@OtakuFreak Too much little points to answer one by one, so I'm going to summarize my answers to make the discussion seem less complex:
Okay, cutie
- Yes, Mael being mindless is a huge nerf, we both agree on that. Overall, he's clearly weaker than Ludo or Eli, I'm not going to deny that also, but his raw power and raw power alone should be still comparable to Eli or Ludo.
I don't think its comparable at all, perhaps 4C-Mael could give Elizabeth or Ludoshel a small challenge, but just like King handled it, he would be defeated pretty quickly.
Not only does he possess a similar PL than Ludo, but he has 6 wings (a representation of a Goddess power). Now, onto your questions, Mael's PL was stated to be over 200K, not 200K. From my understanding, 4C Mael could be anywhere near between 200.000 and 299.999 (300.000 is a big no since Hawk would have said that he had a PL of 300K or over, the text clearly implies that he's above the 200K mark but below 300K).
I doubt Mael with four commandments was at the upper ends of 200,000+ PL. If I had to guess, he was probably around 250,000 PL or under. Hawk being vague suggests, to me at least, that he was closer to 200k than he was 300k.
Maybe you need to be past a certain point (for example 250K+ to have six wings?, idk on that, it's speculative). Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the raw power of a 4C Mael (I repeat, raw power alone) should be comparable to that of Ludo or Eli for the reasons I've given and even that power was pretty much a joke to King. Even if we say that Eli or Ludo's raw power are stronger than 4C Mael, it shouldn't be that much of a difference at all. You're probably going to ask why I think his 6 wings wasn't a drawing mistake. Very simple, because Nakaba redrew that page and admitted that him having four wings was the drawing error, not the other way around. You can check that here on this blog:
Thanks for providing me with the blog, I'll take your word on it. Although, Mael having 6 wings whilst Elizabeth and Ludoshel have only 4 is inconsistent to the story. As you say, if they're supposedly comparable why don't Eliz/Ludo have 6 wings? You wouldn't say a divine lance corporal, whom have 2 wings, would be comparable to one of the AA with 4 wings, would you? Comparability suggests a level of close equality, so if this is the case, Elizabeth and Ludoshel should have 6 wings, but they do not because Nakaba makes errors regarding power consistency.
Additionally, Elizabeth and Ludoshel's feats easily put them in the upper ends of 200,000 or beyond. Cusack and Chandler had an individual PL of 168,000 & 173,000. Even though the Sinner's performance was lacklustre in some regards, the combination of the masters should give the original demon a total power level of 341,000. As we saw, Ludoshel put up a pretty good fight, and in my opinion if he had not be burden to protect Merlin (I.E sit in one spot, never move or use his grace, which is favourable for mobility) then he would've defeated the original demon. Even if you disagree that the Sinner's PL shouldn't be 341,000, he is certainly far above 4C-Mael (despite his shit performance). His presence alone was enough to break the power of five commandments, whereas Mael only had four. Sinner in combat would pretty much rekt him.
Elizabeth & Ludoshel should have 6 wings then given how the original demon is far above 4C-Mael, and Ludoshel was fighting pretty evenly given his conditions. Also, Mael with the sun grace should undeniably have 6 wings near noon/at noon.
- You're overestimating Eli and underestimating Ludo. He wasn't going all out against the Induras like Eli did. Proof of that is the fact that he barely used his Grace at all and was about to do something against them before Eli intervened.
Realistically, what would've Ludoshel done, even with his grace at its fullest potential? We saw that his magic was incapable of hurting Indura and he was being physically overwhelmed by a Phase 1 Derieri. Sure, he would've put up a better fight, but at the most, he would've defeated Derieri at high/max difficulty. This isn't including Monspiet, whom with Derieri, would easily kill Ludoshel.
Ludoshel's statement suggested that because Monspiet & Derieri basically committed suicide in order to kill him, then he was going to do the same. What I got from it, was that he was going to use a forbidden technique of the Goddesses, perhaps the Indura version of what they have? If that's the case, then that's an entirely different argument.
Either way, we have that both Eli and Ludo should be comparable to each other going by statements. Eli may have better magic, but Ludo has better strength, speed and durability going by feats thus far, so they should be pretty much equal when you take everything into consideration, IMO. Mael is one step above them, considering all the hype he got from being the hope of his clan.
Statements are fantastic and all, but feats as I'm sure you would agree, speak much louder than mere words and give us superior clarity to the power difference between Elizabeth and the Four Archangels. Sure, most statements basically say that Mael/Ludoshel/Elizabeth should be equal to each other, yet Elizabeth has much better feats and of course, heritage.
I can't even believe that you would say that she's even stronger than Mael.
Mael who was holding back considerably against Zeldris? Yes, she is stronger than that.
Mael at the exact same time, or at noon with no will to hold back? Of course not.
She has more potential for sure, but right now she hasn't shown anything that can make you say that. Be it strength, speed or durability, Mael is above her right now. Magic wise it's debatable but even in this area their feats are pretty damn comparable IMO.
Perhaps the sun grace near noon in combination with Mael's own individual magic would surpass Elizabeth, I'll give you that. But as an individual, outside noon, Elizabeth's magic is superior to the Four Archangels, pretty much all of them say it at one point or another.
- Ludo's body was decaying sure, but nothing says that he was weaker than normal. The whole point of the "astral body" thing is that you have a time limit on which you can stay in your original body, but there's nothing that says that your power during that time is going to be weaker. Plus, Ludo at that point fighting the Sinner barely had been anytime on the outside, so the power difference (even if we assume that there's any and the difference keeps getting bigger the more time you're in astral form) between his optimal self and his astral self should have been minimal. If he could have oneshotted the Sinner the way Mael did, he would have done it before instead of just fucking around putting everyone in danger. Mael looks better by feats. @Aceinthehole also made a pretty good point in regards to that.
Problem is Ludoshel's astral form was losing integrity which should mean he would lose power as well.
@Aceinthehole with King, his body was completely intact, only his magic reserves were running dry, so his power was still at full power.
- The AA being scared of the DK isn't a mindset. Mael clearly tried to attack him along with the help of a nerfed King and Diane and got his ass handed to him casually. AA are simply no match for the DK. You could argue that Mael at Noon is with pure hype, but Mael at Noon is far above Ludo or Eli, considering how Ludo said that he is unable to keep up at all with him at Noon and Eli isn't better than Ludo for the reasons I've explained earlier.
I'm not disagreeing that Elizabeth couldn't keep up with Mael near/at noon if he was serious.
- I find it interesting to say the least that you say that King is nowhere near Ban level, when not even two months ago you were putting him not one, but three spots above Ban. I don't know what made you change your opinion so much, but I guess it's not that important.
Am I not allowed to change my opinion as time goes on? :O
Back to topic, King is all magic, so obviously him almost having none is going to affect his battle prowess and his power output. The fact that Nakaba went out of his way multiple times in the Camelot fight to say this is because it's clearly an important factor. When you compare Ban's feats with Full Power King's feats you'll come to realise that they're very comparable to each other:
Well yeah, but Nakaba only said that his reserves were about to run dry, not at his actual power had began to weaken. As I said before, his magic was almost fully used, yet he blocked an attack from the Demon King.
1. Both could have beaten that Indura of Favor with little to no difficulty as showed when both were capable of rendering all of that beast's attacks useless. Ban was bullying that thing and King could have nuked it. You even agreed with that in your post.
That Indura never really showed us its true power since it was being ganged up on, hard to say how specifically King would perform. Against Derieri or Monspiet, I think he'd have a rough time.
2. Both held their own against Prime DK Zel. Both clashed with him, both hurted him, both kept up with him and could tank some of his attacks, sustaining the same amount of injuries. Their performances in battle were equal. If King, according to you, is nowhere near Ban, then why their performances looked that comparable? By the way, it should be noted that when they were fighting against the DK, they were clearly nerfed because of the Ruler: on the one hand, Ban couldn't use his Snatch abilties to steal the DK's power and King couldn't use a good deal of Chastiefol's forms and his innate magic Disaster that makes the slightest injury into a considerable one.
The entire problem with this ''feat'' is that it was a group battle. For all we know King could've been carried given how individually against the Demon King (Meliodas), he was helpless.
All this fight tells me is that King, Escanor & Ban with the support of Elizabeth & Merlin can somewhat match the power of the Demon King. Individually? Doesn't help us pinpoint King's power.
Sure, Ban & King didn't use all of their powers but neither did the Demon King. Nakaba just had him swing his sword around like an idiot instead of using all of the powerful, nearly ''hax'' like demonic techniques that we've seen from other top-tier demons. It goes both ways.
DK Mel is not that much above them like you're trying to make it look like. In fact, I may even argue that King, Ban and DK Mel are pretty much all equal to each other. Ban could fight evenly with him even before getting nerfed by Mel on the inside and that was a Ban that: had no ST and couldn't use his Snatch stealing abilities+Zero Sign and other shit because of the Ruler. Yet, in those circumstances he still managed to put up a very good fight, unlike Mael at Post-Noon who was completely hopeless against him, proven by how he was unable to do anything against him even with the help of a Nerfed King and Diane. And before you say that I believe that the DK, King and Ban are equal, no, they aren't equal, they are very, very comparable to a considerably weaker version of him (DK Mel) and that's it. Obviously, the DK is way stronger than them with all his power back.
How is King even remotely close to the power of the Demon King? Nowhere has it been hinted that his power affects the realm, like the Gods, or that he has to return to his realm in order to avoid destroying Brittania. In fact, if Ban & King are pretty much Deity tier, then why didn't they obliterate the Demon King?
You say that Eli has the better feats because she could hold her own against two Induras of Favor that had barely grown at all. You say that this feat triumphs King's because King just happened to be with the other Sins at the time they were facing a fully grown one (implying that he would have had trouble on his own), but then you agree with one of my posts that says that King and Ban on their own would absolutely destroy that beast. Looking it from your perspective, Eli's feats don't look like they triumph King's at all. Eli holds her own against two Induras, King can absolutely destroy one.
Yes, King could defeat an Indura, but he could not hold his own against 2, whereas Elizabeth can. That's my point essentially with the whole Indura thing, King showed us that he can defeat an Indura, but nowhere that he can best/handle 2.
Further more, Elizabeth's magic release alone was enough to push everyone back, illuminate the battlefield and make the Indura shocked. Ludoshel's magic never did anything like that, instead Derieri took it on the cheek like a gentle slap. Where has King's magic ever shown such power?
