Discussion Tsukasa's Empire vs Empire of Science

[TotalEconomist]

Who will win? Who's side is correct? What are the benefits and flaws of each Empire?

 

[Belserion]

I would say ultimately Senkuu's empire would prevail since he basically wants civilization to progress to what it once was. However I will admit to understanding where Tsuakasa is coming from. Granted he's basically judging from his own experiences which is selfish and he's a bit of a dictator, but him wanting the world to be made up of the younger people and to keep it "pure" is admirable. I can't fault him for that. His intentions are good but the way he's going about it by basically murdering the older people and anyone who poses a threat to him takes away from his ultimate goal imo. In the end you can't create something pure from something dirty, and as the manga progresses I can see Tsukasa falling deeper and deeper into this pit he's already digging for himself. Senkuu's brain will overcome Tsuaka's brawn. Plus Senkuu has already created gunpowder, so it's safe to assume the weapons in his empire will be a lot more advanced. And he has spies in Tsukasa's camp to keep him a step ahead. So far the advantage is his. But if Tsukasa manages to revive someone who can at least counter Senkuu in the brains department it'll be a lot more difficult to predict lol.

 

[Ebony Maw]

To be honest it probably depends upon how quickly Tsukasa finds them and whether he finds anyone who is somewhat similar to him physically.

If he finds Senkuu quickly and has a small amount of followers that are even somewhat comparable to him physically, Senkuu's chances aren't great. The best thing Senkuu has is his inventions, but he needs time to build them, so if Tsukasa were to somehow find the village and ambush them with a small group he could probably win. However, I don't see that happening due to plot.

On the flip side, the longer Senkuu has to tinker the more likely he is to win. As of right now, he could already create chemical weapons which are likely one of the best counters to Tsukasa as he can't really dodge gasses once they've been released. If he gets baited into an enclosed area and gassed it's pretty much game over, and even if he somehow escaped, he would likely be incapacitated for a while. And as I said, he could theoretically do that now. If Senkuu gets enough time, Tsukasa literally has no chance of victory as he won't be able to deal with Senkuu's creations. Especially if Senkuu eventually creates biochemical weapons.

This is just my guess as of now though, Tsukasa could eventually obtain such a massive army to the point that Senkuu gets beat by sheer numbers for all I know.

 

[Demonspeed]

Tsukasa wanted Senku for a reason. He doesn't have a chance to win unless he finds someone similar to recruit.

 

[Styx]

I think they both have their merits and disadvantages. Tsukasa's reasons are actually pretty true. The world will only grow to be as corrupt and evil as it was again, but his logic is flawed. With or without Senkuu pushing it along faster than it took last time, it'll happen eventually.

Though I would personally rather live in a world without governments etc etc Senkuu's Empire of Science has to prevail. The vast good outweighs the bad.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Senku's got the brains + the fighting prowess of the village, so in that sense he would seem to have the edge, although we don't know what Tsukasa's built up so far. Still, I don't expect it to be that one-sided. Tsukasa's going to be bringing to life every youngster he can find, most likely, and with their young impressionable minds I can see them being something of a cult of personality, probably with much greater numbers, and no doubt he'll be training them too.

As for who's right, I'm actually not so sure. I'd say Senkuu on instinct, but what Tsukasa does have right imo is that the resetting of the world is an opportunity to make things better than before, because the society they came from (ie ours) has a hell of a lot of flaws about it. Just bringing it back exactly as it was would be a bit of a shame really. So Tsukasa's ambition of restarting with an empire of innocent children has a certain appeal too. To be fair though, if you bring a load of unsupervised kids up in a world where the strongest survive it could become pretty brutal itself, and like I said, cult-y.

 

[Belserion]

As for who's right, I'm actually not so sure. I'd say Senkuu on instinct, but what Tsukasa does have right imo is that the resetting of the world is an opportunity to make things better than before, because the society they came from (ie ours) has a hell of a lot of flaws about it. Just bringing it back exactly as it was would be a bit of a shame really. So Tsukasa's ambition of restarting with an empire of innocent children has a certain appeal too. To be fair though, if you bring a load of unsupervised kids up in a world where the strongest survive it could become pretty brutal itself, and like I said, cult-y.

This was my mindset too. But then really thinking about it Tsukasa has put himself basically as "God". I mean branding every adult as bad and every kid as good is too simple. I can sympathize with him especially after the glimpse we got of his backstory, but he's not only reviving the young people, he's murdering the older ones by breaking their statues. I think this is what Senkuu is mostly against. Tsukasa is like that leader in Children of the Corn lol.

 

[Hermit]

I thought about this, and if you think about it, Senkuu is currently in a village where his Science is aimed at helping out the villagers. Or well, 'ethical' Science, if we can term it in black and white terms:
-Coming up with ramen, a food for the masses.
-Trying to save Ruri by coming up with a cure for her.
-Making weapons and giving them to Kohaku's friends (Their names elude me for now)
Tsukasa's empire might be the exact opposite, an antithesis of sorts to Senkuu's science, meaning the science practised there could be 'unethical'. A few examples (from real life instances) would be:
-Human cloning (Its the Stone Age, and im not sure how well this would fit, but it would be an interesting twist if Tsukasa somehow adopts this into his empire)
-Experiments being conducted on the frail young ones.
Alternatively, Tsukasa can also adopt magic in his empire Science vs Magic?

 

[hai_Priesty]

First time posting in Dr. Stone forum and already needs to disclaim that I may sound very harsh about Tsukasa's aspiration. (Gomennasai! X_X)

However I will admit to understanding where Tsuakasa is coming from. Granted he's basically judging from his own experiences which is selfish and he's a bit of a dictator, but him wanting the world to be made up of the younger people and to keep it "pure" is admirable. (...) In the end you can't create something pure from something dirty, and as the manga progresses I can see Tsukasa falling deeper and deeper into this pit he's already digging for himself.

Senkuu's brain will overcome Tsuaka's brawn. Plus Senkuu has already created gunpowder, so it's safe to assume the weapons in his empire will be a lot more advanced. And he has spies in Tsukasa's camp to keep him a step ahead.

I will agree to Tsukasa's aim are creating a pure world being admirable, but the execution part is horrible, and even more problematic, LOGICALLY UNSOUND.

Firstly, he clearly stated to the tune of adults=tainted=kill (to base someone purely on age is very slipshod) and that he only wants pure children to restart the world order, but then the first and only sample of character of people he chose......... ASAGIRI GEN!!? The most untrustworthy (not evil) guy imaginable!? Did he going to justifying that Gen is 19 and so isn't an adult? I understand that pure-minded children are no-good for spying mission, but it sounds to me Tsukasa values are there only when it suits him.

He stated that he wanted to revive only pure children, but, the statues among the people he prioritize reviving clearly stated otherwise. I mean, like over 90% mostly badass-looking muscular people, almost none of them look remotely like they're below 17. I've tried counting the statues actually, also looks like his revive list is less than 5% female, Almost none of them remotely look like those "innocent", "shiny eyed children" he seems to hold high regard of. So if we go by the "Judge a person not by what he says but what he does" rule, erm......................... -_- His "sample" looks actually looks more like he's for Darwinism. And his populace = army. Peace?

I also recommend that (if you have time to burn =P) anyone interested to read up about Pol Pot (https://www.thoughtco.com/pol-pot-1779833), the Cambodian dictator / mass murderer who managed to murder more than over 1.5 million people of HIS OWN PEOPLE in just a very short period of reign. Almost anyone educated, like doctors and teacher, will fit his criteria to be kept in torture camp or be killed as he deemed them to be already tainted by "outside" influence. Outside influence he classified as Buddism, China, Westerner, and pretty much anything he don't like , (The no. of similarities for Tsukasa's overly-simplified rule of Adult=Tainted=Greed=Kill is eerie. The philosophy Tsukasa's stated at chpt 4, like people wanting to own things and profiting from it = dirty = kill, is also highly similar to Pol Pot's Marxist and Maoist-influenced philosophies.) Many, many Japanese 2ch I read repeatedly compared Tsukasa to Pol Pot in the Japanese thread :/ Although Tsukasa certainly is much more Charismatic than Pol Pot.

Bonus point : Pol Pot, just like Maoist China in cultural revolution and their red army, en-massed an army of energetic, over-zealous teenagers as their foundation of their new army. Unfortunately (Fortunately for everyone else) they are not knowledgeable, inexperienced in strategy, so when paranoid Pol Pot reign attacked Vietnam and massacred villagers in Vietnamese territory, Vietnam retaliated with modern (sort-of), professional army and crushed the Pol Pot's teenage army.

So I'll agree also that Tsukasa, for all his "good" intentions, probably will dig deeper and went off the deep side of pool, like another very famous Knight Templar, Yagami Light of Death Note. Just look at his 5? 6? 7? digit body count - as he went on his plan about creating a world without sinners and himself becoming the God of the new world - while repeatedly doing everything diabolic to save his own behind.

So far the advantage is his. But if Tsukasa manages to revive someone who can at least counter Senkuu in the brains department it'll be a lot more difficult to predict lol.

Gen may be a good reference - If someone is very knowledgeable and intelligent, it is actually not that likely he'll be against science ^o^ Most of them will oblige on the surface out of fear of their dictator, but they'll be the first to do a face turn if they even know another scientist is alive and is creating a kindgom of science and making antibiotics.

Some like Gen that's into magic immediately warms up to all possibilities in Senkuu's world.

To be honest it probably depends upon how quickly Tsukasa finds them and whether he finds anyone who is somewhat similar to him physically.

On the flip side, the longer Senkuu has to tinker the more likely he is to win. As of right now, he could already create chemical weapons which are likely one of the best counters to Tsukasa (...)

This is just my guess as of now though, Tsukasa could eventually obtain such a massive army to the point that Senkuu gets beat by sheer numbers for all I know.

For the time being it will depend on how well Gen does his job reassuring Tsukasa =P (Talking about which I'm starting to worry about Yuzuriha. -_-)

Weapon reigns. I think it was chapter 10 or 11 where narration stated (when Yuzuhira threw the "bomb" to Tsukasa ) that technology resets ALL strength differences, if you have good weapons even Suika can hurl some crude grenade from above and there's nothing a battle guy can do about her.

Btw, (not my expertise but I read books saying) that in almost all warfare, how strong your country depends largely on how much supply (food and replenishables for the weapon) you have, and that Technology advanced people almost always have the upper hand because they can create, store or move whatever things as and where they need it. (good intel brings your army to the place where they should be, good transport tech like GPS ensures your reinforcements are here quickly when your Nakamas are attacked.) Most wars of 20th century - including Germany - are lost when army supply lines are cut (or forcefully "cut" when the devastated country ran out of food and money). After which the soldiers either surrender, or they'll lose within a few days after running out of food & water / bullets / ammunition (for semi-obvious reasons).

As for who's right, I'm actually not so sure. I'd say Senkuu on instinct, but what Tsukasa does have right imo is that the resetting of the world is an opportunity to make things better than before, because the society they came from (ie ours) has a hell of a lot of flaws about it. Just bringing it back exactly as it was would be a bit of a shame really. So Tsukasa's ambition of restarting with an empire of innocent children has a certain appeal too. To be fair though, if you bring a load of unsupervised kids up in a world where the strongest survive it could become pretty brutal itself, and like I said, cult-y.

Interestingly in the science vs (Tsukasa's) brawn and ideals debate, I feel Magma is a living prove that you can remove civilization and science and all the good things and wealth that comes from civilization, and people are still as greedy / evil as ever. The material wealth in the village is nothing like modern Japan has seen (what can a strong guy like Magma gain in the village and he couldn't obtain for himself anyway, and damn he isn't even interested in beautiful woman like Ruri.) and yet people will still kill for that measly little "status" thing. I agree about the brutal world you described, and I suspect also that some of the kids will grow up very brutal and unkind due to the brutailty of living in the nature, become as uncivilized as many violent indigenous tribes actually are, and thus end up with keeping many of the same flaws as Tsukasa saw in modern society, PLUS some more violent tendencies from ancient tribes, if Tsukasa Kingdom were to win.

Or well, 'ethical' Science, if we can term it in black and white terms:
-Coming up with ramen, a food for the masses.
-Trying to save Ruri by coming up with a cure for her.
-Making weapons and giving them to Kohaku's friends (Their names elude me for now)

I remembered that Tsukasa had (or used to have) a sick sister. I wonder how if his heart will sway a tiny bit when he heard about trying to find cure for someone's sick sister.

 

[Franz]

And so the war begins..

 

[yugito]

And tsubasa leads an army of bunch of brainless monkey brutes. He's really flawed indeed

 

[Belserion]

So from previous chapters I guess it's safe to call this one a draw? We can reason that technically Senkuu's science empire won but since he chose to go the route of a ceasefire it's definitely split evenly. I have to say making dynamite in such a tense moment was well done of Senkuu. No way Tsukasa could counter that. Knowing Senkuu as well as he does i'd think he'd have every defense he could think of in place. He was prepared for their eventual attempt to rescue Chrome, so I thought he was going to keep up with Senkuu for a bit lol. From a tank to Nitroglycerin Senkuu was just too much for Tsukasa. I don't mind this outcome.

 

[Hermit]

So from previous chapters I guess it's safe to call this one a draw? We can reason that technically Senkuu's science empire won but since he chose to go the route of a ceasefire it's definitely split evenly. I have to say making dynamite in such a tense moment was well done of Senkuu. No way Tsukasa could counter that. Knowing Senkuu as well as he does i'd think he'd have every defense he could think of in place. He was prepared for their eventual attempt to rescue Chrome, so I thought he was going to keep up with Senkuu for a bit lol. From a tank to Nitroglycerin Senkuu was just too much for Tsukasa. I don't mind this outcome.

Yep, this is pretty much it A draw which brought about a truce. What I'm curious about though is, provided Tsukasa lives on after the current events. Will the alliance be permanent or was this just a one time thing?
What will also happen to his empire? Will they automatically merge into Senkuu's village or still maintain their independence?

 

[Belserion]

I think ceasefires usually last until someone breaks the terms. So I guess since, despite what he says, Senkuu has the upper hand then let's say someone from his camp attacks someone from Tsukasa's or someone uses the dynamite against the other faction, then it would be safe to assume the ceasefire cancelled lol. As for them merging, Tsukasa did say from now on he would fight for Senkuu so it looks likely that they will merge and expand the village.

 

[Hermit]

I think ceasefires usually last until someone breaks the terms. So I guess since, despite what he says, Senkuu has the upper hand then let's say someone from his camp attacks someone from Tsukasa's or someone uses the dynamite against the other faction, then it would be safe to assume the ceasefire cancelled lol. As for them merging, Tsukasa did say from now on he would fight for Senkuu so it looks likely that they will merge and expand the village.

You mean...