Theory Not a Villain!? Crocodile's Utopia!

[McNuss]

Ah yes the old "Sorry i tried to overthrow a government and killed 1000 people while trying to get my hand on a weapon of massdestruction, but now i'm good, since i did it for the queers" card.

But i will bite.

How is Buggy (who is getting bullied by croc and mihawk) more evil then him?

Buggy is the only Pirate.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Thats all?

 

[McNuss]

Thats all?

Yeah he's doing bad stuff without any noble intentions.

He's not the worst of all but the only one who is actually a pirate considering what Pirates are.

If it weren't for his desire to achieve WMD, Crocodile could easily be a revolutionary, and possibly has been at some point considering his past with Iva.

Buggy is 100% a criminal.

 

[kkck]

In this story, alignment is defined by intention and not by morals. Vegapunk is a good guy because he has good intentions, and despite him conducting the most inhumane experiments and despite him developing atrocious WMD.

Don't get too stuck on terms, tough. You know fully well I want my posts to be engaging, and you should be able to put things into context based on that.

Most of the citizen had fled the capital. The bomb would have annihilated the symbol of the monarchy and all threats to inner security - the loyalist and rebel armies.

Yes, that's kinda utilitarian. It's also the fastest way to achieve lasting peace in the newfound country.

That is if the bomb even had enough power to begin with. End of the day it couldn't even kill a single bird. Crocodile has a soft heart in secret, that resurfaced time and time again in this story.


Actually he threw someone who is capable of encasing himself in bulletproof wax into a basin of crocodiles. The guy survived and is now working for Crocodile again, just saying.

I don't know if you are familiar with Mickey Mouse comics, but Crocodile in that aspect is kinda like Flatnose/the Black Phantom, who builds "Saw" (you know the movies) like machines to murder Mickey Mouse, yet always leaves the scene before the deed is done and Mickey can always escape because the apparitions have flaws due to Flatnose's soft heart. The Rain base scene was exactly that. Crocodile was beyond sloppy and never killed anyone on screen.

The latter paragraph has nothing to do with what I've said. Yeah they are based on power. The hierarchic seat based system is actually akin to a politbüro, further crediting Croco's utopist nature.



He is not a villain. Call him an anti-hero if you want, which is also consistent with his role in Impel Down and Marineford.

Yeah, that's some hardcore revisionism of the alabasta arc lol. As in, you dialed up the revisionism to 11 and when that wasn't enough you just injected it with enough meth to kill a yonko.

 

[McNuss]

Yeah, that's some hardcore revisionism of the alabasta arc lol. As in, you dialed up the revisionism to 11 and when that wasn't enough you just injected it with enough meth to kill a yonko.

There's no revision. Crocodile is about utopia, and I've deduced what he is all about.

This is all core to the topics of this story and you didn't even ever adress anything I've written; it's nothing but strawman arguments and anything you accuse me of is actually true to your own reasoning.

We've never seen the story through Croc's lense, but we know he has a past with Ivankov and is ultra anti Marines. What he is doing right now is essentially terrorism, but he is also encouraging the people to raise up against their circumstances and oppresors and provides the murderers with protection and shelter.

And in any case, Crocodile is not a villain since Impel Down/Marineford where he is an anti-hero who does Luffy more than one favor, actually Luffy owes both him and Mr. 3 big time even though it was all in vain in the end.
Mihawk is Zoro's mentor, this is all not a very villainous group; the only real villain here is Buggy because Buggy is always very anti-social towards Luffy.

----
What you have to let go off is your personal morals. Sure irl I would put Crocodile to court for what he did.

This is a story about Pirates. Hardly anyone is untainted. Luffy's actions have put thousands of people in danger and he doesn't give a fuck, Eustass Kid is worse and will crucify you when you say a bad word. Whitebeard was a military dictator who kept all the stuff for himself to build his Suebian Almland paradise in his home country and to drink himself away with booze.

The only good guys are the Saruyama alliance.

But in comparison to all the other antagonists, Crocodile is a total softie, that's undeniable. He is also the most serious antagonist, the next villains are a genocidal Emimen who really wants to fly to the moon, a murderous psychopath lapdog..cat who licks the butthole of his superiors to kill people, then a sinner in the truest sense, like let's not recount what is all wrong with Moria and just point out that half of his actual crew are a necrophiliac and a rapist, the warden of a freaking KZ, drugged Fishman KuKluxKlan terrorists, Francisco Franco, Big Mom and a drunk Mongol Warlord. Crocodile' s okay.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 11, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 11, 2023 ---

You think the civil wars Dragon starts don't have casualties? Let's be realistic here.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

But in comparison to all the other antagonists, Crocodile is a total softie, that's undeniable. He is also the most serious antagonist, the next villains are a genocidal Emimen who really wants to fly to the moon, a murderous psychopath lapdog..cat who licks the butthole of his superiors to kill people, then a sinner in the truest sense, like let's not recount what is all wrong with Moria and just point out that half of his actual crew are a necrophiliac and a rapist, the warden of a freaking KZ, drugged Fishman KuKluxKlan terrorists, Francisco Franco, Big Mom and a drunk Mongol Warlord. Crocodile' s okay.

And yet most of the guys you listed had a way lower killcount then croc.

You dont give croc enough credit as a villain. Until Wano i dont even know if we have seen anyone besides croc that had such high killcounts in his crew.

Croc is evil and that is good.

 

[kkck]

There's no revision. Crocodile is about utopia, and I've deduced what he is all about.

This is all core to the topics of this story and you didn't even ever adress anything I've written; it's nothing but strawman arguments and anything you accuse me of is actually true to your own reasoning.

We've never seen the story through Croc's lense, but we know he has a past with Ivankov and is ultra anti Marines. What he is doing right now is essentially terrorism, but he is also encouraging the people to raise up against their circumstances and oppresors and provides the murderers with protection and shelter.

And in any case, Crocodile is not a villain since Impel Down/Marineford where he is an anti-hero who does Luffy more than one favor, actually Luffy owes both him and Mr. 3 big time even though it was all in vain in the end.
Mihawk is Zoro's mentor, this is all not a very villainous group; the only real villain here is Buggy because Buggy is always very anti-social towards Luffy.

----
What you have to let go off is your personal morals. Sure irl I would put Crocodile to court for what he did.

This is a story about Pirates. Hardly anyone is untainted. Luffy's actions have put thousands of people in danger and he doesn't give a fuck, Eustass Kid is worse and will crucify you when you say a bad word. Whitebeard was a military dictator who kept all the stuff for himself to build his Suebian Almland paradise in his home country and to drink himself away with booze.

The only good guys are the Saruyama alliance.

But in comparison to all the other antagonists, Crocodile is a total softie, that's undeniable. He is also the most serious antagonist, the next villains are a genocidal Emimen who really wants to fly to the moon, a murderous psychopath lapdog..cat who licks the butthole of his superiors to kill people, then a sinner in the truest sense, like let's not recount what is all wrong with Moria and just point out that half of his actual crew are a necrophiliac and a rapist, the warden of a freaking KZ, drugged Fishman KuKluxKlan terrorists, Francisco Franco, Big Mom and a drunk Mongol Warlord. Crocodile' s okay.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 11, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 11, 2023 ---

You think the civil wars Dragon starts don't have casualties? Let's be realistic here.

Ah, ok, so not revisionism but rather you alone cracked the code of the proselytism of a middle age man from an absurdly conservative and homogenous country from where I'd bet money that you've never even read a newspaper... Neat.

 

[McNuss]

Ah, ok, so not revisionism but rather you alone cracked the code of the proselytism of a middle age man from an absurdly conservative and homogenous country from where I'd bet money that you've never even read a newspaper... Neat.

This comes off as so xenophobic.
The Manga gives away its ideology for free you just have to read it rather than to insist on your bogus bias.

Oda is an elite anyways and certainly not the norm for his country, that is a pluralist democracy, that has LGBTQ rights activism, just like any other democratic country in the world.
He makes postmodern art around western pop culture he extensively consumes, and has showcased advanced knowledge in five languages. How did he know what a Hanswurst is?
This is stupid, I am sorry, but it is really not an educated take of yours.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2023 ---

And yet most of the guys you listed had a way lower killcount then croc.

You dont give croc enough credit as a villain. Until Wano i dont even know if we have seen anyone besides croc that had such high killcounts in his crew.

Croc is evil and that is good.

That's just no true lol Enel came from annihilating his home country, zero survivors besides the around 60 people he took with him.

The Whiskey Peak guys are Bounty Hunters in a place implied to always have been a Bounty Hunter's nest regardless of Baroque works, and still a Bounty Hunters nest today.
Idk if you know how bounty works, killing someone with a bounty on his head is legal and not a crime.

If we use your metrics, Luffy is just as bad as Crocodile, but One Piece doesn't give death toll counts at the end of each arc because it certainly isn't about traumatizing kids.

I think you are biased by fears around a topic you don't like based on your other political statements. Which doesn't make sense at all considering your profile picture is Nanika out of all characters from HxH out of all series.

 

[kkck]

This comes off as so xenophobic.
The Manga gives away its ideology for free you just have to read it rather than to insist on your bogus bias.

Oda is an elite anyways and certainly not the norm for his country, that is a pluralist democracy, that has LGBTQ rights activism, just like any other democratic country in the world.
He makes postmodern art around western pop culture he extensively consumes, and has showcased advanced knowledge in five languages. How did he know what a Hanswurst is?
This is stupid, I am sorry, but it is really not an educated take of yours.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2023 ---

That's just no true lol Enel came from annihilating his home country, zero survivors besides the around 60 people he took with him.

The Whiskey Peak guys are Bounty Hunters in a place implied to always have been a Bounty Hunter's nest regardless of Baroque works, and still a Bounty Hunters nest today.
Idk if you know how bounty works, killing someone with a bounty on his head is legal and not a crime.

If we use your metrics, Luffy is just as bad as Crocodile, but One Piece doesn't give death toll counts at the end of each arc because it certainly isn't about traumatizing kids.

I think you are biased by fears around a topic you don't like based on your other political statements. Which doesn't make sense at all considering your profile picture is Nanika out of all characters from HxH out of all series.

Xenophobic? Towards whom lol?

 

[McNuss]

Xenophobic? Towards whom lol?

Towards the millions of pretty western oriented Japanese youth you are ignoring because you still believe they all live in the Tokugawa-Shogunate.

 

[kkck]

Towards the millions of pretty western oriented Japanese youth you are ignoring because you still believe they all live in the Tokugawa-Shogunate.

No idea of how you read that from what I said lol, it's crazy. I've pretty much been making the point that japanese folk have their own culture and politics going on, distinct from western stuff (obviously some western stuff has been adopted over time). Which is not to say they are or not having a debate on any given topic, but if they do they will have a japanese frame of find and not, say, a german frame of mind (GASP!).

 

[McNuss]

No idea of how you read that from what I said lol, it's crazy. I've pretty much been making the point that japanese folk have their own culture and politics going on, distinct from western stuff (obviously some western stuff has been adopted over time). Which is not to say they are or not having a debate on any given topic, but if they do they will have a japanese frame of find and not, say, a german frame of mind (GASP!).

It's true that no one can escape his socialization but this is a story for pretty westernized youths in japan and the west abroad, by an author who isn't just of legitimate taste but pretty much atop the hierarchy in his field and who consumes plenty of western media and who profoundly showcases his ideology in his work, upon which my analysis relies.

Your argument doesn't work.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

No idea of how you read that from what I said lol, it's crazy. I've pretty much been making the point that japanese folk have their own culture and politics going on, distinct from western stuff (obviously some western stuff has been adopted over time). Which is not to say they are or not having a debate on any given topic, but if they do they will have a japanese frame of find and not, say, a german frame of mind (GASP!).

Western values = You dont agree with me, so youre xenophobic, racist or else.

Please dont think all germans are like this.

 

[kkck]

It's true that no one can escape his socialization but this is a story for pretty westernized youths in japan and the west abroad, by an author who isn't just of legitimate taste but pretty much atop the hierarchy in his field and who consumes plenty of western media and who profoundly showcases his ideology in his work, upon which my analysis relies.

Your argument doesn't work.

So like, japanese folk being japanese and having their own thing is socialization? I suppose that's technically not wrong in a way but you make their non western identity sound like brainwashing. Anyways, you are delusional. I mean, most of the folk who try to analyze OP from an ideological frame of mind just don't speak japanese nor even follow the poorly translated gibberish that makes it out of japan. Even in the lgbt stuff... Oda's depiction of this is wild to put it mildly. You have iva who can literally change folk's sex, sanji running away from rather molesty men in dresses, sanji in a cover story getting caught by said molesty men with the implication they undressed him and... dolled him up if you will. You have yamato who isn't a trans man but rather a trans oden whom at least sanji and brook acknowledge has fantistic boobs. Obviously you have okiku who is a healthier though insanely female looking depiction of a trans woman (but fans always ignore okiku and focus on yamato for some reason). I mean, don't you find it in the least bit strange that somehow, miraculously even, that somehow the works of a japanese middle aged man perfectly mirrors your own ideology? It speaks to oda's ability as a writer that folk can insert themselves into his work but come on man.

 

[Riku]

Crocodile is 100% a villain (or atleast was, current narrative status unclear). No matter how you spin it. He staged a civil war using underhanded clever manipulation (rain powder, mane mane, misuse of own authority etc), had a fleet ambush Grand Line arrivals, orderdered assassinations and a lot more. He is responsible for death and suffering of thousands. There is no ends justify means redemption for all that.

Now though, we get to how to write a good villain. What is a good villain depends on the story. In most scenarious though his/her plans and goals or persona should make sense and be in some aspects relatable. Think Thanos or moat iterations of Joker. Absolute psychos, but their views on the structure and sustainability of current society weren't exactly wrong. We can in some extent relate and understand.

This is probably where this Utopia might come in. He might have a point and some noble ideas. This makes him a less a one note pure evil. Shades make him a better character. He still is a villain though. Or atleast was in Alabasta. Narrative role may change.

Crocodiles arc actually might juxtapose well with the current Revolutionary storyline. Masses worship Sabo, because they think he murdered Cobra - a member of the authority that suppresses the people. Crocs plan was kinda that, to make the people overthrow a presumed tyrant, the very same person even (and take his place after). Croc might have even thought that he was usurping someone who as a member of the WG deserved it, or wasn't any worse than he himself. Now it's interesting that Croc is in the Cross Guild, which kinda operates in the same principle. They incite the suffering people against the fascist authority - they seem noble for the people, even though it's for their own gain and benefit. We as readers though know, that this anger is misguided (as some marines really are good guys and Cobra is a good king). So basically narratively we have crooks on both sides. Nasty Celestial Dragons and tyrant kings, but also pirates who abuse the hatred and fear of the people for personal gain and goals, not caring if the target is right.

Excellent villain narratively imho.

 

[McNuss]

Crocodile is 100% a villain (or atleast was, current narrative status unclear). No matter how you spin it. He staged a civil war using underhanded clever manipulation (rain powder, mane mane, misuse of own authority etc), had a fleet ambush Grand Line arrivals, orderdered assassinations and a lot more. He is responsible for death and suffering of thousands. There is no ends justify means redemption for all that.

Yeah but you also take your morals into this story which is alot about morals but not at all about moral role models.
If Crocodile is a villain, then what is Vegapunk?

Crocodile's acts were heinous but he's a pirate.

One Piece has a weird and unique way of dealing with killing:

1. Few characters of importance die
2. Masses of people get into situations that irl would result in thousands of deaths, but no one is shown actually dieing.
3. No death tolls are given.

Just comparing point 2. among villains, Crocodile is tame. If the intention is noble, then a Pirate in this story is an Anti-Hero and not a villain.

----

But in reality I am mostly playing words past the first sentence.
This thread isn't really about Crocodile being a villain or not, but about his goals and agenda.

I mean, don't you find it in the least bit strange that somehow, miraculously even, that somehow the works of a japanese middle aged man perfectly mirrors your own ideology?

No, because this is not my "ideology", and I don't know why I get accused of this all of a sudden. I have been reading this story for 22 years, and am analyzing the content of this story. I also just know alot.

What I find weird is your idea of Eiichiro Oda, the #1 comic writer and #3 fiction writer international, to be the average japanese middle aged man, and the idea that stuff made by the japanese can only be understood by the japanese.

Even in the lgbt stuff... Oda's depiction of this is wild to put it mildly. You have iva who can literally change folk's sex, sanji running away from rather molesty men in dresses, sanji in a cover story getting caught by said molesty men with the implication they undressed him and... dolled him up if you will. You have yamato who isn't a trans man but rather a trans oden whom at least sanji and brook acknowledge has fantistic boobs. Obviously you have okiku who is a healthier though insanely female looking depiction of a trans woman (but fans always ignore okiku and focus on yamato for some reason).

Yeah, this is what you can achieve when you have legitimate taste.

Iva isn't strange at all it's just a Devil Fruit about hormones. Not any kind of weird knowledge for anyone in a first world country.
When you take hormones of the opposite sex and hormone blockers blocking off your own sexual hormones, your bodies secondary sexual characteristics change into that of the opposite sex over time.
There's also growth hormones a friend of mine needed to inject them since he was four years old.
The design is Frank'n'Further from Rocky Horror Picture show.
Now the name is actually interesting but as I said there are things I don't want to talk about since I don't want to spoil the story.

Sanji cover story I can show you a place that is just like that.

I don't think most readers have understood Yamato's purpose so I'll leave it simple, Yamato is a mirror to the readers just like Oden's journal is a mirror to One Piece.

Okiku isn't "insanely" feminine by any standards presented in One Piece and pretty much just looks like the average asian transgender woman. She's precisely not a big boobed beach girl. Again its not any wild idea.

Afaik the Franky VA once said Oda's occupation is due to him taking him to trans bars and explaining him stuff. However we already know Oda's first own character creation, Honjo Katamari from some Kenshin chapters Oda worked on as an assistant is a crossdresser and the Franky VA is several years older than Oda, yet a very close friend, there are many implications that their relationship precedes him becoming VA of Franky and in fact he appears crucial to the creation of the character in the first place...sounds like a friend of the family or something and maybe Oda just isn't your "average middle aged japanese".

It's Oda obviously heavily occupied with the topic for decades.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

To me Crocodile has come off as the classic dictatorship being his utopia. He will do whatever he wants and what he wants is always what's best. He'll kill anyone and do anything to meet those ends. He's the same as Doflamingo in a lot of ways though Oda has started a bit more of a redemptive path for him since Marineford.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Crocodile is definitely a villain.
This guy was willing to starve an entire country simply because of his own agenda to rule the world.
He took rain from a country in a desert meaning:

• They can't grow crops.
• They can't eat.
• They can't drink.

People were dying like flies. Kids were dying. Dude staged a civil war and was about to throw a bomb that would kill the people fighting in this civil war which included both adults and kids.

ANYONE who does anything with good intentions (which he never had BTW, but for the sake of argument let's assume it was), but with evil methods... that person is inherently evil.

He's a villain, I am baffled that anyone could claim Crocodile isn't a villain simply because there is a supposed pairing of what is LGBTQ based.

Would be like saying someone wanted more christian or religious values which are quite righteous and promotes goodwill amongst people for the most part, but is fine with killing millions of innocent people? Crocodile is not a good person whether he was LGBTQ or some other movement.

He is also the first man who offered Nico Robin, a persecuted woman, genuine protection, and never questioned her one bit despite him claiming to trust no one, and despite him trusting no one else in the very same organization aside from a badger and a vulture. He could have tortured her into teaching him how to read poneglyphs any time, he never did. He bought her luxurious outfits and a nice crocodile car from his casino money, that's what he did.

What? He just wanted her because he could get something from her, and the moment she became useless to him... he attempted to kill her. That isn't love. This is psychopathy.

Robin had no where to go, so of course she would work with Crocodile, she'd have been stupid, and if she didn't obey him, he'd have tortured her. Crocodile is no saint, dude is a villain, and the finest.
Patient enough to scheme up a plan for 15 years? He's a villain of the finest order.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 11, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 11, 2023 ---

Masses of people get into situations that irl would result in thousands of deaths, but no one is shown actually dieing.

People died, there was a famine and drought.

He tried to drop a NUKE, the only reason more people didn't die is because Luffy and co. stopped his madness.

By your logic, barely anyone died in Dressrosa, so we could argue Joker is also an anti-hero if he had hypothetical good intentions which he was willing to achieve by wiping out an ENTIRE nation of people.

Bottom line, if you're a psychopath and are taking psychotic routes to achieve a noble goal or any goal for that matter, you're a villain. Crocodile is no anti hero, he never had good intentions, he's just a villain.

The term anti-hero is a pretty funny term, it's a weird idea to justify evil actions to label someone good, anti-hero basically just means evil person at the end of the day.

I want to make the world a better place (noble idea)
So, I am going to kill everyone who is remotely in pain .
Now I have created a world that is free from pain, I'm a good person right?

Antihero is such a dusty term and concept.

 

[McNuss]

Crocodile is definitely a villain.
This guy was willing to starve an entire country simply because of his own agenda to rule the world.
He took rain from a country in a desert meaning:

• They can't grow crops.
• They can't eat.
• They can't drink.

People were dying like flies. Kids were dying. Dude staged a civil war and was about to throw a bomb that would kill the people fighting in this civil war which included both adults and kids.

This thread isn't really about Croc being a villain or not by our moral standards.
Was his agenda simply to rule the world? Few megalomaniacs think that way, be it Caesar, Napoleon or Hitler.

We saw Alabasta - Elumalu dried out, Yuba was on the brink of collapse, the inland Katorea, the base of the rebells might have been in crisis, too - but not as severe as that it couldn't sustain an army of 1 million rebells with as many horses and camels.

However, other cities were still thriving, the port town of Nanohana was as busy as usual, Rainbase is sitting on a water source, and Alubarna was manipulated to be rainy (and you can get that water to other places, and that's how they have to handle rain in the desert anyways)
I think you can answer yourself how severe the crisis actually was.

In other words, based on how Alabasta's population is distributed and the sheer size of the rebell army, I don't think we had this severe crisis. Don't think rain is the norm in Alabasta anyways.

The bomb didn't even kill Pell in close proximity. Possible that it was just a giant flashlight to make a good show. Would have created the opposite of how it actually ended (which is actually antithetical to Skypea's ending - Luffy brings the sun, but Vivi makes it rain. Croc is a Luffy-type character, they are both out for the same thing...)

ANYONE who does anything with good intentions (which he never had BTW, but for the sake of argument let's assume it was), but with evil methods... that person is inherently evil.

He's a villain, I am baffled that anyone could claim Crocodile isn't a villain simply because there is a supposed pairing of what is LGBTQ based.

Would be like saying someone wanted more christian or religious values which are quite righteous and promotes goodwill amongst people for the most part, but is fine with killing millions of innocent people? Crocodile is not a good person whether he was LGBTQ or some other movement.

And this is our real world moral standard. Based on the same standards of villainness, Vegapunk would be an archfiend for creating atrocious WMD and performing inhumane experiments with no regard for the consequences. Right now we are rooting for someone responsible for blasting an entire nation to the seafloor - or below.

He also isn't fighting for LGBT, he's just inclusive of it. He's trying to create a country with gender parity in the leadership. Why is this important? Well it is important...

Would be like saying someone wanted more christian or religious values which are quite righteous and promotes goodwill amongst people for the most part, but is fine with killing millions of innocent people?

That actually more or less happens with the churches anti-condom agenda in HIV plagued countries.
Also the previous two popes, John Paul and Ratzinger were responsible for covering up thousands of cases of child abuse, yet any pious catholic would never question them.

Good and Evil aren't as easy to define as we would like it.
We have our western based, international online reading manga community values here, but what about Crocodile, he's a Pirate...

What? He just wanted her because he could get something from her, and the moment she became useless to him... he attempted to kill her. That isn't love. This is psychopathy.

Robin had no where to go, so of course she would work with Crocodile, she'd have been stupid, and if she didn't obey him, he'd have tortured her. Crocodile is no saint, dude is a villain, and the finest.
Patient enough to scheme up a plan for 15 years? He's a villain of the finest order.

No, as I said, he never did torture her. He remained distanced, but was the first person to genuine protect her without kicking her out after a while or selling her out.

He gifted her expensive designer clothes, gave her a job in the casino bought her an S-Class Mercedes Benz Banawani. It's clear that he tried to gain enough trust with her to gain her cooperation non-violently, despite this not being precautious at all and a risk to the entire plan.

His entire plan crafted and prepared for years relied on her translating the Poneglyph for him. Why not torture a 16 year old, get what you want, kill her and then its your ultimate secret that you can read Poneglyphs?

He also never made any double checks wether he would actually have that trust, which is kinda naive considering Robin was allowed to go where she wanted and could have escaped unchecked and with no means of getting her back any time.

Croc is soft, through and through (as far as Pirate Warlords go) and probably thought "Well, I hate the WG, she must hate the WG..."

Remember how he snapped when they tried to execute Ace and actually saved him? He got all emotionally upset all of a sudden despite his initial goal being assassinating Whitebeard. Knowing how Haki works, Ace's death would have been beneficial to that goal, the entire Pirate side would be under shock, then panicked retreat.

People died, there was a famine and drought.

He tried to drop a NUKE, the only reason more people didn't die is because Luffy and co. stopped his madness.

By your logic, barely anyone died in Dressrosa, so we could argue Joker is also an anti-hero if he had hypothetical good intentions which he was willing to achieve by wiping out an ENTIRE nation of people.

We've seen life in Alabasta, wasn't that worse. If you can sustain an army of 1 Million rebells, complete with as many horses and camels, the drought and famine cannot be that severe.

At most, Crocodile displaced a lot of people by drieing out their oasis villages with sandstorms, the oasises, ground water, are the main lifesource in the desert, not the rain. He didn't dry out the central desert hub Rainbase, and when we where there, there were no signs of a humanitarian crisis.
The rainpowder was for political framing, it never rains that much in the desert anyways and we know the additional sandstorms were artificial. No sandstorms, no noticeable damage from rainpowder either as they just have their groundwater to drink. They also had freshwater from the Sandora River source all the time.

I mean, we have this situation right now, 2,5 Million people stranded in an arid area with no water supply and its a severe humanitarian crisis, didn't happen in Katorea.

The bomb didn't even kill Pell. Nothing suggests Mr. 7 and Miss Halloween were on a willful suicide mission. The latter alone proves its not a nuke. Realistically, Croc was trying to stage a revolution, he would have gotten rid of the royal army and palace - the symbols of the monarchy, and the rebel army, the latter likely to be mystified as martyrs, and then he would have installed his dictatorship with the officer agents as Politbüro and the Frontier agents as Kandidaten.

And unlike Dressrosa, the majority of civilians left Alubarna prior to the battle. The above is also a contrasting point as Dressrosa is known to be based on Francoist Spain.

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Don't get me wrong, by our moral standards Crocodile is a villain. By the standards this narrative sets he is temperate.
We are also too quick to saintify others, like Whitebeard, who also was a military dictator said to have never really shared anything and instead put it into booze and his almland home paradise built around naive dreams.
After his reckless and unnecessary death to save someone (just 1) he believed would be "Pirate King", a superstitious myth installed to him by someone objectively mad and insane no matter the knowledge gained at Laugh Tale, his territories got raided and torn apart. Good job, dude!
The guy was in Rocks who most likely have not been the nicest persons either.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The bomb didn't even kill Pell in close proximity. Possible that it was just a giant flashlight to make a good show.

That's a hell of a reach, lol.
Pell survived because of his speed and he's powerful, he's far more powerful than the average human.

If you have to use this as argument for why Crocodile is not a villain, your entire can be dismissed if it's not based on sound reasoning at all.

Really, flashlight to make a good show? Common, lol.

The bomb was just strong enough to destroy the desert and create a nuke like explosion, but it's just mere.... fireworks.... and the whole thing was just nothing, and a false plot?
What's next, Kaido wasn't a dictator, he was just doing what he thought was best for the survival of Wano because he really and truly loved them and did what he did because he knew the WG's threat was so monstrous that he had to become a monster. Totally.

Vegapunk would be an archfiend for creating atrocious WMD and performing inhumane experiments with no regard for the consequences. Right now we are rooting for someone responsible for blasting an entire nation to the seafloor - or below.

Not at all, he's forced to do this. Not like he has any choice.

He's trying to create a country with gender parity in the leadership. Why is this important? Well it is important...

Completely false dude, this is not his goal.

He wanted to create a nation where other Pirates joined him for having an Ancient Weapon, and the WG wouldn't be able to oppose them.

Not sure why you're adding this agenda that is non-existent.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 11, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 11, 2023 ---

The rainpowder was for political framing, it never rains that much in the desert anyways and we know the additional sandstorms were artificial. No sandstorms, no noticeable damage from rainpowder either as they just have their groundwater to drink. They also had freshwater from the Sandora River source all the time.

Besides the point, it rains.

He took away the rain to such an extent that the country was divided, but you're trying to make it sound insignificant for this theory of yours.

This is quite frankly.... I don't think I will say more other than the reach is just wow, but each to their own, lol.