Round of 16 Laxus vs. Hakune

[Zero001]

You're right.

I had assumed everyone has intel on everyone else, but then went and read the rules to find it's the opposite:

Spoiler

5. Knowledge
Participants will have no additional information about the other characters in the tournament aside from what they already know (canonically).

Gray didn't know in his first try either, or he would've obviously tried it. He probably thought about it a lot after his defeat to try and figure it out.

Laxus can win theoretically, IMO. But I doubt he can come to the realization before it's too late.
Might switch to Hakune again lol

Yes, I honestly like Laxus but in this situation I see it complicated for him

 

[Hexbend]

I agree something like changing your element slightly isn't comparable

Can Laxus going into buff form with scales and all be comparable though?
I'd think so.

Just like Gray going from his base to DeS mode with curse marks countered Hakune, Laxus going from his base to buff scales form should counter it as well. Of course nothing is confirmed, but these transformations are comparable.
Because both Gray's and Laxus' base isn't DeS magic or DS magic. Gray was gifted DeS magic, and Laxus gets it through lacrima

I'm confused isn't Laxus always using DS magic? Anyway I get what your saying but even transforming only cut the effect in half, and note the effect could of been cut in half because Gray is the Ice Devil Slayer. The form itself should give him a large boost in his already good ice resistance.

 

[grey matter]

I'm confused isn't Laxus always using DS magic? Anyway I get what your saying but even transforming only cut the effect in half, and note the effect could of been cut in half because Gray is the Ice Devil Slayer. The form itself should give him a large boost in his already good ice resistance.

For 2nd gen DS, it's different.

Like, nobody even knew Laxus or Cobra were DS until they showed they were.
The entire Battle of Fairy Tail, nobody knew Laxus was a DS until he showed it against Natsu/Gajeel, he was using his base lightning. Makarov was shocked to find out Laxus got a DS lacrima, and was wondering how Ivan got his hands into one.
Same for God Serena. The GOI didn't even know Serena was a DS, he stomped them using his base magic before Hyberion got GS with his hax.

This has been a consistent theme with the 2nd gen DS.
They have their base magic, and DS magic on top of it when they use lacrima.


Did ice resistance play a role here? I don't think so, it seemed like typical hax to me, but maybe you're right

 

[Axiomus]

Ice-Make and Devil Slaying Magic are 2 different types of magic, but they are not independent sources of magic power. They are both still derived from the same MP.

So Gray is not switching anything about his MP by entering his demonized form. He still retains the same properties of his Ice-Make Magic (can cast Ice-Make spells while he is in DeS form), but is also able to use his Devil Slaying Ice/Spells as an added benefit.

In your panels, Gray was simply transforming/reverting between his DeS mode and base form. The properties of his magic power is still the same (ethernano).

Hakune only says "changing magic power halves her freezing spirit art", but never mentions anything about Gray changing his properties from base to DeS.

Yes, neither of them tried to use a different type of magic.

But Natsu tried and failed to produce his flames, which means that his MP was completely frozen.

Gray didn't attempt to tap into his ice magic - he only made observations about his ice resistance before eventually freezing as well.

Of course they don't have independent sources of magic power. Both Ice-make and devil slaying magic use Gray's MP. Nevertheless, Gray's MP changes properties whenever he taps into devil slaying magic. Ice-Make and Devil Slaying magic have different properties. It is this change was what halved the effectiveness of Hakune's freezing.

Gray did attempt to tap into his ice-magic. Gray's resistance to ice is part of his ice-make magic. When Hakune started freezing Gray, she stopped him from using ice-make magic. That's why Gray was surprised. He thought he should have better ice resistance than most people, but Hakune was negating his magic and freezing him as if he had no resistance. Later we see Hakune start to freeze Gray again, but midway through Gray still managed to change the properties of his MP.

Spoiler

This tells us that Hakune doesn't completely freeze someone's MP reserves immediately. They have time before they're fully encased to change the MP inside their bodies.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2021 ---

The arguments are acting like swapping magic (theory) is a hard counter...when it only cuts the effectiveness in half. Doesn't help that she was still freezing Gray of all people (highest ice resistance in series) while half effective.

Not only this, but how would Laxus know a counter to Hakune's magic again??? He's never dealt with such hax or will know how to respond properly since his MP will freeze.

Hakune's ice isn't actually cold enough to overcome Gray's ice resistance. She just prevents him from using magic and having any ice-resistance in the first place. But if Gray can actually access his powers, then his ice reistance is more than enough to let him break free of her ice using brute strength. We've seen characters like Ajeel or Skullion easily break out of being frozen by Gray's ice-make: silver, which is just as good in terms of raw freezing potential as any of Hakune's attacks. So long as Laxus can still use some of his magic power, he should be able to just smash his way out.

Not being able to figuring it out fast enough is the only real roadblock for Laxus here. Which admittedly is a valid point. Laxus might simply not figure out how to counter Hakune.

 

[Biri Biri]

Of course they don't have independent sources of magic power. Both Ice-make and devil slaying magic use Gray's MP. Nevertheless, Gray's MP changes properties whenever he taps into devil slaying magic. Ice-Make and Devil Slaying magic have different properties. It is this change was what halved the effectiveness of Hakune's freezing.

Gray did attempt to tap into his ice-magic. Gray's resistance to ice is part of his ice-make magic. When Hakune started freezing Gray, she stopped him from using ice-make magic. That's why Gray was surprised. He thought he should have better ice resistance than most people, but Hakune was negating his magic and freezing him as if he had no resistance. Later we see Hakune start to freeze Gray again, but midway through Gray still managed to change the properties of his MP.

Spoiler

This tells us that Hakune doesn't completely freeze someone's MP reserves immediately. They have time before they're fully encased to change the MP inside their bodies.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2021 ---

Hakune's ice isn't actually cold enough to overcome Gray's ice resistance. She just prevents him from using magic and having any ice-resistance in the first place. But if Gray can actually access his powers, then his ice reistance is more than enough to let him break free of her ice using brute strength. We've seen characters like Ajeel or Skullion easily break out of being frozen by Gray's ice-make: silver, which is just as good in terms of raw freezing potential as any of Hakune's attacks. So long as Laxus can still use some of his magic power, he should be able to just smash his way out.

Not being able to figuring it out fast enough is the only real roadblock for Laxus here. Which admittedly is a valid point. Laxus might simply not figure out how to counter Hakune.

Largely agree with what you said.

Just like to touch on the last point. I know Laxus doesn't have much intelligence feats. However, he does have one and it's an excellent one. He correctly deduced that if Wall could tear a hole through Freed's Jutsu Shiki, then he should also possess the ability to cancel magic barrier particles. Laxus then manipulated the position of Wall to surround him within the runes he drew and cornered him into nullifying the runes and hence curing him of his sickness. To be capable of coming up with such strategy on the fly when he was under a lot of stress due to the sickness crippling him is no mean feat.

Let's not forget Laxus also has Jutsu Shiki under his disposal. He could draw them quickly without Wall's knowledge in the midst of their fight. It could be very useful too.

 

[Hexbend]

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2021 ---

Hakune's ice isn't actually cold enough to overcome Gray's ice resistance. She just prevents him from using magic and having any ice-resistance in the first place. But if Gray can actually access his powers, then his ice reistance is more than enough to let him break free of her ice using brute strength. We've seen characters like Ajeel or Skullion easily break out of being frozen by Gray's ice-make: silver, which is just as good in terms of raw freezing potential as any of Hakune's attacks. So long as Laxus can still use some of his magic power, he should be able to just smash his way out.

Not being able to figuring it out fast enough is the only real roadblock for Laxus here. Which admittedly is a valid point. Laxus might simply not figure out how to counter Hakune.

Hard disagree with Hakune's ice not being cold enough to bypass Gray resistance. Either way Laxus has no real counter in this matchup

 

[LaGOAT]

Except that's a feat for Gray someone with insane levels of cold resistance due to being an ice mage and having DeS magic on top of that.

Same can't be said for Laxus

He cold resistance is irrelevant here since both natsu and gray was frozen at the same time the first time around.

he was about to get frozen again he didn’t bust out DES.

This tournament is bloodlust so laxus isn’t gonna just let that happen he gonna bust out RL the moment he notice he can’t use his regular lighting

 

[Kurumi Tokisaki]

The amp Acno Blitzer wins. I think I missed including the amp part earlier. Nobody even pointed that out. Anyway, Hakune won't even know what hit her. How can she freeze something that she can't see?

 

[LaGOAT]

Largely agree with what you said.

Just like to touch on the last point. I know Laxus doesn't have much intelligence feats. However, he does have one and it's an excellent one. He correctly deduced that if Wall could tear a hole through Freed's Jutsu Shiki, then he should also possess the ability to cancel magic barrier particles. Laxus then manipulated the position of Wall to surround him within the runes he drew and cornered him into nullifying the runes and hence curing him of his sickness. To be capable of coming up with such strategy on the fly when he was under a lot of stress due to the sickness crippling him is no mean feat.

Let's not forget Laxus also has Jutsu Shiki under his disposal. He could draw them quickly without Wall's knowledge in the midst of their fight. It could be very useful too.

Yep I forgot about that meaning he can cancel her spells too

 

[Kurumi Tokisaki]

This tournament is bloodlust so laxus isn’t gonna just let that happen he gonna bust out RL the moment he notice he can’t use his regular lighting

Red lightning. That's an insult. Hakune won't even know what hit her.

 

[LaGOAT]

Red lightning. That's an insult. Hakune won't even know what hit her.

I know in facts I don’t think she wouldn’t able to freeze laxus cuz laxus would instantly speedblitz her the moment the battle starts. But I just give these hakune Debaters the benefit of the doubt Lol

 

[GL_Nova]

Of course they don't have independent sources of magic power. Both Ice-make and devil slaying magic use Gray's MP. Nevertheless, Gray's MP changes properties whenever he taps into devil slaying magic. Ice-Make and Devil Slaying magic have different properties. It is this change was what halved the effectiveness of Hakune's freezing.

Gray did attempt to tap into his ice-magic. Gray's resistance to ice is part of his ice-make magic. When Hakune started freezing Gray, she stopped him from using ice-make magic. That's why Gray was surprised. He thought he should have better ice resistance than most people, but Hakune was negating his magic and freezing him as if he had no resistance. Later we see Hakune start to freeze Gray again, but midway through Gray still managed to change the properties of his MP.

Spoiler

This tells us that Hakune doesn't completely freeze someone's MP reserves immediately. They have time before they're fully encased to change the MP inside their bodies.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2021 ---

Hakune's ice isn't actually cold enough to overcome Gray's ice resistance. She just prevents him from using magic and having any ice-resistance in the first place. But if Gray can actually access his powers, then his ice reistance is more than enough to let him break free of her ice using brute strength. We've seen characters like Ajeel or Skullion easily break out of being frozen by Gray's ice-make: silver, which is just as good in terms of raw freezing potential as any of Hakune's attacks. So long as Laxus can still use some of his magic power, he should be able to just smash his way out.

Not being able to figuring it out fast enough is the only real roadblock for Laxus here. Which admittedly is a valid point. Laxus might simply not figure out how to counter Hakune.

Laxus doesn’t have to figure out how to beat Hakune. Laxus already switches to DS magic when ish gets serious. Him switching to it against Hakune would be enough to break the hold.

 

[Hexbend]

He cold resistance is irrelevant here since both natsu and gray was frozen at the same time the first time around.

he was about to get frozen again he didn’t bust out DES.

This tournament is bloodlust so laxus isn’t gonna just let that happen he gonna bust out RL the moment he notice he can’t use his regular lighting

It is relevant as that DeS in itself gives Gray a huge ice resistance boost.

If we wanna go the theory and what if's route, I can simply say Gray's DeS halved the effect because of the power a demon. Which is inherently different to DS magic.

The moment he notices anything he'll already be frozen and done for...unlike Gray, Laxus won't get a second chance to correct his mistakes.

 

[GL_Nova]

It is relevant as that DeS in itself gives Gray a huge ice resistance boost.

If we wanna go the theory and what if's route, I can simply say Gray's DeS halved the effect because of the power a demon. Which is inherently different to DS magic.

The moment he notices anything he'll already be frozen and done for...unlike Gray, Laxus won't get a second chance to correct his mistakes.

Ok, so where does it suggest it’s only because of his ice resistance? Also, where does it suggest it’s specific to demon powers. Those would both be instrumental in making your argument more than just another theory. An once more convoluted than what is currently known. What unique aspect of demon power is responsible?

Haven’t we posted that panel of how long it actually took to freeze Grey enough to move past this frozen before he can react narrative? Unless you genuinely believe Grey is faster than Laxus.

 

[LaGOAT]

It is relevant as that DeS in itself gives Gray a huge ice resistance boost.

If we wanna go the theory and what if's route, I can simply say Gray's DeS halved the effect because of the power a demon. Which is inherently different to DS magic.

The moment he notices anything he'll already be frozen and done for...unlike Gray, Laxus won't get a second chance to correct his mistakes.

Again flaw logic gray have ice resistance if anything the effect would be slower than vs natsu instead they both got frozen at the same time so what does that tell? U can’t tell me that natsu has that same resistance as gray.

Yes the power of the demon is what? Curse power right? In which she said she can freeze. but couldn’t gray is during magic so..

Laxus doesn’t jab we know that since the beginning isn’t in his character he till oneshots

 

[Nemispelled]

I’m telling u it doesnt matter devil slaying magic is till magic It requires gray to use his mp so again irrelevant 2. Once gray went to Des she couldn’t freeze instantly. Im telling u laxus would the same once he goes into RL. Same with natsu in lfd/fdkm
3. She couldn’t freeze gray knights laxus just sends muitple nukes and it’s game over. Again using logic if she can freeze any mp/cp/sa then Gray should have been frozen even in DES but he wasn’t again there a limit

Well first, the fact that DeS is still magic and uses MP is exactly the definition of Hakune's hax abilities. It was shown to work on Natsu, so this is 100% evidence from the manga, no speculation at all.

Second, you can't just take a feat from Gray and all of a sudden assume that Laxus can replicate it, especially when Natsu attempted and failed in his encounter with Hakune.

Third, let me correct you: Hakune never tried to freeze Gray's knights.

There is absolutely no evidence from the chapter that shows Hakune couldn't freeze them... because she never attempted to do so in the first place.

So no, Laxus sending some lightning bolts isn't going to guarantee his victory.

On the other hand, Gray was able to counter Hakune's hax, even though the method wasn't explained clearly by their author. However, a feat is still a feat. We can't argue with what we saw from our own eyes.

 

[Hexbend]

Ok, so where does it suggest it’s only because of his ice resistance? Also, where does it suggest it’s specific to demon powers. Those would both be instrumental in making your argument more than just another theory. An once more convoluted than what is currently known. What unique aspect of demon power is responsible?

Haven’t we posted that panel of how long it actually took to freeze Grey enough to move past this frozen before he can react narrative? Unless you genuinely believe Grey is faster than Laxus.

What's unique to a demon's power? Idk maybe because Gray is the Ice DeS, gains the powers a demon, gains a natural resistance to all ice based powers and so on. Everything laxus doesn't have, yet Gray was still getting his attacks frozen casually at that.

So you think Laxus with his MP frozen is somehow gonna power out of it first time when Natsu and gray couldn't? Even though he doesn't posses a transformation similar to Gray ?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2021 ---

Again flaw logic gray have ice resistance if anything the effect would be slower than vs natsu instead they both got frozen at the same time so what does that tell? U can’t tell me that natsu has that same resistance as gray.

Yes the power of the demon is what? Curse power right? In which she said she can freeze. but couldn’t gray is during magic so..

Laxus doesn’t jab we know that since the beginning isn’t in his character he till oneshots

Flaw logic? They both frozen, that just tells me Hakune's ability is broken nothing more lmao

The ending of this sentence, I don't understand it?

I think you mean job, in which case I don't think you know what it means. The character are bloodlusted here, but not mindless. Nothing stops Hakune from assaulting Laxus with her entire arsenal off the bat with the most casual of hand waves.

 

[LaGOAT]

Well first, the fact that DeS is still magic and uses MP is exactly the definition of Hakune's hax abilities. It was shown to work on Natsu, so this is 100% evidence from the manga, no speculation at all.

Second, you can't just take a feat from Gray and all of a sudden assume that Laxus can replicate it, especially when Natsu attempted and failed in his encounter with Hakune.

Third, let me correct you: Hakune never tried to freeze Gray's knights.

There is absolutely no evidence from the chapter that shows Hakune couldn't freeze them... because she never attempted to do so in the first place.

So no, Laxus sending some lightning bolts isn't going to guarantee his victory.

On the other hand, Gray was able to counter Hakune's hax, even though the method wasn't explained clearly by their author. However, a feat is still a feat. We can't argue with what we saw from our own eyes.

Yes im telling u that he broke out of it using DES magic so it’s mean she has a limit like I said be4 by this logic she can oneshot Selene.

second yes I can because gray broke out with stronger form/mode I mean des increase his stats bro. Hakune freezing base natsu just means she can only freezing them in the base form. natsu also has a stronger mode which is lfd/ldfm unless ur saying hakune>gray>natsu then that’s a whole another debate.

third because she couldn’t lol or else she wouldn’t giving that explanation of how gray was able to break out of it and she said she was getting overwhelmed. we all know hiro does not explain stuff in for detail very well so I’m going on what we saw in the manga. Gray used DES (in which increase his power/stats) and broke out. Again laxus till oneshots/counter her hax man

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2021 ---

What's unique to a demon's power? Idk maybe because Gray is the Ice DeS, gains the powers a demon, gains a natural resistance to all ice based powers and so on. Everything laxus doesn't have, yet Gray was still getting his attacks frozen casually at that.

So you think Laxus with his MP frozen is somehow gonna power out of it first time when Natsu and gray couldn't? Even though he doesn't posses a transformation similar to Gray ?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2021 ---

Flaw logic? They both frozen, that just tells me Hakune's ability is broken nothing more lmao

The ending of this sentence, I don't understand it?

I think you mean job, in which case I don't think you know what it means. The character are bloodlusted here, but not mindless. Nothing stops Hakune from assaulting Laxus with her entire arsenal off the bat with the most casual of hand waves.

Sorry I was driving I’m saying ice resistance logic is flawed because both natsu and gray was frozen at the same time. If ice resistance was a factor then gray should have been frozen slower than natsu instead they were frozen at the same time.

Exactly which is why point they both bloodlust so laxus isn’t gonna jab laxus would speedblitz and laxus is faster than gray anyways or break out by sending multiple nukes. Her Arsenal of feats is inferior to laxus

 

[Nemispelled]

No, he failed right alongside Natsu.

It's totally different to Suzaku, because Suzaku got feats afterwards confirming his strength. If Suzaku didn't wreck Selene's anus, do you really think people wouldn't be saying the fight would've gone different if Natsu went all out with DF? Of course they would, in fact, that's still probably happening. Full power Natsu destroys Hakune, no diff, no competition. He could probably outright ignore Hakune's freezing, just no-sell it with his aura alone.

So you're saying Gray could've soloed Mard Geer lol?
Gray using Ice Clones to trick inferior opponents isn't a good enough feat to suggest he could do it to Mard Geer. By default he can't, he doesn't have the feats for it, he doesn't have the portrayal for it. Absolutely nothing in the manga even remotely suggests Gray had a chance against Mard Geer by himself, everything in the manga says the opposite.

Hakune simply doesn't have the feats for it. You saying she can do both simultaneously is giving her strength she hasn't shown. It's like me saying Laxus can just summon Thunder Palace on the spot and nuke a city, it's not something he's shown.

Laxus is faster than Hakune, so he lifts his hand first.
As for Ajeel seeing the nuke coming, Laxus literally launched it from hundreds of meters in the air, there was a massive amount of distance between the two. That said, Ajeel seeing it doesn't mean Hakune has the reaction speed to freeze it. Gray fired Ice Make Lance from like 10 meters away and it still almost hit her. That said, Hakune doesn't have the feats of freezing something of that scale and power, like Gray's Ice Knights, his nuke overwhelms her.

Sure, like I said, Gray's reaction speed is fine. Doesn't change the fact that hitting Racer while he's chasing someone else is mediocre.

And no, he didn't fail the first time because he never even tried. If you re-read the chapter, it clearly shows Gray merely making an observation about Hakune's chill overcoming his ice resistance. Not once did Gray try to counter Hakune's hax using magic.



As for Suzaku, I wouldn't be riding his hype wave just yet... I've seen plenty of characters in the past who performed "godly" feats and ended up being beaten in the most retarded way. So using feats afterwards for "confirmation" is highly unreliable and naive.

The fact is that we saw feats of both Hakune and Suzaku oneshotting Natsu, so you can't twist their feats and assume for convenience sake that Natsu tried against one, but not the other.




If you go back to my earlier post, I clearly said that "Gray needed Natsu to stall Mard Geer so that he can recover from the effects of absorbing Memento Mori"...

How does the above statement translate into anything about Gray soloing Mard Geer?? It's literally quite the opposite.

Unfortunately, I'm not as biased for my favorite characters as you think I am.

The only thing that I am cautioning you against is being 100% confident that Gray would miss his Zeroth Destruction Bow when it is surely not outside the realm of possibility.

As for Gray's ice clones, it's worked on many formidable enemies in the past, including Silver. And Silver is a superior opponent to Gray, not inferior.

Spoiler: Silver being tricked by Gray's ice clones the 1st time

Spoiler: Silver being tricked by Gray's ice clones for the 2nd time

As you can see from these panels, the ice clones tricked Silver - not just once, but twice.

And he did all this by himself without any help.

So actually, Gray does have portrayal and feats of his ice clones being able to trick opponents on the level of Mard Geer.




And I'm not sure I follow. Hakune does have feats of being able to freeze someone's MP and freeze their oncoming attacks in a matter of a split second. All it requires her to do is lift her hand and do nothing afterwards (standing still/closing her eyes). Both of which are actually supported by panels.

And just because Laxus has fast spells, it has nothing to do with him being able to "lift his hands first".

Anyone can lift their hands instantly. You don't need lightning for this, all you need is consciousness.

And sure, Laxus launched his nuke from hundreds of meters in the sky, but against Hakune, he would still have to do the same. And since Ajeel could see it coming, then so can Hakune, which gives her more than enough time to freeze the attack after lifting her hand to freeze Laxus' MP.

And of course Gray's arrows are going to be closer to Hakune... it was fired from a couple yards away. The fact that Ajeel had enough time to stare at the nuke means that Hakune definitely has enough reaction time to freeze it.

As for Gray's Ice Knights, it's not that Hakune couldn't freeze it... it's that she didn't. She never even tried to freeze the Ice Knights.



Also, in order for Racer to be hit by the spell while Gray's reaction speed was significantly slowed down, that means that the actual speed of his spell had to have been fast enough to make up for the lost time in reaction speed.

Sure, Gray had trouble when Racer was attacking him, but the fact that Gray could block Racer from chasing Natsu/Wendy by casting Rampart right in front of Racer's path speaks volume to his attack speed.

 

[Loke]

Who knows? Knowing Hiro, he'd have Laxus "nope" yet another hax that gave Team Natsu difficulties