Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Orion]

Lmao, more than points. it is fun tht still a bit of interest is shown by few people in discussions. By now, i thought it would have gone into relics with noone interested at all.Thanks man

Agree. I binged Naruto last year to avoid fillers, so it's fun to still find people interested in discussing

 

[Rikudou King]

Well, i would consider Nagato who had Red hair and who fought naruto...start from there.

Then we're talking a Nagato who was nearly on Itachi/Madara level of OP. His only two weaknesses would appear to be genjutsu and speed, and even then the latter could be seen as questionable given how he performed against Naruto and Kirabi. So Sasuke has two advantages, but Nagato has far more that Sasuke really wouldn't have a defense against apart from outright evasion.

 

[lakhan220]

Then we're talking a Nagato who was nearly on Itachi/Madara level of OP. His only two weaknesses would appear to be genjutsu and speed, and even then the latter could be seen as questionable given how he performed against Naruto and Kirabi. So Sasuke has two advantages, but Nagato has far more that Sasuke really wouldn't have a defense against apart from outright evasion.

3rd weakness - Immobile which is the greatest factor to consider when against uchiha since joint vision achieved through the support summoning and such can be rendered useless easily by EMS sasuke using shuriken jutsu. He cannot use pains too. And not just tht, the sheer magnitude of the size of sussano itself too. (Btw, the 8 tails kyuubi captured was nowhere close to the released 9 tails full power from cage), so magnitude of attack used in FBS would even render chibaku useless.

And yeah, nagato has the path advantages, but not sure it would work tht well against EMS sasuke who fought juubito with rinnegan.

Oh, btw, tht nagato would be at itachi's or above itachi's level, but nowhere even close to maddy's level.

 

[Rikudou King]

3rd weakness - Immobile which is the greatest factor to consider when against uchiha since joint vision achieved through the support summoning and such can be rendered useless easily by EMS sasuke using shuriken jutsu. He cannot use pains too. And not just tht, the sheer magnitude of the size of sussano itself too. (Btw, the 8 tails kyuubi captured was nowhere close to the released 9 tails full power from cage), so magnitude of attack used in FBS would even render chibaku useless.

And yeah, nagato has the path advantages, but not sure it would work tht well against EMS sasuke who fought juubito with rinnegan.

Oh, btw, tht nagato would be at itachi's or above itachi's level, but nowhere even close to maddy's level.

Red-hair Nagato really doesn't have an immobility issue, so he wouldn't be as reliant upon his summonings nor require other bodies being employed. Susanoo, regardless of it's size, is only chakra, and against someone who can absorb chakra, it's questionable how much of a threat it'll pose. Not to mention, with it being established that the user can be pulled out of Susanoo with the right trick, depending on how the Deva path ability works, Susanoo might not be as effective as usual.

The difference would be Nagato has been shown using the various Path abilities solo, whereas Obito really did nothing with the Rinnegan aside from needlessly controlling some other bodies. And I would argue that a good half of the things that make Madara OP are due to having the Rinnegan, which Nagato also has. Plus the ability to instantly kill someone with just a touch is clearly pretty top tier.

 

[Orion]

@lakhan220, let's see whose visual prowess is greater in this Mafia Game

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 11, 2020 ---

@lakhan220 for you, so you can write essays for your man. Don't just say Maddy because Maddy

@MUIMadara, @Rikudou King
@Holt if interested and still among the living XD

EMS Sasuke vs MS Madara(before Izuna death)

Guy(6th gate) vs Kakashi(No double MS)

 

[Ramen]

EMS Sasuke vs MS Madara(before Izuna death)

Madara ezy

 

[Orion]

Madara ezy

This is ground-breaking analysis

 

[Holt]

@lakhan220, let's see whose visual prowess is greater in this Mafia Game

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 11, 2020 ---

@lakhan220 for you, so you can write essays for your man. Don't just say Maddy because Maddy

@MUIMadara, @Rikudou King
@Holt if interested and still among the living XD

EMS Sasuke vs MS Madara(before Izuna death)

Guy(6th gate) vs Kakashi(No double MS)

Well EMS Sasuke was more or less getting tossed by the Kages at the kage summit. Madara more or less solo'd the kages. It's not a fully accurate depiction since it was Edo + Hashirama boosted but he didn't use his complete body susano until later and the clones weren't needed, he just wanted to toy with them.
Madara would still take this fight.


Guy and Kakashi are supposed to be rivals but the gates are such a massive boost. 6th gate feels like it'd have too much offensive/explosive power for Kakashi to deal with (unless I'm forgetting something)

Both of these fights seem like mid-diff wins

 

[Orion]

Well EMS Sasuke was more or less getting tossed by the Kages at the kage summit. Madara more or less solo'd the kages. It's not a fully accurate depiction since it was Edo + Hashirama boosted but he didn't use his complete body susano until later and the clones weren't needed, he just wanted to toy with them.
Madara would still take this fight.

Correction, that was MS Sasuke at the kage summit. The kage did put a heavy number on him and he only survived due to Susanoo and Amaterasu flame control. On the other hand, Madara had EMS/Rinnegan, Perfect Susanoo, and wood style when he stomped them.

I know most would pick Madara because it's Madara, but I find the matchup intriguing. Madara never showed a unique MS ability like Amaterasu, and he's limited because in this matchup he has MS not EMS.

Guy and Kakashi are supposed to be rivals but the gates are such a massive boost. 6th gate feels like it'd have too much offensive/explosive power for Kakashi to deal with (unless I'm forgetting something)

I know 7 gates Guy was able to overpower Kisame, pretty impressive since it was in water too. And I have Kisame above the Kakashi in the scenario. There is a massive boost from one gate to the next, so that's why I think 6th gate Guy would be a fair matchup. I'm biased towards Guy, so I think he would take it high diff.

 

[Rikudou King]

EMS Sasuke vs MS Madara(before Izuna death)

Odds would likely be in Madara's favor from what we have been told. Madara, even at that point, was seemingly only rivaled by Hashirama, which says quite a bit about how powerful he was since Hashirama likely didn't get any power boosts after that point. And really the only difference between MS and EMS is the threat of blindness, which isn't an issue in a single battle (Heck, Itachi went nearly a decade going blind and it didn't seem to hamper his skills in any way). So their doujutsus would likely render them equal, and it would come down to physical skills and experience, both of which Madara has the advantage in.

Guy(6th gate) vs Kakashi(No double MS)

I would say Gai - He already knows how to fight against a Sharingan, and he has the stamina to outlast Kakashi. In addition, Kakashi's main tricks really wouldn't be that effective against a taijutsu user. Kakashi's only real tactic would be try to distract and trick Gai, with something like a clone or going underground, but I don't think Gai would fall for such tactics.

 

[Orion]

Odds would likely be in Madara's favor from what we have been told. Madara, even at that point, was seemingly only rivaled by Hashirama, which says quite a bit about how powerful he was since Hashirama likely didn't get any power boosts after that point. And really the only difference between MS and EMS is the threat of blindness, which isn't an issue in a single battle (Heck, Itachi went nearly a decade going blind and it didn't seem to hamper his skills in any way). So their doujutsus would likely render them equal, and it would come down to physical skills and experience, both of which Madara has the advantage in.

I always found it funny that whenever Madara showed up with a new power up, Hashi still maintained his edge, like he was holding back to bring his level close to Madara's. Similar to Goku not unveiling SS3 to Vegeta. Yeah I said it @lakhan220, lol. With regards to the fight, Madara is a brawler, peak fighting instinct, >>>Sasuke there. The advantage with the EMS here is Sasuke Susanoo and able to spam Amaterasu. If the battle is drawn out, then the drawbacks of just MS will show. What I'm most interested in this fight is Madara countering Sasukes kagesutchi and susanoo.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 24, 2020 ---

@Drayenko saw you lurking a couple times, wanna share your thoughts?

 

[lakhan220]

@lakhan220, let's see whose visual prowess is greater in this Mafia Game

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 11, 2020 ---

@lakhan220 for you, so you can write essays for your man. Don't just say Maddy because Maddy

@MUIMadara, @Rikudou King
@Holt if interested and still among the living XD

EMS Sasuke vs MS Madara(before Izuna death)

Guy(6th gate) vs Kakashi(No double MS)

Just because maddy is kinda good argument too, but thanks btw. U remembered the discussion.

Now, as for EMS sasuke vs MS Madara, EMS Sasuke by end was way buffed up or let's say during the fight against God tree and also against Juubito. Here, in terms of magnitude,almost both are equal + Experience goes to Madara , but the overuse of eyes is not in madara's favor. And i don't think we know much of madara in MS except he used to counter deep forest emergence and other techs of hashirama with tht + Fire style.

Based on tht, i would like to give this to madara because he has more things weighing in his favor than sasuke.
Better fire style, Better experience with eyes,better taijutsu, Almost same size sussano as sasuke. But long fight is not in his favor.


Guy (6th gate) vs kakashi, let's see. If it is a head on fight, gai wins, but knowing kaakshi, he would be using diversion and deceptions to trick guy. As far as speec is concerned, we had tht really funny race when kkashi became hokage where guy had gone in 6th gate, the speed was a bit above kakashi, but too long staying in tht mode is tolling on gai's body too. Another instance we had was in anime only perhaps when they fought back to back against 2 fames kiri shinobi with blades...where gai's speed in 6th, kakashi could match it.
If it is a fair head on fight, gai may take this, else kakashi may . He would take advantage of gai not being able to use ninjutsu to set up traps and such + clones and those too...Most probs, kakashi may leave clone fighting and while gai defeats it, kaakshi would leave since he is least interested in this fight.

Now in all seriousness, if they duke it out, then kakashi also has MS...which does take longer to access and while using it, it would not harm guy much except trap him for moments.....and both get tired and passed out. Because before kaakshi uses MS, he would have fairly forced guy in tht mode to overwork himself. To me, it is a tie basically 6th gate vs kakashi, mainly due to kakashi not being guy to straight duke it out + being in anbu and very successful also gives him tht deception edge which is pretty much against guy.

7th gate is another story though.

I always found it funny that whenever Madara showed up with a new power up, Hashi still maintained his edge, like he was holding back to bring his level close to Madara's. Similar to Goku not unveiling SS3 to Vegeta. Yeah I said it @lakhan220, lol. With regards to the fight, Madara is a brawler, peak fighting instinct, >>>Sasuke there. The advantage with the EMS here is Sasuke Susanoo and able to spam Amaterasu. If the battle is drawn out, then the drawbacks of just MS will show. What I'm most interested in this fight is Madara countering Sasukes kagesutchi and susanoo.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 24, 2020 ---

@Drayenko saw you lurking a couple times, wanna share your thoughts?

Yep, hashi always had tht edge until their final battle where hashi got shinsuu senju and maddy got kyuubi.......he made hashi use so much of his chakra + keep shinsuu senju and also his wooden golem bound to kyuubi and he had his sussano broken and from there it was them duking it out old style where they were pretty much equal. Like, we also saw hashi almost fainted post maddy death which shows by end, maddy did found counter and equalizer to balance their powers . Hashi only got tht very slight edge which btw could have been reversed had maddy gone for izanagi at tht moment, but he didn't and fought for just purely his enjoyment and to take hashi's chakra or DNA.......ffs, he could have found another method if he just wanted DNA....he wanted to have fun while having it and test his powers too and thus he went there like a boss having the BANG way to even get tht DNA

 

[Rikudou King]

I always found it funny that whenever Madara showed up with a new power up, Hashi still maintained his edge, like he was holding back to bring his level close to Madara's. Similar to Goku not unveiling SS3 to Vegeta. Yeah I said it @lakhan220, lol. With regards to the fight, Madara is a brawler, peak fighting instinct, >>>Sasuke there. The advantage with the EMS here is Sasuke Susanoo and able to spam Amaterasu. If the battle is drawn out, then the drawbacks of just MS will show. What I'm most interested in this fight is Madara countering Sasukes kagesutchi and susanoo.

Well don't forget, Madara was a battle maniac - We saw that with his fight with the Kages, that Madara also has the habit of holding back to actually enjoy the fight. His reaction to Hashirama showing up during the war was priceless. So I would say it's questionable if, aside from their last battle, either of them ever fought all out. Especially since, besides each other, there probably weren't that many opponents who they would ever have to fight serious against. Madara was wrecking an entire army with just his basic abilities...

Avoiding Kagetsuchi would likely come down to speed, ala the Fourth Raikage, and I'm betting that Madara is faster then Sasuke. Now that I think about it, we never got to see a Susanoo against another Susanoo... I suppose Madara's only options would be either to try and break through with raw strength, or attempt to outlast Sasuke chakra-wise.

 

[Orion]

Yep, hashi always had tht edge until their final battle where hashi got shinsuu senju and maddy got kyuubi.......he made hashi use so much of his chakra + keep shinsuu senju and also his wooden golem bound to kyuubi and he had his sussano broken and from there it was them duking it out old style where they were pretty much equal. Like, we also saw hashi almost fainted post maddy death which shows by end, maddy did found counter and equalizer to balance their powers . Hashi only got tht very slight edge which btw could have been reversed had maddy gone for izanagi at tht moment, but he didn't and fought for just purely his enjoyment and to take hashi's chakra or DNA.......ffs, he could have found another method if he just wanted DNA....he wanted to have fun while having it and test his powers too and thus he went there like a boss having the BANG way to even get tht DNA

I see it that Madara had the Kyuubi with him and buffed with Susanoo. Hashi in sage mode with his own power (shinsuu senju) dwarfed and overpowered them, and restrained the kyuubi with the golem. Then, he duked it out with Madara, even though sharinghan users have a huge adv. in cqc combat. Hashi was straight flexin, lol.

But yeah you're right, Madara could've obtained the DNA through easier means, lol. Madara stayed true to his nindo.

And i don't think we know much of madara in MS except he used to counter deep forest emergence and other techs of hashirama with tht + Fire style.

What are your thoughts on Kishi not showing Madara special MS ability? You could say it'd be overkill, but he was already OP as hell, lol.

Well don't forget, Madara was a battle maniac - We saw that with his fight with the Kages, that Madara also has the habit of holding back to actually enjoy the fight. His reaction to Hashirama showing up during the war was priceless. So I would say it's questionable if, aside from their last battle, either of them ever fought all out. Especially since, besides each other, there probably weren't that many opponents who they would ever have to fight serious against. Madara was wrecking an entire army with just his basic abilities...

Avoiding Kagetsuchi would likely come down to speed, ala the Fourth Raikage, and I'm betting that Madara is faster then Sasuke. Now that I think about it, we never got to see a Susanoo against another Susanoo... I suppose Madara's only options would be either to try and break through with raw strength, or attempt to outlast Sasuke chakra-wise.

Also, they went all out after Izunas death. Hashi and Madara fought for what a half day/full day. But yeah, I agree with your point about him testing his opponents to see if they're worth the battle. He almost risked his plan just so he could go at it with Hashirama again, lol.

About Kagesutchi, you're right about speed. But with EMS, he's a lot more efficent and can spam, whereas he had drawbacks with just MS against Raikage. Though Madara is on another planet from Raikage, so I wouldn't put past him on overcoming it. Also, true on the Susanoo head to head. If it was just down to Susanoo brawl, I would give the advantage to Sasuke. But I think Madara could break through it, as we saw the kages do so to Madara's PS. In the end, I'd bet on Madara taking it high diff.

 

[Rikudou King]

Also, they went all out after Izunas death. Hashi and Madara fought for what a half day/full day. But yeah, I agree with your point about him testing his opponents to see if they're worth the battle. He almost risked his plan just so he could go at it with Hashirama again, lol.

About Kagesutchi, you're right about speed. But with EMS, he's a lot more efficent and can spam, whereas he had drawbacks with just MS against Raikage. Though Madara is on another planet from Raikage, so I wouldn't put past him on overcoming it. Also, true on the Susanoo head to head. If it was just down to Susanoo brawl, I would give the advantage to Sasuke. But I think Madara could break through it, as we saw the kages do so to Madara's PS. In the end, I'd bet on Madara taking it high diff.

Madara would also have the advantage of the Sharingan's prediction, so his odds of avoiding being hit would be greater then the advantage the Raikage had.

I don't know. Sasuke would have the advantage of range with his Susanoo, but Madara has the advantage of time - He has a crazy amount of chakra as far as we've seen, meaning he could rely on Susanoo longer then Sasuke could. I also don't know about breaking Sasuke's Susanoo like the Kages did - Tsunade used her insane strength to do so, but the mechanics behind that isn't that complected so it's not like it couldn't be employed by another.

 

[Orion]

I don't know. Sasuke would have the advantage of range with his Susanoo, but Madara has the advantage of time - He has a crazy amount of chakra as far as we've seen, meaning he could rely on Susanoo longer then Sasuke could. I also don't know about breaking Sasuke's Susanoo like the Kages did - Tsunade used her insane strength to do so, but the mechanics behind that isn't that complected so it's not like it couldn't be employed by another.

Being that both are Indra reincarnations, wouldn't they have similar chakra levels in this situation? The Madara we saw in the 4th war was buffed by the Hashi face and then sage mode. If the chakra levels are in the same ballpark, Madara shouldn't be able to win in a head to head susanoo battle, Sasuke's is superior, buffed with kagutsuchi, and eyes are unaffected. But, like you said, Madara could find another way to break through in the course of battle

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2020 ---

Also speaking of chakra levels, what have they done to adult Sasuke, lmao. Every fight or situation, Sasuke: "I'm out of chakra"

 

[Rikudou King]

Being that both are Indra reincarnations, wouldn't they have similar chakra levels in this situation? The Madara we saw in the 4th war was buffed by the Hashi face and then sage mode. If the chakra levels are in the same ballpark, Madara shouldn't be able to win in a head to head susanoo battle, Sasuke's is superior, buffed with kagutsuchi, and eyes are unaffected. But, like you said, Madara could find another way to break through in the course of battle

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2020 ---

Also speaking of chakra levels, what have they done to adult Sasuke, lmao. Every fight or situation, Sasuke: "I'm out of chakra"

I don't think the reincarnations would affect that. We've seen several times Sasuke reaching his limits chakra-wise, both during part one and part two. Madara meanwhile lasted against a Senju, a group specifically noted for their large amount of chakra, for a whole day. Not to mention Madara was capable of summoning the Kyuubi, which according to the rules we were told, would take a large amount of chakra. So from all that we've seen, their chakra levels should be quite far apart.

That kind of makes sense. The Sharingan, while mitigated in a full-blooded Uchiha, was still suppose to be draining. We saw that with Itachi, who had to be precise with his techniques due to his own low chakra. Sasuke has more then Itachi had, but Sasuke also likes to use pretty flashy techniques.

 

[lakhan220]

I see it that Madara had the Kyuubi with him and buffed with Susanoo. Hashi in sage mode with his own power (shinsuu senju) dwarfed and overpowered them, and restrained the kyuubi with the golem. Then, he duked it out with Madara, even though sharinghan users have a huge adv. in cqc combat. Hashi was straight flexin, lol.

But yeah you're right, Madara could've obtained the DNA through easier means, lol. Madara stayed true to his nindo.




What are your thoughts on Kishi not showing Madara special MS ability? You could say it'd be overkill, but he was already OP as hell, lol.



Also, they went all out after Izunas death. Hashi and Madara fought for what a half day/full day. But yeah, I agree with your point about him testing his opponents to see if they're worth the battle. He almost risked his plan just so he could go at it with Hashirama again, lol.

About Kagesutchi, you're right about speed. But with EMS, he's a lot more efficent and can spam, whereas he had drawbacks with just MS against Raikage. Though Madara is on another planet from Raikage, so I wouldn't put past him on overcoming it. Also, true on the Susanoo head to head. If it was just down to Susanoo brawl, I would give the advantage to Sasuke. But I think Madara could break through it, as we saw the kages do so to Madara's PS. In the end, I'd bet on Madara taking it high diff.

1- He controlled kyuubi with his EMS, which means he was expending chakra doing it, summoning it and keeping it under summon technique. It is pretty much the same as u summoning the toads and other beasts and how it depends on the amt of chakra u spend for summoning. So, u can very much say Madara using sussano = hashirama's golem. hashirama summoning Shinsuu senju = Madara summoning kyuubi + keeping it under control with genjutsu. SO, they r basically their own power in its own right.
2- Even so, Kyuubi has more chakra than anything in existence bar juubi......but the fact maddy was not jin meant he cannot use kyuubi's power to full potential like naruto did. Or like how obito and madara could not use juubi unless they became jin. See how shinsuuseju + golem both were put to hold kyuubi in place and keep on absorbing the chakra kyuubi would knead. Counter to hashirama's huge chakra reserves
And in CQC combat, if maddy had Sharingan, hashirama had the automatic healing....and their end showed tht hashirama still had wounds which did not heal meaning madara really brought him to his utmost limit. Tht is why i said only slight edge by end.

So, kinda, own power vs kyuubi power is a bit of an underrating maddy's powers there.

Sasuke can spam kagetsuchi, but it still consumes chakra , so at some point he has gotta run out of it. and maddy has more experience + chakra compared to sasuke at tht point in time. he even has speed able to dodge tobi's teleportation.

My man had special rinnegan abilities , but no EMS ones....feels sad.

Being that both are Indra reincarnations, wouldn't they have similar chakra levels in this situation? The Madara we saw in the 4th war was buffed by the Hashi face and then sage mode. If the chakra levels are in the same ballpark, Madara shouldn't be able to win in a head to head susanoo battle, Sasuke's is superior, buffed with kagutsuchi, and eyes are unaffected. But, like you said, Madara could find another way to break through in the course of battle

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2020 ---

Also speaking of chakra levels, what have they done to adult Sasuke, lmao. Every fight or situation, Sasuke: "I'm out of chakra"

Naah, if tht was so, other reincarnations would have awakened the rinnegan...it is basically the age in which they were born and the way they grew up. ,Maddy was born in age of strife at pinnacle where he progressed the best Sasuke was rather born in the age of peace, so he has less experience and which he made slowly under oorchimaru.

Sure, by end, sasuke had surpassed madara by quite a bit of margin. But conventionally, madara has more chakra than sasuke. With EMS, he had full sussano, summons kyuubi, controls it, fights hashirama, hashirama captures kyuubi and releases control, but (Not summoning itself), meaning both had dead locked each other for chakra consumptions while CQCing each other. And as we know, maddy died,kyuubi captured. at some point in future, once again kyuubi went on rampage and hashi realized he can no longer let it run wild....was sealed and then as we know is history.
Sasuke didn't have tht many achievements with only his EMS......he had them later when he had rinnegan. tht is why i would like to think MS maddy would pretty much tangle it out with EMS sasuke and beat him by a bit of a margin.

And don't remind me adult sasuke . he has gotten better with jutsu executions , but his chakra runs out pretty fast , Well, let's give him a pass since he is facing ootsusukis.

 

[Orion]

1- He controlled kyuubi with his EMS, which means he was expending chakra doing it, summoning it and keeping it under summon technique. It is pretty much the same as u summoning the toads and other beasts and how it depends on the amt of chakra u spend for summoning. So, u can very much say Madara using sussano = hashirama's golem. hashirama summoning Shinsuu senju = Madara summoning kyuubi + keeping it under control with genjutsu. SO, they r basically their own power in its own right.
2- Even so, Kyuubi has more chakra than anything in existence bar juubi......but the fact maddy was not jin meant he cannot use kyuubi's power to full potential like naruto did. Or like how obito and madara could not use juubi unless they became jin. See how shinsuuseju + golem both were put to hold kyuubi in place and keep on absorbing the chakra kyuubi would knead. Counter to hashirama's huge chakra reserves
And in CQC combat, if maddy had Sharingan, hashirama had the automatic healing....and their end showed tht hashirama still had wounds which did not heal meaning madara really brought him to his utmost limit. Tht is why i said only slight edge by end.

So, kinda, own power vs kyuubi power is a bit of an underrating maddy's powers there.

I understand your point now about Kurama. Basically, he added Kyuubi to his arsenal=his power, whereas I saw it as 2 v 1. After Izuna death, we saw Madara with Susanoo essentially equal to Hashi with Golem. Then, Madara with Kyuubi Susanoo > Hashi with Golem and wood style defense( those gates, forgot the name). Hashi with shinsu senju > Madara with Kyuubi Susanoo.
Damn, I forgot about Hashi's automatic healing . But, what I meant when I said Hashi chose to duke it out was he chose to restrain Kurama after stripping the Susanoo because he knew Kurama was not at fault. In theory, he could've just continued to pummel them, as I believe there was still hands remaining.

So basically at that time, Hashi strongest(shinsuu senju) > Madara(Kyuubi Susanoo). And equals in cqc combat. Hashi won with the wood clone and as you said before, Madara could've used izangai.

Side note: Sakura being able to use hundred healing is pretty darn impressive since she doesn't have the bloodlines. And that's the only praise I'll ever heap on her.

My man had special rinnegan abilities , but no EMS ones....feels sad.

Don't feel sad, Limbo is pretty darn OP. But, then again, Sasuke got his own special Rinnegan ability with one eye, and a cooler design imo. Ok nvm, feel sad.

Naah, if tht was so, other reincarnations would have awakened the rinnegan

Would you mind explaining this further, bit confused. Couldn't any Indra reincarnation technically awaken the Rinnegan if he fused his dna with Ashura reincarnation, assuming eyes are EMS?

I don't think the reincarnations would affect that. We've seen several times Sasuke reaching his limits chakra-wise, both during part one and part two. Madara meanwhile lasted against a Senju, a group specifically noted for their large amount of chakra, for a whole day. Not to mention Madara was capable of summoning the Kyuubi, which according to the rules we were told, would take a large amount of chakra. So from all that we've seen, their chakra levels should be quite far apart.

it is basically the age in which they were born and the way they grew up. ,Maddy was born in age of strife at pinnacle where he progressed the best Sasuke was rather born in the age of peace, so he has less experience and which he made slowly under oorchimaru.

Sure, by end, sasuke had surpassed madara by quite a bit of margin. But conventionally, madara has more chakra than sasuke. With EMS, he had full sussano, summons kyuubi, controls it, fights hashirama, hashirama captures kyuubi and releases control, but (Not summoning itself), meaning both had dead locked each other for chakra consumptions while CQCing each other. And as we know, maddy died,kyuubi captured. at some point in future, once again kyuubi went on rampage and hashi realized he can no longer let it run wild....was sealed and then as we know is history.
Sasuke didn't have tht many achievements with only his EMS......he had them later when he had rinnegan. tht is why i would like to think MS maddy would pretty much tangle it out with EMS sasuke and beat him by a bit of a margin.

Agree, now that I think more about it, the reincarnation thing doesn't hold much weight, i.e
Naruto not having wood style.

--- Double Post Merged, May 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 28, 2020 ---

@lakhan220 have you seen this, Ramen Guy vs. Pain

 

[Ramen]

@Jammin @BD_Beno @lakhan220

Here's something I've been thinking about:

When did Naruto and Sasuke surpass Kakashi?