Discussion - This Series as a Whole | Page 2 | MangaHelpers



  • Join in and nominate your favorite shows of the summer season 2023!

Discussion This Series as a Whole

What do you think of this series as a whole?

  • 1. Not even worth my breath

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2. Trash

    Votes: 4 8.0%
  • 3. Awful

    Votes: 3 6.0%
  • 4. Meh

    Votes: 4 8.0%
  • 5. Average

    Votes: 4 8.0%
  • 6. Fine

    Votes: 11 22.0%
  • 7. Good

    Votes: 15 30.0%
  • 8. Very Good

    Votes: 4 8.0%
  • 9. Great

    Votes: 2 4.0%
  • 10. Masterpiece

    Votes: 3 6.0%

  • Total voters
    50

TarXan

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2015
Messages
2,478
Reaction score
3,870
Age
26
Gender
Male
Country
United States
This manga was incredible until Escanor, Meliodas & Merlin wiped out the commandments in the Liones defense arc

The inflating power levels, Meliodas favoritism, one sided battles, antagonists getting fodderized & lack of development for the side characters ruined the series
 
Last edited:

Merlin918

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
609
Reaction score
711
Country
United Kingdom
I agree with pretty much everything you've said. For me, even though I think the quality fell hard after chapter 280 with King's power-up, the chapters between that and 300 were still pretty enjoyable. Not only we still had the whole Camelot battle against the Masters and Zeldris to look forward, but also DK Mel, an element that kept us really interested up until that point. I don't know if I was the only one, but I thought that Nakaba giving the Sins such ridiculous powers ups would serve for a really great final struggle against their Captain possessed by the DK and not being him one-sidedly beating the crap out of them. I thought that maybe that was the reason. You can imagine my disappointment the moment Ban started to fight evenly with him alone. Even at that point, I still had my hopes up, I was thinking to myself: "Well, maybe the DK is holding back or is still unused to his new vessel. Once he fights seriously, everyone will start sweating blood" but sadly that moment never came. In fact, the moment Emo Mel came and elbowed the DK's face to the ground, I knew that the chances of that battle being a great one to be remembered were zero.

Elizabeth, the deuteragonist of this series and the one that should have been more involved in all of this (since she was one of the main reasons for this war to happen in the first place) did absolutely nothing besides being a cheerleader (this also happened with the second battle against the DK, to add more salt into the injury). She could have tried the Grace absorption or done something else besides cheering, everything would have been fine. The AA did nothing either, despite being among the strongest characters of the series and despite the fact that much weaker characters like Diane were doing something. The DK's motives (besides destruction just for the sake of it) were never really fleshed out and there was great potential here for the DK to have had great motivations and for him to have been a great villain. For example, Nakaba could have had the DK being a humble, flexible and good ruler at first but at some point, something would have happened to him which made him realize that ruling like that won't give him any good result, resulting in his reign to be formed in the base of fear and overwhelming power. We could have had a great clash of ideologies between him and his son about that too.

No matter how you look at it, the amount of potential wasted here is enormous. This battle done right could have very well been one of the best to come out in shonen and a classic that could have been remembered for ages. I don't really know what happened to Nakaba with that massive drop in writing quality, but this ended up as a complete mess and it's such a shame.
Yeah, I'm not sure how much I can add to that. The thing is I actually liked the concept behind King's power up, his versatility and flexibility in his magic manipulation felt very well developed. It was all very consistent with how King's powers were previously used. He always had a weakness in lack of flexibility but really overcame it. I wasn't really too upset about him overpowering Mael, since Mael couldn't really control his own powers much anywyays. Due to PL logic i guess it would've been good if he had helped Diane get involved so the power levels were slightly less out of whack, like by launching mael towards the ground so she can join the fight. I had an idea earlier on that Diane probably should have gotten her own power up against Mael as well so that the two of them were more equal and had relevance. It could have been dolor dance related and maybe also foresight related like Dolor's abilities.

Yeah, I thought so too, that the seeming asspulls like with King were a needed step to set up for the big epic final battle. I assumed that Nakaba was setting up for later and making sure Demon King level Meliodas was defeatable by the Sins, and to an extent he was, but he sorta dropped all tension and made his own setup moot as far as i can tell. And yeah i was pretty sad with the dk battle the moment ban showed up too and rekt him.

I would have been fine with it if she had not used Graces or if she had. Nakaba's idea of making her AA tier or beyond was not bad in and of itself, and it would've worked if she'd just consistently fought at AA level in the DK Meliodas battle. She of all people had more business being a central antagonist to Meliodas than Ban did. It's understandable if her power set makes her unsuited for melee, but in that case, she should've still been one of the key players in defeating DK Meliodas. Negating Hellblaze to protect Ban, using Ark like she did against DK-Zeldris, making barriers, there is a lot of stuff she could've done. The Elizabeth that fought Hendrickson was much more in line with what should be expected from someone as central to the series as her, but modern Elizabeth is underwhelming compared to her old self even with these new Goddess powers.

I am actually fine with totally evil and irredeemable villains when done right. To me, Cell's motivations in DBZ were fine, as were Frieza's, since Frieza was just consistently pure evil and psychopathic, and that just made him an obstacle readers would definitely want to see defeated. Evil can make an antagonist interesting if it is done convincingly. But Nakaba went back and forth and couldn't make up his mind whether DK was pure evil or morally complex, so it made the DK seem embarassing. Like, one moment he seems like a ruthless bad guy, then he says he did everything out of love for Meliodas while he is losing, even though he just possessed Meliodas the day before and acted as if he just saw him as a pawn in his schemes at the time. In fact I would even be fine with a cowardly villain or one who gets afraid too as long as the character portrayal is persistent. For example, if his hateful personality contradicted the nature of the Love Commandment or something he could make a joke about it, or if he was too afraid despite being the creator of the piety commandment, it could just be said that he is a hypocrite who doesn't care about his own rules, and someone could point that out IC. But none of it really felt meaningful. Meliodas the sin of Wrath seems to have felt no wrath against the DK despite everything he had done to him and elizabeth. It felt like the ending starting at chapter 302 was all happy go lucky easy times where nothing is serious. Meliodas judged DK for his role as the DK in being a tyrant who brings fear as his 'very duty and very existence' rather than him specifically ruining the life of Elizabeth and him for 3000 years...that was just a terrible moment imo.

What I am saying is that villain motivations can be good writing and flesh out a character for sure. There were many options. Nakaba could have explored just why it is that the SD seems to be eternally youthful as far as we know while the DK looks old and bald. Maybe the DK was eventually going to die of old age due to the different nature of his powers despite his godhood,and this could have influenced his motivations for the Holy War in the past, and wanting to make Meliodas his vessel. Maybe the SD is responsible in some way for this, or Chaos cursed the DK after some offense he committed in the past and made it so he would either eventually die of old age, or just look and feel old forever. Perhaps there was even a conflict between the Goddess Clan and the Demon Clan before the Holy War that we know about, and it influenced the motivations of both sides.

If i wanted to make the demons more morally ambiguous i would not have included the edgy soul eating thing, that just makes them all seem pretty irredeemable. Or i would have said they do eat souls, but the souls still go onto an afterlife either once the demon who ate them dies, or immediately. And that soul eating would just be done for energy efficiency purposes. Other ideas abound like making Zeldris's Piety turn him into a mind controlled slave when he disobeys the DK if Nakaba is so sure he wants Zeldris redeemed at the end. But I would really be fine with it whether or not the DK is pure evil or convincingly morally ambiguous, as long as the action was good, and the individual good guy characters react to everything how they should.

It's kinda sad since Nakaba has done a lot of things with magic using characters that I have not seen done so well in other shonens, and there was a lot interesting going on. At least it was good most of the way through.
 

LaserBeam

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2017
Messages
1,791
Reaction score
1,984
Age
38
Country
Greece
I must seen things because i swear people who i remember they disliked the whole zeldris vs escanor and the 2 masters trashed by merlin now all of a sudden have changed of heart and they actually like those parts enough to give an awful arc 8/10 or 9/10
I am confused gentlemen and ladies because it feels weird to dislike and complain and then suddently after 40, 50 or 70 chapters to have such a change of heart.
 
Last edited:

Samael Morningstar

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Messages
4,385
Reaction score
4,377
Age
22
Gender
Male
Country
India
I must seen things because i swear people who i remember they disliked the whole zeldris vs escanor and the 2 masters trashed by merlin now all of a sudden have changed of heart and they actually like those parts enough to give an awful arc 8/10 or 9/10
I am confused gentlemen and ladies because it feels weird to dislike and complain and then suddently after 40, 50 or 70 chapters to have such a change of heart.
Well I gave it a 3/10(ch 282-346)
 

Shadowlord123

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
1,567
Reaction score
4,654
Gender
Male
Country
Spain
I must seen things because i swear people who i remember they disliked the whole zeldris vs escanor and the 2 masters trashed by merlin now all of a sudden have changed of heart and they actually like those parts enough to give an awful arc 8/10 or 9/10
I am confused gentlemen and ladies because it feels weird to dislike and complain and then suddently after 40, 50 or 70 chapters to have such a change of heart.
? Pretty much everybody on this thread agrees that what happened between chapters 280 until the end at chapter 346 was awful or even worse. Merlin trashing the Masters was shit as well but despite this final arc being awful some of them say that among those awful things, the Assault Squad vs The Top Demons was still passable to some extent considering what came later. Idk where you see the change of heart.
 

LaserBeam

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2017
Messages
1,791
Reaction score
1,984
Age
38
Country
Greece
? Pretty much everybody on this thread agrees that what happened between chapters 280 until the end at chapter 346 was awful or even worse. Merlin trashing the Masters was shit as well but despite this final arc being awful some of them say that among those awful things, the Assault Squad vs The Top Demons was still passable to some extent considering what came later. Idk where you see the change of heart.
Well putting 8/10 or 9/10 the arc of where all this happened is not exactly a bad score it's a great score which means you found it very good or great.
 

Shadowlord123

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
1,567
Reaction score
4,654
Gender
Male
Country
Spain
Well putting 8/10 or 9/10 the arc of where all this happened is not exactly a bad score it's a great score which means you found it very good or great.
But who put an 8 or 9 out of 10 to that arc, though? Because the only marks I see for that arc are 3 at best, even less, which means the vast majority of this thread found that arc awful, to say the least (ofc, me included).

If you're talking about the overall mark of the series, then yeah, there are some people who voted 8, 9 or even a 10 for overall score, but that's the series as a whole and not only that arc. I won't dig too much into it though, that's their opinion and I respect it.

In fact, I'm still really interested to see a comment from someone who gave the series a 9 or even a 10, and it's not irony.
 

LaserBeam

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2017
Messages
1,791
Reaction score
1,984
Age
38
Country
Greece
But who put an 8 or 9 out of 10 to that arc, though? Because the only marks I see for that arc are 3 at best, even less, which means the vast majority of this thread found that arc awful, to say the least (ofc, me included).

If you're talking about the overall mark of the series, then yeah, there are some people who voted 8, 9 or even a 10 for overall score, but that's the series as a whole and not only that arc. I won't dig too much into it though, that's their opinion and I respect it.

In fact, I'm still really interested to see a comment from someone who gave the series a 9 or even a 10, and it's not irony.
Yeah me too lol
 

OtakuFreak

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
4,695
Reaction score
9,450
Age
23
Country
Fun Forum
Just like how @Shadowlord123 mentioned, the decline of the quality for the series came after the Mael arc, or the specific event of King powering up to such a significant degree. I think this arc was one of the last times Elizabeth ever did anything productive for the story (except fighting the Demon King with Meliodas) as she was just subjugated to the role of a cheerleader.

As an Elizabeth fan, it was greatly disappointing to see her make such a strong conviction of wanting to end the holy war, save Meliodas/Mael and make Derieri's death not in vain (whilst looking at her corpse btw) only for her to turn around and become a spectator.

As I said at the time, Nakaba should've had Elizabeth absorb the graces in order to actually use the potential she had. Instead of King shooting up above 200,000 from 40,000 (which was dumb) we would have the main female character using 25% of the Supreme Deity's power and be in the parallel position as to the main male character, Meliodas, who had 5 commandments at the time.

Additionally, since Elizabeth would have half or all the graces (which could've led into a Supreme Deity possession at the same time Meliodas becomes possessed) it would've brought a realistic method in fighting against the Demon King, rather than Ban who ended up pretty much soloing him (which was dumb).

In my opinion, it would've been a big positive for Nakaba to do this, but he didn't for some reason (and never even referenced to the possibility).
 

sobreno

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
5,343
Reaction score
3,026
Country
Djibouti
I put 6, it is fine, could be far better judging by his potential.
 

MonsterEnvy

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
725
Reaction score
201
Gender
Male
Country
Canada
Correction the Supreme Deity was never a main villain of the series that was always the Demon King alone.
 

Shadowlord123

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
1,567
Reaction score
4,654
Gender
Male
Country
Spain
Correction the Supreme Deity was never a main villain of the series that was always the Demon King alone.
DK was the main villain alone because Nakaba wanted it to be in this way until the end, but actually this makes absolutely no sense and is dumb as hell. The Demon King is considered the main villain of the series because he cursed the two main protagonists of the series and forced them to live an endless suffering of life. Likewise, the Supreme Deity should have been the other main villain as she also took part (and with the same relevance) in the process of cursing both of them. She should have had the same relevance as the Demon King, but for some reason Nakaba never really introduced her. Not even a word. Both Mel and Eli acted until the end like the DK was the only one who cursed them, and as if the SD didn't even exist in the first place, which is downright ridiculous with what we're told beforehand. Not even a word regarding her, despite her taking the same role as the DK in creating the main core of this series' plot and the main core of their suffering: the curse.

Even if Nakaba introduces her in the sequel, what's the point anymore? With Arthur as the King of Chaos on their side, the SD looks like a nobody. Besides, that shouldn't be her story in the first place. She has little business with the kids of the Sins (which will most likely be the new protagonists of the sequel and the ones the story will be centered around).

Just my two cents on the matter. Sorry for the little rant :p
 
Last edited:

Samael Morningstar

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Messages
4,385
Reaction score
4,377
Age
22
Gender
Male
Country
India
What if SD somehow turns out to be far far stronger than the DK to be relevant in the sequel
 

Shadowlord123

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
1,567
Reaction score
4,654
Gender
Male
Country
Spain
What if SD somehow turns out to be far far stronger than the DK to be relevant in the sequel
Plot twist: the SD was far stronger than the DK all along and she did most of the work in sealing Chaos away. The DK was just a cheerleader most of the time, just like Eli in the majority of the important events of the manga. Then again, this would create even more contradictions and plot holes in the story, unless Nakaba can give a really good explanation about it.
 

Samael Morningstar

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Messages
4,385
Reaction score
4,377
Age
22
Gender
Male
Country
India
Plot twist: the SD was far stronger than the DK all along and she did most of the work in sealing Chaos away. The DK was just a cheerleader most of the time, just like Eli in the majority of the important events of the manga. Then again, this would create even more contradictions and plot holes in the story, unless Nakaba can give a really good explanation about it.
Maybe she intentionally never destroyed the DC because if that happens , chaos will be unleashed and will be a far greater threat, maybe that's why even Mael at high noon didn't do anything because the SD has told him not to. This is just my thory tho
 

Tristan

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2013
Messages
2,352
Reaction score
2,188
Country
Germany
She has little business with the kids of the Sins (which will most likely be the new protagonists of the sequel and the ones the story will be centered around).
Except Tristan, right?
 

Shadowlord123

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
1,567
Reaction score
4,654
Gender
Male
Country
Spain
Except Tristan, right?
Yeah, more or less. Tristan is the only one with which the SD could have some sort of business with, besides Mel and Eli. There's a lot of business going on there, but the protagonists seem to have amnesia :XD
 

MonsterEnvy

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
725
Reaction score
201
Gender
Male
Country
Canada
DK was the main villain alone because Nakaba wanted it to be in this way until the end, but actually this makes absolutely no sense and is dumb as hell. The Demon King is considered the main villain of the series because he cursed the two main protagonists of the series and forced them to live an endless suffering of life. Likewise, the Supreme Deity should have been the other main villain as she also took part (and with the same relevance) in the process of cursing both of them. She should have had the same relevance as the Demon King, but for some reason Nakaba never really introduced her. Not even a word. Both Mel and Eli acted until the end like the DK was the only one who cursed them, and as if the SD didn't even exist in the first place, which is downright ridiculous with what we're told beforehand. Not even a word regarding her, despite her taking the same role as the DK in creating the main core of this series' plot and the main core of their suffering: the curse.

Even if Nakaba introduces her in the sequel, what's the point anymore? With Arthur as the King of Chaos on their side, the SD looks like a nobody. Besides, that shouldn't be her story in the first place. She has little business with the kids of the Sins (which will most likely be the new protagonists of the sequel and the ones the story will be centered around).

Just my two cents on the matter. Sorry for the little rant :p
The DK was not the main villain because of the curse.

He was the main villain alone because it was his forces that were constantly attacking everyone. The Demon Clan led by the Demon Kings were the primary antagonists of the series.
The SD's servants the Goddess Clan were allies, not antagonists. People were guessing they would turn out to be villians, but they remained allies the whole series. The SD has no reason to be a villain.
 

OtakuFreak

Registered User
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
4,695
Reaction score
9,450
Age
23
Country
Fun Forum
The SD's servants the Goddess Clan were allies, not antagonists. People were guessing they would turn out to be villians, but they remained allies the whole series. The SD has no reason to be a villain.
She killed the main characters more than once. That's the definition of a villain lmao

maybe have her be the villain but have the Goddesses be allies and then they eventually turn against her because she is evil
 

Shadowlord123

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
1,567
Reaction score
4,654
Gender
Male
Country
Spain
The DK was not the main villain because of the curse.

He was the main villain alone because it was his forces that were constantly attacking everyone. The Demon Clan led by the Demon Kings were the primary antagonists of the series.
The SD's servants the Goddess Clan were allies, not antagonists. People were guessing they would turn out to be villians, but they remained allies the whole series. The SD has no reason to be a villain.
So you're saying she isn't a villain or that she has no reason to be one. Then what is she? An ally or a completely neutral person, even though she is clearly against the relationship of the two protagonists and went as far as to punish them for over 3000 years with a pretty fucked up method along with the DK? She was the one who cursed Mel (going with the retcon Nakaba did to make the DK relevant again) and made him immortal just so he could see her own daughter die over and over again. If that's not the definition of a villain, I don't know what a villain is.

Just because her clan helped to take down the Demon Clan, that doesn't make her a true ally. The Goddess Clan simply took advantage of the situation of the Sins so they could wipe out their fated enemies with more ease.

The Supreme Deity had all the reasons and portrayal in the world to be a villain. Nakaba not caring enough to introduce her in the main story and leaving her for a sequel (if we're lucky) with characters she barely has any business against (overall) is another thing though.
 
Top