure for an unelected despot they'll never meet, see as a god, and haven't even seen a picture of. They'd go back to living their lives. Think more of a poor rice farmer in medieval Chian having thoughts one way or another about the emperor, not so much modern day fawning over the British royal family. Only about a million times more extreme.
The premise that the people, unknowing of even their King's face, unelected, and tyrannical, just trying to get by and survive in his empire (and climb the Tower themselves), desired some queen they'd also never see (or even know about), and had any say in how the empire operated (such as heirs) doesn't jive. Their opinions NEVER mattered. Climbing, surviving, not sticking out to be killed, gaining fame/money - those things matter.
Tens of thousands of years have existed since this princess patch has supposedly been employed. The people have never even seen a hint of a queen nor an heir even coming close to being produced or nominated. The notion that princesses quell a desire of the masses that doesn't make sense, doesn't really exist, hasn't really been polled, changes nothing, and clearly hasn't been resolved (ever) is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The proof of that is the tens of thousands of years that have taken place with neither a prince/princess nor queen. If you wanted something and I said I have a solution and it only took tens of thousands of years for you to get it (if ever) you certainly have NOT been appeased.
Even the Tower government (if somehow their opinions mattered) is owned by Zahard, and basically ALLOWED to operate. It doesn't function on giving a shit whether Zahard has a queen or a prince (clearly he's had neither in so long it's a non-issue), but rather the function of maintaining empire and supposedly the next ruler will see to it that the climb resumes.
In short - no one gives two shits about a tyrant having a queen or not. Never have. I think that story is a cover story of a cover story. Zahard was ALREADY cloning and fooling around with genetics (Captain existed very early on - and hints that he was a fellow adventurer). People knew princesses existed, so a story was created as to why (the story created was disseminated as a cover story itself). Zahard has NEVER ONCE cared about popular opinion, there's no evidence of anything even approaching that, but plenty to show the opposite - that he didn't care one iota.
TLDR: princesses existed a lot earlier than most seem to think, in other iterations perhaps even (who cares if called 'princess'?), in other functions (as super-soldiers for conquering), in a period where conquering was necessary (during the climb - see V as an 'warlord'), at a time when cloning/genetic fuckery was taking place (Captain probably climbed with the companions), and the princess story doesn't make any sense at all and solved nothing for no one.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Also, I might add, it's entirely possible Zahard was making himself 'King' in various Floors, in various regions on his way up. If the first climb was exceedingly long, which it appeared to be, he'd have ample time. Each floor is the size of a continent IRL, so plenty of space or regions for him to do so. We know floors are so large that kingdoms can exist and be relatively isolated - see White and his multiple kingdoms that he was simultaneously king over. We know lords (kings, essentially) existed before the OG13 even entered (Molic). Entire nations existed that sided with FUG (Genesis War), obviously they had leaders too. The Flower Kingdom existed. Etc.
Zahard could just have easily been king of several kingdoms before becoming the Tower King itself. It fits his profile. And to rule over those kingdoms, or conquer them in the first place, he'd need an army and/or supersoldiers. 'Princesses' could have been used in those respective kingdoms in his stead. Or clones at the time.
I was wrong. It was indeed mentionned as "Icarus AND the prince of Zahard". So there is no indication in that sentence that Icarus is a man.
I am now of the opinion that Icarus is the son of V and Arlen (not Baam), and Zahard may be the Prince of Zahard. Again, he just has a first name and no family name (or the opposite).
Icarus being the baby makes sense since Rachel is famous for wanting to get everything from Baam. That may include "being Icarus, or taking Icarus' body", and she could only get that intel from Arlen. The Sun is also a good observation. The fact that Baam was trapped also is (reference to Daedalus' labyrinth).
All is pretty much pure speculation as of now anyway.
Now I think we can say that Icarus is a woman for sure so she isn't a prince.
Maybe a princess, since that's something Rachel would like to become, but not necessarily a Zahard Princess. Potential love triangle with her, Zahard and Traumerei?
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