Canon Luffy vs King

[grey matter]

G4 would break his defense. Snakeman may cause light damage, and still be defended against, but Boundman is gonna crack King’s skull…

I think our disagreements mainly come from here. I say G4 Luffy does zero damage to defense mode King, while you think otherwise

Let's address this point before moving any further. I will address other points after this particular point is addressed.

How would G4 Luffy damage defense mode King in any way?

Defense mode King took zero damage from attacks from Zoro which:
- damaged Kaido and had him scream in pain
- made BM scream to Kaido to dodge, which he did

In contrast, beginning of Wano G4 Luffy did zero damage to Kaido.

Implication here is pretty self explanatory.
King takes no damage from attacks that are much stronger than what beginning of Wano G4 Luffy can muster

 

[kkck]

IIRC marco was able to damage king while in defense mode. Though not necessarily do a ton of damage. Luffy has internal damage armor haki and conqueror haki cladding... along with boundman and snakeman giving him a pretty big speed boost. Add to that, if conqueror haki is what gave yonko their durability then odds are luffy can enjoy some measure of this. At this point I don't think a YC1 is that big a threat to luffy. Maybe an annoying fight at the most but not one with much of a chance of him losing.

 

[afromarco005]

Luffy beats Kings prettyboy face up low/mid diff.

 

[XXGenesis]

I think our disagreements mainly come from here. I say G4 Luffy does zero damage to defense mode King, while you think otherwise

Let's address this point before moving any further. I will address other points after this particular point is addressed.

How would G4 Luffy damage defense mode King in any way?

Defense mode King took zero damage from attacks from Zoro which:
- damaged Kaido and had him scream in pain
- made BM scream to Kaido to dodge, which he did

In contrast, beginning of Wano G4 Luffy did zero damage to Kaido.

Implication here is pretty self explanatory.
King takes no damage from attacks that are much stronger than what beginning of Wano G4 Luffy can muster

The **Ambiguity of King’s limit in Defense mode, When Marco hurt him. Yet Zoro’s techniques that worked on Kaido didn’t. So very ambiguous to its limit.

*G4 Boundman >/= Marco AP VS King/Queen IMO

King won’t be staying in defense mode because he doesn’t fight like that, he has a superiority complex against humans.
King not staying in his defensive form, he has a superior complex over humans; He’ll use his speed form and that can be taken advantage off.

He’ll use his speed mode, and either way he’s dodgeable with ACoO or not. so it’s not like his fighting style is so superior where Luffy won’t be able to dodge, and counter attack. Luffy isn’t fighting a uphill battle here, it’s more of an even battlewith Luffy having more tools in his tool box than King does.

There’s no way Luffy would lose to King After WCI. King has good abilities but wasn’t that great at CQC, he mostly Overpowered Zoro rather than out skill him…Luffy is the better CQC & his DF mastery allows him, movement, attack speed, that King is going to have a hard time with.

 

[grey matter]

The **Ambiguity of King’s limit in Defense mode, When Marco hurt him. Yet Zoro’s techniques that worked on Kaido didn’t. So very ambiguous to its limit.

*G4 Boundman >/= Marco AP VS King/Queen IMO

Only three possible explanations here:

1. Marco's flames countered King's flames, and hence bypassed his defense mode
This is the most logical explanation IMO

2. Oda didn't think through King's abilities back then

3. Marco hits MUCH higher harder than pre advanced conqueror's Zoro
Unlikely, but if the other two aren't the explanation, this HAS to be.
In this case, beginning of Wano G4 Boundman doesn't hit anywhere as hard as Marco. Since Marco's AP >> rooftop Zoro's attack power >> beginning of Wano Luffy's attack power



We have feats of King no selling THESE attacks:

Spoiler

It is a fact that, say chapter 1032 Zoro, hits much harder than beginning of Wano Luffy. Hope we can at least agree on this, regardless of what MArco did.
IF King can no sell these attacks, he easily no sells attacks which did zero damage to Luffy.

King won’t be staying in defense mode because he doesn’t fight like that, he has a superiority complex against humans.
King not staying in his defensive form, he has a superior complex over humans; He’ll use his speed form and that can be taken advantage off.

In these fights, we won't consider CIS usually.

This is also why we say Katakuri > beginning of Wano Luffy, cause no CIS = Katakuri wins.

There’s no way Luffy would lose to King After WCI. King has good abilities but wasn’t that great at CQC, he mostly Overpowered Zoro rather than out skill him…Luffy is the better CQC & his DF mastery allows him, movement, attack speed, that King is going to have a hard time with.

Why won't he lose to King after WCI?
King needs completely different skillset to beat that Katakuri.

Zoro was mostly on the defensive and getting overwhelmed by King when he was in his Hybrid/Zoan mode. If it was just pure power and no CQC, Zoro wouldn't have much issues
Pretty safe to say King's CQC is >= Zoro's

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2022 ---

Beginning of Wano Luffy was NOT YC1 tier

He was above YC2, but not at YC1 level yet

First commanders are not there just because of their superior stats. But also because they are "special" in some way.

Luffy learned future sight to counter Katakuri's fighting style.


We have to understand that Katakuri isn't YC1 just because of future sight. But because future sight synchronize extremely well with a logia-esque body. It's future sight in combination with this body, that makes him insane in CQC.
Not only does Luffy have weaker future sight, but also doesn't have a body which synchronize with future sight as well. Not to mention, having slightly weaker armament and general stats relative to Katakuri as well.

Katakuri lost because of a combination of:
- slowly losing his will to fight + no actual loyalty to his captain
- CIS
- Luffy's unreal endurance + willpower

 

[XXGenesis]

Only three possible explanations here:

1. Marco's flames countered King's flames, and hence bypassed his defense mode
This is the most logical explanation IMO

2. Oda didn't think through King's abilities back then

3. Marco hits MUCH higher harder than pre advanced conqueror's Zoro
Unlikely, but if the other two aren't the explanation, this HAS to be.
In this case, beginning of Wano G4 Boundman doesn't hit anywhere as hard as Marco. Since Marco's AP >> rooftop Zoro's attack power >> beginning of Wano Luffy's attack power



We have feats of King no selling THESE attacks:

Spoiler

It is a fact that, say chapter 1032 Zoro, hits much harder than beginning of Wano Luffy. Hope we can at least agree on this, regardless of what MArco did.
IF King can no sell these attacks, he easily no sells attacks which did zero damage to Luffy.



In these fights, we won't consider CIS usually.

This is also why we say Katakuri > beginning of Wano Luffy, cause no CIS = Katakuri wins.




Why won't he lose to King after WCI?
King needs completely different skillset to beat that Katakuri.

Zoro was mostly on the defensive and getting overwhelmed by King when he was in his Hybrid/Zoan mode. If it was just pure power and no CQC, Zoro wouldn't have much issues
Pretty safe to say King's CQC is >= Zoro's

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2022 ---

Beginning of Wano Luffy was NOT YC1 tier

He was above YC2, but not at YC1 level yet

First commanders are not there just because of their superior stats. But also because they are "special" in some way.

Luffy learned future sight to counter Katakuri's fighting style.


We have to understand that Katakuri isn't YC1 just because of future sight. But because future sight synchronize extremely well with a logia-esque body. It's future sight in combination with this body, that makes him insane in CQC.
Not only does Luffy have weaker future sight, but also doesn't have a body which synchronize with future sight as well. Not to mention, having slightly weaker armament and general stats relative to Katakuri as well.

Katakuri lost because of a combination of:
- slowly losing his will to fight + no actual loyalty to his captain
- CIS
- Luffy's unreal endurance + willpower

I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree. I understand and get your points, I really do. But because of Power scailing in Wano is all over the place. & different perspectives can she drawn from multiple happenings…From Rooftop, etc…We simply have different perspectives on Luffy’s limits & King’s limit.

*Marco flames could be a factor;But it’s Way too ambiguous for readers to connect that to anything;
* Marco could just hit harder than Rooftop Zoro’s attacks on Kaido; Very possible but lies slight inconsistency of what it King’s Defensive limit ;

Why?? King was invulnerable vs Zoro whether he had ACoC or not, Zoro’s attacks works & only attacked while King was in offense mode…

I’ve read the chapter countless times, everytime when I make this statement, I go re-read it just to be sure . King is not illustrated with his flames on when Zoro landed his Two attacks that did damage…Zoro’s statement as to why King is dodging also makes no sense as King is in defensive mode but is never shown to be damaged in this form throughout their fight and he literally just previously said makes no sense to attack him in defense mode

…Aside from Marco…So it’s all very inconsistent….I don’t wanna Believe Oda didn’t think or forgot about King’s constitution when fighting Marco.

As for Luffy we don’t get any real measure because he’s defeated by Kaido & immediately starts to train to become stronger. However, I think a glimpse of the rooftop would be the answer with Luffy fighting much more calmly so his ACoO is going to work, take away the Acoa, he’s still a threat greater than King. His G4 would OP King imo….

If it were Marco or Ben Beckman or Katakuri again, I would say Luffy would lose…but not to King.

CIS is fair if the character is stupid. King isn’t stupid but he isn’t smart & savy. Katakuri didn’t have CIS. Flowing Mochi should have killed Luffy/ The Whole flampe; injuring himself was part of the narrative & he’s honorable/ Falling back letting Luffy win was more PIS than CIS. Because Luffy always won the battle over Katakuri mentally, he wasn’t challenging Luffy anymore as Luffy already proved him wrong.

 

[grey matter]

I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree. I understand and get your points, I really do. But because of Power scailing in Wano is all over the place. & different perspectives can she drawn from multiple happenings…From Rooftop, etc…We simply have different perspectives on Luffy’s limits & King’s limit.

*Marco flames could be a factor;But it’s Way too ambiguous for readers to connect that to anything;
* Marco could just hit harder than Rooftop Zoro’s attacks on Kaido; Very possible but lies slight inconsistency of what it King’s Defensive limit ;

Why?? King was invulnerable vs Zoro whether he had ACoC or not, Zoro’s attacks works & only attacked while King was in offense mode…

I’ve read the chapter countless times, everytime when I make this statement, I go re-read it just to be sure . King is not illustrated with his flames on when Zoro landed his Two attacks that did damage…Zoro’s statement as to why King is dodging also makes no sense as King is in defensive mode but is never shown to be damaged in this form throughout their fight and he literally just previously said makes no sense to attack him in defense mode

…Aside from Marco…So it’s all very inconsistent….I don’t wanna Believe Oda didn’t think or forgot about King’s constitution when fighting Marco.

As for Luffy we don’t get any real measure because he’s defeated by Kaido & immediately starts to train to become stronger. However, I think a glimpse of the rooftop would be the answer with Luffy fighting much more calmly so his ACoO is going to work, take away the Acoa, he’s still a threat greater than King. His G4 would OP King imo….

If it were Marco or Ben Beckman or Katakuri again, I would say Luffy would lose…but not to King.

CIS is fair if the character is stupid. King isn’t stupid but he isn’t smart & savy. Katakuri didn’t have CIS. Flowing Mochi should have killed Luffy/ The Whole flampe; injuring himself was part of the narrative & he’s honorable/ Falling back letting Luffy win was more PIS than CIS. Because Luffy always won the battle over Katakuri mentally, he wasn’t challenging Luffy anymore as Luffy already proved him wrong.

I agree that the fights and powerscaling in the raid has been generally speaking, wack, to put it mildly.

I suppose we will have to wait till anime to see if Zoro can actually damage King in his defense mode before the final attack.
Considering how rushed the raid has been, I'll just go ahead and consider all the anime fights canon. I believe Oda is relying on the anime to do the job for him, since I think he wants to finish Wano fast.
Some of the anime stuff in Wano arc not present in manga are already canon - like RS Sanji vs Page One, revealing Page One's fate; who the 1% survival guy is etc


IMO, Zoro certainly can damage King in his defense mode, hence King blocking and dodging. As to why/how King knows, likely due to experience with Kaido.
Plus, King is in his defense form whenever he uses fire attacks. As shown below:

Spoiler

Which means, the final attack from Zoro, which clipped King's wing, was when King was in his defense mode


Regardless of what Marco vs King shows - what Marco's attack power is, whether his blue flames played a role, whether Oda didn't have the accurate idea about King's powers etc.
I think we can both agree chapter 1032 Zoro's attack power is much higher than beginning of Wano Luffy's ?
If yes, King has feats taking zero damage from attacks much stronger than beginning of Wano Luffy's. I don't understand the ambiguity here, the comparison here is between post rooftop (but pre advanced conqueror's) Zoro vs beginning of Wano Luffy.

Let's consider the possibility that King's defense mode might have a limit, even apart from advanced conqueror's.
The limit, if it exists, is factually above anything current Zoro (without advanced conqueror's) can muster. Which means, anyone who doesn't have advanced conqueror's and has attack power on or below current Zoro, will do zero damage to King in his defense mode.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Never seen a fight this loopsided on the votes in this forum, some fanboy always voted for his idol.

Guess the bans did play out after all huh.

 

[XXGenesis]

King’s Lunarian abilities of invulnerability,Speed & Fire/Magma isn’t fleshed out too well. Whether ACOC was needed for Zoro to win even after figuring out his ability is not completely suggested either.

In some reflection @grey matter King may be able to defeat Luffy in a high-extreme Diff beginning of Wano

 

[grey matter]

King’s Lunarian abilities of invulnerability,Speed & Fire/Magma isn’t fleshed out too well. Whether ACOC was needed for Zoro to win even after figuring out his ability is not completely suggested either.

In some reflection @grey matter King may be able to defeat Luffy in a high-extreme Diff beginning of Wano

Yeah, it was too rushed.

Was advanced conqueror's needed for Zoro to win after figuring out the ability?
Absolutely.

What would Zoro even do if King decided to stay in defense mode forever?
It isn't like King's defense mode is slow or something, that he's forced into offense mode to get hits on Zoro. In fact, defense mode King is above in all stats except attack power, once he uses his hybrid/zoan form

 

[john ellis]

luffy is protrayed pretty equally to kaido, and kaido was capable of 1 shotting a luffy who high dif'd a YC1, it's likely g4 luffy would one shot king defense mode or not.

base luffy low dif
g4 luffy no dif