Discussion Japan (Genius 5 VS 5 Strongest Msers)

[mathematicianrcg]

Genius 5: Byodoin, Tanegashima, Duke, Tokugawa, Oni.

MS: Ryoma, Yukimura, Kintarou, Atobe, Sanada. (Leaving Out Tezuka and Akutsu since they are not even in team Japan now)

As of right now guys. Do you think The Top Msers reached the level of Genius 5?

Byodoin Beat Volk. And I do not see any Msers (including Ryoma right now) can beat Volk. So, I think Byodoin is still the strongest as of now in Japan Team.

Now the Tanegashima, Duke, Tokugawa, Oni tier.

I think the top Msers has a decent chance against Duke. Maybe. Because He doesn't have any aura. And do not have unbelievable techniques like Void or Black Hole. But, I am maybe underestimating Duke.

Tokugawa destroyed Ryoma beginning of the NPOT story. And I doubt The latter surpassed the former by just beating Ludovic. Yeah, DESTROYED.

ONI with POP and Asura is a force to reckoned with too.

Then, Tanegashima who uses void and can erase his own existence.

But overall, How do you think will the Top Japan Msers will fare against this Genius 5?

 

[Tavore]

I think Irie stronger than Duke and Fuji stronger than Sanada.

 

[-Ken-]

Just add Fuji to it. He seem to be able to handle Ryoma shot just fine. And probably gonna handle PoP too.

It's kinda too soon to be sure for Ryoma/Fuji I think. We might to wait for Ryoga match to determine whether or not Ryoma/Fuji can do it. Ryoma learning from Ryoga is highly hint that he should be able to match some G5 with hope though. It's most likely that Ryoma/Fuji reach this level.

Sanada got complete ass whoop even without Kishin. And Duke Togakuwa seem to be going evenly 3-3 in spoiler. That means Sanada isn't ready for it. Duke might even be the weakest member of G5. Sanada generous ranking would be #6, but he might be around #7-8.

Kintarou shown to be going evenly game wise with PoP! Oni although it was short because the game is almost ending. So depending on where you put Oni, Kintarou should be around #3-5. He also beat #1 Australian HS. That is actually insane accomplishment considering Australia need its #1 player to be better than Switzerland S3 at the minimum. He's probably G5 level.

Yukimura just got whoop by #6 in doubles with a handicapped even when he got good chemistry with Renji. Even if he could be tired, #5-6 is the most I'm willing to give him benefit of a doubt for. Personally, I think Konomi did Yukimura great injustice with that match.

Atobe... is a weird spot. Let's take a look at Irie. Irie completely dominated Kaji the #5. That put him at #4 at the minimum. That means he's probably the same level as those G5 we are talking about. If Atobe can surpass Irie properly in this match, I'll put him at #4 in G10 level. Yes, that's higher than Yukimura. But that's just what the match in the manga would suggest.

 

[LetalHawk]

If Tezuka was included, Tezuka can probably beat Duke and Oni, don’t know about Tane since he can nullify Zone, but Tezuka doesn’t rely on it that much now.

I guess Byodouin should be untouchable atm except for Ryoma after his final powerup, and maybe Tezuka? (Volk was giving Byo a really hard time with the tornado and I guess Uzone would do the same for him).

 

[Jyten]

This is how things pans out for me at the moment. Each line I view as a tier.

Ryoma (post-Ryoga match)
Byo > Oni
Tokugawa >= Tezuka >= Ryoma (seconds before Ryoga match)
Tanegashima > Yukimura > Duke
Irie > Fuji > Ryoma (right now in manga)
Kintarou
Sanada >= Atobe

Tanegashima, Yukimura are super defensive wall players. Which is why even though I rate Tanegashima/Yukimura higher than Duke, Duke probably beats Tanegashima 60/40. Duke probably beats Yukimura 80/20. But Duke probably loses/does worse against the field more often. A field example is Tanegashima has a better chance at beating Amadeus than Duke.

Irie, I think is a tier lower than Tanegashima/Yukimura, Duke. Mostly because his trickiness is pretty bad against those 3 specific players. Tanegashima/Yukimura can probably out defend/bore/yip) him into losing. Irie probably can't deal with Duke's home run. So, he's screwed there. Irie seems to need mind games to win. With these 4 players I don't think factoring in the field matters.

Irie is probably a perfect counter to Fuji/thinking players though. And I don't think Kintarou, Sanada or Atobe have the right playstyle/mindset to beat him. Atobe has the best chance though. But again Irie probably does better against the field than Atobe.

 

[Adamska]

If Tezuka was included, Tezuka can probably beat Duke and Oni, don’t know about Tane since he can nullify Zone, but Tezuka doesn’t rely on it that much now.

I guess Byodouin should be untouchable atm except for Ryoma after his final powerup, and maybe Tezuka? (Volk was giving Byo a really hard time with the tornado and I guess Uzone would do the same for him).

Toranado and UZ are not the same, also Monster Volk and Tezuka too. there is a huge gap here.
As for Prince, he's spirit is in same tier with Boss, Tokugawa and ... that goes for his mentality which is the same as top tiers! (Samurai Spirit)
T(ake a look as Boss Pirate Spirit, I think Ryoma need to do it too, meaning make it better, Samurai with helmet or ... you know)
But problem here, he is lack of strength, basic stat is need to be mention.
...
We know Tezuka, Atobe, ... and how they started and differences between them and rest, Momo, Oshitari, ... ok!
This is same goes with guys like: Byodoin, Oni, Cameo, ...
What I'm trying to say is: those guys are a little older version of likes of Prince, Actusu and...
So give them credit! when you say that he is close to Boss It's like he is close to older version of himself and we all know that very well with potential that they got, 3 years later they become a thread but not in this point! Just keep it as some definition but with all that if you are not satisfied then I go details of why Tezuka is not near to Boss, Q.P or ...

 

[LetalHawk]

This is how things pans out for me at the moment. Each line I view as a tier.

Ryoma (post-Ryoga match)
Byo > Oni
Tokugawa >= Tezuka >= Ryoma (seconds before Ryoga match)
Tanegashima > Yukimura > Duke
Irie > Fuji > Ryoma (right now in manga)
Kintarou
Sanada >= Atobe

Tanegashima, Yukimura are super defensive wall players. Which is why even though I rate Tanegashima/Yukimura higher than Duke, Duke probably beats Tanegashima 60/40. Duke probably beats Yukimura 80/20. But Duke probably loses/does worse against the field more often. A field example is Tanegashima has a better chance at beating Amadeus than Duke.

Irie, I think is a tier lower than Tanegashima/Yukimura, Duke. Mostly because his trickiness is pretty bad against those 3 specific players. Tanegashima/Yukimura can probably out defend/bore/yip) him into losing. Irie probably can't deal with Duke's home run. So, he's screwed there. Irie seems to need mind games to win. With these 4 players I don't think factoring in the field matters.

Irie is probably a perfect counter to Fuji/thinking players though. And I don't think Kintarou, Sanada or Atobe have the right playstyle/mindset to beat him. Atobe has the best chance though. But again Irie probably does better against the field than Atobe.

Do you think Tezuka would beat Tanegashima consistently or that the latter would do worse against him more times?

Imetsumu cancels all the spin on the ball so Zone and Phantom wouldn’t work, I guess Ultimate Zone might do the trick since the amount on the spin it makes is insane and Yuki didn’t beat it after all, but rather stole Tezuka’s senses, however he didn’t beat it directly.

There’s also Ultimate avoid but it’d interesting to know how Tezuka would deal with it.

And yeah, I agree, Yukimura should beat Duke consistently too. Duke’s mental isn’t great so he’d fall for Yips sooner than later, and also Yuki’s technique would seal Homerun and Buster possibly. Could Yuki use some trick to return Homerun? Maybe the grip volley he used against Sanada’s Rai and Volk’s Wirbeltaufe can make him return it (even Wirbeltaufe is a greater shot and Yuki returned it so he should be able to deal with Homerun).

 

[Tavore]

Irie vs Duke who you got?

 

[LetalHawk]

Irie vs Duke who you got?

Duke blows him away, if his 1 in strength is somewhat real (which I doubt). Irie should be able to seal it though, however Duke isn’t slow by any means, so even if he can play evenly with Irie and maintain rallies, unless he figures a trick to deal with Homerun or Buster, he’s screwed.

 

[Jyten]

Do you think Tezuka would beat Tanegashima consistently or that the latter would do worse against him more times?

Imetsumu cancels all the spin on the ball so Zone and Phantom wouldn’t work, I guess Ultimate Zone might do the trick since the amount on the spin it makes is insane and Yuki didn’t beat it after all, but rather stole Tezuka’s senses, however he didn’t beat it directly.

There’s also Ultimate avoid but it’d interesting to know how Tezuka would deal with it.

And yeah, I agree, Yukimura should beat Duke consistently too. Duke’s mental isn’t great so he’d fall for Yips sooner than later, and also Yuki’s technique would seal Homerun and Buster possibly. Could Yuki use some trick to return Homerun? Maybe the grip volley he used against Sanada’s Rai and Volk’s Wirbeltaufe can make him return it (even Wirbeltaufe is a greater shot and Yuki returned it so he should be able to deal with Homerun).

Tezuka I think would beat Tanegashima. I mostly attribute this as Tezuka is used to higher quality players. QP/Volk. Tezuka's spin abilities would get screwed by Tanegashima. However, I see Tezuka just out stat-ing Tanegashima with mostly just PoP. Tanegashima is not known for being ultra fast, strong, or have crazy stamina (alll 5's so good but not Byodoin level). But Tanegashima himself doesn't have any killers that Tezuka can't deal with. So, I see it being a stamina battle. I rate Tezuka's current stamina higher than Tanegashima's.

Yuki vs Duke is very dependent on Duke's ability to not get Yipped. So, it's hard to say for sure. Duke's match will tell a lot about his current level. I hope Duke doesn't get off-screened by Kazuya. But he might. More hyped for Ryoma vs Fuji than Duke vs Kazuya.

Konomi does not rate 1 trick ponies very highly (super strong, super fast, super stamina).

 

[Tavore]

Well the recent chapters changed my mind the MS lose all 5 matches atm. That's until Atobe and Ryoma get their major upgrades.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

We can Review this again

Hsers VS Msers (In Japan Team right now)

Byodoin VS Ryoma

Tokugawa VS Atobe

Tanegashima VS Yukimura

Duke VS Fuji

Oni VS Kintarou

Irie VS Sanada

Ochi (former #4) VS Shiraishi

 

[Ganonslayer101]

Hsers take each match. Shiraishi has the best shot because we don't have a good idea of Ochi's full power, but his serve is still on lock most of the time. Plus Shiraishi might not be able to use Star Bible effectively if he has to focus it on Mental the whole time to avoid Assassination. I think it would be more likely to trigger otherwise since we've seen Shiraishi absolutely crumble to pressure

 

[LetalHawk]

Atobe if it’s a one set match has a decent shot, if his body doesn’t crack up then he should somehow find a weakness in Black Hole with his evolved insight and fight the Ashura with his future self, if he cracks up then it’s game over but Tokugawa has also a time limit for Black Hole. In a three set match he loses because the side effects of his technique.

Ryoma after his final upgrade should be stronger than Byodouin. But for now Byo takes it.

Tane vs Yuki should be interesting. If it’s a 100% focused Yuki then it could be a close match. Yukimura with ZST would make Ultimate Void useless as he doesn’t need to see the opponent to return the shots, he can solely focus on them. Stealing Tane’s future should work after some games, and I doubt that Yuki wouldn’t eventually return Mu which he should.

Fuji if it wasn’t for power he could give a hard time to Duke with the Critical Winds, but if Duke activates his Kijin Fuji gets slammed. In he future he will surpass him but now I think Duke it’s too much for him atm because his Demon Kijin and power.

Oni vs Kintarou depends on Kintarou’s last upgrade but for now Oni takes it in a close match. If Kintarou has a very strong upgrade after his final match I see him surpassing Oni.

Irie would beat Sanada but his triple bend should give him trouble. I wonder if he could return RanShinEnPou because En would blow him away, Irie going into TnK its what would murder Sanada, I honestly don’t see the latter keeping up with him.

Shiraishi crumbled against Zeus Aura but even that should be stronger than Ochi’s mental assasination. If Shiraishi focuses on mental and stays focused to avoid getting pressured he has a fair shot at beating Ochi. His Star Bible would make him unpredictable and he played good and won games against Tristan and Timothee whose base stats are much more higher than Ochi’s. He has a good shot at beating him.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Atobe if it’s a one set match has a decent shot, if his body doesn’t crack up then he should somehow find a weakness in Black Hole with his evolved insight and fight the Ashura with his future self, if he cracks up then it’s game over but Tokugawa has also a time limit for Black Hole. In a three set match he loses because the side effects of his technique.

Ryoma after his final upgrade should be stronger than Byodouin. But for now Byo takes it.

Tane vs Yuki should be interesting. If it’s a 100% focused Yuki then it could be a close match. Yukimura with ZST would make Ultimate Void useless as he doesn’t need to see the opponent to return the shots, he can solely focus on them. Stealing Tane’s future should work after some games, and I doubt that Yuki wouldn’t eventually return Mu which he should.

Fuji if it wasn’t for power he could give a hard time to Duke with the Critical Winds, but if Duke activates his Kijin Fuji gets slammed. In he future he will surpass him but now I think Duke it’s too much for him atm because his Demon Kijin and power.

Oni vs Kintarou depends on Kintarou’s last upgrade but for now Oni takes it in a close match. If Kintarou has a very strong upgrade after his final match I see him surpassing Oni.

Irie would beat Sanada but his triple bend should give him trouble. I wonder if he could return RanShinEnPou because En would blow him away, Irie going into TnK its what would murder Sanada, I honestly don’t see the latter keeping up with him.

Shiraishi crumbled against Zeus Aura but even that should be stronger than Ochi’s mental assasination. If Shiraishi focuses on mental and stays focused to avoid getting pressured he has a fair shot at beating Ochi. His Star Bible would make him unpredictable and he played good and won games against Tristan and Timothee whose base stats are much more higher than Ochi’s. He has a good shot at beating him.

Are we consensus that Atobe can only keep up against Genius 5 in a one set match? And he will lose against all Genius 5 (Byo, Toku, Oni, Tane, Duke) in a 3 set match?
(Well, Pre Infinite Evolution Atobe cannot even handle Irie. Lol)

Currently, Byodoin will destroy Ryoma imo. At least right now.

I think Tanegashima will beat Yukimura with the former using his void techniques

Fuji have more beautiful and cooler shots. But Duke's power and Kijin takes this imo

Ochi beats Shiraishi because the latter have a weakness against Mental Hax. Like in Zeus Aura or in Sedas Mind Control. And Ochi is literally the Mental Assassin.

Yeah, I think It is a lot closer now than back then pre tourney. But Genius 5 still have the SLIGHT upper hand.

Especially, Tokugawa wil have a powerup to match or maybe beat Medanore.

 

[Adamska]

G5!
Who can beat G5? their ability is far better than anything G5 has to offer? how much they can hold it against them?
Oni got the strongest TNK! So any TNK user can do anything about it.
None of any Msers has the ability to corner HSers. actually it's vice versa.
Atobe got something but he has his limit, HSers are experienced enough to pushes him to his limit, Speaking of limit, HSers have more room in that matter too.
I don't see any superiority for MSers as for now.
Some of HSers are not that strong too, but they have something else to fill the void for MSers it is a bit more that's why they chances are low, simple:
MSers in order to win, they must have 1,2,3 and some chances to unlocked 5 and 6 and then one last 7 at the right moment and right time must happened.
...
Tokugawa, without spending sweat, crushes Sanada. Duke did it on Niou too.
These are direct match happened between top Msers and HSers. (best we've got so far. no 60% no anything else) yet HSers didn't go all out, not to mention they didn't reach their limit to unleashed their hiddent potential.
...
Tezuka, Atobe, Kintaro and Prince are top MSers that surpass has monstrous as G5. (some of them even more)
But for now, still I'm defending those old timers)

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Tokugawa VS Sanada is a massive mismatch. I agree.

I felt like Tokugawa only used 50% of his full power if not less.

Kinda unfair though cause Tokugawa is second best Hser and Sanada is like what among Mser? 4th or 5th?

I think Tezuka (if we counting him) has a decent chance of upsetting Duke?

Anyways,

the one thing that Hser is generally better than Mser is Stamina and being able to control and resist side effects.

For ex:

IT IS literally said that

8C is not as strong if used by a Mser (Akutsu) compared to if it is used by a Hser (Byodoin)

Ik Byo is the strongest Hser, and Akutsu is not even a Top 5 Mser.

But the explanation still used is:

"the difference between a Mser and Hser in using 8C)

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 1, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 1, 2023 ---

G5!
Who can beat G5? their ability is far better than anything G5 has to offer? how much they can hold it against them?
Oni got the strongest TNK! So any TNK user can do anything about it.
None of any Msers has the ability to corner HSers. actually it's vice versa.
Atobe got something but he has his limit, HSers are experienced enough to pushes him to his limit, Speaking of limit, HSers have more room in that matter too.
I don't see any superiority for MSers as for now.
Some of HSers are not that strong too, but they have something else to fill the void for MSers it is a bit more that's why they chances are low, simple:
MSers in order to win, they must have 1,2,3 and some chances to unlocked 5 and 6 and then one last 7 at the right moment and right time must happened.
...
Tokugawa, without spending sweat, crushes Sanada. Duke did it on Niou too.
These are direct match happened between top Msers and HSers. (best we've got so far. no 60% no anything else) yet HSers didn't go all out, not to mention they didn't reach their limit to unleashed their hiddent potential.
...
Tezuka, Atobe, Kintaro and Prince are top MSers that surpass has monstrous as G5. (some of them even more)
But for now, still I'm defending those old timers)

I loved the Tokugawa VS Duke matchup. They both went all out.

Especially Duke.

However, we saw now that even Duke at best (100%). Has no chance against Toku's Freezing Ball in the last 2 sets.

Tokugawa evolved Asura Avatar into Righteousness Avatar too.

 

[Adamska]

From what we've seen so far, as a mention or react from characters in manga.
Still HSers has superiority over MSers.
Who has the best ability among MSers?
Atobe? his best tech only wrok as long as he can go on (which is limited to one set) yet it depends on opponents, should we consider that he can use it while Hsers only waited in the hope of limit?
Imagine one set, and no one can do anything about it?
Oni got strongest TNK so far, and his Jikin, All types of knife and kijin.
Tane got his void, seeing ball's spin and send it to blind spot of his opponent. I wonder if he can use his invisible void in single, can he?
Duke, Kijin, all kind of strong shots, guy like Bismarck can made him to not use his homerun but you think Atobe can do this, plus using his own insight?
If he can do it, and we consider that Duke has no any answer to it, well, I think Atobe can beat three of G5.

Kintaro and Ryoma's arc still in session.

Yukimura's comment on Duke and Tokugawa match is enogh for me, and I don't think that Yukimura can beat Sanada 6-0.
Sanada is quite strong person, I wish I could see more of him than triple clutch.

 

[chikkychappy]

MSers don't stand a chance. Yukimura and Sanada are credible witnesses.

 

[Hardy]

We can Review this again

Hsers VS Msers (In Japan Team right now)

Byodoin VS Ryoma

Tokugawa VS Atobe

Tanegashima VS Yukimura

Duke VS Fuji

Oni VS Kintarou

Irie VS Sanada

Ochi (former #4) VS Shiraishi

All the HSers should win comfortably except for Byoudouin if plot demands it (because come on) and maybe Irie. Ochi cannot use his serve every game but his rally against Heracles looked mighty impressive + Shiraishi likely falls for Mental Assassination the moment he doesn't have a 7 in Mental.