Who is a better written character guts or griffith | MangaHelpers



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Who is a better written character guts or griffith

Who is better written?

  • Guts

  • Griffith


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nuur mohamed

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I know both are absolutely amazing characters and have huge depth to them.

But just to start a discussion who in your opinion is a better written character or slightly better written character in your opinion. Is it guts the most human character in this manga or griffith the man himself who is probably the most dedicated person in this manga who will do anything for his dream.


And please don't judge or change your opinion due to your disdain for a character aka Griffith and what he did during the Eclipse say whatever you like if you think he is better then feel free to reply same goes for guts.
 

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Better written? I don't know, but I prefer Guts.

Both are well written IMO. I think it's harder to do that for a character like Griffith though.
 

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Better written? I don't know, but I prefer Guts.

Both are well written IMO. I think it's harder to do that for a character like Griffith though.
Same we've seen his writing through art, symbolism and thoughts and feelings.


Griffith even though we know how he thinks it's truly hard what he to know what he thinks of guts currently as femto and if he truly still cares for him. Even though there are some hints to show he still feels something for his comrade it hasn't been fully confirmed by him.


But yeah I agree I do prefer guts more.
 

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Griffith by a country mile and beyond. It's not even a contest. Guts is pretty mediocre.
 

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Griffith by a country mile and beyond. It's not even a contest. Guts is pretty mediocre.
What makes guts mediocre I'm not disagreeing or agreeing just want to see why you think that.
 

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What makes guts mediocre I'm not disagreeing or agreeing just want to see why you think that.
It's because he lacks depth. His character is very simplistic and straight forward. He doesn't shoulder any plot-changing or meaningful metaphors within the plot itself. That would be Griffith. You take Griffith out of the plot and there is no plot. That is how weak a character Guts is as the entire slew of causalities are created, crafted and set to revolve around Griffith and Griffith only. It's also interesting that Griffith now influences the causalities within the manga as well as this is what GodHands do. An almost fourth wall kind of affair.

Another factor that is really offputting is the consistent rise in Deus Ex Machina for this character. It has left Naruto as a character in the dust in this regard. I am not even trying to be funny here. The very first is the Behelit itself. Guts doesn't seem to have lost it (no matter how comical the situation) and the author has offered no reasoning as to why a key that is already used once can be used again in any manner. It makes little sense given the powers it provides. Skull-King seems to have a trove of it and it makes the whole thing even more laughable. Femto doesn't seem to be too concerned with SK's comical collection so far as well (the point till where I have read anyway; albeit, I am aware of Falconia's plotline and that makes it even more absurd).

Then we have the troll arc. The armor just appeared out of nowhere in just the nick of time to aid Guts. But wait, it was wielded by SK as well. It allows him to harness an awesome power and fight an apostle whose physical strength was far more enhanced than ordinary ones. The reasoning for the armor is so flimsy that I cannot stress it enough as to how much the writing faltered there; it was badly crafted comedy on pages. The armor even fixes his bones during the fight. His strength got so magically enhanced that the apostle was forced to assume his true form and still he was struggling. He, apparently, has an inner demon as well. And the icing on the cake is that he has to lie outside the tale (when he already does lie in the shallow stratum) to beat Griffith. I do not think this can get any worse than this. Slan has magically shown an interest in him as well. Why? Because she wants him to plunge his "big, thick sword into her." Or so we are told, because it's so "es-pha-shal!"

Schierke is this ... bottomless bag of solutions. She has the answer to everything. She also has this puberty lust thing going on for Guts and it's just plain disturbing. Honestly, everything about this one-dimensional character is off-putting. Whenever a problem appears, she defeats it nearly always. She's his go-to armor; an impenetrable one. Griffith just doesn't magically decide to go to her mistress himself to kill her when he can control Time and Space. He just leaves everything to his weaker subordinates, when they were hardly the strongest apostles at that time. No valid reasons are given for this stupidity, when the man is a god.

Their child he chose to merge with just maintained his consciousness. Why? No reason, but just another causality defying nonsensical Deux Ex Machina for Guts to exploit later on, as a god was not able to extinguish a consciousness of a mere child that only got corrupted with a bit of his sperm ... or err something. I am sure I will find others if I think hard enough, but this is terrible enough. It exhibits how flimsy and utterly horrendous a character Guts is.

Every single encounter feels the same; he takes his giant sword out and starts swinging and blood is splattered everywhere. Full stop. You have an idiotic, caricatural motley bunch that stand in a state of stupor (mostly) as he does so and offer "ooohhs and ahhhhs" every single time. And Schierke chants mumbo-jumbo and they are saved, because she is just this impossible juggernaut of magic. There is no stopping the Schierke train. It's like a constant loop of the same kind of nonsensical garbage over and over and over again ... and I have grown weary of it. Guts' inner demon struggles feel like something straight out of the poorly written lyrics of a Tumblr girl with much less talent. It's a comedic affair ... as it is outwardly personified in the worst kind of ways; I mean, a hell hound? Really?

The facial expressions, poses and grunts that accompany it make it seem like he's endeavouring his very best to pass a long overdue stool hibernating in his posterior for a month; it feels like a mundane routine affair. And it's almost the same damn face! The same damned struggles and the same damned tedious show of Bruce-McGruff hyper-masculine rubbish. People actually like this? I am baffled!

The bunch that aids him aren't any less ridiculous. Good Lord, was Miura ever serious with Farneze? She's the pinnacle of human stupidity and bad penning in every single manner, and she will also become a magic user; another powerful addition in Guts' OP belt ...

Griffith, on the other hand, can be summed up in this manner (I will just copy-paste my post from another thread):

This was a far more interesting, compelling and a better write up than written by the OP, which leaves much to be desired. This point isn't a reply to yours. Just my personal thoughts: Griffith is a character that is defined by his ambition. He is an inveterate dreamer and his vehement desire was always to aim towards the lofty apex of the castle spires. This was shown through his pure pursuit of ideals to grasp his dream. And let's be honest with ourselves, a man is nothing without his dreams. We need dreams, ideals and pursuits to complete our existence. Give it purpose. To assume that dreams aren't selfish is a self-serving mentality. It isn't real. When one person acquires a dream somewhere, he has crushed the dream of many to acquire the same thing. That is how it is; one dream is achieved by ending many. That is the truth of the matter.

We have seen him so emotionally invested in his ideals that he intentionally distanced himself from his comrades after witnessing the untimely demise of a child amongst his troops; a mere boy. It was more of a moment of self-pity he projected onto the child when he stated that, "he must have had a dream as well." He realized it then that that could be him in his place; death ending his dream; ending everything for him. Which is why he chooses to solicit and gains the funds to climb out of that rut of consistent losses of men; setbacks thwarting his dream. It was a decision to gain heights and spread his wings wide; the same reference when he fell so far down after his night with the naive princess.

Griffith was the man who was meant to achieve his dream by standing over the bodies of his comrades. It was always meant to be this way, as each victory was forged in the blood of his fallen comrades. He gained rank through deaths. He was a leader. He was always meant to lead, not chase. Which is why we find the Band of the Hawk willingly claiming to sacrifice theirs so that Griffith can literally soar high like the hawk he was always meant to be. Once that dream, that ego, that passion, that control melded together firmly over the years, it made Griffith the man he was; an admirer of dreams; a pursuer of his dream of a castle. It defined him till the moment he was not reunited with the Behelit. He was always extraordinary like the unique Behelit he was meant to find. An overman amongst men. His transcendence to Femto was so fitting to fully realize these facets of him. His humanity held him back.

He considered Guts a friend. However, the intentional distancing and the ideals molded him into a man who considered people around him more of helping hands, pieces on the chessboard with him being the finest one; a king. Once he is humiliated by Guts, it dawns on him that he cannot control the tides of fates as perfectly as he had hoped. That loss of control and the idea that he will not be able to maintain hold over all his troops, sends him cruelly spiraling down, where he makes one terrible mistake after another. The quick decision to remedy his bruised ego through a hasty sexual encounter costs him so much more than he bargained for.

It would be difficult to plumb the depths of his despair when he was completely deconstructed as a man after the inhuman torture. To state that he was left as a shell of his former self is putting it so lightly. The man was emasculated, humiliated and dethroned out of the safe haven of his dream castle. He was no longer the beautiful, clever-minded general all admired ... but a man to be pitied. I don't think there could have been any greater cruelty. Once given a choice to end his life or a life of a pitiful invalid ... or grasp the chance to become a god, he chose what everyone would; a chance to live the dream. I will never belittle Griffith to choose what he did; it came so naturally to him. It was a human moment to end his life and accept the God's Hands proposal to transcend reality. Even if you remove the factors leading him up to that moment, it would be impossible to deny such an opportunity; a chance to become a god! Be the king of causality and fates. It's an impossible dream, an awesome power! The temptation to acquire it will triumph over everything.

The points that I tend to deviate from are those where people assume Femto to be evil. Are GodHands really evil? There is no such thing as an absolute evil. Evil is fueled by perspective. Griffith has transcended perspectives. He is no longer a human. He is no longer bound by the factors of "manufactured" morality. Yes, morality is always manufactured. It is not something absolute; it's always destined to reach an obsolete status one way or another, given its changing nature with the shifting winds of societal axioms. Can we really call God in the three well-known orthodox religions as evil when he decimated civilizations, and still does if one counts the idea of "fate" in religion?

I will consider Femto as no different. He leaves mountains of corpses and decides fates. To him that Utopia is well-earned on the pile of corpses. Just as Heaven is a well-earned paradise over the dreary pits of hell that is a brimful of the absolutes of human despairs. The promised lands are always built on corpses and crushing dreams, which makes Griffith so raw and realistic even as a lesser god. As Femto, Griffith transcended humanity, he transcended evil, he transcended good ... he became an axiom of hope and despair himself; a true god! He became the very ideal he chased after. Femto is nothing more than a personification of his own ideologies, only far more exalted, more detached and more removed from reality. He's unreal and real at the same time.

I would consider Femto as a complete reconstruction of Griffith. Not just physically (interestingly, he has gone through two rebirths since his death as Griffith; Femto and the White Hawk God who created Falconia), but spiritually and thematically as well. At his core, Femto is an incorporeal being. He sees things in the shades of fates and causality. He isn't a part of them like humanity or as Griffith was. He's beyond that. To judge him on the merits of humanity makes little sense as he doesn't even lie on the shallow stratum of reality, but the deep stratum. His rebirth simply gives him a make-believe flesh to reside amongst humans and make his dream a reality within the bounds of the laws of the corporeal stratum. That doesn't make him any less of a god. He's simply a god with a fleshy garb. Thus, every single act from Griffith is justifiable one way or another, and that is what makes him highly complex.

I disagree with the rape argument people have as well. Why would Femto desire to spite Guts and Caska? I found that scene to be utterly pointless and a stuff of base titillation. If I was supposed to loathe Griffith in any manner, then I can assure people that it never crossed my mind. As to associate notions of morality with gods and hell is such an insufferably absurd and terribly narrow-minded view to begin with that throws any semblance of context away altogether.

The scene and the sheer stupidity of Casca surviving purely on grounds of the perversions of demons were absolutely laughable ... and she has been baselessly comical since then. She was never a decent character to begin with. It was not until his rebirth and the facts surrounding it resurfaced that I finally understood that he only wanted to corrupt the child to use it as a vessel, albeit it is another grand Deux Ex Machina in Guts' favour; one of the many this character so shamelessly keels over on. There is nothing more to it than that. To give it more meaning would mean that the GodHands have corporeal inclinations; traits of the flesh, and that would go everything against what we have seen.

I have also never understood why Griffith has not killed in a manner fitting to his character. The Deus Ex Machina pile up (and it's one after another) since the troll arc to shield Guts' highly ludicrous character have been a stuff of horrid writings. Him disregarding their existence has a lot more to do with poor writing than any deep thematic value. I really hope this plot recovers soon, as beyond Griffith, there isn't much salvageable material there and Guts' quest for vengeance is as nonsensical as Casca's memory loss that has lasted over a decade worth of chapters ...
Honestly, there is just no contest. Guts is everything that is terrible with cooke-cutter representation of characters across various medias and genres and manga in general. There is just barely enough material to even make him bearable ...
 
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nuur mohamed

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It's because he lacks depth. His character is very simplistic and straight forward. He doesn't shoulder any plot-changing or meaningful metaphors within the plot itself. That would be Griffith. You take Griffith out of the plot and there is no plot. That is how weak a character Guts is as the entire slew of causalities are created, crafted and set to revolve around Griffith and Griffith only. It's also interesting that Griffith now influences the causalities within the manga as well as this is what GodHands do. An almost fourth wall kind of affair.

Another factor that is really offputting is the consistent rise in Deus Ex Machina for this character. It has left Naruto as a character in the dust in this regard. I am not even trying to be funny here. The very first is the Behelit itself. Guts doesn't seem to have lost it (no matter how comical the situation) and the author has offered no reasoning as to why a key that is already used once can be used again in any manner. It makes little sense given the powers it provides. Skull-King seems to have a trove of it and it makes the whole thing even more laughable. Femto doesn't seem to be too concerned with SK's comical collection so far as well (the point till where I have read anyway; albeit, I am aware of Falconia's plotline and that makes it even more absurd).

Then we have the troll arc. The armor just appeared out of nowhere in just the nick of time to aid Guts. But wait, it was wielded by SK as well. It allows him to harness an awesome power and fight an apostle whose physical strength was far more enhanced than ordinary ones. The reasoning for the armor is so flimsy that I cannot stress it enough as to how much the writing faltered there; it was badly crafted comedy on pages. The armor even fixes his bones during the fight. His strength got so magically enhanced that the apostle was forced to assume his true form and still he was struggling. He, apparently, has an inner demon as well. And the icing on the cake is that he has to lie outside the tale (when he already does lie in the shallow stratum) to beat Griffith. I do not think this can get any worse than this. Slan has magically shown an interest in him as well. Why? Because she wants him to plunge his "big, thick sword into her." Or so we are told, because it's so "es-pha-shal!"

Schierke is this ... bottomless bag of solutions. She has the answer to everything. She also has this puberty lust thing going on for Guts and it's just plain disturbing. Honestly, everything about this one-dimensional character is off-putting. Whenever a problem appears, she defeats it nearly always. She's his go-to armor; an impenetrable one. Griffith just doesn't magically decide to go to her mistress himself to kill her when he can control Time and Space. He just leaves everything to his weaker subordinates, when they were hardly the strongest apostles at that time. No valid reasons are given for this stupidity, when the man is a god.

Their child he chose to merge with just maintained his consciousness. Why? No reason, but just another causality defying nonsensical Deux Ex Machina for Guts to exploit later on, as a god was not able to extinguish a consciousness of a mere child that only got corrupted with a bit of his sperm ... or err something. I am sure I will find others if I think hard enough, but this is terrible enough. It exhibits how flimsy and utterly horrendous a character Guts is.

Every single encounter feels the same; he takes his giant sword out and starts swinging and blood is splattered everywhere. Full stop. You have an idiotic, caricatural motley bunch that stands in a state of stupor (mostly) as he does so and offers "ooohhs and ahhhhs" every single time. And Schierke chants mumbo-jumbo and they are saved, because she is just this impossible juggernaut of magic. There is no stopping the Schierke train. It's like a constant loop of the same kind of nonsensical garbage over and over and over again ... and I have grown weary of it. Guts' inner demon struggles feel like something straight out of the poorly written lyrics of a Tumblr girl with much less talent. It's a comedic affair ... as it is outwardly personified in the worst kind of ways; I mean, a hell hound? Really?

The facial expressions, poses and grunts that accompany it make it seem like he's endeavouring his very best to pass a long overdue stool hybernating in his posterior for a month; it feels like a mundane routine affair. And it's almost the same damn face! The same damned struggles and the same damned tedious show of Bruce-McGruff hyper-masculine rubbish. People actually like this? I am baffled!

The bunch that aids him aren't any less ridiculous. Good Lord, was Miura ever serious with Farneze? She's the pinnacle of human stupidity and bad penning in every single manner, and she will also become a magic user; another powerful addition in his OP belt ...

Griffith, on the other hand, can be summed up in this manner (I will just copy-paste my post from another thread):



Honestly, there is just no contest. Guts is everything that is terrible with cooke-cutter representation of characters across various medias and genres and manga in general. There is just barely enough material to even make him bearable ...
I'm not saying I agree or disagree but man do I give you props for writing that much and your frustration with how you think some of these charaters were written made me bust a gut. But nice job and thanks for writing that much, was really good reading what your thoughts are on some of these characters.
 

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I'm not saying I agree or disagree but man do I give you props for writing that much and your frustration with how you think some of these charaters were written made me bust a gut. But nice job and thanks for writing that much, was really good reading what your thoughts are on some of these characters.
Cheers!
 

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Wait I have one thing to say even with guts op belt of magic users they are not even close to femto in terms of power I mean he is still literally a god compared to them and what the sk said about Griffith pretty much tells you how powerful he is "griffith is like a author of a book u have to be outside the story to beat him" I think the reason why muira keeps the story going even though it may be a small factor is he is still thinking of a way for guts to beat the god hand. Due to their almost omnipotent abilities to even change the fabric of the world as seen with Griffith so if guts gets a few powerups and powerful allies here and there is it really a big problem ? I mean kintaro has to wrap up the series at some point unless he ends it with guts fully forgetting his revenge, which is highly unlikely due to the presences of the beast of darkness and his massive foreshadowing to another tragic even soon to come in guts life and him loosing those "op" allies so the odds are against guts because of the fact that he may very well loose everything and be consumed by his hatred and once more go on a crusade to kill a god which very well be impossible due to, what we know about Griffith and his abilities so in the end of the day I ask if guts having powerful comrades is a real problem and that he may very well loose the "op belt:XD" he has and may or may not have in the future of berserk and the series end with Griffith winning and Guts stuck in tragedy and rage for the remainder of his life. So I don't see guts having small powerups here and there and strong comrades a problem.
 
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Wait I have one thing to say even with guts op belt of magic users they are not even close to femto in terms of power I mean he is still literally a god compared to them and what the sk said about Griffith pretty much tells you how powerful he is "griffith is like a author of a book u have to be outside the story to beat him" I think the reason why muira keeps the story going even though it may be a small factor is he is still thinking of a way for guts to beat the god hand. Due to their almost omnipotent abilities to even change the fabric of the world as seen with Griffith so if guts gets a few powerups and powerful allies here and there is it really a big problem ? I mean kintaro has to wrap up the series at some point unless he ends it with guts fully forgetting his revenge, which is highly unlikely due to the presences of the beast of darkness and his massive foreshadowing to another tragic even soon to come in guts life and him loosing those "op" allies so the odds are against guts because of the fact that he may very well loose everything and be consumed by his hatred and once more go on a crusade to kill a god which very well be impossible due to, what we know about Griffith and his abilities so in the end of the day I ask if guts having powerful comrades is a real problem and that he may very well loose the "op belt:XD" he has and may or may not have in the future of berserk and the series end with Griffith winning and Guts stuck in tragedy and rage for the remainder of his life. So I don't see guts having small powerups here and there and strong comrades a problem.
Which is the whole point; he's steadily amassing power and it just seems absurd to me.
 

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Which is the whole point; he's steadily amassing power and it just seems absurd to me.
Exactly like if he faces griffith with his allies in all honesty that can't do jack shit to him all they will get is probably a one sided massacre it's absurd how muira thinks those allies will ever be able to do something to the god hand if guts ever chooses to wage a war against. And I think he knew of this and is planning to kill them off to try and mess with guts at every moment. For example the witch is helping guts against slan or void what absurd power does she have to face a reality warping god-like being, nothing from what we know about her. So I'm wondering how muira plans to get rid of them, if he does plan for them to die without fans calling bs unless he creates a new concept to be a sort of weakness for the Godhand so guts can exploit it. But in other words griffith is pretty much untouchable at this time and Guts allies are just people waiting to be slaughtered if guts ever chooses to take them to a fight against the Godhand.
 

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Golden-Age Griffith is probably the best-written character in the manga. He undergoes dynamic character development with the weight of his men's lives bearing on his shoulders, not to mention Guts subtly encouraging Griffith's increasing ruthlessness. Griffith also had a wide variety of how people perceived him. Many only saw him as a symbol and put him on a pedestal. Very few (e.g. Guts, Casca), saw Griffith for who he truly was: an ambitious man wrecked with guilt, uncertainty, and increasingly dependent upon his closest aids to keep himself together. For all his brilliance, he was also deeply flawed. Griffith felt human.

Current Griffith bores me. All he does is stand around and look pretty, as if he's a Ken Doll. We see no emotion and we don't know what he's thinking. That's why I liked the scene where Rickert slaps him since Griffith drops his stoic demeanor for once, even if it lasted only for a single moment. As far as my preferences goes, current Guts is vastly superior for the simple fact he's more relatable. For all of Guts' flaws, and there are many, he feels human.

I suppose this is intentional though since post-Eclipse Griffith is no longer human. Still, Godhand like Ubik and especially Slan are expressive and we see glimpses of their thought-process. Ironically, this makes them seem more "relatable" than Griffith.
 

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I think we can all like Guts, for his rough blunt nature, badass giant sword, fearlessness, lone wolf mindset, etc. However as far as depth and complexity, it isn't really a contest. Griffith is the much more intriguing character, we are never completely sure what he is thinking or planning and he goes through much change throughout the series.
 

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They're both great characters as centerpieces of the story. I wouldn't describe Griffith as being "deeper" than Guts though. The discrepancy between them is related to their motivations. Guts is more simplistic and easier to understand. Griffith is a bit different. That's not to say that Griffith isn't more interesting than Guts, because I guess I would have to say he probably is. But that's due to his lack of humanity. His actions aren't easy to understand to most readers.

Every good villain is the protagonist of their own story, and Griffith is definitely living this out in the story right now and has been for some time.
 

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It's because he lacks depth. His character is very simplistic and straight forward. He doesn't shoulder any plot-changing or meaningful metaphors within the plot itself. That would be Griffith. You take Griffith out of the plot and there is no plot. That is how weak a character Guts is as the entire slew of causalities are created, crafted and set to revolve around Griffith and Griffith only. It's also interesting that Griffith now influences the causalities within the manga as well as this is what GodHands do. An almost fourth wall kind of affair.

Another factor that is really offputting is the consistent rise in Deus Ex Machina for this character. It has left Naruto as a character in the dust in this regard. I am not even trying to be funny here. The very first is the Behelit itself. Guts doesn't seem to have lost it (no matter how comical the situation) and the author has offered no reasoning as to why a key that is already used once can be used again in any manner. It makes little sense given the powers it provides. Skull-King seems to have a trove of it and it makes the whole thing even more laughable. Femto doesn't seem to be too concerned with SK's comical collection so far as well (the point till where I have read anyway; albeit, I am aware of Falconia's plotline and that makes it even more absurd).

Then we have the troll arc. The armor just appeared out of nowhere in just the nick of time to aid Guts. But wait, it was wielded by SK as well. It allows him to harness an awesome power and fight an apostle whose physical strength was far more enhanced than ordinary ones. The reasoning for the armor is so flimsy that I cannot stress it enough as to how much the writing faltered there; it was badly crafted comedy on pages. The armor even fixes his bones during the fight. His strength got so magically enhanced that the apostle was forced to assume his true form and still he was struggling. He, apparently, has an inner demon as well. And the icing on the cake is that he has to lie outside the tale (when he already does lie in the shallow stratum) to beat Griffith. I do not think this can get any worse than this. Slan has magically shown an interest in him as well. Why? Because she wants him to plunge his "big, thick sword into her." Or so we are told, because it's so "es-pha-shal!"

Schierke is this ... bottomless bag of solutions. She has the answer to everything. She also has this puberty lust thing going on for Guts and it's just plain disturbing. Honestly, everything about this one-dimensional character is off-putting. Whenever a problem appears, she defeats it nearly always. She's his go-to armor; an impenetrable one. Griffith just doesn't magically decide to go to her mistress himself to kill her when he can control Time and Space. He just leaves everything to his weaker subordinates, when they were hardly the strongest apostles at that time. No valid reasons are given for this stupidity, when the man is a god.

Their child he chose to merge with just maintained his consciousness. Why? No reason, but just another causality defying nonsensical Deux Ex Machina for Guts to exploit later on, as a god was not able to extinguish a consciousness of a mere child that only got corrupted with a bit of his sperm ... or err something. I am sure I will find others if I think hard enough, but this is terrible enough. It exhibits how flimsy and utterly horrendous a character Guts is.

Every single encounter feels the same; he takes his giant sword out and starts swinging and blood is splattered everywhere. Full stop. You have an idiotic, caricatural motley bunch that stand in a state of stupor (mostly) as he does so and offer "ooohhs and ahhhhs" every single time. And Schierke chants mumbo-jumbo and they are saved, because she is just this impossible juggernaut of magic. There is no stopping the Schierke train. It's like a constant loop of the same kind of nonsensical garbage over and over and over again ... and I have grown weary of it. Guts' inner demon struggles feel like something straight out of the poorly written lyrics of a Tumblr girl with much less talent. It's a comedic affair ... as it is outwardly personified in the worst kind of ways; I mean, a hell hound? Really?

The facial expressions, poses and grunts that accompany it make it seem like he's endeavouring his very best to pass a long overdue stool hibernating in his posterior for a month; it feels like a mundane routine affair. And it's almost the same damn face! The same damned struggles and the same damned tedious show of Bruce-McGruff hyper-masculine rubbish. People actually like this? I am baffled!

The bunch that aids him aren't any less ridiculous. Good Lord, was Miura ever serious with Farneze? She's the pinnacle of human stupidity and bad penning in every single manner, and she will also become a magic user; another powerful addition in Guts' OP belt ...

Griffith, on the other hand, can be summed up in this manner (I will just copy-paste my post from another thread):



Honestly, there is just no contest. Guts is everything that is terrible with cooke-cutter representation of characters across various medias and genres and manga in general. There is just barely enough material to even make him bearable ...
This is a long post so i will address just some of the things i disagreed about after reading your well written post. This is of course just my view:
Berserk was always guts's story. The struggle of man against the inevitable. Guts's story was always about a straight forward guy , a simpleton who despite his lack of "qualities", "status" and "luck" found a way to survive and at the same time was always controlled by the "fate" he so viciously fought against throughout the manga.He survived despite everything and despite having "seemingly" no connection to the forces which created and governed Griffith fate. And yet, at the same time we see throughout the manga time and time again how Guts is fighting a losing battle, he cannot win no matter what he does, it's the wheel of fate.The slew of causalities as you wrote it have governed both Guts and Griffith lives, in a way it was made to look as if Guts was just a pawn in Griffith's string, and despite all of that till this day we don't know where Gut's ultimate end and fate lies, it was a mystery established from the early parts of the manga. The "rise of deus ex machina" in his character as you wrote it, isn't that. The whole point of his character is his constant struggle for survival, beating certain death, continuing to live without knowing what are the things that allow him to survive these impossible situations, what truly "governs" his fate.Guts is one of the most scarred characters in manga history, he was tortured from the beginning, used as a soldier as a child, mentally and physically tortured throughout his life, lost everything he had after gaining a semblance of a family with the band of the hawk as well as his loved one at the eclipse. He lost his best friend- turned enemy, he's gone almost mad in his quest for revenge, harboring growing hate that eats him from within, and was on the verge of turning into the "monster" he fought against several times throughout the story. He was never the perfect guy, the good guy who always wins like Naruto, but completely the opposite; we've witnessed a man's slow decent into madness, a man whose body had been brutalized beyond repair; he lost his arm, eye and part of his mind in that scene which you described as nonsense - a scene which was the culmination of the whole "Golden age arc" and the basis for the story that was established in chapter one. If you want, we'll discuss why that scene was so important but i won't expand in this post.
I don't know what part are you in the manga but the Berserker armor is anything but what you described; it's a cursed item that is eating up whatever's left of Gat's ravaged body with every use. Gut's physical state is in its worst its ever been and he continues to amass injuries and damage, both mentally and physically with each "victory". Just like the Behelit, that armor will play a crucial part in what's to come.
That Behelit is the most significant item within the plot, and it's clear that Miura has kept it in order to use it perhaps at the most crucial point - whenever that may be. It's another mystery established from the start that casts its shadow on the story. SK's and the Baby's roles as well as Griffith's extent of his powers, knowledge and "sight" will probably be addressed by Miura when the time is right. Gut's "inner demon" is a representation of his hate, his darkest desires and thoughts, it's represented as a hound, because it calls back to when Casca called Guts a "rabid dog"; Miura had always intended to depict Guts that way.You find Guts's companions to be stupid and plot protected but their role was always in relation to Guts's character development and story line; the recent arcs from the troll arc and onward, were meant to show Guts's growing connection with new companions, having a family again, they were meant to show his ongoing change from the loner that he was at the start of the manga to someone who can depend on others.It was meant to evoke the old band of the hawk in Gut's mind and imo, Miura has been building them up these past few years for a reason and no, not in the way that you described them. They have a purpose in Gut's life. In a way, they are his "band", his "pawns", mirroring Griffith own band and the tragedy that may follow suit.
The manga may have seemed peaceful and a bit redundant these last few years,treading waters. However, i'm sure Miura has been manipulating us - the readers - to get a false sense of security and predictability, before turning the manga on its head once again. Without spoiling - as i don't know if you've reached chapter 347 - but this year may be the most crucial year to the plot since the revival of Griffith.
 

Brandish μ

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Both characters are great and well written. Griffiths character is more profound (for the lack of a better word) in that he's a ruler of men and has grand ambitions. Guts struggles are internal, and they're raw and gritty to the point that he personifies the manga title. They both develop well. Muira draws them superbly... Griffith with angelic elegance, and Guts with rage.
 

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I am going to reply this paragraph by paragraph so that it doesn't get confusing.

This is a long post so i will address just some of the things i disagreed about after reading your well written post. This is of course just my view:

Berserk was always guts's story. The struggle of man against the inevitable. Guts's story was always about a straight forward guy , a simpleton who despite his lack of "qualities", "status" and "luck" found a way to survive and at the same time was always controlled by the "fate" he so viciously fought against throughout the manga.He survived despite everything and despite having "seemingly" no connection to the forces which created and governed Griffith fate. And yet, at the same time we see throughout the manga time and time again how Guts is fighting a losing battle, he cannot win no matter what he does, it's the wheel of fate.The slew of causalities as you wrote it have governed both Guts and Griffith lives, in a way it was made to look as if Guts was just a pawn in Griffith's string, and despite all of that till this day we don't know where Gut's ultimate end and fate lies, it was a mystery established from the early parts of the manga. The "rise of deus ex machina" in his character as you wrote it, isn't that. The whole point of his character is his constant struggle for survival, beating certain death, continuing to live without knowing what are the things that allow him to survive these impossible situations, what truly "governs" his fate.
I never stated that this story isn't about Guts. Yes, it is his tale. He is the main character of the manga. However, that was not the argument I tried to make; my main problem with the manga is the "bag of tricks" Guts' entire character seems to work with. It isn't about surviving against impossible odds anymore. It's about the constant survival against impossible odds and opponents who can end his life with silly ease, but simply choose not to on ridiculous whims. It's this constant cycle of, 'manga has introduced a villain, now let's wait for Guts to respond in a tried and recycled fashion' and he always wins.

If a character keeps on beating ridiculous odds all the time, what's the point of any agents' offering hurdles? The man has become a gimmick in his own manga. It has become so predictable now as when an arc starts I already know beforehand that Guts will get through in a savage, blood-spattering frenzy that looks really silly now. The very first time Guts' survived was because Femto chose not to kill him. He didn't survive on his own merit. It was because Femto let him. Hence, his own journey began because Griffith chose to let him live in hell. He didn't kill Casca because of the child. So, both his reasons had logic behind it that was revealed years ahead in the narrative scheme. How can you tell me that it is not poor writing?

We knew that these lesser gods governed fates. Void's speech taught us as much. The deliberation was on Femto's part now. He chose to deliberate, and we were left hanging for god knows how long. It's just poor writing. Femto juggling fates make sense; this is what the story is built upon. In fact, Griffith's fate is what turned this story into a plot. As I explained, you take Griffith out of the equation and the whole thing just falls apart. You cannot really compare Guts' fates to Griffith's. Both are very different ball games.

Guts is one of the most scarred characters in manga history, he was tortured from the beginning, used as a soldier as a child, mentally and physically tortured throughout his life, lost everything he had after gaining a semblance of a family with the band of the hawk as well as his loved one at the eclipse. He lost his best friend- turned enemy, he's gone almost mad in his quest for revenge, harboring growing hate that eats him from within, and was on the verge of turning into the "monster" he fought against several times throughout the story. He was never the perfect guy, the good guy who always wins like Naruto, but completely the opposite; we've witnessed a man's slow decent into madness, a man whose body had been brutalized beyond repair; he lost his arm, eye and part of his mind in that scene which you described as nonsense - a scene which was the culmination of the whole "Golden age arc" and the basis for the story that was established in chapter one. If you want, we'll discuss why that scene was so important but i won't expand in this post.
I wouldn't say the most, but that would just be my own opinion. I respectfully disagree with this. I find Sasuke and Nagato from Naruto to have far terrible pasts and lives compared to Guts. Heck, I find Griffith's year long torture to be far more harrowing than what Guts' faced. Whilst I do understand his attachment to hawk, I cannot fathom the extent of his attachment to the people he merely knew for about two years. This much attachment to people whom he knew for such a short span of time is neither realistic nor understandable. And that's why Guts' irks me. His character is hyperbolic. It's exaggerated rather than grounded in reality.

Such friendships are forged over several years, not two. Keep that in mind that he had to fight hard to get into the band during his first year, despite Griffith's favour. No one trusted him. They belittled and humiliated him. It was Griffith that stepped in to aid him repeatedly. I have never understood why he has laid claim over hawk. They were never his men. They were Griffith's and they were fully willing to sacrifice themselves for his dream. They stated so many times. Why stake your claim over such men that had pledged their allegiances to another and were willing to end their lives to become his stepping stones from the very beginning?

Why forget the times when Griffith saved his life more than once by putting his own and the lives of his troops in danger? There are two sides to every coin. Sure, Guts' thinks that they got betrayed, but what about Griffith's acts of mercy towards him? Even when he was a man near death, Griffith's quick thinking still saved them in the dungeons. How can he forget all those acts? Why fight for people that were never his family? Why start a quest for vengeance that is built upon blossoming friendships rather than years of trust and love? We know from Casca's confession that when she was saved, Griffith already had troops. Most probably the formations of his hawk. He knew them for years. How can he climb this pedestal all on its own? It's an anathema to me. Everything he does is just so ... overblown that it appears nonsensical as a whole.

I don't know what part are you in the manga but the Berserker armor is anything but what you described; it's a cursed item that is eating up whatever's left of Gat's ravaged body with every use. Gut's physical state is in its worst its ever been and he continues to amass injuries and damage, both mentally and physically with each "victory". Just like the Behelit, that armor will play a crucial part in what's to come.

That Behelit is the most significant item within the plot, and it's clear that Miura has kept it in order to use it perhaps at the most crucial point - whenever that may be. It's another mystery established from the start that casts its shadow on the story. SK's and the Baby's roles as well as Griffith's extent of his powers, knowledge and "sight" will probably be addressed by Miura when the time is right. Gut's "inner demon" is a representation of his hate, his darkest desires and thoughts, it's represented as a hound, because it calls back to when Casca called Guts a "rabid dog"; Miura had always intended to depict Guts that way.
I have read 270 chapters so far with a few summaries of the coming arcs. And so far, it doesn't seem all that promising. I am well aware of the items. Yes, it is cursed. I believe I did state so as well. If I didn't then the mistake lies on my part. My issue again is with the sudden 'popping up' of the item at such a convenient time when Griffith had sent in his apostles to end the witch's life. For someone who controls the threads of fates, he never saw this coming? That is why I called it contrived because it just is as the author has already shoved in a comical reason that, "yo, they can, like, escape it too!" What is the whole point of the original world lore, then? This renders it almost pointless, because one can easily predict that Guts' will he that man who defies and eludes fates. He's just meant to be that special! Things and people appearing at the nick of time to solve issues in a plot is never good writing. Not to mention it defies the lore of the gods established by the plot itself. What was the point of it all if special cases can escape its grasp? It just makes the whole story crumble.

Of course, they will play crucial parts. Which is why I posted that long post: it's Deus Ex Machina. The author is deliberately pulling things out of his posterior without any decent exposition or threads to justify any of those. What is the use of the Behelit beyond what we have seen? Its true use? About fifteen plus years onwards, we are still in the dark and it's an absurdly stretched out cliche at this point. He is simply brushing things under the cloak of "causality" when the plot itself runs on it: it's its engine; its lifeline; its sole reason for existence. To create a new kind of causality that runs with the existing plot's causality doesn't make any sense to begin with and it's made more convoluted and poorly written when one can easily see where this is going: Guts' beating the gods! It's the age-old trope and he's just filling that overused mould. What new thing is Miura trying to accomplish here?

This isn't a mystery any more. It is just a piece of writing without any lore, going forward on a whim and then, BAM!, something happens and the oh so 'crucial' thing gets used. It's just ... ridiculous at this point. When are we going to know what the Behelit does? Probably when Mirua comes up with something highly absurd to create another pathway for Guts' smooth sailing. He doesn't appear to have thought of it yet.

You find Guts's companions to be stupid and plot protected but their role was always in relation to Guts's character development and story line; the recent arcs from the troll arc and onward, were meant to show Guts's growing connection with new companions, having a family again, they were meant to show his ongoing change from the loner that he was at the start of the manga to someone who can depend on others.It was meant to evoke the old band of the hawk in Gut's mind and imo, Miura has been building them up these past few years for a reason and no, not in the way that you described them. They have a purpose in Gut's life. In a way, they are his "band", his "pawns", mirroring Griffith own band and the tragedy that may follow suit.

The manga may have seemed peaceful and a bit redundant these last few years,treading waters. However, i'm sure Miura has been manipulating us - the readers - to get a false sense of security and predictability, before turning the manga on its head once again. Without spoiling - as i don't know if you've reached chapter 347 - but this year may be the most crucial year to the plot since the revival of Griffith.
I find them pointless because they are less than one-dimensional. Guts' has gone through little to no character development while being with them. His internal struggles are a repeated cycle. This isn't development; it's flimsy character progression. He either broods in the corner or he screams and cuts up things. That is all I have been seeing for the past hundred or so chapters. The dog struggles are as exaggerated at ever. At first, he at least had some conflicts, let them be repeated and overplayed gimmicks, but with this witch around, even that is solved with a stroke of a wand, pun intended.

All this group does is be "solutions" for him when the hawks weren't like this. They were never solutions for impossible odds. Griffith led them like a proper commander. They were just good soldiers. That is what separates them for me. One are practical and the other are caricatures who are sources of solutions for Guts.

I hope it picks up, as the way it is going, I am having a hard time even proceeding onwards. Well, this got too long. I hope I explained my thought process in the most detailed way possible. You can leave the point you wanted to cover but chose not to, but I don't come here that often and you might have to wait for the reply. It's entirely up to you.
 
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That's one hell of a question. They're both so well developed. I love Guts because he's a bad ass and the protagonist. But at the same time Griffith is one of the best villains in fiction I have ever seen. The golden age arc really built this for me. Their relationship was so well done and yea a good character is someone you can relate to. I understood why Griffith was jealous of Guts. "When did he become my dream?" Comes to mind. I guess I don't have an answer. To me they're both amazing characters because the other one exists.
 

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I am going to reply this paragraph by paragraph so that it doesn't get confusing.



I never stated that this story isn't about Guts. Yes, it is his tale. He is the main character of the manga. However, that was not the argument I tried to make; my main problem with the manga is the "bag of tricks" Guts' entire character seems to work with. It isn't about surviving against impossible odds anymore. It's about the constant survival against impossible odds and opponents who can end his life with silly ease, but simply choose not to on ridiculous whims. It's this constant cycle of, 'manga has introduced a villain, now let's wait for Guts to respond in a tried and recycled fashion' and he always wins.

If a character keeps on beating ridiculous odds all the time, what's the point of any agents' offering hurdles? The man has become a gimmick in his own manga. It has become so predictable now as when an arc starts I already know beforehand that Guts will get through in a savage, blood-spattering frenzy that looks really silly now. The very first time Guts' survived was because Femto chose not to kill him. He didn't survive on his own merit. It was because Femto let him. Hence, his own journey began because Griffith chose to let him live in hell. He didn't kill Casca because of the child. So, both his reasons had logic behind it that was revealed years ahead in the narrative scheme. How can you tell me that it is not poor writing?

We knew that these lesser gods governed fates. Void's speech taught us as much. The deliberation was on Femto's part now. He chose to deliberate, and we were left hanging for god knows how long. It's just poor writing. Femto juggling fates make sense; this is what the story is built upon. In fact, Griffith's fate is what turned this story into a plot. As I explained, you take Griffith out of the equation and the whole thing just falls apart. You cannot really compare Guts' fates to Griffith's. Both are very different ball games.



I wouldn't say the most, but that would just be my own opinion. I respectfully disagree with this. I find Sasuke and Nagato from Naruto to have far terrible pasts and lives compared to Guts. Heck, I find Griffith's year long torture to be far more harrowing than what Guts' faced. Whilst I do understand his attachment to hawk, I cannot fathom the extent of his attachment to the people he merely knew for about two years. This much attachment to people whom he knew for such a short span of time is neither realistic nor understandable. And that's why Guts' irks me. His character is hyperbolic. It's exaggerated rather than grounded in reality.

Such friendships are forged over several years, not two. Keep that in mind that he had to fight hard to get into the band during his first year, despite Griffith's favour. No one trusted him. They belittled and humiliated him. It was Griffith that stepped in to aid him repeatedly. I have never understood why he has laid claim over hawk. They were never his men. They were Griffith's and they were fully willing to sacrifice themselves for his dream. They stated so many times. Why stake your claim over such men that had pledged their allegiances to another and were willing to end their lives to become his stepping stones from the very beginning?

Why forget the times when Griffith saved his life more than once by putting his own and the lives of his troops in danger? There are two sides to every coin. Sure, Guts' thinks that they got betrayed, but what about Griffith's acts of mercy towards him? Even when he was a man near death, Griffith's quick thinking still saved them in the dungeons. How can he forget all those acts? Why fight for people that were never his family? Why start a quest for vengeance that is built upon blossoming friendships rather than years of trust and love? We know from Casca's confession that when she was saved, Griffith already had troops. Most probably the formations of his hawk. He knew them for years. How can he climb this pedestal all on its own? It's an anathema to me. Everything he does is just so ... overblown that it appears nonsensical as a whole.



I have read 270 chapters so far with a few summaries of the coming arcs. And so far, it doesn't seem all that promising. I am well aware of the items. Yes, it is cursed. I believe I did state so as well. If I didn't then the mistake lies on my part. My issue again is with the sudden 'popping up' of the item at such a convenient time when Griffith had sent in his apostles to end the witch's life. For someone who controls the threads of fates, he never saw this coming? That is why I called it contrived because it just is as the author has already shoved in a comical reason that, "yo, they can, like, escape it too!" What is the whole point of the original world lore, then? This renders it almost pointless, because one can easily predict that Guts' will he that man who defies and eludes fates. He's just meant to be that special! Things and people appearing at the nick of time to solve issues in a plot is never good writing. Not to mention it defies the lore of the gods established by the plot itself. What was the point of it all if special cases can escape its grasp? It just makes the whole story crumble.

Of course, they will play crucial parts. Which is why I posted that long post: it's Deus Ex Machina. The author is deliberately pulling things out of his posterior without any decent exposition or threads to justify any of those. What is the use of the Behelit beyond what we have seen? Its true use? About fifteen plus years onwards, we are still in the dark and it's an absurdly stretched out cliche at this point. He is simply brushing things under the cloak of "causality" when the plot itself runs on it: it's its engine; its lifeline; its sole reason for existence. To create a new kind of causality that runs with the existing plot's causality doesn't make any sense to begin with and it's made more convoluted and poorly written when one can easily see where this is going: Guts' beating the gods! It's the age-old trope and he's just filling that overused mould. What new thing is Miura trying to accomplish here?

This isn't a mystery any more. It is just a piece of writing without any lore, going forward on a whim and then, BAM!, something happens and the oh so 'crucial' thing gets used. It's just ... ridiculous at this point. When are we going to know what the Behelit does? Probably when Mirua comes up with something highly absurd to create another pathway for Guts' smooth sailing. He doesn't appear to have thought of it yet.



I find them pointless because they are less than one-dimensional. Guts' has gone through little to no character development while being with them. His internal struggles are a repeated cycle. This isn't development; it's flimsy character progression. He either broods in the corner or he screams and cuts up things. That is all I have been seeing for the past hundred or so chapters. The dog struggles are as exaggerated at ever. At first, he at least had some conflicts, let them be repeated and overplayed gimmicks, but with this witch around, even that is solved with a stroke of a wand, pun intended.

All this group does is be "solutions" for him when the hawks weren't like this. They were never solutions for impossible odds. Griffith led them like a proper commander. They were just good soldiers. That is what separates them for me. One are practical and the other are caricatures who are sources of solutions for Guts.

I hope it picks up, as the way it is going, I am having a hard time even proceeding onwards. Well, this got too long. I hope I explained my thought process in the most detailed way possible. You can leave the point you wanted to cover but chose not to, but I don't come here that often and you might have to wait for the reply. It's entirely up to you.
Though i disagree with many of your points it is an interesting discussion and i respect your opinion. I'll reply to some of these points but it will be too long so i'll come back to it at a later time. I do suggest that you continue to read the manga till its latest chapters since we've just arrived at chapter 347.You've got a lot of catching up to.
 

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From my experience of reading Berserk, In the Golden Age, Guts was focused on nothingness while Griffith was focused on himself. It was because of this focus and the detachment they shared for the physical world, they were congenial.

Other than that Griffith was a bisexual happy person with positive experiences in his initial life while guts was a straight guy with negative experiences throughout his life. It was because of the negative involved, Guts was utterly focused on survival because negative eats. Moreover, the age where he was born had situation where you have to physically struggle to survive. Something that could match with his inner struggle. The end of his struggle is still unknown. May be, he will find a meaning to add in his life and direct it towards making it meaningful and hopefully, that meaning will be associated with doing what you love and making a change for the celebration of your kind. Especially when we have seen him struggling throughout the manga, it's sensible to show that kind of future occurrence related to Guts.

Griffith knew (subconsciously) the way to achieve his dream was to act out of love. That love manifested in the form of "interest" for an action. But the fact that he "needed" Guts deviated him. He didn't face enough struggle, still he was put in a position of critical importance and thus he was faced with the consequences.

Later on, Griffith became a God Hand, who has the power and the knowledge and the desire. But the creativity and the intuition that is associated with love was taken away. But when he took a physical form, he retained his love for Casca and Guts.

Now, if he doesn't listen to his intuition then he will be bound by the law of causality and will be punished in some indirect way. And if he listens to his intuition then he will protect Guts and Casca.




So all the characters are woven together as per the kind of and the quality of the story. There is no benchmark to compare the two characters. especially when they were perfectly portrayed as congenial as well as different in the same time. This also shows that the friends are an entity that are enjoyed early in your age. As you grow up, the fact of having a friend is improbable. You already had, and you learned from each other and moved on. Now what exist after growing up are "connections"
 
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