High Tier Singles Round 1 Block A - Shiraishi vs Kite

[Kaoz]

Singles - High Tier
Round 1 Block A​

Name	Shiraishi Kuranosuke
Grade	Middle School 3rd Year
Birthday	April 14th
Height	178 cm
Weight	66 kg
Handedness	Left
Playstyle	All Rounder

VERSUS​

Name	Kite Eishirou
Grade	Middle School 3rd Year
Birthday	November 9th
Height	179 cm
Weight	72 kg
Handedness	Left
Playstyle	All Rounder

Serve order: Shiraishi -> Kite


This round ends on Thursday, August 8th, at 8 PM GMT.

Have fun discussing.

 

[LetalHawk]

Shiraishi takes this. He has enough technique to return Habu, Viking Horn and Big Bang. Also, Kite should be able to win one or two games at most. I see Shiraishi quickly getting used to ODS. Shiraishi was able to return all of Fuji's counters, even Hecatoncheries, and I don't see Kite returning Fuji's fifth counter. Also, Shiraishi should even beat Kite with the gauntlet on.

Shiraishi should take this 6-3 or 6-2.

 

[FrostyMouse]

I'm actually not sure about the scoreline in this match. For the reasons Letal posted, Kite's stuff doesn't really faze Shiraishi, but it could be a close match. The result goes in Shiraishi's favor without a doubt, in my opinion, but it could be 7-5, 6-4, or 6-1 Shiraishi in the end.

 

[-Ken-]

I'll say Shiraishi. But I'm not too sure. Shiraishi without golden gauntlet 6-0 3rd court just fine. But Kite was playing fine with #7-8 at 60%. But then got stomp when #8 is actually serious.

 

[Kaoz]

^Kite's injuries were largely due to having to protect Marui. I don't think he'd beat Tohno in singles, but it might not look quite as bad.


Since you guys wanted me to take part in the discussion last time, I'll do so this time as well. If anyone wants me not to, lemme know.

He has enough technique to return Habu, Viking Horn and Big Bang.

Kite's stuff doesn't really faze Shiraishi.

This is probably not incorrect (although even if a move doesn't end in a point win, it can still potentially be used as setup), although it begs the counter question: What does Shiraishi have that fazes Kite? Neither of you really answered that.

I see Shiraishi quickly getting used to ODS.

In this context I would like to point out that so far, nobody has managed to actually break ODS yet. Tezuka scored points by overpowering Kite with Hyakuren's doubled return, whereas Kimijima overcame it by manipulating Marui and catching Kite off-guard (which is obviously not viable in singles).
It's not a move you just quickly get used to.

 

[Hardy]

Yeah I was thinking exactly like that. Yes Shiraishi will return everything Kite throws... so? How can he hand omni directional Shukuchihou, and what does he have that Kite can't return? We would have endless rallies, and it could end 7-6 / (6-4 or 7-5) for any of them.

 

[LetalHawk]

^Kite's injuries were largely due to having to protect Marui. I don't think he'd beat Tohno in singles, but it might not look quite as bad.


Since you guys wanted me to take part in the discussion last time, I'll do so this time as well. If anyone wants me not to, lemme know.




This is probably not incorrect (although even if a move doesn't end in a point win, it can still potentially be used as setup), although it begs the counter question: What does Shiraishi have that fazes Kite? Neither of you really answered that.



In this context I would like to point out that so far, nobody has managed to actually break ODS yet. Tezuka scored points by overpowering Kite with Hyakuren's doubled return, whereas Kimijima overcame it by manipulating Marui and catching Kite off-guard (which is obviously not viable in singles).
It's not a move you just quickly get used to.

Shiraishi's gonna struggle a little bit, maybe two or three games at most until he adapts to Kite's rythm with ODS. We're talking about Shiraishi, and ODS is not something that is gonna take him something like 4 or 5 games to counter. Moreover, with the gauntlet removed, his arm speed increases, so the speed of his shots might caught him off guard.

Shiraishi has Entaku Shot but Kite should be able to easily return it with ODS. Then, like you said, Kite doesn't have anything outside of ODS that fazes Shiraishi. In the end, it all comes down to see how much time will Shiraishi take to counter ODS and, since neither of them can faze each other with special techniques, it's pure base skill, and I'll give the edge to Shiraishi (I think he has better stats than Kite, also he returned Fuji's fifth counter, something I'll never see Kite doing).

 

[Kaoz]

What makes you say ODS is something Shiraishi can adapt to over the course of two games? When it hasn't been actually broken yet by anyone and we don't know of any glaring weaknesses that could be abused (unless you would like to point one out of course).

Kite took four consecutive games off Vanilla!Tezuka, something I don't see Shiraishi do.

 

[FrostyMouse]

What makes you say ODS is something Shiraishi can adapt to over the course of two games? When it hasn't been actually broken yet by anyone and we don't know of any glaring weaknesses that could be abused (unless you would like to point one out of course).

Kite took four consecutive games off Vanilla!Tezuka, something I don't see Shiraishi do.

Yes, I know. When I mentioned that Shiraishi can handle everything Kite throws, I know that I neglected to mention that Shiraishi isn't exactly powerful offensively; however, he still did win all of those points (I forget whether it was 20 or 23) consecutively against Kantou!Fuji. Entaku Shot isn't a move that he spams or anything, and honestly, based on what we've seen out of Kite, he should be able to return it.

To be honest, even no Gauntlet!Shiraishi might not win very many points against base Tezuka. It's hard to pin down where base!Tezuka stands. On the other hand, Kite only played against base!Tezuka and Hyakuren!Tezuka, never facing Zone!Tezuka.

I do think that there's a chance that Shiraishi could see through ODS eventually. You do have to remember that ODS isn't actual teleportation or anything. I don't think that Shiraishi became hugely better without the Gauntlet (his foot speed didn't increase, for example), and he was merely playing evenly against ETC!Fuji (KZ only works against ES and Heca was already narrowly broken at that point). Well, it's actually hard to pin down how the end of that match went.

Kite didn't gain an improvement, other than getting to use Viking Horn and Ohabu, in the G10 matches. On the other hand, Shiraishi didn't even play in the G10 matches, but that doesn't mean anything. The removal of the Gauntlet, while not a huge improvement, in my opinion, is more of an improvement than what Kite gained.

As I said in my opinion, I think that Shiraishi eventually wins. The score could range from 6-1 to 7-5 or 7-6.

 

[LetalHawk]

Weaknesses of ODS, only I have one that is fast shots that Kite can't get too (or very strong shots that overpower Kite). As Shiraishi lacks any special technique that can pressure Kite, it all comes down to stats. I'm saying that Shiraishi will adapt to ODS (I admit Kite's gonna take some games with it until shiraishi starts returning the shots).

Kaoz, basically, this match is just about stats (no special technique will work, and you can't say ODS will be impossible for Shiraishi to counter), and I think Kite's base stats (I'm talking the moment Shiraishi starts a counter against ODS) aren't better than shiraishi's (Shiraishi should have slightly better stats),, so it's not so reckless to think that shiraishi can start a counter and win the match.

So I'll give it to shiraishi 7-5, or 6-3. As Frosty said, ODS it's not something that Shiraishi can't see through, moreover, this match highly depends on who has better stats, and I think Shiraishi's are better.

 

[Hardy]

As Frosty said, ODS it's not something that Shiraishi can't see through, moreover, this match highly depends on who has better stats, and I think Shiraishi's are better.

How come? ODS was something that was destroying Tezuka.

And how can you think Shiraishi's stats are better? Shiraishi nowadays is as strong as Tezuka, a lil bit faster, and has a lot less technique (we can asume that Tezuka had always more tech than Shiraishi... and still, Kite was beating him).

Also, what makes you think that Shiraishi would easily rally with Kite? Kite could mix some VHs and Habus here and there to make the rally even more complex, and there's no simple ball that he can't retrieve thanks to ODS.

Overall, now I think that Kite has the upper hand.

 

[Kaoz]

I forget whether it was 20 or 23

23. However he also lost consecutive games to Fuji afterwards in which Fuji didn't use the evolved triple counter yet.

You do have to remember that ODS isn't actual teleportation or anything.

Oh, definitely. At the same time it's probably the closest thing we have to perfect court coverage outside of Rai.

I do think that there's a chance that Shiraishi could see through ODS eventually.

I'm saying that Shiraishi will adapt to ODS (I admit Kite's gonna take some games with it until shiraishi starts returning the shots).

Shiraishi might have a bit more better stats, so it's not so reckless to think that shiraishi can start a counter and win the match.

Alright, let's assume that Shiraishi finds a way to break ODS and look at the scenario.

Even then, it's not like all the games Kite has won until that point suddenly vanish. Let's say Kite takes 3-4 games just thanks to ODS (which is not an unreasonable estimate I'd say, given that he took 4 games off of Tezuka and Shiraishi took almost 4 games until he started to return Heca).

And even if Shiraishi has a small advantage stats wise, it's not like Kite will completely stop scoring, so in other words, in order to catch up from that point, Shiraishi would have to be significantly better throughout the rest of the match. I have some trouble seeing a stat gap that big personally.

 

[LetalHawk]

How come? ODS was something that was destroying Tezuka.

And how can you think Shiraishi's stats are better? Shiraishi nowadays is as strong as Tezuka, a lil bit faster, and has a lot less technique (we can asume that Tezuka had always more tech than Shiraishi... and still, Kite was beating him).

Also, what makes you think that Shiraishi would easily rally with Kite? Kite could mix some VHs and Habus here and there to make the rally even more complex, and there's no simple ball that he can't retrieve thanks to ODS.

Overall, now I think that Kite has the upper hand.

Read my last post again, like I said, Kite's ODS is what going to give trouble to Shiraishi, Kite's stuff doesn't faze Shiraishi, which means that Shiraishi will easily return the techniques. No matter how many times Kite uses them, Shiraishi will return them like it's a normal shot (seeing how he handled all of Fuji's counters and even fifth counter which is way more harder to return than VH and Habu). So, the main problem for Shiraishi is ODS, Kite could create setups for scoring points with VH and Habu, but it's shiraishi who's here, and I think that he'll have no problems handling the shots and returning them normally, no matter how many times Kite hits them both.

Also, don't you think that if he uses Habu and VH constantly for a lot of time his stamina might be drained?

 

[Hardy]

Also, don't you think that if he uses Habu and VH constantly for a lot of time his stamina might be drained?

I don't think so. His stamina seemed perfetcly normal in the last match (it only lasted 2 sets though) even if he was spamming habus at one moment.

 

[LetalHawk]

23. However he also lost consecutive games to Fuji afterwards in which Fuji didn't use the evolved triple counter yet.



Oh, definitely. At the same time it's probably the closest thing we have to perfect court coverage outside of Rai.





Alright, let's assume that Shiraishi finds a way to break ODS and look at the scenario.

Even then, it's not like all the games Kite has won until that point suddenly vanish. Let's say Kite takes 3-4 games just thanks to ODS (which is not an unreasonable estimate I'd say, given that he took 4 games off of Tezuka and Shiraishi took almost 4 games until he started to return Heca).

And even if Shiraishi has a small advantage stats wise, it's not like Kite will completely stop scoring, so in other words, in order to catch up from that point, Shiraishi would have to be significantly better throughout the rest of the match. I have some trouble seeing a stat gap that big personally.

It's not like Shiraishi can't score points if he eventually sees through ODS. With his gauntlet removed he could shake up Kite hitting fast shots, assuming he counters ODS.

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 AM ----------

I don't think so. His stamina seemed perfetcly normal in the last match (it only lasted 2 sets though) even if he was spamming habus at one moment.

Fair enough, I didn't remember that he lasted more than one set using VH and Habu in the last match

 

[Hardy]

...I'm useless and I can't find the unvoe button >_<

 

[Kaoz]

...I'm useless and I can't find the unvoe button >_<

That was an error on my part, sorry about that. You can now find the unvote button in the top right corner of the poll.

---------- Post added at 09:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

It's not like Shiraishi can't score points if he eventually sees through ODS. With his gauntlet removed he could shake up Kite hitting fast shots, assuming he counters ODS.

I didn't claim that he couldn't. All I said was that the ratio in which he had to score to close a 0-3 or 0-4 gap would suggest more than just a small advantage stats wise.

 

[-Ken-]

I just think Shiraishi is underestimated here. He's on par with 5th counter Fuji before. Probably weaker than 6th counter Fuji, which is pretty even (maybe a bit weaker) with Tezuka pre PoP. However, that is all PoT1. In PoT2, he gains golden gauntlet removal. Konomi even add the conversation panel between Shiraishi and Fuji to make it look unclear who's stronger between the two is not sure anymore. If anything, Shirashi might have advantage since he probably won't hit any more court ball. That should put him around National! Tezuka level too.

Kite is good, and I do feel he is underestimated, but he only beat Kantou Tezuka 4-0. National Tezuka, which Shiraishi seem to be able to fight with looking at above information, should put Shiraishi above Kite. Base stat can rock people hard if needed be. There's no need for fancy tech.

 

[Kaoz]

Kite is good, and I do feel he is underestimated, but he only beat Kantou Tezuka 4-0. National Tezuka, which Shiraishi seem to be able to fight with looking at above information, should put Shiraishi above Kite. Base stat can rock people hard if needed be. There's no need for fancy tech.

It's not true that Kite beat Kanto!Tezuka 4-0, it was Nationals!Tezuka. Tezuka's shoulder had already healed at that time and during Tezuka vs Oishi, Seigaku confirmed that Tezuka got more powerful compared to his match against Atobe. In other words, we're looking at Kite beating the guy with 19 stat total. Shiraishi only has 17.5 plus whatever the gauntlet removal gives him (I'm estimating this to be 0.5 personally, maybe 1), in any case nowhere near enough to get a big lead like that, even if it's against Vanilla!Tezuka.

 

[-Ken-]

It's not true that Kite beat Kanto!Tezuka 4-0, it was Nationals!Tezuka. Tezuka's shoulder had already healed at that time and during Tezuka vs Oishi, Seigaku confirmed that Tezuka got more powerful compared to his match against Atobe. In other words, we're looking at Kite beating the guy with 19 stat total.

Tezuka at that point do not have Saiki, Zero Shiki Serve, nor Tezuka Phantom. All of which should be add to his technique. And those techniques all raise Tezuka scariness immensely. And Tezuka did not use Hyakuren in those 4 game that he won either. So more technique could be subtracted from that. If fact, Tezuka doesn't even use Tezuka Zone is those 4 game.

My point is that Shiraishi is show to be on par with Fuji even now. It's questionable who'll win between the two. Kite doesn't look to me like he can come close to beating Fuji at all. If Fuji match with Tezuka were of any indication, that would suggests to me that Shiraishi can win this match too.

It might be hard to say how Shiraishi will break Kite tech. But I believe from his relationship with Fuji that he's just higher than Kite. Kite's tech might not be seen to break that often. But another example is Ootori. His neo scud had barely been broken, but no one doubt that higher tier character won't be able to answer it. Nor doesn't anyone have any doubt 10 baller won't be able to beat Ochi, although master of return Yukimura say it's a ball that can't be return.