Discussion USA VS FRANCE

[mathematicianrcg]

USA VS France

We used their lineups they used in the quarterfinals

D2: Mser/Mser VS Tristan/Timothe
D1: Dodo/Mser VS Edgar/Jonathan
S3: Kiko VS Ludovic
S2: Alan VS Osval
S1: Ralph VS Camus

You can flip doubles if you think that us more fair. But based on what we saw in their play. And what we hear about their feats and hype.

Who do you think will win between USA and France?

 

[Hardy]

USA VS France

We used their lineups they used in the quarterfinals

D2: Mser/Mser VS Tristan/Timothe
D1: Dodo/Mser VS Edgar/Jonathan
S3: Kiko VS Ludovic
S2: Alan VS Osval
S1: Ralph VS Camus

You can flip doubles if you think that us more fair. But based on what we saw in their play. And what we hear about their feats and hype.

Who do you think will win between USA and France?

I think USA would play with Jackson instead of Alan and maybe pair him with Dodo. That way they can outpower France's main doubles. I suspect that's what they did vs Spain (and failed) and what Switzerland expected.

Their Msers lose the next game.

Whoever they have in S3 loses to Ludovic.

Kiko wins as usual.

Then it's up to Ralph vs Camus. I have Ralph winning but who knows.

 

[Ganonslayer101]

Can we even discuss it? Our understanding of the American team is mostly speculation.
We know Dodo can jump high, but since he accepted the Drive B challenge we don't know his other abilities. Kiko always wins 6-4 but why that is remains unclear. Alan requires opponents to have an injury to exploit to be his most effective. And Ralph vaguely can't be scored on the same way twice, but what that entails is unknown. And then we just have names.

On the flip side we no so little about Camus. We don't know how his love aura works and we only can vaguely scale him to Duke.

I guess if we force it:
D2: France wins, US MSers are unremarkable
D1: US wins if we give Dodo the benefit of the doubt as US #2
S3: US wins because Kiko always wins
S2: France wins since Osval has no canonical injury to exploit
S1: US wins since Ralph beat Amadeus who scales to pre-Volk 100% Byoudin who is stronger than Duke whom Camus scales to

 

[Hardy]

S1: US wins since Ralph beat Amadeus who scales to pre-Volk 100% Byoudin who is stronger than Duke whom Camus scales to

I understand that everyone greatly improved since then, though, so this heavy variance makes it really hard to make any sort of scaling. Byoudouin was already better than Amadeus and then died (which improved his Pirate) and then he kept travelling through the world with Duke.

We don't know if the coaches knew about Duke's Kijin or not.

My reasoning for Ralph winning was that Bertie neutralised Copy! Camus rather easily meanwhile Ralph has that good W vs Amadeus. But maybe the copy as 50% like Byoudouin's. Who knows.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I think USA would play with Jackson instead of Alan and maybe pair him with Dodo. That way they can outpower France's main doubles. I suspect that's what they did vs Spain (and failed) and what Switzerland expected.

Their Msers lose the next game.

Whoever they have in S3 loses to Ludovic.

Kiko wins as usual.

Then it's up to Ralph vs Camus. I have Ralph winning but who knows.

Nice. Interesting

So you think Dodo/Jackson > Tristan/Timothe?

Maybe Giesel is the strongest after USA main characters Ralph, Dodo, Kiko, and Alan

 

[Hardy]

Nice. Interesting

So you think Dodo/Jackson > Tristan/Timothe?

Maybe Giesel is the strongest after USA main characters Ralph, Dodo, Kiko, and Alan

The order Ralph calls the members to play Ryoma is: Kiko, Dodo, Alan, Geisel, Miller, Pacino. I like to think it's from strongest to weakest. Jackson is in the lineup vs Spain instead of Alan so that kinda tracks.

It's 2 completely unknown players vs 2 guys that didn't need to show much to win, idk. Just made up a match up lol.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Wow. Usa is winning in the poll

I guess Ryoma saying that " USA will beat Japan for sure" during Pre WC Tournament (Though echizen Brothers were still in USA then)

and

USA upsetting #2 Switzerland

are enough to scale them above France?

 

[-Ken-]

USA upsetting #2 Switzerland

are enough to scale them above France?

This is what scale them above France for me. Unless France team against Japan isn't France best team and they are holding a lot of people back.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

This is what scale them above France for me. Unless France team against Japan isn't France best team and they are holding a lot of people back.

Yeah. And its not like Switzerland used Randoms. They probably used their best lineup MINUS Tatsuta.

Meanwhile USA used Ralph, Dodo, Kiko, and Alan. Their 4 Strongest Hsers.

They both used Weak Msers Pain in doubles that causes for them to split the doubles.

The Crucial Mistake is Sending Henri against Kiko who is better in his game. (Spinning the ball).

And even matching Up Peter against Alan. Maybe Tatsuta would have beat Alan without the latter giving the game for free.

IMO (best lineup with 3 Msers Rule)

USA Best Lineup is:

D2: Mser/Mser
D1: Dodo/Mser
S3: Alan
S2: Kiko
S1: Ralph

Switzerland Best lineup will be

D2: Randy/Albert
D1: Peter/Henri
S3: Filler Mser
S2: Tatsuta (if he is a Mser)
S1: Amadeus

France Best Lineup is the same as they used against Japan. Imo

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 8, 2023, Original Post Date: Oct 8, 2023 ---

This is what scale them above France for me. Unless France team against Japan isn't France best team and they are holding a lot of people back.

I mean Camus did tell Duke

"This tournament requires 3 Msers to play. How to use them is the key to win"
Implying France will do better in All Hsers format

Terrible excuse for France though since Japan used arguably one of their weaker lineups. FOUR Msers, The weakest and the third Weakest Genius 10. (Not to mention thet downgraded their S1 from Byo to Duke)

Yet Japan won 3-1. Lmao

 

[Adamska]

France will lost to Japan overall. but it could be a little bit better ending for them.
It is really hard to tell, We didn't get to see some players from both team
Cameo himself. Osvald, and two HSers who looks strong in appearance. (Maybe they were as good as G5?)
Alan, even Dodo, and Kiko. both of em, we didn't seen nothing of them.
Both of them Wasted. Since US beated Swiss with politics, I don't consider them wasted.
However, Konomi-San shows good match between US of A Vs Swiss and then put them face to Spain.
But Vs Spain or before that he should have shows us a little more about US of A, that how strong they are but he skip Alan's match or didn't shows us any special from dodo or kiko, overall, they weren't deep enough in the other hand France also was skipped teams too.
So Spain beating USA, with close result (though it was 3-0) but it didn't give us any clue, looks to me they were really weak, rather than showing Spain was terribly strong.
It's looks, like this: A strong team, beats a weak team.

 

[Hardy]

France will lost to Japan overall. but it could be a little bit better ending for them.
It is really hard to tell, We didn't get to see some players from both team
Cameo himself. Osvald, and two HSers who looks strong in appearance. (Maybe they were as good as G5?)
Alan, even Dodo, and Kiko. both of em, we didn't seen nothing of them.
Both of them Wasted. Since US beated Swiss with politics, I don't consider them wasted.
However, Konomi-San shows good match between US of A Vs Swiss and then put them face to Spain.
But Vs Spain or before that he should have shows us a little more about US of A, that how strong they are but he skip Alan's match or didn't shows us any special from dodo or kiko, overall, they weren't deep enough in the other hand France also was skipped teams too.
So Spain beating USA, with close result (though it was 3-0) but it didn't give us any clue, looks to me they were really weak, rather than showing Spain was terribly strong.
It's looks, like this: A strong team, beats a weak team.

It depends, sometimes you just get results.

The direct example is Rokkaku. They were stronger than Seigaku when they met and even defeated them the year before, and yet we see them losing 3-0 before Ryoma even had a chance to play.

Kiko beat Ryoma repeteadly and Ralph won against Amadeus. This is not a weak team by any means.

 

[Adamska]

It depends, sometimes you just get results.

The direct example is Rokkaku. They were stronger than Seigaku when they met and even defeated them the year before, and yet we see them losing 3-0 before Ryoma even had a chance to play.

Kiko beat Ryoma repeteadly and Ralph won against Amadeus. This is not a weak team by any means.

Of course they are not weak. But I don't feel much of sensation about US team.
U know like:
Wow they beat Kiko or Alan or ...
They must be monster! You know?
But now it's like:
Who lost his matches? And how good they were that Spain beat them like that then how strong Spain is?

Now Konomi-San wanted to show us how strong Spain is, then we have better guess about U.S team power. Most of the times is other way around, butI think having less time and etc made him to doing it, in this way.
I don't if it works, works on Atobe. But this one is bit difficult to put.


However they beat Swiss, that lost to Australia then US, both of this teams, tricked them strategically so this makes No2 a dumb team.
So to me strong US beated weak team, even Alan who could have won drop his match vs Swiss No2. 2 things happened
1. Alan's move make Swiss weaker and yet Konomi-San didn't bring any information about Alan, He probably No2 of US but tell me how good he is? G5 or more or less? That goes for Swiss.
Problem is about character development which didn't give us any clue about these teams.
So less deep in this area.
He could have done better, Konomi-San a bit more details and deepness in teams.
I wonder if we drop MSers, which team would be strongest between these 8 teams?

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Of course they are not weak. But I don't feel much of sensation about US team.
U know like:
Wow they beat Kiko or Alan or ...
They must be monster! You know?
But now it's like:
Who lost his matches? And how good they were that Spain beat them like that then how strong Spain is?

Now Konomi-San wanted to show us how strong Spain is, then we have better guess about U.S team power. Most of the times is other way around, butI think having less time and etc made him to doing it, in this way.
I don't if it works, works on Atobe. But this one is bit difficult to put.


However they beat Swiss, that lost to Australia then US, both of this teams, tricked them strategically so this makes No2 a dumb team.
So to me strong US beated weak team, even Alan who could have won drop his match vs Swiss No2. 2 things happened
1. Alan's move make Swiss weaker and yet Konomi-San didn't bring any information about Alan, He probably No2 of US but tell me how good he is? G5 or more or less? That goes for Swiss.
Problem is about character development which didn't give us any clue about these teams.
So less deep in this area.
He could have done better, Konomi-San a bit more details and deepness in teams.
I wonder if we drop MSers, which team would be strongest between these 8 teams?

In terms of group league and second round

Switzerland beat Japan 3-0
Japan Beat Australia 3-0
Australia Best Switzerland 3-2
AND
Greece beats Australia 3-1
Japan Beats Greece 3-0

Arent all teams required to use different set of players every match? So, it is hard to use those matches as a basis.

As a team, how will you use your lineup?

Will you split your best players across every match?

Will you use a strong team against a higher ranked team. And a significantly weaker team against a lower ranked team?

Will you use a quick kill lineup? (Like Switzerland did against Japan)

 

[Adamska]

In terms of group league and second round

Switzerland beat Japan 3-0
Japan Beat Australia 3-0
Australia Best Switzerland 3-2
AND
Greece beats Australia 3-1
Japan Beats Greece 3-0

Arent all teams required to use different set of players every match? So, it is hard to use those matches as a basis.

As a team, how will you use your lineup?

Will you split your best players across every match?

Will you use a strong team against a higher ranked team. And a significantly weaker team against a lower ranked team?

Will you use a quick kill lineup? (Like Switzerland did against Japan)

I think the problem is that we know overall Swiss is really strong when we count their HSers only. However one of their major vulnerability is strategy, Australia and US, win by this but US was really stronger in case of Power Scale.
However the problem as I said is: we couldn't get to see Swiss real strength. I'm not satisfied.
...
But overall
Germany=Spain<Japan<US<Swiss<France
Are the stronges teams.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I think the problem is that we know overall Swiss is really strong when we count their HSers only. However one of their major vulnerability is strategy, Australia and US, win by this but US was really stronger in case of Power Scale.
However the problem as I said is: we couldn't get to see Swiss real strength. I'm not satisfied.
...
But overall
Germany=Spain<Japan<US<Swiss<France
Are the stronges teams.

To be fair with Switzerland. The 3 Msers rule really hurt them.

To be honest I think the only Strong singles players in Swiss are

Amadeus, Tatsuta, and Peter.

(Albert and Randy are strong in doubles)

Tatsuta is as strong/skilled as Amadeus (minus the experience)

Peter is underrated because basically Alan defeated him (we know the story)
But it kinda just a matchup advantage. Since Peter was mentioned doing pretty well against Alan before the former reinjure himself.

But, that's it. Henri I think is not as strong. Kiko dominated him. Henri have potential though.

Wait, this should be in swiss thread. Lol

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Oct 15, 2023 ---

I think the problem is that we know overall Swiss is really strong when we count their HSers only. However one of their major vulnerability is strategy, Australia and US,

I agree with this.

Even a SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKER Australia team outsmarted them.

Who cares if Noah the strategist gameplan against them?

Noah have a gameplan against Japan and Greece too. Australia lost 0-3 and 1-3 respectively.

So, it's not like Noah's gameplan is that significant imo.

I agree with ken that we should consider Switzerland having #1 in terms of overall strength. Meaning they have lesser fodders. But probably weaker in top 7 vs top 7 matchups against other top teams.

IN SHORT:

Switzerland is strong. But have terrible managing and splitting distribution of their lineups.