Question Is Zahard trying to become an axis?

[kkck]

Zahard's power that met data Zahard made the point that he was trying to control fate itself. Through the lore SIU Has told us a few things regarding fate and Axis and both of them seem to be deeply related at a minimum. SIU specifically makes the point that the future having infinite possibilities within TUS is not a thing but rather the past is fixed and thus limits the future (or whatever it is that means). In any case the way Zahard speaks makes sense with what SIU mentions regarding both fate and axis. Do you guys think it is possible that Zahard is trying to become an axis?

One of the things that sort of make me think this could be the case is that figuring out how the world works could have made Zahard the adventurer become like this. Evil, twisted and uncaring. For an adventure nut like zahard was, the thrill would have existed in the unknown, uncertainty. But if fate is as fixed as SIU's lore would suggest then Zahard's adventures would be meaningless because of how much he would be limited by fate. So for an adventure nut like zahard to have an adventure the next logical step would be to become an axis and release himself from fate by controlling it as an axis.

And that could also sort of explain what the overall story is about. The story has axis which, well, control the story. Zahard is trying to reach further and take control of a story by becoming an axis. And if his words mean what they appear to mean he has had some measure of limited success. Of course, zahard isn't an axis right now but if he can control fate to an extent right now then it is reasonable to say he is on his way there. And of course, that is where bam comes in. Bam would be an axis' attempt at stopping zahard. The god of the outside, the axis on the outside, retaliating against zahard on trying to usurp his story. I would still argue that this would make bam an enemy of the god on the outside though, for controlling him.

 

[Ripcord]

This is a pretty good theory. Imagine if you had a dream to win a game and worked hard for hundreds of years. Then one day you realize the game is rigged and you can never win. Do you accept that you can’t win and move on or do you fight the game?

Seems like Zahard couldn’t accept not being able to win (meaning adventure as he pleased, conquering the Tower perhaps). Then I wonder if Zahard got some way of seeing the future that he could see the future of his companions. Then he told all of them “follow me or you die.” Or something like that.

If Zahard truly is trying to mess around with fate then that could explain why the 135th guardian is overly hostile and could explain why Phanta came to visit Zahard. As to why Zahard wasn’t killed... well my guess is that Phanta has Zahard woven into Bam’s story so he’s a necessary challenge.

Kinda funny because in ToG the true axis is SIU and we are like Zahard in a way on the adventure. And yet we know somewhat will happen (or usually happens in a work like this). Bam will win. But what does that mean exactly? Well someday we will find out.

 

[kkck]

This is a pretty good theory. Imagine if you had a dream to win a game and worked hard for hundreds of years. Then one day you realize the game is rigged and you can never win. Do you accept that you can’t win and move on or do you fight the game?

Seems like Zahard couldn’t accept not being able to win (meaning adventure as he pleased, conquering the Tower perhaps). Then I wonder if Zahard got some way of seeing the future that he could see the future of his companions. Then he told all of them “follow me or you die.” Or something like that.

If Zahard truly is trying to mess around with fate then that could explain why the 135th guardian is overly hostile and could explain why Phanta came to visit Zahard. As to why Zahard wasn’t killed... well my guess is that Phanta has Zahard woven into Bam’s story so he’s a necessary challenge.

Kinda funny because in ToG the true axis is SIU and we are like Zahard in a way on the adventure. And yet we know somewhat will happen (or usually happens in a work like this). Bam will win. But what does that mean exactly? Well someday we will find out.

How I pictured it was more like "zahard won because the game was rigged" sort of. That is why I mention zahard never truly being able to have an adventure; because the result of the adventure was already predetermined whether he lived or died.

I am not sure of how the 135th floor guardian would play into this but zahard trying to become an axis and actively messing with fate, a story, is certainly something that could draw the attention of an axis like phantaminum. Specially if it is his story that zahard is messing with. We know that the past is set and thus limits the future... So perhaps stuff zahard did made it so that phantamunum couldn't or wouldn't just end him due to the consequences that would have. Basically zahard could have set things up so that if phantaminum snapped him out of existence it would screw up the rest of the story.

Of course, if this is how things are going to play out then I can sort of sympathize with zahard. His overall aim is to be free of fate which effectively chains him. Bam in that sense could be something like countermeasures to zahard, the best way fate came up with to deal with zahard while preserving the overall story they were going for. Of course, zahard becoming an axis is not necessarily a good thing. And Bam actually succeeding in his quest is also not necessarily a good thing.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 10, 2018 ---

I have wondered if SIU considers himself an axis. On the other hand I wondered if perhaps Talse User Story refers to the tower of god axis which would be Talse User. On the other hand the explanation we have is that talse user is the universe in which tog is set in...

 

[Kiibou]

wasn't Phantanium said to have nothing to do with the tower?

which is why shinsoo could potetially be able to harm Phantanium because its another axis' axis field.

 

[kkck]

wasn't Phantanium said to have nothing to do with the tower?

which is why shinsoo could potetially be able to harm Phantanium because its another axis' axis field.

Thats in the wiki though from how it is phrased it seems like a sort of theory. To me at least it is hard to imagine what a fight between axis would even look like. What SIU did say was that phataminum could make the tower disappear altogether if he wanted to though. I don't know what exactly is phataminum's relation to the tower but he clearly has a lot of power there.

Thinking about it, perhaps zahard tampering with fate is the reason phataminum paid him a visit.

 

[OneEye]

How I pictured it was more like "zahard won because the game was rigged" sort of. That is why I mention zahard never truly being able to have an adventure; because the result of the adventure was already predetermined whether he lived or died.

I am not sure of how the 135th floor guardian would play into this but zahard trying to become an axis and actively messing with fate, a story, is certainly something that could draw the attention of an axis like phantaminum. Specially if it is his story that zahard is messing with. We know that the past is set and thus limits the future... So perhaps stuff zahard did made it so that phantamunum couldn't or wouldn't just end him due to the consequences that would have. Basically zahard could have set things up so that if phantaminum snapped him out of existence it would screw up the rest of the story.

Of course, if this is how things are going to play out then I can sort of sympathize with zahard. His overall aim is to be free of fate which effectively chains him. Bam in that sense could be something like countermeasures to zahard, the best way fate came up with to deal with zahard while preserving the overall story they were going for. Of course, zahard becoming an axis is not necessarily a good thing. And Bam actually succeeding in his quest is also not necessarily a good thing.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 10, 2018 ---

I have wondered if SIU considers himself an axis. On the other hand I wondered if perhaps Talse User Story refers to the tower of god axis which would be Talse User. On the other hand the explanation we have is that talse user is the universe in which tog is set in...

My understanding is that Zahard is not an Axis, but desperately wanted to be one. Unfortunately for him, though super strong, he was limited by his past and fate screwed him up. Then, just like Uchiha Madara, he rejected reality and decided to act like an Axis in the Tower: restructuring it, signing contracts ,sealing the way to the 135th floor to ensure no one got above him, even subduing the other Great Warriors, ... and guess what : all of these actions still didn't qualify him as an Axis, they only made him a fake king, as he must have been reminded by Phanta and Enryu. That is where Baam comes in, with a more promising and glorious future... I really can't imagine Zahard's joy in trying to squeeze life out of that baby, just in case it would guarantee him a more glorious fate.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 9, 2018 ---

And, for now, while hibernating, he must still be trying to figure out how become an Axis.

 

[kkck]

My understanding is that Zahard is not an Axis, but desperately wanted to be one. Unfortunately for him, though super strong, he was limited by his past and fate screwed him up. Then, just like Uchiha Madara, he rejected reality and decided to act like an Axis in the Tower: restructuring it, signing contracts ,sealing the way to the 135th floor to ensure no one got above him, even subduing the other Great Warriors, ... and guess what : all of these actions still didn't qualify him as an Axis, they only made him a fake king, as he must have been reminded by Phanta and Enryu. That is where Baam comes in, with a more promising and glorious future... I really can't imagine Zahard's joy in trying to squeeze life out of that baby, just in case it would guarantee him a more glorious fate.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 9, 2018 ---

And, for now, while hibernating, he must still be trying to figure out how become an Axis.

Zahard not being an axis is something that has been stated by SIU. Given what we know of axis though it sounds weird that zahard would try to fake being an axis through contracts or something else. The feel I got from the previous chapters and what is on the wikia regarding axis and TUS is that zahard is doing the stuff he is doing as the means towards becoming an axis but he has not deluded himself into thinking something as small as contracts with administrators approach him to one (that is just the impression I have, it is by no means meant to be factual).

 

[OneEye]

Zahard not being an axis is something that has been stated by SIU. Given what we know of axis though it sounds weird that zahard would try to fake being an axis through contracts or something else. The feel I got from the previous chapters and what is on the wikia regarding axis and TUS is that zahard is doing the stuff he is doing as the means towards becoming an axis but he has not deluded himself into thinking something as small as contracts with administrators approach him to one (that is just the impression I have, it is by no means meant to be factual).

I too have been tempted to think that Zahard does what he does just as a means to become an Axis. But what doesn't make much sense is that he doesn't seem to leave any open loop or opportunity for that to happen:
- we would have expected him to leave Baam alive, so as to try to use him in the future, but he did the direct opposite, trying to squeeze life out of him.
-we would have expected him to use the zahard princes and princesses somehow for that, but he's made sure many of them die without reaching any significant goal.
-We'd expected he left the 135th floor open and try to use anyone who goes there to his own advantage, but that too isn't the case.
-to exaggerate a little, we could have even expected him to try to absorb a few or all the family heads, but that too seems not to be in his agenda.

Then it leaves us wondering: if he dreams of becoming an Axis, then just what is his strategy, and how would that strategy have to do with simply hibernating for so long !?!

 

[Sakashi]

What if Baam is a being that no Axis can control? Axis can control the fate of people but what if the same doesn’t work on Baam?

 

[kkck]

I too have been tempted to think that Zahard does what he does just as a means to become an Axis. But what doesn't make much sense is that he doesn't seem to leave any open loop or opportunity for that to happen:
- we would have expected him to leave Baam alive, so as to try to use him in the future, but he did the direct opposite, trying to squeeze life out of him.
-we would have expected him to use the zahard princes and princesses somehow for that, but he's made sure many of them die without reaching any significant goal.
-We'd expected he left the 135th floor open and try to use anyone who goes there to his own advantage, but that too isn't the case.
-to exaggerate a little, we could have even expected him to try to absorb a few or all the family heads, but that too seems not to be in his agenda.

Then it leaves us wondering: if he dreams of becoming an Axis, then just what is his strategy, and how would that strategy have to do with simply hibernating for so long !?!

What? Why would we expect him to have done any of that in order to become an axis? Or, why would we expect any of that to help him become one? We don't even know if zahard can absorb people nor the process to become an axis. IF zahard's aim is to become axis then our assumption should be that the stuff he has done can help him achieve that goal.

As for zahard hibernating, I don't think we were meant to take that literally. As in, he wasn't literally sleeping for the past thousands of years. Rather he simply inactive as king, he is simply not ruling directly.

 

[OneEye]

Yes, it's true that the process to become an Axis remains undefined. But then, my reason for enlisting those strange possibilities had to do what Juha Bach in Bleach did in order to become a god
- trying to climb higher
-absorbing his underlings
-more or less using the main heroes. ..

It's true that Zahard is an entirely different deal, but, if he really was working his way up to become an Axis, we'd expect him to either be actively setting things in motion, or pulling strings around (though I don't really see him, with all his pride, simply pulling strings ). But then, technically, him trying to kill Baam on sight equally raised the possibility that he's up to something huge to which the latter may constitute a hindrance.

The strangest thing, for now, was his statement about fate.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2018 ---

What if Baam is a being that no Axis can control? Axis can control the fate of people but what if the same doesn’t work on Baam?

For now, so far, Baam's fate seems to have been very much controlled. He's been controlled by almost everyone around him to do just what they wanted (Arlene, Rachel, Fug, Yuri, Gustang...)

 

[Sakashi]

Yes, it's true that the process to become an Axis remains undefined. But then, my reason for enlisting those strange possibilities had to do what Juha Bach in Bleach did in order to become a god
- trying to climb higher
-absorbing his underlings
-more or less using the main heroes. ..

It's true that Zahard is an entirely different deal, but, if he really was working his way up to become an Axis, we'd expect him to either be actively setting things in motion, or pulling strings around (though I don't really see him, with all his pride, simply pulling strings ). But then, technically, him trying to kill Baam on sight equally raised the possibility that he's up to something huge to which the latter may constitute a hindrance.

The strangest thing, for now, was his statement about fate.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2018 ---

For now, so far, Baam's fate seems to have been very much controlled. He's been controlled by almost everyone around him to do just what they wanted (Arlene, Rachel, Fug, Yuri, Gustang...)

I guess...but the reason to why I believe that no one controls his fate is because there was a panel when HWA told Evans that no guide can make a path for Baam because the path he is walking is completely different to everyone else (means that guides can't exactly read it up to 100%). Furthermore, the guides can indeed read the events that are going to take place in the future but not what Baam is going to do and that's why he still remains like a riddle to figure out.

 

[OneEye]

I guess...but the reason to why I believe that no one controls his fate is because there was a panel when HWA told Evans that no guide can make a path for Baam because the path he is walking is completely different to everyone else (means that guides can't exactly read it up to 100%). Furthermore, the guides can indeed read the events that are going to take place in the future but not what Baam is going to do and that's why he still remains like a riddle to figure out.

That's right but then, while Baam's path (an irregular ) may appear uncertain to all the guides in the Tower (who are just regulars trying to understand an irregular ), it doesn't really seems to be that uncertain to the irregulars, especially the family Heads.
- From the first day he saw Baam, Gustang knew exactly what he (Baam) should be up to, in the long run. He even supported him in the workshop and helped him acquire a second thorn in order to help him get closer to that goal.
- Arlene knew exactly what monster she unleashed into the Tower as her revenge tool, and what path he'd inevitably take.
- Even Zahard, upon seeing Baam instantly knew what path he'd choose if allowed to stay alive.
- Yuri herself once mentioned something strange and unclear about her destiny with Baam (in the Hell Train ).