Character Was Yukimura the strongest JP MSer rep prior to his match against Tezuka?

[chikkychappy]

But Romeo, a MSer, was as good as evolved Atobe. It wasn't until one of the latest evolutions that it became one sided, and even then Romeo got yet another upgrade to remain at that level. Atobe got upgrades off screen to be leveled with Dorgias, another HSer, and even then he lost 3 straight points against base Romeo.

So we got BASE ROMEO >>Atobe = Dorgias <= TnK Kin who kept his serve against TnK Oni. Who walked over QP.

Ain't no way you're taking that one serve Kintarou held against TnK Oni to heart. Kintarou had a two-point TnK advantage when he held his serve, winning two more pity points isn't earth shattering. Narrative-wise it is clear that normal Oni was decimating normal Kintarou. Once Oni also achieved TnK the power balance reset, we have no reason to believe that Kintarou's TnK is somehow superior to Oni's TnK.

Tnk Tezuka >>> TnK Kintarou. Yukimura beat TnK Tezuka. Yukimura was called #1 MSer even after Kintarou achieved TnK. Yukimura considers the G5 way above him. You can power scale from Dorgias from there.

 

[Hardy]

Idk why Kintarou's being ranked over Yukimura at this point. He beat Dorgias easily in the group stages, but around this time Yukimura was also explicitly referred to as the #1 among JP MSers. I mean that's the whole point of Tezuka vs Yukimura, Japan was sending out their biggest best MS baddie against their former colleague who's currently taking the MS world by storm. And no, I don't think Ryoma is above Yukimura at this point (although he will be). Tezuka vs Yukimura was a fight between the two best Japanese MSers point blank.

It was probably long ago. In the matchup thread Yukimura lost to Irie, and then Ryoma lost to Duke but is beating Irie. So the average person rates Duke >> Yukimura here.

I wait for a consensus to change the tier list. Kin and Yukimura are listed in the same tier in the first post. In the other thread I actually placed Yukimura above Kin.

Ain't no way you're taking that one serve Kintarou held against TnK's Oni to heart. Kintarou had a two-point TnK advantage when he held his serve, winning two more pity points isn't earth shattering. Narrative-wise it is clear that normal Oni was destroying normal Kintarou. Once Oni also achieved TnK the gap went back to before, we have no reason to believe that Kintarou's TnK is somehow superior to Oni's TnK.

Tnk Tezuka >>> TnK Kintarou. Yukimura beat TnK Tezuka. Yukimura was called #1 MSer even after Kintarou achieved TnK. Yukimura considers the G5 way above him. You can power scale from Dorgias from there.

I am not taking it to heart, but he certainly performed much better than QP before the latter unlocked his aura.

Base Kin was relatively equal if not better than base Oni, it wasn't until the latter activated his Ki Jin that the tides changed. It could be attributed to Oni using only 60% of his stats, but in any case Oni didn't look stronger than the MSer in the first games.

I did not say TnK Kin > TnK Oni. I didn't even say they were equal.

We know that Kintarou was better than Yukimura entering the camp so I do not know where are you getting that Yukimura has been consistently better than him. Yukimura's match against Tezuka was more of a team effort than anything else. He specifically trained against Tokugawa JUST to beat Tezuka. He got advice from Atobe. He got years of data from Inui that fits and buffs his style perfectly. He got 2 upgrades for this match (one specifically to counter the Tezuka Zone). Granted, I don't remember where it was stated that Yukimura was the best MSer (can you remind me?).

 

[chikkychappy]

It was probably long enough. In the matchup thread Yukimura lost to Irie, and then Ryoma lost to Duke but is beating Irie. So the average person rates Duke >> Yukimura here.

I mean, I agree. Even if Irie is below Duke/Tane/Oni, there's still enough wiggle room to put Irie above Yukimura.

I am not taking it to heart, but he certainly performed much better than QP before the latter unlocked his aura.

Base Kin was relatively equal if not better than base Oni, it wasn't until the latter activated his Ki Jin that the tides changed. It could be attributed to Oni using only 60% of his stats, but in any case Oni didn't look stronger than the MSer in the first games.

Oni was literally on coach mode during that time, gradually building up from 5 to 10 balls, not dissimilar to Tokugawa and Sanada recently. Even non-TnK Oni scored a point against TnK Kintarou (would've been more, but Oni already pulled out TnK too), whereas non-TnK Oni got outplayed by non-aura QP. These two matches aren't even from the same realm. You're basing everything off from Kintarou scoring two more points after getting two free TnK points against someone who probably was having fun in a match that happened a couple of hundred chapters ago. Then there's the writing perspective, where Konomi had different goals for both matches which is why they flowed the way they did which makes comparing them point by point, scoreline by scoreline rather tricky.

We know that Kintarou was better than Yukimura entering the camp so I do not know where are you getting that Yukimura has been consistently better than him.

Based on what, that 100th match statistic that can be interpreted many ways? Yukimura was consistently put as #1 MSer after Tezuka left. He was the only MSer chosen against the G20, he was the only MSer with guts to face Volk, right before Greece Konomi straight up called him the number 1 MSer.

Prince of Tennis II - Vol. 18 Ch. 178 - The Real Battle Begins - MangaDex

Read Prince of Tennis II Vol. 18 Ch. 178 "The Real Battle Begins" on MangaDex!

mangadex.org

In an interview Konomi also described Yukimura as "Another Prince of Tennis."

(Now compare it with: Akaya="Potential", Sanada="Sengoku Warlord", Atobe="The One Ore-Sama to Rule them All", Mouri="Sleepy Jusaburou"; Oshitari="Cool guy from Kansai"; Ochi="Unconceited Man")

Yukimura's match against Tezuka was more of a team effort than anything else. He specifically trained against Tokugawa JUST to beat Tezuka. He got advice from Atobe. He got years of data from Inui that fits and buffs his style perfectly. He got 2 upgrades for this match (one specifically to counter the Tezuka Zone). Granted, I don't remember where it was stated that Yukimura was the best MSer (can you remind me?).

It was a team effort up to a point. The first two games against were so one-sided precisely because of Yukimura's prep, without prep it would've been 1-1 with Tezuka having more chances to break (simply because he was the better player). Then at some point Inui's data became useless, Atobe's advise became outdated once Ultimate came in. After Tezuka activated TnK, MSers admitted that all of them combined can't beat TnK Tezuka, that's when Yukimura stepped up with his ZST and the team effort thing was never heard from again. Then after that Yukimura kind of beat or at least nullified Ultimate with Future which again is 100% his own effort since no one knew about Ultimate before the match.

 

[Hardy]

Oni was literally on coach mode during that time, gradually building up from 5 to 10 balls, not dissimilar to Tokugawa and Sanada recently. Even non-TnK Oni scored a point against TnK Kintarou (would've been more, but Oni already pulled out TnK too), whereas non-TnK Oni got outplayed by non-aura QP. These two matches aren't even from the same realm. You're basing everything off from Kintarou scoring two more points after getting two free TnK points against someone who probably was having fun in a match that happened a couple of hundred chapters ago. Then there's the writing perspective, where Konomi had different goals for both matches which is why they flowed the way they did which makes comparing them point by point, scoreline by scoreline rather tricky.

Yet it was never stated that he was on a stat limiter or any sort of thing like that for that match, other than the fact that he hadn't unleashed Ki Jin. Every time a limit was used we got informed about it, why wouldn't it be the case now? In the exact same round it was revealed that Byoudouin hadn't used even 50% of his abilities against Tokugawa, wouldn't Konomi do the same to hype Oni?

That non-TnK Oni that scored against TnK Kin was Ki Jin Oni (unless you believe he stopped using that aura just to flex on Kintarou). The moment QP saw the Demon he shat his pants.

Why does it matter if it was a hundred chapters ago? Oni didn't even play between that match and his against QP. Or are you saying the gap between him and Kintarou grew bigger, somehow, despite us seeing that the MSers have faster growth rates?

Based on what, that 100th match statistic that can be interpreted many ways? Yukimura was consistently put as #1 MSer after Tezuka left. He was the only MSer chosen against the G20, he was the only MSer with guts to face Volk, right before Greece Konomi straight up called him the number 1 MSer.

Prince of Tennis II - Vol. 18 Ch. 178 - The Real Battle Begins - MangaDex

Read Prince of Tennis II Vol. 18 Ch. 178 "The Real Battle Begins" on MangaDex!

mangadex.org

In an interview Konomi also described Yukimura as "Another Prince of Tennis."

(Now compare it with: Akaya="Potential", Sanada="Sengoku Warlord", Atobe="The One Ore-Sama to Rule them All", Mouri="Sleepy Jusaburou"; Oshitari="Cool guy from Kansai"; Ochi="Unconceited Man")

Kintarou went from not standing a chance and not even removing Yukimura's jacket to being able to beat him (clearly mirroring Atobe vs Sanada). Is there any other way to interpret that?

Kintarou and Ryoma weren't in the main camp when Yukimura was selected, the second strongest player around was either Atobe (who ironically got selected as number 1) or Akutsu, and we aren't talking about them.

Do you really believe players like Akutsu and Kintarou wouldn't face Volk?

I concede about the description in 178, though, I clearly didn't remember it.

I'm unsure as to what I'm supposed to do with that description. Niou is a "sexy entertainer", what does that tell us about how good he is?

Not sure what we are really arguing here, either, since I told you that in the other thread Yukimura is above Kin and in this one they are in the same tier.

It was a team effort up to a point. The first two games against were so one-sided precisely because of Yukimura's prep, without prep it would've been 1-1 with Tezuka having more chances to break (simply because he was the better player). Then at some point Inui's data became useless, Atobe's advise became outdated once Ultimate came in. After Tezuka activated TnK, MSers admitted that all of them combined can't beat TnK Tezuka, that's when Yukimura stepped up with his ZST and the team effort thing was never heard from again. Then after that Yukimura kind of beat or at least nullified Ultimate with Future which again is 100% his own effort since no one knew about Ultimate before the match.

When did the data become useless? Yukimura managed to steal Tezuka's future because he was able to defend consistently and build patterns, and data would only strengthen this. Data would only make ZST stronger, too, for that matter.

Atobe's advice pushed Yukimura to achieve Mirage Mirror, so no it didn't just stop working.

Melodramatic Fuji is the only one that says they "may not have a chance fighting together". That doesn't mean their efforts stopped helping right there.

 

[chikkychappy]

Yet it was never stated that he was on a stat limiter or any sort of thing like that for that match, other than the fact that he hadn't unleashed Ki Jin. Every time a limit was used we got informed about it, why wouldn't it be the case now? In the exact same round it was revealed that Byoudouin hadn't used even 50% of his abilities against Tokugawa, wouldn't Konomi do the same to hype Oni?

That non-TnK Oni that scored against TnK Kin was Ki Jin Oni (unless you believe he stopped using that aura just to flex on Kintarou). The moment QP saw the Demon he shat his pants.

Why does it matter if it was a hundred chapters ago? Oni didn't even play between that match and his against QP. Or are you saying the gap between him and Kintarou grew bigger, somehow, despite us seeing that the MSers have faster growth rates?

What are you even saying here? Are you saying that Oni didn't give his all against QP because we didn't see his Kijin floating around the entire match? That Oni was stronger at that one point against Kintarou vs than at any other point in his entire match with QP? QP was shocked when he saw the Demon (as anyone would be), but that's it. TnK is still Oni's trump card which he activated by the second set against QP and never let go off. Kijin or not Oni is more than a match to TnK Kintarou, once Oni pulled out TnK as well it was an even greater stomp. There is no way G10 Kintarou remotely even compares to SF QP. LoP QP>TnK Oni>>>Non-aura QP>>Non-Tnk Oni>TnK Kintarou.

Why should there be a rule that Konomi needs to state that Oni was on 60% limiter? Isn't it obvious the way Oni was directing the match, going from 5 balls and 10 balls and watching and congratulating Kintarou's progress? The limiter wasn't also explicitly mentioned to in Tane/Omagari vs Sanada/Akutsu, but we know it was on because all G10 used it against the MSers, except Tohno who at one point went 80%.

I brought up the fact hundreds of chapters ago because Konomi changes his mind, forgets things etc. Major tiering and narratives don't change within a couple of hundreds of chapters, and yes the gap between Oni and Kintarou should've narrowed somewhat by then. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about Kintarou holding two measly points on his serve off-screen ages ago and use it to scale up to motherfreaking QP of all people. (Did QP even exist in Konomi's mind at this point?)

Kintarou went from not standing a chance and not even removing Yukimura's jacket to being able to beat him (clearly mirroring Atobe vs Sanada). Is there any other way to interpret that?

Sanada and Yanagi called it a draw, but Yukimura gave it to Kintarou as a matter of principle. Beyond this we don't know enough except that Kintarou grew rapidly, went from being completely wiped to giving Yukimura a competitive fight. We don't know how competitive Yukimura was, did he also take it slow the way he did against Sanada at first, was it a 1-in-5, 1-in-10 or 1-in-20 blip? Then there's the fact that when the camp rolled around anyway Yukimura was still #1.

Kintarou and Ryoma weren't in the main camp when Yukimura was selected, the second strongest player around was either Atobe (who ironically got selected as number 1) or Akutsu, and we aren't talking about them.

All the MSers were eligible to be selected against G20. The revolutionary brigade returned 10 days before G20 came back, in those days they held matches to determine the representatives. Yukimura was the only one who got selected, above Ryoma, Kintarou, Sanada, etc.

Atobe wasn't selected as #1, he was selected to be Captain. There's no evidence that MSers have explicit ranking the way G20 do, aside from Konomi clearly labeling Yukimura as #1.

Do you really believe players like Akutsu and Kintarou wouldn't face Volk?

I concede about the description in 178, though, I clearly didn't remember it.

I'm unsure as to what I'm supposed to do with that description. Niou is a "sexy entertainer", what does that tell us about how good he is?

It tells me that you shouldn't write-off someone Konomi called #1 MSer and described as "Another Prince of Tennis" that easily. Y'all swatting his opinion away that G5>>> him like it means nothing.

When did the data become useless? Yukimura managed to steal Tezuka's future because he was able to defend consistently and build patterns, and data would only strengthen this. Data would only make ZST stronger, too, for that matter.

Atobe's advice pushed Yukimura to achieve Mirage Mirror, so no it didn't just stop working.

Melodramatic Fuji is the only one that says they "may not have a chance fighting together". That doesn't mean their efforts stopped helping right there.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2023 ---

Inui's data isn't absolute. It's been shown time and time again that he couldn't even get proper data on Fuji and Tezuka in his three years in MS. Inui doesn't have much on TnK Tezuka and then even less when he moved to Germany. That's why I see his data being most useful in the first two games during which time Tezuka did not even score a single point, after that Tezuka and Yukimura went beyond it and Inui's data broke down.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that Yukimura was the MSers best bet against Tezuka, no one else had both the skills and intelligence to effectively utilize the data and Atobe's advise even if it were handed to them. Anyone else except Ryoma would have been wiped.

 

[Hardy]

I split this conversation in 2 threads since it was growing confusing and this Yukimura vs the rest conversation doesn't really have much to do with the current tier list/s.

What are you even saying here? Are you saying that Oni didn't give his all against QP because we didn't see his Kijin floating around the entire match? That Oni was stronger at that one point against Kintarou vs than at any other point in his entire match with QP? QP was shocked when he saw the Demon (as anyone would be), but that's it. TnK is still Oni's trump card which he activated by the second set against QP and never let go off. Kijin or not Oni is more than a match to TnK Kintarou, once Oni pulled out TnK as well it was an even greater stomp. There is no way G10 Kintarou remotely even compares to SF QP. LoP QP>TnK Oni>>>Non-aura QP>>Non-Tnk Oni>TnK Kintarou.

Yes, I am saying that. Players routinely hide aces under their sleeves, why wouldn't it be the case here? It makes no sense otherwise, since Base QP was outpowering Oni without using any sort of special moves yet Oni with Ki Jin has access to a 10 in Power. Why would QP be surprised about the Ki Jin if Oni had been using it all along?

Why is there no way G-10 Kin compares to Base QP? Based on what? Even more, Kin from a whole month later after beating Dorgias?

Why should there be a rule that Konomi needs to state that Oni was on 60% limiter? Isn't it obvious the way Oni was directing the match, going from 5 balls and 10 balls and watching and congratulating Kintarou's progress? The limiter wasn't also explicitly mentioned to in Tane/Omagari vs Sanada/Akutsu, but we know it was on because all G10 used it against the MSers, except Tohno who at one point went 80%.

I brought up the fact hundreds of chapters ago because Konomi changes his mind, forgets things etc. Major tiering and narratives don't change within a couple of hundreds of chapters, and yes the gap between Oni and Kintarou should've narrowed somewhat by then. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about Kintarou holding two measly points on his serve off-screen ages ago and use it to scale up to motherfreaking QP of all people. (Did QP even exist in Konomi's mind at this point?)

He was directing the match. And Kin responded accordingly every single time. It was only when Oni unleashed his Ki Jin that it became one sided.

Tane/Ohmagari were literally playing 1v2 and didn't use most of their Special moves. The % limiter may be mostly used to not injure players, the exceptions being Mach (which may be to avoid unnecessary strain?) and Kimijima (who was paired with Tohno). For the top boys, Byoudouin went pretty much all out with his moves butused a limit accordingly, whereas Oni sealed his Ki Jin until late in the first set and never used his GJK.

Two measily points that we did not see QP take in any sort of fashion.

Honestly, though, I wouldn't mind if Oni was using a limiter, makes for fun discussion in the stat thread. I'm just relatively skeptical it really happened since he was already limiting himself in other ways.

Sanada and Yanagi called it a draw, but Yukimura gave it to Kintarou as a matter of principle. Beyond this we don't know enough except that Kintarou grew rapidly, went from being completely wiped to giving Yukimura a competitive fight. We don't know how competitive Yukimura was, did he also take it slow the way he did against Sanada at first, was it a 1-in-5, 1-in-10 or 1-in-20 blip? Then there's the fact that when the camp rolled around anyway Yukimura was still #1.

Why wouldn't Yukimura be competitive?

Yukimura was "still" number 1 how? He had lost to Ryoma.

All the MSers were eligible to be selected against G20. The revolutionary brigade returned 10 days before G20 came back, in those days they held matches to determine the representatives. Yukimura was the only one who got selected, above Ryoma, Kintarou, Sanada, etc.

Atobe wasn't selected as #1, he was selected to be Captain. There's no evidence that MSers have explicit ranking the way G20 do, aside from Konomi clearly labeling Yukimura as #1.

Fair. Won't lie, I mixed up the order of the events.

Atobe really was selected as number 1, though, the list is number based. The numbering seems based on performance rather than overall level (with official matches being held in higher regard). The Atobe comment was just pointing our the irony of the situation.

It tells me that you shouldn't write-off someone Konomi called #1 MSer and described as "Another Prince of Tennis" that easily. Y'all swatting his opinion away that G5>>> him like it means nothing.



Inui's data isn't absolute. It's been shown time and time again that he couldn't even get proper data on Fuji and Tezuka in his three years in MS. Inui doesn't have much on TnK Tezuka and then even less when he moved to Germany. That's why I see his data being most useful in the first two games during which time Tezuka did not even score a single point, after that Tezuka and Yukimura went beyond it and Inui's data broke down.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that Yukimura was the MSers best bet against Tezuka, no one else had both the skills and intelligence to effectively utilize the data and Atobe's advise even if it were handed to them. Anyone else except Ryoma would have been wiped.

Are we? How? That one comment has been brought up several times in several discussions.

Inui's data isn't absolute but it certainly helps. He CAN get data on Tezuka, when they played each other he knew the Zero Shiki was coming, for example, even if he didn't know about the Tezuka Zone. Yes, Tezuka brought the Ultimate Zone (and the Zero Shiki Lob that promptly scored), but that alone doesn't invalidate data.

I'm unsure about that, so I created this thread. In order to face TnK Tezuka in that match Yukimura got:

-Inui's data.
-Training with Tokugawa specifically to counter Tezuka.
-Atobe's advice against the Zone. This advice led him to develop a new move that gave him a finisher and allowed him to counter the Zone.
-Konomi gave him ZST so he could rally with TnK.
-Mental focus so high and draining that he cannot replicate it for the selection matches.

(Later on Tezuka gets the Ultimate Zone and Yukimra steals his dream. As these are both mid-match let's not count them.)

5 "buffs" just to match up with Tezuka. Why can't anyone in a remotely close tier be able to perform similarly if given all these benefits?

These quick evolutions aren't unique to Yukimura. For example, a day after the selection matches Atobe trained with Dorgias and immediately after that he considered himself "able to rally with TnK". Kintarou already could. Ryoma already could. Fuji got his own ZST and looked as strong as Ryoma. Kirihara was like 3 tiers below and then unlocked a move that made him able to rally with TnK, THEN he evolved it and got even faster to the point that he "jumped" dimensions.

Imo Yukimura was a really strong bet, but only became THE one because he was trained for it (and even then, Tezuka looked stronger in the final set, only ever losing rallies that went on for way too long).

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Japan's Lineup Vs Germany is interesting

Cause the coaches carefully and seriously select the lineup. (Other rounds they randomly select. Mifune just rolling dice. Lmao)

So, they selected Yukimura to play against Tezuka. Over Ryoma, Atobe, and Yukimura.

(Maybe they thought Ryoma will take long to recover his injuries suffered against Ludovic)

but yeah I think Coaches thought Yukimura is the stronger Japan Team Mser back then

 

[chikkychappy]

Yes, I am saying that. Players routinely hide aces under their sleeves, why wouldn't it be the case here? It makes no sense otherwise, since Base QP was outpowering Oni without using any sort of special moves yet Oni with Ki Jin has access to a 10 in Power. Why would QP be surprised about the Ki Jin if Oni had been using it all along?

Why is there no way G-10 Kin compares to Base QP? Based on what? Even more, Kin from a whole month later after beating Dorgias?

What do you mean by "use" Kijin? Oni's Kijin appeared twice and that was whenever he's breaking new boundaries. It appeared during the match with Kintarou to indicate that he returned to his former level of being the #1 rep of All Japan. This is the Oni QP faced from the very beginning. Then his Kijin appeared again in his match against QP to indicate that he's surpassing his own limit by still competing even with broken wrists. Even after this Oni didn't receive any major skill buff, he was still struggling but he was being carried on by his determination and spirit (which again is what his Kijin's appearance represented).

He was directing the match. And Kin responded accordingly every single time. It was only when Oni unleashed his Ki Jin that it became one sided.

Tane/Ohmagari were literally playing 1v2 and didn't use most of their Special moves. The % limiter may be mostly used to not injure players, the exceptions being Mach (which may be to avoid unnecessary strain?) and Kimijima (who was paired with Tohno). For the top boys, Byoudouin went pretty much all out with his moves butused a limit accordingly, whereas Oni sealed his Ki Jin until late in the first set and never used his GJK.

Two measily points that we did not see QP take in any sort of fashion.

Everyone was at a 60% limiter. Even Mach. Byoudin too it was already mentioned in his match against Volk. That's why Tohno going for 80% was explicitly mentioned because it was an aberration.

Holding on to two of-screen points from a chapter where QP hasn't even existed in Konomi's mind is just freaking crazy. Ain't no way. You're taking this waaaay too literally.

Why wouldn't Yukimura be competitive?

Yukimura was "still" number 1 how? He had lost to Ryoma.

The ranking is based on the camp results not Nationals. Why are you still questioning it when Konomi said so? Yukimura was selected above Ryoma in G20, although Ryoma was probably mucking about and not even using TnK (Ryoma not using TnK throughout most of NPOT is a sore sticking point btw). Then when Yukimura was referred to as #1 MSer before Greece, Ryoma was a rep for the US. Konomi could have said "He intimidates his opponents with Yips" or whatever in his card but Konomi went out of his way and called him #1 because he wanted Tezuka to convincingly beat the #1 JP MSer and vindicate him after his losses to Sanada and Atobe in the original series.

Atobe really was selected as number 1, though, the list is number based. The numbering seems based on performance rather than overall level (with official matches being held in higher regard). The Atobe comment was just pointing our the irony of the situation.

Where does it say that? Why isn't Niou ranked #2 or #3 when he took Mouri's badge? Why is Fuji who didn't even play against G10 or G20 ranked above Niou? There is no evidence of an explicit ranking. HSers are absolutely obsessed with it and it keeps getting brought up but for MSers not one of the players or the coaches referred to it. There is a ranking in Konomi's mind and he will give it to you if you put a gun against his head, but it played no part in the story. Atobe was selected as Captain because he is the one with the best leadership skills among the top players.

Are we? How? That one comment has been brought up several times in several discussions.

Inui's data isn't absolute but it certainly helps. He CAN get data on Tezuka, when they played each other he knew the Zero Shiki was coming, for example, even if he didn't know about the Tezuka Zone. Yes, Tezuka brought the Ultimate Zone (and the Zero Shiki Lob that promptly scored), but that alone doesn't invalidate data.

I'm unsure about that, so I created this thread. In order to face TnK Tezuka in that match Yukimura got:

-Inui's data.
-Training with Tokugawa specifically to counter Tezuka.
-Atobe's advice against the Zone. This advice led him to develop a new move that gave him a finisher and allowed him to counter the Zone.
-Konomi gave him ZST so he could rally with TnK.
-Mental focus so high and draining that he cannot replicate it for the selection matches.

(Later on Tezuka gets the Ultimate Zone and Yukimra steals his dream. As these are both mid-match let's not count them.)

5 "buffs" just to match up with Tezuka. Why can't anyone in a remotely close tier be able to perform similarly if given all these benefits?

These quick evolutions aren't unique to Yukimura. For example, a day after the selection matches Atobe trained with Dorgias and immediately after that he considered himself "able to rally with TnK". Kintarou already could. Ryoma already could. Fuji got his own ZST and looked as strong as Ryoma. Kirihara was like 3 tiers below and then unlocked a move that made him able to rally with TnK, THEN he evolved it and got even faster to the point that he "jumped" dimensions.

All MSers evolved like crazy but Yukimura started from much a higher base that's why he's still strongest.

So you think Atobe, Kintarou and Fuji can take more games off Tezuka? You think Konomi didn't throw out the best MSer in the Tezuka match of the tournament? After Konomi explicitly called Yukimura #1? I don't know what to say anymore. Carry on I guess.

(and even then, Tezuka looked stronger in the final set, only ever losing rallies that went on for way too long).

Tezuka was stronger in the final two games. Tezuka steamrolled Yuki 5-0 with Ultimate (even reaching matchpoint), then Yukimura outplayed him (won five straight games) with Future. Tezuka finally beat Future in the final two games after Ryoma's intervention. He did this by steeling his resolve and consequently got a mental upgrade against a mental technique (Future) and won the match convincingly.

Cause the coaches carefully and seriously select the lineup. (Other rounds they randomly select. Mifune just rolling dice. Lmao)

Agreed, it felt more really based on skills, it's so freaking stacked. The only one I would question is Akaya, he was chosen specifically to be a match-up to Siegfried. I also consider the match against Spain to be more plot/match-up based.

 

[-Ken-]

I don't think so. It's clear Yukimura have his training specifically to counter against Tezuka and have even got data from Inui and we know how much data can help the players. It could simply be that Yukimura trained against Tezuka the most so he got the most shot at beating Tezuka compare to Ryoma who I don't have any doubt is better than him.

 

[Hardy]

What do you mean by "use" Kijin? Oni's Kijin appeared twice and that was whenever he's breaking new boundaries. It appeared during the match with Kintarou to indicate that he returned to his former level of being the #1 rep of All Japan. This is the Oni QP faced from the very beginning. Then his Kijin appeared again in his match against QP to indicate that he's surpassing his own limit by still competing even with broken wrists. Even after this Oni didn't receive any major skill buff, he was still struggling but he was being carried on by his determination and spirit.

Use Ki Jin = get buffed by an aura. Like the Pirate, the Destruction God, the Samurai vs Knight duel...

Only 3 players got "???" Stats in 10.5. Ryoga, who they literally had no info of, and Oni and Byoudouin, who were the only ones to show they had dominated Spirits (Demon and Pirate, respectively). Later this is shown in stats as a 10 in Power for Oni and a 10 in Mental for Byoudouin.

But then how was QP outpowering him if Oni's POWER was a 10, going beyond's human limit and performing on an interdimensional level? 6 is a Pro's level, 7 is aboslutely elite, flawless. The only explanation is that his power wasn't a 10, which in turn means he wasn't "using" Kijin.

In chapter 279 (QP vs Oni) Kintarou says Oni hadn't been giving it his all, and yet the image used in his flashback is NOT TnK Oni. Hell, he hadn't even used the GJK yet.

Everyone was at a 60% limiter. Even Mach. Byoudin too it was already mentioned in his match against Volk. That's why Tohno going for 80% was explicitly mentioned because it was an aberration.

Holding on to two of-screen points from a chapter where QP hasn't even existed in Konomi's mind is just freaking crazy. Ain't no way. You're taking this waaaay too literally.

We don't know if everyone had a 60% limiter, no. Yes, I mentioned Mach and Byoudouin.

Tohno and Duke were mentioned, since they injure their opponents with their tennis. It's the reasoning Kimijima gives to Tohno the night before.

You can use the same "Konomi hadn't planned ahead" argument for the HSers holding back or not. He decided halfway through the G-10 matches what the hell to do with the team, to the point he had considered having a team of HSers and one of MSers. With 2 teams the position of the HSers is never in danger = they can limit themselves with little to no. With a single team they cannot. But imo it's really lame reasoning, it's much better to discuss what we actually got.

On the other hand, this goes against my argument but:

Player	Speed	Power	Stamina	Mental	Technique	Total
Byoudouin	5	7	5.5	10	7	34.5
Byoudouin 60%	3	4.2	3.3	6	4.2	20.7
Rounded up	3	4.5	3.5	6	4.5	21.5
Tokugawa	4.5	4.5	4.5	4.5	4.5	22.5

Rounding up the stats, even if Byoudouin was limiting himself Tokugawa was ahead in just Speed and Stamina, and the latter may not have been a factor since the points were short. The moment Byoudouin went all out with his moves and activated his Pirate he got a stat in Pro level (even on a limiter), and everything combined was too much for Tokugawa to handle.

If we consider, then, that Konomi respected this when he displayed Byoudouin's stats, perhaps he did the same with Oni. Making up numbers here since's half of Oni's stat sheet is covered but:

Player	Speed	Power	Stamina	Mental	Technique	Total
Oni	5	10	6	7	6	34
Oni 60%	3	6	3.6	4.2	3.6	20.4
Rounded up	3	6	4	4.5	4	21.5
Tooyama	4	5	5	4	4	22

Something like that makes more sense than Kintarou being as good as someone that was better in every single stat.

So perhaps Oni was playing at his full potential except for the 10 in Power against QP, whereas against Kin he did the same as Byoudouin.

The ranking is based on the camp results not Nationals. Why are you still questioning it when Konomi said so? Yukimura was selected above Ryoma in G20, although Ryoma was probably mucking about and not even using TnK (Ryoma not using TnK throughout most of NPOT is a sore sticking point btw). Then when Yukimura was referred to as #1 MSer before Greece, Ryoma was a rep for the US. Konomi could have said "He intimidates his opponents with Yips" or whatever in his card but Konomi went out of his way and called him #1 because he wanted Tezuka to convincingly beat the #1 JP MSer and vindicate him after his losses to Sanada and Atobe in the original series.

I'm not questioning that. "Then there's the fact that when the camp rolled around anyway Yukimura was still #1." to me reads "the moment the camp started".

Also, it needs to be said it's a 1-off line from before Kin improved as he played Dorgias, before Ryoma returned (he didn't even want him back, at the point), before Atobe showed Ice Emperor, before Fuji unlocked Light Wind against Australia (which is effectively as strong as ZST) and before Akutsu unlocked 8C. In the meantime Yukimura got nothing except making his ship with Sanada stronger.

I'm not sure Konomi wanted to vindicate anything (did he say that in an interview?). Anyone holding up to that is doing it for no reason. Tezuka's been in a whole different level ever since he played Yamato, and only grew even stronger thanks to training with Volk.

Compare that to Konomi giving Jirou a forced W against Kabaji just to validade his spot as the No.2 in Hyotei then throwing him into the garbage bin again. Now THAT was needed.

Where does it say that? Why isn't Niou ranked #2 or #3 when he took Mouri's badge? Why is Fuji who didn't even play against G10 or G20 ranked above Niou? There is no evidence of an explicit ranking. HSers are absolutely obsessed with it and it keeps getting brought up but for MSers not one of the players or the coaches referred to it. There is a ranking in Konomi's mind and he will give it to you if you put a gun against his head, but it played no part in the story. Atobe was selected as Captain because he is the one with the best leadership skills among the top players.

It's never stated. I said seemingly.

Niou was literally dead on the floor for 2/3s of the match against Ochi/Mouri, he got no badge there, and his match against the Mutsus wasn't official. Fuji probably performed better off-screen.

Is Atobe's leadership better than Yukimura's? How?

So you think Atobe, Kintarou and Fuji can take more games off Tezuka? You think Konomi didn't throw out the best MSer in the Tezuka match of the tournament? After Konomi explicitly called Yukimura #1?

Konomi was likely planning to have Atobe, Kintarou and Ryoma in the finals already (all 3 of them being "main characters" at one point), naturally neither of them could play Tezuka. He also cannot have Fuji play Tezuka because he needs to constantly tease their fans and Fuji "won't lose to the same opponent twice". Finally, he had sent Akutsu to Japan (while revealing in Best Advice that Akutsu wanted to go back to Australia and that he certainly had time to do it).

I'm not sure any of them would had done better, that is not the point.

He made Akaya play in D1 over someone like Sanada that got a massive buff the round before. He placed 4 MSers against France and split Mouri/Ochi to make the former play with someone that hates him. Tokugawa and Irie haven't played yet at all. Yes, the lineups are questionable.

Lol ok. I don't know what to say anymore. Carry on I guess.

It's just a discussion because we like this series, we do not have to agree on everything.

No need to be passive aggressive either.

 

[chikkychappy]

In chapter 279 (QP vs Oni) Kintarou says Oni hadn't been giving it his all, and yet the image used in his flashback is NOT TnK Oni. Hell, he hadn't even used the GJK yet.

First do we even know where that flashback image is from? It looks to me like a generic shot of Oni and Kintarou at the beginning of the match. If so then it basically says that Kintarou saw Oni at full strength sometime during that. Against QP Kintarou said "You haven't seen Uncle Oni's strength yet" and right on cue, Oni summoned TnK. After that Kintarou never talked about Oni not being full strength again. Isn't it clear what Kintarou meant?

I'll just say that if I'm going to follow your logic to its end I am forced to conclude Non-Aura QP = Dorgias which is certainly... a take.

It's never stated. I said seemingly.

Niou was literally dead on the floor for 2/3s of the match against Ochi/Mouri, he got no badge there, and his match against the Mutsus wasn't official. Fuji probably performed better off-screen.

Niou got the #10 badge. During those times he was "dead on the floor" he was actually observing Atobe so that he can copy him and synchro with him. He was as instrumental as Atobe was in winning that match.

Is Atobe's leadership better than Yukimura's? How?

Idk but Konomi has to choose someone right? I mean it's between Yukimura, Shiraishi and him. He is confident, leads the biggest MS team in the series, has his "insight" and was also by far the most popular character (9,000 chocolates baby). Have we ever even heard someone refer to Atobe as "#1 of JP MS team"?

I'm not questioning that. "Then there's the fact that when the camp rolled around anyway Yukimura was still #1." to me reads "the moment the camp started".

He's behind TnK Ryoma and debatably, pre-TnK Tezuka. Kintarou managed a draw under circumstances we know nothing about, but Yukimura was still better. I say this because we know that Yukimura's considered better than Kintarou during the camp and it makes no narrative sense for Kintarou to surpass Yukimura and then suddenly regress. If anything the gap between the two should be growing narrower since Kintarou is supposed to have faster growth rate and have higher talent ceiling.

Also, it needs to be said it's a 1-off line from before Kin improved as he played Dorgias, before Ryoma returned (he didn't even want him back, at the point), before Atobe showed Ice Emperor, before Fuji unlocked Light Wind against Australia (which is effectively as strong as ZST) and before Akutsu unlocked 8C. In the meantime Yukimura got nothing except making his ship with Sanada stronger.

One-off line? Konomi has been consistent about it. Yukimura destroyed Sanada (a top player who beat a fully healed Tezuka), was the sole MSer chosen against G20, and point blank called #1 (excluding Ryoma) by Konomi before Greece. That's before all his upgrades against Tezuka. I think you're forgetting that Yukimura is also an MS main character who outclassed everyone (except TnK Ryoma) in the original series, got buffed along with the rest of the MSers in NPoT, even described "Another Prince of Tennis" by Konomi which actually is pretty damn high praise and also tells you where he stands in Konomi's eyes.

Actually I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore lmao.

 

[-Ken-]

He's behind TnK Ryoma and debatably, pre-TnK Tezuka. Kintarou managed a draw under circumstances we know nothing about, but Yukimura was still better. I say this because we know that Yukimura's considered better than Kintarou during the camp and it makes no narrative sense for Kintarou to surpass Yukimura and then suddenly regress. If anything the gap between the two should be growing narrower since Kintarou is supposed to have faster growth rate and have higher talent ceiling.

Kintarou ALREADY draw with Yukimura at the beginning of the camp after losing like 100 times or something. If Yukimura manage to surpass Kintarou since then, then your statement regarding Kintarou growth rate and talent ceiling is simply wrong. It's possible. I don't think Kintarou talent ceiling is ever made clear. He does have insane growth rate for someone who start tennis really late and is still very young though.

One-off line? Konomi has been consistent about it. Yukimura destroyed Sanada (a top player who beat a fully healed Tezuka), was the sole MSer chosen against G20, and point blank called #1 (excluding Ryoma) by Konomi before Greece. That's before all his upgrades against Tezuka. I think you're forgetting that Yukimura is also an MS main character who outclassed everyone (except TnK Ryoma) in the original series, got buffed along with the rest of the MSers in NPoT, even described "Another Prince of Tennis" by Konomi which actually is pretty damn high praise and also tells you where he stands in Konomi's eyes.



Actually I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore lmao.

Same with Hardy, I also never Yukura being the best MS ever stated anywhere. Can I have the page chapter number where that is stated? You state that Yukimura is #1 MS for multiple posts now.

Yukimura being the single MS chosen to play doesn't really mean anything at all. It just means JP coach are shit at deciding representative. The fact that the losers team manage to beat the 1st stringer is enough to show this. And many winners are probably capable of doing the same. I would even argue that maybe even WoK who was 3rd court level prior to that point might be able to be 1st stringer HS level now.

Yukimura actually have multiple preparations against Tezuka like for example his data which is extremely significant. How significant? It's enough for Inui to beat Mitsuya who got wayyyyyyyyyy higher base stats. That data alone give Inui at least ability to play and win against someone with 7 higher total stats who also use data tennis but have less data on Inui at the start of the match. But that's not all Yukimura got. He also come up with multiple move JUST AGAINST Tezuka.

 

[chikkychappy]

Kintarou ALREADY draw with Yukimura at the beginning of the camp after losing like 100 times or something. If Yukimura manage to surpass Kintarou since then, then your statement regarding Kintarou growth rate and talent ceiling is simply wrong. It's possible. I don't think Kintarou talent ceiling is ever made clear. He does have insane growth rate for someone who start tennis really late and is still very young though.

It's clear that he has high talent ceiling along with Akutsu. He should only get better and close the gap against others. That's why I don't think he entered the camp better than Yukimura and then suddenly became worse at the middle of it.

Same with Hardy, I also never Yukura being the best MS ever stated anywhere. Can I have the page chapter number where that is stated? You state that Yukimura is #1 MS for multiple posts now.

I already linked to it above: https://mangadex.org/chapter/f87de9a6-f5a3-4342-95a3-5a01a9a2c4f8/8

Let's remove Ryoma from the discussion.

So G20 = Yukimura only MSer chosen
Before Greece = "He is the no.1 among middle schoolers"

I really don't know what else you all need, Konomi can't get any more explicit than this.

Yukimura being the single MS chosen to play doesn't really mean anything at all. It just means JP coach are shit at deciding representative. The fact that the losers team manage to beat the 1st stringer is enough to show this. And many winners are probably capable of doing the same. I would even argue that maybe even WoK who was 3rd court level prior to that point might be able to be 1st stringer HS level now.

Yukimura actually have multiple preparations against Tezuka like for example his data which is extremely significant. How significant? It's enough for Inui to beat Mitsuya who got wayyyyyyyyyy higher base stats. That data alone give Inui at least ability to play and win against someone with 7 higher total stats who also use data tennis but have less data on Inui at the start of the match. But that's not all Yukimura got. He also come up with multiple move JUST AGAINST Tezuka.

Yukimura is considered #1 regardless of his prep against Tezuka. It just shows you how broken Tezuka is that even the "#1 MSer" need those prep and still fall short.

 

[-Ken-]

Well, since you like to diss manga evidence and points, I'll point out too that while Yukimura is called #1 amongst MS... Echizen and Tezuka exist. The text do say middle schoolers period. So it would be including all middle schoolers in actuality. And with how much you like to ignore some actual points and scores that was actually in the manga I wonder why you cling so much to this one-liner here. We even knows that Kintarou manage to draw with Yukimura prior to the camp.

It's also possible that prior to his match with Dorgias Kintarou wasn't able to use TnK at will. I know for the fact that this forum say Kintarou cannot use it at will before that match lol.

 

[LetalHawk]

Well, since you like to diss manga evidence and points, I'll point out too that while Yukimura is called #1 amongst MS... Echizen and Tezuka exist. The text do say middle schoolers period. So it would be including all middle schoolers in actuality. And with how much you like to ignore some actual points and scores that was actually in the manga I wonder why you cling so much to this one-liner here. We even knows that Kintarou manage to draw with Yukimura prior to the camp.

It's also possible that prior to his match with Dorgias Kintarou wasn't able to use TnK at will. I know for the fact that this forum say Kintarou cannot use it at will before that match lol.

Well Ken he could use it willingly after his match with Oni, everybody who unlocked it can use it willingly. We thought that Ryoma couldn’t or that it was exclusive from his nationals finals match because we never saw it again until Tezuka used it, and then Konomi showed that once you get it you can use it anytime.

 

[Tavore]

Nope Romeo, Ryoga and Tezuka were stronger than him.

 

[Hardy]

First do we even know where that flashback image is from? It looks to me like a generic shot of Oni and Kintarou at the beginning of the match. If so then it basically says that Kintarou saw Oni at full strength sometime during that. Against QP Kintarou said "You haven't seen Uncle Oni's strength yet" and right on cue, Oni summoned TnK. After that Kintarou never talked about Oni not being full strength again. Isn't it clear what Kintarou meant?

I'll just say that if I'm going to follow your logic to its end I am forced to conclude Non-Aura QP = Dorgias which is certainly... a take.

Flashback is seemingly of Oni training with Kintarou in either Australia or USA. Why wouldn't Konomi portray him as having TnK if Kintarou was only talking about that? To me it means that he was playing using just his base tennis, not having either aura active. And yes, he promptly activates TnK after that.

Not sure that's my take, now. Playing around with numbers in my other post I'm growing more convinced that Oni was at 60% against Kin, since Oni's total at 60% should be pretty close to Kintarou's (just like Byoudouin's against Tokugawa). Maybe all his stats except Power were at 60% or sth like that.

Niou got the #10 badge. During those times he was "dead on the floor" he was actually observing Atobe so that he can copy him and synchro with him. He was as instrumental as Atobe was in winning that match.



Idk but Konomi has to choose someone right? I mean it's between Yukimura, Shiraishi and him. He is confident, leads the biggest MS team in the series, has his "insight" and was also by far the most popular character (9,000 chocolates baby). Have we ever even heard someone refer to Atobe as "#1 of JP MS team"?

Niou never got the badge, he didn't join the first string along with Atobe, he was taken straight into the infirmary. Atobe even grabbed both badges, turned around and saw Niou being escorted away.

He has to. Doesn't have to be the Number 1.

Have we ever heard someone refer to Atobe as "Captain" after that?

Regardless, wasn't arguing that Atobe was stronger back then.

He's behind TnK Ryoma and debatably, pre-TnK Tezuka. Kintarou managed a draw under circumstances we know nothing about, but Yukimura was still better. I say this because we know that Yukimura's considered better than Kintarou during the camp and it makes no narrative sense for Kintarou to surpass Yukimura and then suddenly regress. If anything the gap between the two should be growing narrower since Kintarou is supposed to have faster growth rate and have higher talent ceiling.



One-off line? Konomi has been consistent about it. Yukimura destroyed Sanada (a top player who beat a fully healed Tezuka), was the sole MSer chosen against G20, and point blank called #1 (excluding Ryoma) by Konomi before Greece. That's before all his upgrades against Tezuka. I think you're forgetting that Yukimura is also an MS main character who outclassed everyone (except TnK Ryoma) in the original series, got buffed along with the rest of the MSers in NPoT, even described "Another Prince of Tennis" by Konomi which actually is pretty damn high praise and also tells you where he stands in Konomi's eyes.

Actually I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore lmao.

It doesn't make sense for stubborn-ass Kin as a character to be satisfied with being worse than Yukimura, either.

I'll admit I don't have any argument for Yukimura being selected over everyone else vs the 1st String, other than the fact that being on the Black Jersey Brigade may have affected the Super Rookies' score, but it's rather baseless. There's the chance Yukimura unlocked Dream Yips in these 50 matches, which is how he pulled ahead of everyone else (Kintarou and Akutsu, for example, didn't really show any new Specials when they had their time to play).

Edit: I had this in an earlier draft but for whatever reason I didn't add it to this post: related to Konomi's choices of words, Pair Puri 5 that covers Ryoma and Yukimura is called "TOP".

On the one-off line again, there's also the chance the coaches weren't 100% convinced Kintarou could replicate TnK. Reasonably speaking, how could he be better than Kin back then if the latter has this massive buff and can delete his bread and butter?

We are discussing if Yukimura was the best MSer right before he played Tezuka. I personally have Ryoma, Fuji, and Kintarou (from strongest to weakest) over him before that match, and Akutsu could had easily been back had the plot allowed him to. The way I see it, Fuji and Akutsu probably only lose if they take too long to 6-0 6-0 him.

Well Ken he could use it willingly after his match with Oni, everybody who unlocked it can use it willingly. We thought that Ryoma couldn’t or that it was exclusive from his nationals finals match because we never saw it again until Tezuka used it, and then Konomi showed that once you get it you can use it anytime.

Oni himself didn't start his match against QP using TnK. Siegfried lost the ability to do so at the end of his own match, too. Ryoma may not had been able to use it against Ludovic.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2023 ---

Nope Romeo, Ryoga and Tezuka were stronger than him.

Changed the title to make it clearer.

 

[-Ken-]

Oni himself didn't start his match against QP using TnK. Siegfried lost the ability to do so at the end of his own match, too. Ryoma may not had been able to use it against Ludovic.

On this, I think there's a chance the coach might think Yukimura+his upgrade and counter stands a better chance than Kintarou.

It's to be noted that
-Tokugawa lefties training can be cool and help against Echizen and other lefties too.
-Tezuka data is useless for anyone else other than Tezuka
-Atobe advice against Tezuka... is again useless against anyone other than Tezuka
-Sanada advice is helpful, but I don't recall if Tezuka really can't be Yips or not lol. It's again useless for other people that's not Tezuka though.
-Mirage Mirror is Tezuka Zone specific counter. But I suppose being ambidextrous actually can be helpful sometimes like the France shown in their doubles match. It's a part of what lead to their victory actually.
-Steal the future upgrade is Yukimura best upgrade. That said, I'm not sure if the coach are aware of this upgrade prior to the match.

To look at what Yukimura got... I think it can be summarized like this.

Tezuka Specific Counter
-Tezuka Data
-MS Advice

Lefties counter that can be useful in general
-Tokugawa training

Ambidextrous upgrade
-Mirage Mirror

Useful upgrade that the coach may or may not be aware
-Steal the Future

Kintarou cannot use Tezuka data at all. He might not be able to put the MS advice to use. His power is instinct. If he can intuitively counter a move, then he can. But I doubt he can come up with a counter move like Yukimura or Fuji can. Of course, you'll need time to come up with the counter, but still. My point is that those two Tezuka specific counter cannot be used by Kintarou. And we've seen how INSANE a buff the data can be. The highest stats buff we seen data beaten is I think 7? The data is probably the main reason why coach pick Yukimura over anyone else.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Do we even believe in selection of Japan Coaches?

Mifune just roll dice to select reps every round in group stage. Lmao.
They even selected Kimi and Shiraishi just because they are handsome to counter France handsome pair. Lmao.

Kidding aside

In the Germany Match, Japan Coaches were serious.

They really put 4 of the Genius 5. (Byo, Tane, Duke, and Oni)

They put the best Doubles Player Mser in the Tourney in Niou cause of Illusions.

And then chose Yukimura to face Tezuka. Cause he trained specifically to fight Tezuka.

The only questionable picked there was Akaya. But it worked out.

 

[chikkychappy]

Flashback is seemingly of Oni training with Kintarou in either Australia or USA. Why wouldn't Konomi portray him as having TnK if Kintarou was only talking about that?

Because of suspense? If the flashback shows him at TnK then it takes away from the moment he actually turns on TnK. The way the manga did it is more impactful, it's a common storytelling tactic. Honestly I think some people forget that PoT is first and foremost a story with the way the even the most obscure manga details are overanalyzed but overarching themes ignored.

To me it means that he was playing using just his base tennis, not having either aura active. And yes, he promptly activates TnK after that.

Not sure that's my take, now. Playing around with numbers in my other post I'm growing more convinced that Oni was at 60% against Kin, since Oni's total at 60% should be pretty close to Kintarou's (just like Byoudouin's against Tokugawa). Maybe all his stats except Power were at 60% or sth like that.

Why is the thought of QP not completely folding against Oni so... unbelievable to some? Even Volk acknowledged Oni's power and that's why QP pulled out his "ultimate physique" as counter. If we expect perfect QP with his "ultimate physique" to fold then what do we expect underdeveloped Kintarou to have experienced? Completely busted arms?

Niou never got the badge, he didn't join the first string along with Atobe, he was taken straight into the infirmary. Atobe even grabbed both badges, turned around and saw Niou being escorted away.

He has to. Doesn't have to be the Number 1.

Niou won the badge, at that moment he was considered #10 in G10. Atobe took it on his behalf because Niou was too dead on the floor. Why else would both Mouri and Ochi both give it up if only one of them deserve it? I mean... that idea doesn't even make sense and just goes against the spirit of 99% of doubles matches in the series. It was Niou who scored the deciding point and the very last thing he said was "This is doubles after all." He was as deserving as Atobe of that badge, the only reason Atobe took #9 is because being a diva is kind of his thing. You said that Fuji might have had more off-screen achievements, but the matches against G10 should carry the most weight. Nobody cares about some fodder in Court 1 or even G11-20, a win against G10 is auto-overwrite.

It doesn't make sense for stubborn-ass Kin as a character to be satisfied with being worse than Yukimura, either.

This stubborn Kin hasn't had his dream rematch with Ryoma either and was even said to be no match for him at the moment, it doesn't mean much.

Edit: I had this in an earlier draft but for whatever reason I didn't add it to this post: related to Konomi's choices of words, Pair Puri 5 that covers Ryoma and Yukimura is called "TOP".

Well thank you I wasn't aware of this, I guess this just proves my point.

Edit: This was released around 2010 it appears, and the "interview" happened sometime November in the story, early U-17 camp. At this point it's a no-brainer that Ryoma and Yukimura are considered the top players in the MS scene (even above Tezuka). I previously would've put Yuki and Tezuka around the same level cos I thought Tezuka would've caught on after being injured for a long time, but I'm starting to rethink that.

I'll admit I don't have any argument for Yukimura being selected over everyone else vs the 1st String, other than the fact that being on the Black Jersey Brigade may have affected the Super Rookies' score, but it's rather baseless. There's the chance Yukimura unlocked Dream Yips in these 50 matches, which is how he pulled ahead of everyone else (Kintarou and Akutsu, for example, didn't really show any new Specials when they had their time to play).

On the one-off line again, there's also the chance the coaches weren't 100% convinced Kintarou could replicate TnK. Reasonably speaking, how could he be better than Kin back then if the latter has this massive buff and can delete his bread and butter?

Or maybe rather than banging our heads and overanalyzing, you need to look at it from a simple storytelling perspective and understand that there were two things Konomi wanted you to remember about Yukimura at that time: a) that he is called the "Child of God"; b) that he is the #1 JP MSer.

Basically for Konomi, Yukimura being a "Child of God" and "#1 JP MSer" are his distinguishing features, in the same way that Sanada is "Emperor", Fuji is a "genius" and Marui is a "genius volleyer", Kite is a "hitman", Niou is a "trickster", Atobe is "King" etc.

We are discussing if Yukimura was the best MSer right before he played Tezuka. I personally have Ryoma, Fuji, and Kintarou (from strongest to weakest) over him before that match, and Akutsu could had easily been back had the plot allowed him to. The way I see it, Fuji and Akutsu probably only lose if they take too long to 6-0 6-0 him.

Because Akutsu, Kintarou and Fuji (wait why is Fuji even part of the discussion??????) have had their moment to shine whereas Konomi was saving everything Yukimura has against his match with Tezuka. I don't look at tiering this sequentially and literally because onscreen feats are very very VERY dependent on the very little action the limited plot allows, who needed to be thrown a win or upgrade at the moment, etc etc. Also when Konomi writes his story he doesn't look at it from match to match, he takes a more big picture view. He looks at his overall tiering, decides who gets buffed and by how much and in which part of the story, how the power balance would look after all these changes, etc. So the better question is, when all is said and done, who do you think Konomi considers #1 JP MSer?