Special Move Technique vs. Technique

[Kaoz]

Next discussion:
Kawamura's Final Hadoukyuu vs Sanada's Quiet like the Forest

I'll have to get farther in my re-reading of the series for Kawamura's FH and Sanada's QLTF. I can't completely remember about QLTF, but didn't the original Hadoukyuu creator say that FH was stronger than his highest level Hadoukyuu? I can't remember for sure.

Not exactly, Gin said it was different from Hadokyuu and that's why he couldn't neutralize it. He didn't say whether it was stronger than the 108th level though, that was only in the anime iirc.

That being said, I think naming it Final Hadokyuu when it's actually something different is a bit misleading, so anyone has an idea for a different name?

Regarding the actual discussion... I don't really know. On the one hand, the serve has a ridiculous amount of power, but on the other hand, Rin was able to negate all the spin on TPhantom (which is also pretty ridiculous), so I'm not sure how much power it could absorb.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Regarding the actual discussion... I don't really know. On the one hand, the serve has a ridiculous amount of power, but on the other hand, Rin was able to negate all the spin on TPhantom (which is also pretty ridiculous), so I'm not sure how much power it could absorb.

I'm not sure if this happened in the manga but Rin in the anime couldn't absorb the subtle Tezuka Zone spin. So you could say Rin only works with high levels of power and spin. I might be wrong though.

 

[Kaoz]

I'm not sure if this happened in the manga but Rin in the anime couldn't absorb the subtle Tezuka Zone spin. So you could say Rin only works with high levels of power and spin. I might be wrong though.

It didn't, in the manga Tezuka stopped using TZone after Sanada destroyed his gut with Rai (2nd or 3rd game).

 

[FrostyMouse]

Not exactly, Gin said it was different from Hadokyuu and that's why he couldn't neutralize it. He didn't say whether it was stronger than the 108th level though, that was only in the anime iirc.

That being said, I think naming it Final Hadokyuu when it's actually something different is a bit misleading, so anyone has an idea for a different name?

Regarding the actual discussion... I don't really know. On the one hand, the serve has a ridiculous amount of power, but on the other hand, Rin was able to negate all the spin on TPhantom (which is also pretty ridiculous), so I'm not sure how much power it could absorb.

Yeah, that's only in the anime. In the manga, Gin says that it's as strong as his 40th style, and then stops speaking, and then says that it's not a Hadokyuu.

It's all explained in Chapter 331.

http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/6/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/7/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/8/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/9/

Inui explains that it's not a Hadokyuu, so Gin couldn't neutralize it.

Honestly, I don't think that this is even a good matchup. As Tezuka doesn't use any "power shots" in his match with Sanada, you're never able to see the extent of what Forest can do.

Renji describes that Forest utterly defeats him, which raises a real question about Sanada's true power. Without Forest, Renji's comment almost makes it appear as if he'd beat Sanada.

Fire's attacks crush Kirihara and Atobe's tennis can't beat the defense of Mountain.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that there's enough use of either the "Final Hadokyuu" or Rin in order to actually have this discussion. I think that Sanada would probably just use Fire to counter the Final Hadokyuu, not Rin. It's only when Yukimura tells Sanada to will he use Rin in a head-on challenge, which Kawamura would present with the FH.

Rin's effective against Renji for whatever reason, but I won't even give a number for whether Rin can defeat FH. The "logic" of PoT would say that Rin should be able to defeat FH because Sanada's techniques are on such a high level, but in an actual match, who knows. In order to break Kawamura's serve (in truth, to get even one point off of Kawamura's serve), Sanada would need to be able to return the FH. Due to the fact that Sanada is a much higher tier player than Kawamura, Sanada finds some method to return it, even if it's the KaRinRai combo move that he uses to return the Zero-Shiki Serve.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

So we have no outcome for this due to a lack of information. I think this one might work.
Next discussion:
Tezuka's Tezuka Phantom vs. Fuji's Fifth Counter: Hecatoncheires no Monban

 

[FrostyMouse]

Hecatoncheires doesn't need to aim for a corner in an attempt to beat Tezuka off the court, it just lands in the middle of the court, sort of like Rin, so I don't think Tezuka Phantom could direct the ball out of the court that easily.

However, Niou's Illusion of Tezuka is able to hit a ball for a clean winner without touching the net against Hecatoncheires, which would mean that if Niou's imperfect Illusion can break Hecatoncheires, so could the real Tezuka. In that case, Tezuka wouldn't use Phantom to counter Hecatoncheires as he can just hit it over the net.

Ignoring that, and ignoring PoP Tezuka vs Fuji, I think that Hecatoncheires beats Tezuka Phantom.

I just find that this comparison wouldn't have a chance of taking place, and even if one technique beats another, characters do have a stable of techniques for a reason, after all. If Hecatoncheires does beat Tezuka Phantom, Tezuka could just switch to attempting to hit it over the net, which we know that he's capable of.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

In that case, Tezuka wouldn't use Phantom to counter Hecatoncheires as he can just hit it over the net.

What if Tezuka uses Phantom then, Fuji uses Fifth Counter? That seems a little more likely.

 

[FrostyMouse]

What if Tezuka uses Phantom then, Fuji uses Fifth Counter? That seems a little more likely.

Hmm...

I think it depends where on the court Fuji hits Hecatoncheires. Sanada's Rin, although it's not clear what it actually does, only goes a tiny bit into the court; it's hit very short. TPhantom pulls out Rai and GUYU pretty easily, but both of those shots go to the edge of the court, so it wouldn't be that difficult. I seriously doubt if TPhantom can pull out a shot that's hit like Rin. I don't think TPhantom can pull out a drop shot or one of Fuji's cord ball drops. I theorize that TPhantom needs space to work with.

TPhantom might be able to pull Hecatoncheires out of the court, as it goes to the middle of the court, so it wouldn't be that hard. I'd give TPhantom a 65% chance of pulling out Hecatoncheires.

 

[FujiNumberOne]

FrostyMouse, I'm kind of confused. It seems like you're arguing for Hecatoncheires, but then you say Tezuka Phantom has the upper hand...

I'm kind of giving it a 50/50, but not for the regular reasons. I'm not saying that TPhantom has 50% chance of pushing Hecatoncheires out of the court. I think it actually has a very low chance. Hecatoncheires is a technique that pretty much puts a piss ton of spin on the ball. TPhantom works the same way. So if Tezuka hits TPhantom, the ball has a certain spin on it that would force most shots out. But then Fuji puts a ton of slice on the ball, and I think that would do enough to cancel out the TPhantom spin enough to get the ball in the court.

But, like I said, it's kind of 50/50. The reason I'm saying that is because with most of Hecatoncheires's spin being used to cancel out TPhantom's spin, the ball might go in, but I don't think it will have enough spin on it anymore to force it into the net. So I think Hecatoncheires would basically just be a way to break TPhantom, not a way to win the point. That's why I'm going with 50/50.

 

[FrostyMouse]

I firmly believe that Hecatoncheires is a better technique than TPhantom as it doesn't kill your arm like TPhantom does; however, good enough players, such as Tezuka, can hit the ball cleanly over the net against Hecatoncheires without creating a cord ball. Technically, you only get to see Niou's Illusion of Tezuka doing that, but as Niou's Illusion can, obviously Tezuka can.

What I'm truly saying is that based on how Tezuka and Fuji play, if Tezuka uses TPhantom, I can't really see Fuji using Hecatoncheires; I'd see him more using a cord ball drop or something, or possibly Kagerou Zutsumi. In actuality, TPhantom pulls out GUYU, and it's hit to roughly the same part of the court as Hecatoncheires is, and GUYU's ball sort of dies as it is.

If Fuji used Hecatoncheires, and then Tezuka returned it with TPhantom, Tezuka's ball will cross the net, and then Fuji needs to make a return. If Tezuka uses TPhantom, and then Fuji's return is Hecatoncheires, regardless of whether or not Fuji returns it inside in the boundaries of the court, which could be likely, Tezuka still hits a clean return.

What I'm really trying to say is that TPhantom and Hecatoncheires aren't techniques that match up each against each other. In the first match up, Hametsu e no Rondo and Higuma Otoshi both deal with smashes, so it's a perfectly legitimate comparison, but TPhantom and Hecatoncheires just don't oppose each other in the same way.

I'd personally prefer to see Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami vs. World of Ice/Atobe Kingdom.

 

[FujiNumberOne]

Oh, obviously I agree that Tezuka can break Hecatoncheires if Niou's illusion can, and I agree that Kagerou Zutsumi would be a better way to try to defeat TPhantom. But the comparison was just TPhantom v Hecatoncheires.

Also, I feel kind of dumb, but GUYU? What is that an abbreviation for?

I think the main reason that the OP pit these two against each other is because they have the same final effect (forcing an error). But you are right in that they don't really match up against each other, but if they did, I think Hecatoncheires would make it in, but would no longer really be Hecatoncheires. It would just be a normal shot, maybe with a slightly above average backspin, but nothing to cause an error.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Oh, obviously I agree that Tezuka can break Hecatoncheires if Niou's illusion can, and I agree that Kagerou Zutsumi would be a better way to try to defeat TPhantom. But the comparison was just TPhantom v Hecatoncheires.

Also, I feel kind of dumb, but GUYU? What is that an abbreviation for?

I think the main reason that the OP pit these two against each other is because they have the same final effect (forcing an error). But you are right in that they don't really match up against each other, but if they did, I think Hecatoncheires would make it in, but would no longer really be Hecatoncheires. It would just be a normal shot, maybe with a slightly above average backspin, but nothing to cause an error.

Gen'U Yume Utsutsu is the only thing that makes Yamato worth anything.

The manga itself says that Yamato sucks on more than one occasion, but in order to provide a way for Tezuka to gain PoP, Yamato gets an epic bro moment.

Maybe Hecatoncheires makes it in, maybe it doesn't. On JAC, I posted a theory that stated that TPhantom requires the ball to travel a certain distance into the court, be hit with a sufficient amount of speed and force, as well as not be a spin-nullifying return in order to be able to pull the ball out.

At this point in the manga, TPhantom will never again be used. Tezuka gained the moveable Hyakuren, which surpasses TPhantom, and then PoP, which is obviously better.

In case you're unaware, Hecatoncheires is technically illegal. You can't carry the ball the way Fuji does for Hecatoncheires. It's just a side point I thought I'd mention.

 

[FujiNumberOne]

Okay, I wasn't thinking about Yamato at all XD

And I wouldn't necessarily say that Yamato sucks. I mean he was the captain of Seigaku, and was on Court 3. He just kind of keeps his skills on the DL.

I definitely agree that quite a lot of conditions would have to be met for Tezuka Phantom (or really even Tezuka Zone) to work. In real life, honestly, neither would work. You can only put one type of side spin on the ball obviously, so the opponent would just have to hit it the other way where the side spin wouldn't pull it towards (or in the case of TPhantom, push it away from) Tezuka. But, obviously, we have to suspend belief in actual tennis logic for the manga to work :P

No doubt we won't see TPhantom ever again. Chances are, since they had Tezuka leaving, we won't be seeing any of Tezuka's unique techniques anymore (except for in some kind of flash to his life like Konomi did when he was in Kyuushuu).

I was indeed unaware of that. Though, honestly, it wouldn't really matter since it's impossible to carry the ball like that in real life. Unless there was a really coincidental wind blowing, the ball would not stay on the racket when Fuji flips it. And, technically, you wouldn't need to add an insane amount of counter-spin to return it either. Just slicing it would do, because the ball would automatically respond to the spin from your racket, not also keep whatever spin was on it before (except in a case like Tsubame Gaeshi where you ADD spin instead of try to counter it). But, like I said before, you gotta suspend belief in actual tennis logic to go along with what was in the manga.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Okay, I wasn't thinking about Yamato at all XD

And I wouldn't necessarily say that Yamato sucks. I mean he was the captain of Seigaku, and was on Court 3. He just kind of keeps his skills on the DL.

Yamato loses to a young Tezuka as well as to an Atobe who at most only has Insight. GUYU is an impressive technique, but against a player who doesn't play like Tezuka, I question how good it really would be. Obviously GUYU is a good technique, but I'm on the fence about exactly how good.

Yamato is only a 2 in each of the five categories. Go read the fine print on his stat sheet. It says something along the lines of, "How did someone with such low stats become part of the 3rd Court?"

I definitely agree that quite a lot of conditions would have to be met for Tezuka Phantom (or really even Tezuka Zone) to work. In real life, honestly, neither would work. You can only put one type of side spin on the ball obviously, so the opponent would just have to hit it the other way where the side spin wouldn't pull it towards (or in the case of TPhantom, push it away from) Tezuka. But, obviously, we have to suspend belief in actual tennis logic for the manga to work :P

No doubt we won't see TPhantom ever again. Chances are, since they had Tezuka leaving, we won't be seeing any of Tezuka's unique techniques anymore (except for in some kind of flash to his life like Konomi did when he was in Kyuushuu).

We'll see Tezuka again at some point. Maybe in a few years, maybe if and when ShinTeni becomes a weekly serialization in WSJ.

I was indeed unaware of that. Though, honestly, it wouldn't really matter since it's impossible to carry the ball like that in real life. Unless there was a really coincidental wind blowing, the ball would not stay on the racket when Fuji flips it. And, technically, you wouldn't need to add an insane amount of counter-spin to return it either. Just slicing it would do, because the ball would automatically respond to the spin from your racket, not also keep whatever spin was on it before (except in a case like Tsubame Gaeshi where you ADD spin instead of try to counter it). But, like I said before, you gotta suspend belief in actual tennis logic to go along with what was in the manga.

You can't slide the ball around on the face of your racket, even ignoring the flipping part. Don't forget that Tsubame Gaeshi also doesn't work because you can't have a slice/topspin shot. That's irrelevant though.

Obviously you need to suspend actual tennis logic, although the manga still does go with the actual rule of being hit by the ball gives the point to the player who hit the other player.

 

[FujiNumberOne]

Yeah, but Tezuka already had a prototype of PoHW at that point, so that isn't too surprising. And like I said, he just seems the type that doesn't like to show off his skills to everyone, which would explain how he would lose in an unofficial match to Atobe (or was it official? I don't really remember it mentioning them playing, but I just finished re-reading PoT and am now re-reading SPoT, so I should get there soon) and not have high stats.

Oh my goodness, I really hope SPoT becomes a weekly serialization (and can't wait until it does). Yeah, I do think he'll probably show him across a couple chapters like he did when he was in Kyuushuu.

Yeah, that makes sense. But again, the slicing across the face would also be impossible unless the ball was going very slow before Fuji hit it. And yeah, I think the concept of Tsubame Gaeshi makes some sense, but the fact that it rolls FORWARD because of some latent topspin or something is bogus.

Yeah, while the actual tennis moves and stuff are quite insane, the rules presented by Konomi are usually quite accurate (though I remember Inui hitting a shot, them showing the mark, a small portion of it being on the line, and them saying that it was out, so I'm kinda confused about that).

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Obviously some of you don't play tennis. I do, and making a ball slide across the face of the racquet is accidental and easy if you know how to do it. The racquet is parallel to the ball path which allows it to roll. Also if the ball hits the inner bottom part of the racquet frame it will cause the ball to slide across the face. The hard part of 5th counter is the flipping of the racquet. However if you can do it quickly, accurately and consistently, 5th counter is completely possible.

 

[FujiNumberOne]

Actually, I do play tennis. Making the ball slide across the racket is close to impossible, especially if you're playing someone who heats decent shots. With the speed of the ball, the instant it hits the racket, it bounces off of it. That's simple physics. The only time I've ever gotten the ball to stay on the racket is when I'm picking it up inbetween points, and even then it doesn't happen every time. If your racket is parallel to the ball path, you're pretty much going to get NOTHING done. You might get a strong spin on the ball, but unless you're right up at the net, it's not going to go past the net. And even then, it still doesn't slide across the face of the racket unless it was going extremely slow.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Next discussion:
Atobe's Atobe Kingdom vs. Pinnacle of Perfection (generally)

 

[FujiNumberOne]

Hmm, that's a difficult one. We haven't really seen much of Pinnacle of Perfection. But, considering how Ryoma was being absolutely crushed by Yukimura, and PoP got him an easy win, and that with Pinnacle of Perfection, Tezuka seemingly embarrassed Fuji, I would have to say Pinnacle of Perfection. Atobe Kingdom is great, but PoP seems to be unbeatable.

 

[Veni]

Obviously some of you don't play tennis. I do, and making a ball slide across the face of the racquet is accidental and easy if you know how to do it. The racquet is parallel to the ball path which allows it to roll. Also if the ball hits the inner bottom part of the racquet frame it will cause the ball to slide across the face. The hard part of 5th counter is the flipping of the racquet. However if you can do it quickly, accurately and consistently, 5th counter is completely possible.

Dude you can't be serious.
Hitting a ball like that is impossible. (also, even if it would be possible, it's effect would still be void since in real world lobs, heavy-topspin and slice shots would go over the net)

On topic: it's called Pinnacle of PERFECTION. eod