Battle Killua vs Phinks

[excadrill]

Transmuter vs Enhancer

This is Post CA Killua vs Phinks

Who would win?

 

[Demonspeed]

Killua would get killed. If he uses Kanmuru he will be able to hit him sometimes then he'll run out and die horribly. He hasn't the level to beat the Troupe.

 

[Phantron]

This question is such a sad representative of the state of HXH's fanbase and its author. Killua would never lose to any human opponent after the Ant arc. He has unconditional first strike capability and he is more than enough to kill any human opponent in the first strike time. Even if an opponent is unbelieveably physically strong for a human, Killua can just pony up some money for a good knife/sword and just stab the guy to death during his initial strike. The only way Killua would lose is if he doesn't plan on killing the opponent and that'd be a completely unreasonable handicap in a fight to the death.

Honestly we're talking about martial arts nonsense that's far below Hong Kong manga here which should not be recommended to anyone. Wang Fong Rai, the fastest man in Hong Kong manga who cannot destroy a planet in one hit, never fights anyone who can't bounce him back with their aura alone, and that's for a good reason because if you can't bounce back the fastest man in the world with just aura alone, you'd just be dead. Most of his opponent are so strong that hitting them causes you to take damage from just their aura. This is far beyond the difference between Killua and Yupi (Killua didn't hurt himself for punching Yupi) and that's the kind of power level you need to overcome the advantage of having unconditional first strike.

---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

Actually all these issues can be resolved by the 'eyeball' test, as in if you have a move that can poke out someone's eyeballs then there's no way you'll lose the fight. This is a popular go-to move for protagonists in the Hong Kong manga when faced against seemingly impossible odds, though it's actually a very solid tactic as if you can't beat a guy with no eyeballs then you're probably pretty screwed. Can Killua poke out the eyeball of any human level opponent? It's said nobody can react to Kanmaru's speed. Can someone reinforce their eyeball to be strong enough to block Killua's fingers? Since you can't react to Kanmaru you can't even try to shut your eyelids first and attempt to defend with that (a few very powerful supervillians that can wipe the floor with Meryem defended against the 'eyeball test' with this tactic in Hong Kong manga).

We know Killua has nothing against ripping out people's hearts, and ripping out someone's eyeball at least doesn't kill them. In fact, that'd be a pretty good compromise to deal with an opponent he doesn't want to kill but doesn't want to get killed by either. Every fight that features Killua against a human opponent would begin and end with that guy having his eyeballs poked out. Now if they're supposed to be in a friendly duel there are ways to deal with unconditional first strike, which goes back to what Hisoka way back at the Celestial Arena about how Gon can beat him after a few more matches at the Celestial Arena, because his killing tactics are not effective in an environment where you're not supposed to just instantly irrecoverably maim your opponent.

 

[tupadre97]

Killua wins with kanmaru. You just have to face it, kanmaru is overpowered and i pretty sure phinks doesn't have anyway to defend against it even if its only eight strikes. He might be a stronger enhancer but i doubt his durability is that strong or enhanced. Uvo might survive kanmaru but not phinks. Also Killua is just plain faster than him and his lightning is much more versatile that Phinks' ripper cyclotron.

 

[Demonspeed]

Killua can't win even with Kanmuru. Actually the main strength of Kanmuru is not the speed, it's the fact it boosts his reflexes. Killua becomes faster but he is the fastest, Tsubone for example can keep up with him and I doubt he is faster than Cheetu. Killua can react and hit his opponent before him but it doesn't mean his opponent can't attack him. He has faster reaction but is not obligatorily the fastest, Nen users who train properly can move their aura at extreme speed, Zazan for example as shown how fast people can be in the last episode. And it was the main weakness of Tsezugera.

Youpi was unstable and just tried to shout while Killua was calm and blitzed him. He has been able to hit him like that because Youpi was still immature, it's only after that fight that he started to act calmly. He also has been able to evade Pouf's attack because his body wasn't complete. Guys like Morel and Knuckle were able to anticipate Cheetu's attack despite his speed, it's not that difficult for a experienced fighter. There is a reason Killua didn't even try to attack Illumi during the Election arc( another reason than fear). Maybe he'll be able to hit him first but he won't win in an exchange of blows. Killua's electricity is not very powerful too, he kills his opponents mostly with his assassin skills. There are many factors to take in account in Nen battles.

 

[Phantron]

Kanmaru is flat out stated as impossible to defend against. There isn't even time for Yupi to shout as he's getting hit. It's basically a newbieish mistake when it comes to martal arts type worlds to give anybody this kind of ability that isn't a supervillian because no human HXH opponent can possibly past the 'eyeball test' against someone with unconditional first strike. You don't 'tough out' some hits when you're going to be missing both of your eyeballs after the first strike. You'd just be dead. Unlike say, Gon, Killua isn't someone who has qualms against removing enemy body parts. You can say an attack like that could not be maximized if it was in Kurapika's hands, but Killua definitely has no qualms to doing irreversible and brutal damage to his opponent.

Incidentally unconditional first strike abilities are typically defended by aura barrier type abilities. Not aura-reinforced. We're literally talking about a solid force field that you must penetrate before even contacting an opponent. Not even Meyrem can do this. Note that this is far above 'taking no damage'. Meryem takes no damage from most physical attacks but you definitely can hit his physical body if he didn't try to avoid your attack. Of course any character with aura barrier type abilities are generally godlike supervillians, but it's still more feasible to be able to carrier solid barrier out of aura compared to reinforcing your eyes to block someone's attack.

There's a reason why Killua doesn't fight anyone after the Ant arc, because Togashi is smart enough to realize that he cannot possibly lose to any human opponent in his current state. At least the Ants could grow more eyeballs. Humans sure can't do that.

 

[KingOfNight]

If Killua is so strong, he wouldn't be scared shitless of Illumi. Throughout the Election arc, it was ridiculously obvious that Killua was nothing to the top tiers. Not only Illumi and Hisoka, but half the butlers of the Zoldyck Family could beat the shit out of him if the need arises. He even knows that himself. I don't care how fast he is, he's not defeating Phinks with puny strikes that he would barely feel.

 

[Phantron]

An ordinary person can wipe the floor with the entire world let alone merely Ilumi with the portable Drgaonballs on his side. The reason why Killua can't fight back in the Election Arc is for plot purposes because otherwise there wouldn't even be a story. Heck even if he didn't want to fight anyone he could just teleport himself and Alluka to middle of nowhere and then teleport whoever he needs to him and then erase everyone's memory after he's done.

For all this praise about Togashi being a genius, he's actually pretty newbieish when it comes to actual fighting. Similar to how in MMA when all is said and done you usually have two people just wrestling each other because that's the most effective way to win even though a guy masters 10 other forms of martial arts, in a superhuman martial arts environment the best way to win is the poke out the other guy's eyeballs. Togashi obivously has not actually thought about the implications of his abilities until it's too late to fix them. Normally superhuman martial artist are prevented from doing such things by a code of conduct, but this doesn't apply to Killua who has no problem with brutally murdering his opponets if necessar. Because no human level opponent possesses aura barrier/aura knockback (knockback based solely on touching their aura) moves, Killua is already invinicible in the world of HXH against human opponents which is why he is not allowed to actually fight any human opponents.

---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------

The superhuman martial artist is hardly something invented by Togashi. The Chinese in particular have thought of this issue for a long time and there are two extremely difficult problems with superhuman martial arts. There's the aforementioned eyeball test, but equally difficult is how do you deal with a 'kick opponent in the balls'. It's equally unfathomable to imagine someone block this attack by reinforcement methods. Although this isn't as fatal, getting kicked in the balls would surely leave the opponent doubled in pain and thus vulnerable to further attack. And that's just the martial arts side. In The Deer and the Caludron, Jin Yong, one of the most influential figures in this field of writing (and almost certainly Togashi read his works and got his idea of aura from), explored what if you've a protagonist who basically has no aura but just fights dirty and has connections to have the right tools to defeat aura, and the result is actually quite effective.

This guy carries all kinds of poison and blinding powder on him, and he wears an aura-resistant armor, carries an aura-piercing knife and later an aura-piercing projectile weapon. This guy can generally defeat anyone except the top 5 guys of his world if he gets the jump on his opponent, since they'd usually start out the fight paralyzed (from poison) or blind. His aura projectile weapon is coated with paralyzing poison (though it can easily be deadly poison) and is designed to take out a top 5 calibur opponent, as it was designed by a powerful aura user who doesn't mind fighting dirty either.

And this guy has no aura abilities whatsoever. What if someone who could use aura go do the same? Why wouldn't you use an aura-piercing projectile aimed at someone's face that's coated with deadly poison if you're just trying to survive against impossibly powerful opponents? To solve this, the world of superhuman martial arts is necessarily extremely honorable. Not only are the good guys bound by this rule but it usually applies to the bad guys as well. This is needed so that you don't have two grandmasters that just immediately start throwing biological agents at each other and then attempting to rip each other's eyes out even though that's what they should do if they're actually trying to win.

But Killua doesn't obey by this rule. He's seen ripping out people's face/heart at various times so obviously he can rip someone's eyeballs out if he feels it's necessary. In fact given he doesn't want to kill people, blinding someone is a pretty good idea to make sure your opponent won't be bothering you without taking unnecessary risk for yourself. The notion that you can attack someone without retaliation and then unable to actually kill them is absurd. Togashi is not smarter than all the guys who wrote about his subject long before him. You can't get past the eyeball rule if you allow a guy to attack unconditionally without fear of retaliation, which is what Killua does. Maybe you can argue Killua would not want to permanently maim someone he knows, or even another Hunter, but none of that applies to a Spider who are obviously outcasts of the society.

 

[Mylesime]

Killua has made enough progress to represent a threat to phinks imo, but the spider's member should clearly have the upper hand, so phinks should win, not handily, but not with an extreme difficulty.
Let's not act like killua is on another planet regarding fights in hxh, there are means to protect one vital points as shown by machi when the spider had kidnapped gon and killua. Gon showed it perfectly against genthru, you handle the concentration of aura shared betwin the differents parts of youy body, that's a way to prevent instant kill.
Let's not forget "en" also, killua is fast and has amazing reflexes, but phinks is not helpless in this department, in order to pass phinks ren it's natural to think that the zoldick would have to use gyo if not ko, which would expose him to a counter. The fastest person does not necessarly win a fight, furthemore when we keep in mind that phinks is also superhuman in terms of speed based on normal criteria.

In fact i think that phinks should win thanks to the significant gap in aura power,physical endurance and ryu mastery betwin the two.
Kanmuru isn't the solution to all problems, phinks hasn't an hatsu well built to deal with it, but morau and his smoke, hisoka and his pansy gum, kurapika and his chains, machi and her strings, have shown powers that can prevent them from being blitz and instantly killed by kanmuru.

 

[Phantron]

Killua has made enough progress to represent a threat to phinks imo, but the spider's member should clearly have the upper hand, so phinks should win, not handily, but not with an extreme difficulty.
Let's not act like killua is on another planet regarding fights in hxh, there are means to protect one vital points as shown by machi when the spider had kidnapped gon and killua. Gon showed it perfectly against genthru, you handle the concentration of aura shared betwin the differents parts of youy body, that's a way to prevent instant kill.
Let's not forget "en" also, killua is fast and has amazing reflexes, but phinks is not helpless in this department, in order to pass phinks ren it's natural to think that the zoldick would have to use gyo if not ko, which would expose him to a counter. The fastest person does not necessarly win a fight, furthemore when we keep in mind that phinks is also superhuman in terms of speed based on normal criteria.

In fact i think that phinks should win thanks to the significant gap in aura power,physical endurance and ryu mastery betwin the two.
Kanmuru isn't the solution to all problems, phinks hasn't an hatsu well built to deal with it, but morau and his smoke, hisoka and his pansy gum, kurapika and his chains, machi and her strings, have shown powers that can prevent them from being blitz and instantly killed by kanmuru.

Kanmaru is not defendable. Not even a Royal Guard can react to it. That means all you get is whatever aura you've already distributed on your body before the attack. You can't move your hand to block it because you're not fast enough to do that.

The only way you can defend a vital spot is if you start the fight with your hands covering your face and your body in a fetal position. Problem is that you've effectively blinded yourself and you'd just get beat down from range until you uncover your face. En is completely irrelevent because even Pitou turns off En prior to fighting, suggesting that maintaining En greatly reduces your ability to fight and is not practical in the middle of a fight. Maybe if you're a blind person and worked on a strategy of rapidly switching En on and off that might work, but no able sighted person is going to be able to make that adjustment on the fly.

Again it has to be stated that the basis for any kind of fighting that make sense amongst superhuman martial artist is a code of conduct. Kastro didn't just rip a hole in Hisoka's body when he has him caught off guard with his clone technique. If his only goal is to win that's what he should've done and Hisoka would be dead. These codes of conduct are absolutely necessary so you don't have utterly ridiculous outcome with people dying on the first mistake they make. This is why despite the fact that it is perfectly fine to kill your opponent in the Celestial Arena, Kastro didn't go with the guaranteed way of winning by just killing Hisoka when he had the chance.

But then let's say these two met in the Celestial Arena, where clearly grotesque violence is frowned upon. The fight would still be over in the first exchange because Killua will just tell them to check the whole thing in slow-mo and he already hit Phinks 10 times for 10 clean hits and win. Now if Phinks say it's a fight to the death not a fight based on technique merit, then Killua can blind him and ask him if he's really sure about this whole fight to the death deal. The only way Killua can possibly lose is if he greatly underestimates his opponent to the point where he thinks it's not necessary to blind them because he can easily beat them in other ways. If you go fight by some technical rules (like Gon versus Hisoka), Killua can get a TKO any time he wanted to. If you want to fight by who does more damage, Killua can permanently disable his opponent in his first strike.

 

[Mylesime]

Kanmaru is not defendable. Not even a Royal Guard can react to it. That means all you get is whatever aura you've already distributed on your body before the attack. You can't move your hand to block it because you're not fast enough to do that.

First of all, you're implying that royal guard or chimera ants are on another level when talking about reflexes or speed, but when we talk about the top dogs, who phinks clearly is, they aren't overwhelmed by the royal guard in those departments. Shoot fought during a considerable amount of time (in hxh criteria ) against yupi, netero blitzed pito then meruem (i m not talking about meruem last form, he was a god like at that moment). If shoot could handle yupi speed and reflexes, there are a lot of people who could do the same.......with all due respect to shoot.
So yeah, killua is certainly faster and has better reflexes than almost anybody in hxh universe.......that doesn't change the fact that he didn't inflict a single wound to yupi.
Moreover, it seems pretty obvious that aura can move way faster than one body in the manga. Machi was able to protect herself only using gyo while she was holding killua and didn't expect his attack.

The only way you can defend a vital spot is if you start the fight with your hands covering your face and your body in a fetal position. Problem is that you've effectively blinded yourself and you'd just get beat down from range until you uncover your face. En is completely irrelevent because even Pitou turns off En prior to fighting, suggesting that maintaining En greatly reduces your ability to fight and is not practical in the middle of a fight. Maybe if you're a blind person and worked on a strategy of rapidly switching En on and off that might work, but no able sighted person is going to be able to make that adjustment on the fly.

You're way too much specific in my opinion. Concerning "en" i disagree, killua used it to find from where ikarugo was shooting him, gon used it to deal with knuckle speed, nobunoga whole style is based on his en. I guess it depends on the way you use it, "ren" can be used as an "en" in a certain way, it seems that you need to be really focused in order to scan a great area (as zeno did in order to find kururo) which would not be the case in close combat.
Anyway, i was mainly talking about a one move, do or die situation, killua trying to kill someone who would try to counter him while sacrificing a part of his body (like gon did against genthru)

Again it has to be stated that the basis for any kind of fighting that make sense amongst superhuman martial artist is a code of conduct. Kastro didn't just rip a hole in Hisoka's body when he has him caught off guard with his clone technique. If his only goal is to win that's what he should've done and Hisoka would be dead. These codes of conduct are absolutely necessary so you don't have utterly ridiculous outcome with people dying on the first mistake they make. This is why despite the fact that it is perfectly fine to kill your opponent in the Celestial Arena, Kastro didn't go with the guaranteed way of winning by just killing Hisoka when he had the chance.

Kastro was trying to prove something to himself and to hisoka, he wanted to show his progress, he had to make sure hisoka was going all out, that was the whole point of this fight. But that doesn't apply to all the fight in this manga, everyone has his own code in hxh, netero fighting with a mini bomb in his chest, the whole strategy to apply zetsu to yupi,etc,etc.Kurapika using uvo as a guinea pig without the poor man knowing that kurapika's hatsu is an overkill against any spider
I do think that you're overrating killua 's hatsu. There his limitations, not dictated by the plot.

In fact, i do think that killua will be a freaking monster once his growth is over (same goes for gon), he will be stronger than any spider, except maybe kururo , once he's mature, because he's that kind of genius (he has the potential to be comparable to a prime netero one day). But right now there is no way in my mind that phinks would lose a fair fight against killua, especially without being able to reteliate.
Killua was pushed against palm after her transformation, he's still a kid, very dangerous very fast, but still a kid. I think you're understimating the raw difference in aura power and physical strength betwin phinks and killua. Gon and killua have almost the same amount of aura , 20 000 unity (whatever that means, it may even be arbitrary), a guy like morau who stated himself that he's not a fighter has around 70 000, i think that it's a fair assumption to say that phinks should be near an amount of 100 000. That's an approximation, but i think you get the point, if phinks has 5 times killua aura reserve, knowing that he's a high level enhancer, phinks should eventually chrush killua......

And again , based on what we've seen , phinks hatsu is very straight, but against someone as hisoka who could catch him, or zeno able to fly and fire dragon missile speed alone wouldn't be enough for killua . Killua would be that strong but he sin't there yet.

 

[Demonspeed]

^ Pretty much my thoughts except I don't see Killua as the fastest of HXH verse. Killua will obviously be one of the strongest characters of the series. He is gifted and is the youngest electricity transmuter, who can only be mastered after years of training.

 

[Phantron]

People outside the Chinese culture have a very hard time understanding the concept of the unconditional first strike, and I'd say Togashi used it rather poorly. Unconditional first strike is not the same as fast. Fast is like say X attacks Y, and you see Y disappear and appear somewhere else unexpected. Fast is easy to handle. You can easily defeat someone faster than you with the right tactics.

Killua has unconditional first strike via Kanmaru. That is, suppose he says 'I'm going to rip your right eyeball on on the count of 3', and say a neutral guy start counting to 3. If your hand did not cover your eyes before the count of 3 is reached, it's too late. It's faster than reflex and cannot be reacted to. You cannot be faster than him by defintion. His speed is faster than the speed of thought, so you literally can't do anything about it. The only way to defend against such an attack is to guard preemptively, except covering your eyes is effectively blinding yourself and thus not an effective defense at all. And no human level character in HXH can possibly defeat someone remotely close to them while completely blind, nor can any human level character expect to reinforce their eyeball to withstand any kind of decent attack. If someone can do that they're obviously unfathomably more powerful than their opponent.

I'm not sure why Yupi was bought up since all the Royal Guards can withstand attacks from Meryem himself, who can trivially maim any human level opponent with the equivalent of a touch. Of course Killua can't do any meaningful damage to Yupi. Nor can anyone else without specialized weaponry. The reason why Killua didn't pull out Yupi's eyeball is that first, he probably respects the Royal Guards, and second, it wouldn't have mattered because Yupi can grow more eyeballs. Against Pufu, whom Killua does not respect, Killua immediately ripped his face off (including an eyeball), and there's no indication even Royal Guard level of endurance will allow you to block attacks with your eyeball. It just happens two of them aren't bothered by the loss of vision (can get more eyeballs).

It's not a matter of Killua is strong or not. It's that never in the history of martial arts fiction has someone with unconditional first strike ever lost to an opponent who cannot do at least aura knockback, and generally you'd need aura barrier to defeat such an opponent. Aura knockback is the ability to knock your opponent away for simply for touching your aura. No character in HXH can do this. Meryem's aura might make his opponent retreat in fear, but it's not his aura that's physically moving the opponent. This level of expertise is generally still inadequate to defeat such an opponent and to be safe you'd need to create a solid aura barrier in front of you to impede the progress of someone with unconditional first strike, and this is even further above the capability of the HXH universe.

Generally speaking, characters with unconditional first strike aren't very strong overall. It's just that their move kills any human opponent in one hit (nonhuman guys could potentially have more eyeballs) so there's no need for them to be very strong. This is also why you should never mess with an ability like unconditional first strike unless you really know what you're doing. At least Togashi has enough sense to have Killua completely avoiding fighting anybody after the Ant arc, precisely because it'd be utterly inconceiveable he can possibly lose, though this creates its own set of problems later.

 

[Mylesime]

I get what you mean by "unconditional first strike", but from my understanding of the manga killua doesn't have such an ability, because there are conditions to his so called "first strike". With the concept of nen the equation is way more complex than what you state, because in this situation, martial arts are only one parameter amongst other in hxh fight. But once againm killua is meant to be as overwhelming strong than what you say, it will be something like netero does with his kanon, something against what most character will be hopeless.
But right now, killua isn't there yet in my opinion. For the simple reason that there are other parameter that reduce the impact of killua kanmuru.
Regarding this simulation, phinks hasn't a barrier but considering the difference in aura and resistance betwin the two even though phinks isn't immune to killua's attacks he can for sure tank a lot of them. And that's without knowing the whole aspect of phinks hatsu, if phinks can use freely the aura he summons, what would killua do if the spider protect himself with the aura generated by his cyclotron?
In my opinion, killua would have a hard time to bypass phinks ren. Again , hasn't killua stated himself that he would have a hard time in order to get through palm black widow? Is palm once transformed on another level than phinks?
No she isn't nearly as strong or resistant than the guard how can killua have difficulties in that situation? Because he doesn't have an unconditional strike, and because she has some ways to make up for the gap in speed and reflexes.
In short, phinks is on another league compared to killua.

 

[Demonspeed]

Killua doesn't hit first obligatorily. Even during his fight against Youpi he needed to comes near him before attacking, someone like Pitou would have already kill him at that moment. To use his Shippu Jinrai technique he needs to read the aura flow of his opponent(it means he can’t even use it against Netero since his aura flow is unreadable). And remind you Pouf's body wasn't complete, it was just a fraction of his power. The more Nen users train, the more they reinforce their body. In the 1st arc, Netero stated Gon would have crushed his head if he was trying to hit him, Killua's kick wasn't even able to hurt him. Now, Killua can open 5 doors but I don't think it's that different. Mini Biscuit punches did nothing to Bara while she is able to destroy Gon and Killua with a single punch. Killua lacks offensive power, this is why he uses his special yo-yo to compensate.

Strong guys like Silva can utterly destroy opponents like Cheetu with a single punch( I am not sure if he used aura or not) and he isn’t even an Enhancer. Killua has an amazing technique but he has still a lot to learn, it has its weaknesses too.

 

[Phantron]

I get what you mean by "unconditional first strike", but from my understanding of the manga killua doesn't have such an ability, because there are conditions to his so called "first strike". With the concept of nen the equation is way more complex than what you state, because in this situation, martial arts are only one parameter amongst other in hxh fight. But once againm killua is meant to be as overwhelming strong than what you say, it will be something like netero does with his kanon, something against what most character will be hopeless.
But right now, killua isn't there yet in my opinion. For the simple reason that there are other parameter that reduce the impact of killua kanmuru.
Regarding this simulation, phinks hasn't a barrier but considering the difference in aura and resistance betwin the two even though phinks isn't immune to killua's attacks he can for sure tank a lot of them. And that's without knowing the whole aspect of phinks hatsu, if phinks can use freely the aura he summons, what would killua do if the spider protect himself with the aura generated by his cyclotron?
In my opinion, killua would have a hard time to bypass phinks ren. Again , hasn't killua stated himself that he would have a hard time in order to get through palm black widow? Is palm once transformed on another level than phinks?
No she isn't nearly as strong or resistant than the guard how can killua have difficulties in that situation? Because he doesn't have an unconditional strike, and because she has some ways to make up for the gap in speed and reflexes.
In short, phinks is on another league compared to killua.

Your argument is based on the assumption that Togashi is all-knowing and infalilble. He is not. In order for the story to even make any sense of course Killua can't say "Actually I can kill anybody who isn't an alien species that can fight with their head missing in one hit." An ability like Kanmaru is generally a dead end in terms of character progression because it's flat out invinicible, and nobody wants to root for the way overpowered protagonist. Besides, when dealing with Palm, she's a former ally so obviously Killua isn't going to start the fight by attempting to permanently disfigure her. I've said many times but the superhuman martial arts world is limited by rules. Not being able to kill your opponent is one of the biggest handicap out there and it's probably the only way to defeat unconditional first strike without other godlike abilities. It is reasonable to say Killua would have a hard time even using the same tactic on another Hunter because he's a reasonably nice guy, but Phinks? They're clearly wanted dead or alive and it's not like Killua would have any qualms against permanently maiming a Spider.

There's a fairly well accepted truth that aura enforced eyeball is no match for any halfway decent physical attack. If someone could block attacks with their eyeball, they're clearly godlike compared to his opponent. It's more likely an opponent can create an aura barrier than actually be able to reinforce his eyeball to the point it can take a physical attack. Now how fast is Killua? Yupi do not have time to transform while he's getting hit by Kanmaru. Yupi's transformation involves just pumping aura into his body, so Killua is faster than the speed aura can move through your body. This means any reactive defensive mechanism against Killua's attack is ineffective because you cannot even move the aura you need to defend on time. Yupi also doesn't have time to shout, so it's probably at least on par with the speed of thought.

Now, compare this to Netero. How fast is Netero? Both Pitou and Meryem can see the attack (barely). They both certainly have time to think about how to guard against it, even though they can't move fast enough to guard on time. This means Killua's attack speed is almost certainly faster that of Netero's.

Of course, you can argue that Netero's attack carry considerably more power than Killua, but this is irrelevent because of the eyeball rule. It is not conceiveable for an opponent, especially a human one, to shrug off an attack on the eye no matter how weak. It doesn't matter if Killua's attack would do 0 damage to any other part of his opponent's body, because as long as he takes out your eye, you're blind and will soon be dead. Even if you give the opponent unfathomable endurance, you can certainly always retreat rather easily against a blind opponent.

You ask how will Killua penetrate the aura generated by Phinks's techniques? Do you really think Phinks will just somehow concentrate enough aura on his eyeball and just shrug off a hit on it? To pull that off you've to at the very least to be able to aura knockback, e.g. put aura around your eyes preemptively, and when Killua hits it, he's knocked back by the power of the aura alone (because you can't react to his attacks still). To do this means you can physically repel an opponent by just contacting with your aura. Not even Meryem can do this. But even here you'd have to do it preemptively (because you still can't react on time), and the safer approach requires an even more broken power, the aura barrier where you just have a force field in front of you that slows down the opponent and giving you plenty of time to react to their attacks.

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------

Killua doesn't hit first obligatorily. Even during his fight against Youpi he needed to comes near him before attacking, someone like Pitou would have already kill him at that moment. To use his Shippu Jinrai technique he needs to read the aura flow of his opponent(it means he can’t even use it against Netero since his aura flow is unreadable). And remind you Pouf's body wasn't complete, it was just a fraction of his power. The more Nen users train, the more they reinforce their body. In the 1st arc, Netero stated Gon would have crushed his head if he was trying to hit him, Killua's kick wasn't even able to hurt him. Now, Killua can open 5 doors but I don't think it's that different. Mini Biscuit punches did nothing to Bara while she is able to destroy Gon and Killua with a single punch. Killua lacks offensive power, this is why he uses his special yo-yo to compensate.

Strong guys like Silva can utterly destroy opponents like Cheetu with a single punch( I am not sure if he used aura or not) and he isn’t even an Enhancer. Killua has an amazing technique but he has still a lot to learn, it has its weaknesses too.

I've no idea where you get the idea that Killua needs to read his opponent's aura. The point of Kanmaru is that he is so fast he can avoid any hit as they're coming, and on the reverse he is so fast that his opponent has no chance of even defending against his attacks even if they see it coming. Here's a good example that illustrates how fast Kanmaru is:

http://mangafox.me/manga/hunter_x_hunter/v23/c240/14.html

Notice it says that without Kanmaru, he'd have to operate at the speed of thought, which is a bit too slow to deal with the speed the dart materializes. This means Kanmaru is flat out faster than the speed of thought because it can catch an attack that's too fast for you to even think about defending otherwise. And no you can't just say 'people train harder can think even faster' because there's nothing that indicates people can somehow hone in the speed they think about stuff in HXH at all. An attack that's faster than the speed of thought simply cannot be defended reactively, but to preemptively defend against an attack on the eye would result in you blinding yourself (by covering your face with your hands).

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------

As a note, Killua's near invinicibility is also a function of the world he is in. If Phinks and Killua are two characters in One Piece, or almost any other shonen, Killua would not have this advantage, because it's simply illegal to try to pull someone's eyeball out in a typical Shonen. You will never consider that as a valid strategy.

But in HXH, fighting dirty is perfectly fine, and in particular, Killua has no problem with fighting dirty if needed. Gon will never poke someone's eyeball out, but Killua definitely can do it if the situation warrants it. This is why superhuman martial arts or even fighting generally has a 'no eyeball' assumption, or you end up with something like a Hong Kong manga where hardly a week passes without someone missing an eyeball, and yet there's nothing wrong with trying to poke out an opponent's eyeball out when being imprevious to damage is child's play (anyone who can do an aura barrier is generally far above just imprevious to damage).

I found this old Penny Arcade strip on MMA: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/07/15

This illustrates how theory and reality breaks down. And if we're in an aura-like world, the third strip would just feature two guys trying to poke out each other's eyeball.

It is actually precisely because there are way too many unknown factors that you should always go for the eye. We see guys who can fight missing an arm or both. We also have guys who can recover from grevious injury in mid battle. We see guys who are capable of devastating counterattack and incredible plans. Superhuman endurance is perfectly normal in such a world, so you can hardly be sure even your strongest attack can take out your opponent. But the eye? If you somehow lose to someone with no eyes you're simply way over your head when you picked this fight, and even there at least you should be able to run away against a guy with no eyes. Here, HXH being overambitious leads to its own demise. Most shonen simply outlaw 'poking out an eye' as a valid attack. In HXH, this is a pretty darn reliable move. We see Shoot can take an eye off Killua for just doing decent amount of damage with his special ability. Even missing one eye hurts you a ton, and if Shoot can take a second eye? The other guy might as well roll over and die.

 

[Demonspeed]

It has been stated here that he needs to do it, Shippu Jinrai works as a counter attack. You'll notice that Killua attack only when Youpi starts to move. Even against the Ortho Siblings, Killua won only because he knew that they would am for his head, if for example someone doesn't act as he planned, his technique will fail. It's true that Togashi isn't infallible, nobody is, but with all the time he has to think about his manga during his hiatuses and the fact that Killua is a main character, I don't see how you could consider Kanmuru as a invincible move. The way he described the move is clear too, even with that, he doesn't think this technique is overpowered and the last arc proved it.

 

[Phantron]

I checked the two abilities and the problem is that the two abilities Killua has aren't even in the same league in terms of speed. This is an issue when an author messes with some quantity they're not familiar with and end up having it bite them. Let's talk about the time Killua stopped the dart fish. It is clear that he cannot possibly have stopped the fish without Kanmaru. The diagram shows that even if he knew the fish was going to materialize on his head, he'd still be too slow to catch it because of the time it takes his brain to send a signal through his nerves to his hand is greater than the time it'd take the fish to hit him.

This means the dart fish attack is faster than the speed of thought, and since there are no known ways to speed up your nerve impulses via training, we can assume this attack is too fast for ANY human to respond to because it's faster the speed a nerve impulse travels through your body. Therefore, Killua used electricity to increase his reflex speed and bypasses the nerve impulse (which is slow). How fast is this? Well, the fish guy said you need to be faster than the speed of light to pull that off, and that's not an unreasonable first guess. Let's compare this a well-known 'extremely fast' attack, Netero's Hatsu. It is faster than the speed of sound, but usually when you say something is faster than X it is only barely faster than X, as in it'd be silly to say 'faster than sound' if his speed is Mach 10. So let's just say Netero's attack is Mach 1, which is obviously still unbelieveably fast in HXH. Is Mach 1 faster than the speed of thought? Not even close, because if it is, that'd mean his attack would hit you and you don't have time to even think about defending. That means no human opponent could possibly defend against his attack (because they can't even think about defending on time), and then he'd have never lost his '#1 aura user' title if there still isn't even a person who can even have enough time to think about defending. The fact Netero is no longer top 5 means it is certainly within HXH human limits to think and even react to a Mach 1 speed attack. Note that this doesn't mean these guys could beat him, but if they can't even respond to his attack, then Netero's ranking would've never dropped.

So when Killua grabbed the dart fish, his speed is faster than the speed of thought (because the fish attack is faster than the speed of thought), which is something Netero is nowhere close to (if he could do the same, no human could ever challenge his supermacy as he can also deliver power on top of speed with his Hatsu). This means if he was using this ability to attack, his opponent has no chance to defend against it whatsoever because to defend it requires his opponent to think about defending first, and by the time he's done thinking, it'd already be too late. So apply the 'eyeball first' tactic, no human opponent would have any recourse against this move because Killua would poke out your eyeball, and you wouldn't have your eyeballs anymore by the time you even thought about defending your eyeball.

Now let's see when Killua is actually fighting. We know he uses his lightning ability to avoid counterattack. This means he is actually NOT faster than the speed of thought! After all, if I can hit you before you even think about defending, how can you even counterattack? His running speed is shown to be in the 200 MPH range, which is clearly nowhere faster than the speed of thought. That's the speed of a race car and even an ordinary person can certainly have a thought of 'whoa this car is coming at me' and possibly even enough time to react (whether to any meaningful capacity is another question). That is to say, an opponent moving at 200 MPH is not very fast at all compared to a Royal Guard. Cheetu's footspeed is clocked at 160-180 KPH, and it's a speed that top humans can easily to react to. It seems unlikely that increasing it by about 50% suddenly moves your speed completely out of reacting range.

Realistically, to be faster than the speed of thought would require you to have a speed that is several multiple of the speed of sound. And that's probably the speed you'd need to make a Royal Guard feel 'this guy is ridiculously fast'. Of course, Killua's actual displayed speed is nowhere close to the speed of sound let alone a multiple of it. HXH has an obsession of not using numbers whenever possible, but here is where not using numbers leads to its downfall. Killua's speed varies from around 200 MPH (fast but nothing that'd impress a Royal Guard) to several multiples of the speed of sound (this is the amount you need to stop an attack faster than speed of thought) depending on what the plot calls for him to be doing, and yet HXH classifies Killua as just 'really fast'. No human has a chance fighting an opponent that can move at several times the speed of sound. 200 MPH, however, is no problem at all.

That said even if you take the lower end of his speed, the fact that HXH uses no numbers still makes comparison mostly pointless. It's like how Gon displays his strength by smashing walls and later Meryem did the same thing by smashing walls, and without numbers technically you can say those two are exactly as strong as each other because they both smash walls. Still, Killua managed to one-hit kill the Ant that first learned aura, and that guy is at least the same rank as the random Ant that Phinx had to use a Hatsu on. If anything you'd think being the first Ant to learn aura would give that guy more time to hone in his skills, so I'm not seeing why we should assume Phinx has any kind of physical advantage over Killua.

 

[tupadre97]

Killua can't win even with Kanmuru. Actually the main strength of Kanmuru is not the speed, it's the fact it boosts his reflexes. Killua becomes faster but he is the fastest, Tsubone for example can keep up with him and I doubt he is faster than Cheetu. Killua can react and hit his opponent before him but it doesn't mean his opponent can't attack him. He has faster reaction but is not obligatorily the fastest, Nen users who train properly can move their aura at extreme speed, Zazan for example as shown how fast people can be in the last episode. And it was the main weakness of Tsezugera.

Youpi was unstable and just tried to shout while Killua was calm and blitzed him. He has been able to hit him like that because Youpi was still immature, it's only after that fight that he started to act calmly. He also has been able to evade Pouf's attack because his body wasn't complete. Guys like Morel and Knuckle were able to anticipate Cheetu's attack despite his speed, it's not that difficult for a experienced fighter. There is a reason Killua didn't even try to attack Illumi during the Election arc( another reason than fear). Maybe he'll be able to hit him first but he won't win in an exchange of blows. Killua's electricity is not very powerful too, he kills his opponents mostly with his assassin skills. There are many factors to take in account in Nen battles.

Umm what? Did you miss the part wher it says he moves at the speed of lightning with kanmaru? Im pretty sure thats the amazing part. The reflexes just allow him to react to whats going on so he can actually use its ridiculous speed effectively. Even if he can only hit you eight times thats all he needs to take out phinks and even if he didn't use it he would still be faster than him and could defeat him with his lightning and yo-yo techniques.

---------- Post added at 01:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 AM ----------

If Killua is so strong, he wouldn't be scared shitless of Illumi. Throughout the Election arc, it was ridiculously obvious that Killua was nothing to the top tiers. Not only Illumi and Hisoka, but half the butlers of the Zoldyck Family could beat the shit out of him if the need arises. He even knows that himself. I don't care how fast he is, he's not defeating Phinks with puny strikes that he would barely feel.

What? Killua is definitely not scared of Illumi anymore. Even Tsubone said he could take him in a fight now. Also Illumi is the biggest glass cannon in the entire series. He got his arm crushed by Gon b4 he could even use nen, he would get torn to shreds by kanmaru.

---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 AM ----------

^ Pretty much my thoughts except I don't see Killua as the fastest of HXH verse. Killua will obviously be one of the strongest characters of the series. He is gifted and is the youngest electricity transmuter, who can only be mastered after years of training.

Well unless someone comes out with a hatsu that lets them move faster than the speed of lightning no one is faster than killua with kanmaru.

---------- Post added at 01:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------

Killua doesn't hit first obligatorily. Even during his fight against Youpi he needed to comes near him before attacking, someone like Pitou would have already kill him at that moment. To use his Shippu Jinrai technique he needs to read the aura flow of his opponent(it means he can’t even use it against Netero since his aura flow is unreadable). And remind you Pouf's body wasn't complete, it was just a fraction of his power. The more Nen users train, the more they reinforce their body. In the 1st arc, Netero stated Gon would have crushed his head if he was trying to hit him, Killua's kick wasn't even able to hurt him. Now, Killua can open 5 doors but I don't think it's that different. Mini Biscuit punches did nothing to Bara while she is able to destroy Gon and Killua with a single punch. Killua lacks offensive power, this is why he uses his special yo-yo to compensate.

Strong guys like Silva can utterly destroy opponents like Cheetu with a single punch( I am not sure if he used aura or not) and he isn’t even an Enhancer. Killua has an amazing technique but he has still a lot to learn, it has its weaknesses too.

Ok i get what you mean but Netero's aura flow isn't "unreadable". I'm pretty sure the reason Meruem was able to fodderize in the end of their fight so well was bcuz he finally found it his flow after all that time. His flow may have been unreadable to most ppl but Meruem was so brilliant and used to deciphering ppl's flows he was able to learn his "unreadable" flow.

 

[Demonspeed]

I checked the two abilities and the problem is that the two abilities Killua has aren't even in the same league in terms of speed. This is an issue when an author messes with some quantity they're not familiar with and end up having it bite them. Let's talk about the time Killua stopped the dart fish. It is clear that he cannot possibly have stopped the fish without Kanmaru. The diagram shows that even if he knew the fish was going to materialize on his head, he'd still be too slow to catch it because of the time it takes his brain to send a signal through his nerves to his hand is greater than the time it'd take the fish to hit him.

You are confounding speed with reactions. Killua didn't reveal his abilities to the Siblings, they didn't know he was using electricity. The brother theorized that you should have near lightspeed to be able to catch his dart. He was right, but he was only talking about speed, only speed not reflexes, a guy with normal reflexes would need to move at llightspeed to be able to catch hit. Killua doesn't move at lightning speed, he predicted they'll aim for his head and programmed his body to react, this is Shippu Jinrai. With his movement speed and especially with his reflexes, he has been able to catch the dart. We have Meruem for example, he moves at lightspeed when using his Nen but his reflexes are not better than Killua, if he had used En he could have caught the dart even without planning their attack because he is just "that" fast. What is faster than "speed of thought" is lightspeed apparently. When he touched Knuckle, Meleoron saw him but didn't have the time to think about activating his ability. Killua would have been beaten too, he would have need to think about using Shippu Jinrai and flee, with his speed who is not a big deal against someone who moves at lightspeed. If he was able to predict Meruem's arrival, maybe his body would have reacted, I am not sure, but he would have failed again.

This means the dart fish attack is faster than the speed of thought, and since there are no known ways to speed up your nerve impulses via training, we can assume this attack is too fast for ANY human to respond to because it's faster the speed a nerve impulse travels through your body. Therefore, Killua used electricity to increase his reflex speed and bypasses the nerve impulse (which is slow). How fast is this? Well, the fish guy said you need to be faster than the speed of light to pull that off, and that's not an unreasonable first guess. Let's compare this a well-known 'extremely fast' attack, Netero's Hatsu. It is faster than the speed of sound, but usually when you say something is faster than X it is only barely faster than X, as in it'd be silly to say 'faster than sound' if his speed is Mach 10. So let's just say Netero's attack is Mach 1, which is obviously still unbelieveably fast in HXH. Is Mach 1 faster than the speed of thought? Not even close, because if it is, that'd mean his attack would hit you and you don't have time to even think about defending. That means no human opponent could possibly defend against his attack (because they can't even think about defending on time), and then he'd have never lost his '#1 aura user' title if there still isn't even a person who can even have enough time to think about defending. The fact Netero is no longer top 5 means it is certainly within HXH human limits to think and even react to a Mach 1 speed attack. Note that this doesn't mean these guys could beat him, but if they can't even respond to his attack, then Netero's ranking would've never dropped.

I don't really get your "speed of thought" argument. Actually, all reflexes are faster than that. Killua can react before because he has already thought about his opponent next move. Supersonic attacks are not a big deal in HXH. You said yourself in another thread that bullets are slightly slower than that. Then, Franklin's bullets should have that speed or maybe they are faster. Now, we have Bono, Bono has sonic attacks and stated you need to move faster than that to dodge his Jupiter. Logically speaking, Spiders who are in the same ballpark than him(Chrollo, Feitan, Phinks, Franklin, Nobunaga) should be able to move faster than sound. One of Leol's stolen attack is sonic too but Morel dodged it. It means Netero's moves are way faster than that, it was only a big deal before. We have Gotoh too, his bullet coins are faster than bullets and Hisoka caught them as if they were nothing.

Now let's see when Killua is actually fighting. We know he uses his lightning ability to avoid counterattack. This means he is actually NOT faster than the speed of thought! After all, if I can hit you before you even think about defending, how can you even counterattack? His running speed is shown to be in the 200 MPH range, which is clearly nowhere faster than the speed of thought. That's the speed of a race car and even an ordinary person can certainly have a thought of 'whoa this car is coming at me' and possibly even enough time to react (whether to any meaningful capacity is another question). That is to say, an opponent moving at 200 MPH is not very fast at all compared to a Royal Guard. Cheetu's footspeed is clocked at 160-180 KPH, and it's a speed that top humans can easily to react to. It seems unlikely that increasing it by about 50% suddenly moves your speed completely out of reacting range.

Realistically, to be faster than the speed of thought would require you to have a speed that is several multiple of the speed of sound. And that's probably the speed you'd need to make a Royal Guard feel 'this guy is ridiculously fast'. Of course, Killua's actual displayed speed is nowhere close to the speed of sound let alone a multiple of it. HXH has an obsession of not using numbers whenever possible, but here is where not using numbers leads to its downfall. Killua's speed varies from around 200 MPH (fast but nothing that'd impress a Royal Guard) to several multiples of the speed of sound (this is the amount you need to stop an attack faster than speed of thought) depending on what the plot calls for him to be doing, and yet HXH classifies Killua as just 'really fast'. No human has a chance fighting an opponent that can move at several times the speed of sound. 200 MPH, however, is no problem at all.

You can think while being hit by Kanmuru, Youpi thought, it's just that Killua had planned all his actions. You should replace "speed of thought" with "reflexes" to understand better.

Umm what? Did you miss the part wher it says he moves at the speed of lightning with kanmaru? Im pretty sure thats the amazing part. The reflexes just allow him to react to whats going on so he can actually use its ridiculous speed effectively. Even if he can only hit you eight times thats all he needs to take out phinks and even if he didn't use it he would still be faster than him and could defeat him with his lightning and yo-yo techniques.

Denkosekka means "Speed of Lightning" but it's just a name, this technique permits him to move his body very fast, that's all. If you really think Killua moves at the speed of lightning, then Tsubone too and the other Zoldycks, Zodiacs who are way, way stronger than her.

Ok i get what you mean but Netero's aura flow isn't "unreadable". I'm pretty sure the reason Meruem was able to fodderize in the end of their fight so well was bcuz he finally found it his flow after all that time. His flow may have been unreadable to most ppl but Meruem was so brilliant and used to deciphering ppl's flows he was able to learn his "unreadable" flow.

His aura flow was stated to be unreadable by Zeno. Meruem didn't read Netero's aura to beat him, he observed and found his bad habits, remember that Meruem acquired a pseudo precognition after his Gungi matches with Komugi.