Discussion Yaoi and Fangirl Stereotypes

[fearme_I'mafangirl]

Fangirls get a bad rep whenever yaoi is brought up to anyone who isn't a female that enjoys it, regardless of how said person views yaoi.

When someone says "fangirl" in relation to anime/manga, most automatically assume 'oh, a yaoi fan.' I can't stand this very wide-spread stereotyping of female fandom.

Originally I refused to even look at anything related to slash just on principle, and while I have been partially converted via fanfiction, it still gets under my skin that this happens.

Your thoughts on the issue?

 

[Teeba]

For the longest time I was insecure about yaoi and slash because of all the bad rep women get for shipping it. I thought if I liked yaoi I would automatically be branded a woman-hater, and I (wrongly) viewed any criticism on female characters as an admission to liking yaoi. But bad fans exist in every fandom, and they can be men and women, fanboys and fangirls.

I think a lot of non-yaoi shippers assume we can't read non-yaoi mediums "properly". Like, "oh, you obviously don't care about the plot if you like yaoi."

Another yaoi fangirl stereotype I disagree with is that because I read yaoi, I have some kind of identity disorder because deep down inside, I want to be a gay man.

 

[Bloody Queen]

^ I agree with you there, Teeba. I wouldn't read BL stories if it just a load of fan-services with no obvious/interesting plot. And we all have different views of characters, just because I'm a BL fan-girl, I don't hate every single female characters. Vice versa; if anyone dislike a certain character, it doesn't mean they're yaoi/yuri fans.

Another stereotype I hate is BL fans' "preferences". My sister and I know two or three BL fan-boys as friends and they're as straight as a diamond pole. There's a case in youtube, a very known and popular youtube user is discovered to be a 'male' when the topic/videos he uploaded is related to female things (well, barely related). That single discovery encourage tens of people to post hate-comments, uncountable amount. Just — what the f***?!

When someone says "fangirl" in relation to anime/manga, most automatically assume 'oh, a yaoi fan.' I can't stand this very wide-spread stereotyping of female fandom.

That is also a big stereotype issue, and it doesn't exist on female fandome only. For example, let's say, Fairy Tail's fanboys. Just like people out there related fangirls with Yaoi/Slash, fanboys are almost instantly related with Ecchi/******/Yuri even though few of them are not.

 

[Teeba]

Bumping the thread here. Hope no one minds.

After some thought, I wonder why anti-yaoi and anti-slash people get so offended by yaoi. I've occasionally seen this on tumblr (even though tumblr is a very yaoi-friendly place and has a strong and active LGBT community) and I have to wonder why people get so offended over it. Its one thing to say, "oh, its just not my thing" but its another to rage and feel disappointed by fandom for "getting into yaoi", as if getting into yaoi somehow, degrades a piece of fiction (but ****** or ecchi is fine).

The reason it puzzles me so is that yaoi and slash have been around for so long, and there have been so many franchises that openly embrace the fujoshi audience. Heck, there's even been anime about fujoshi themselves and their issues, and definitely a lot of manga on it too. So why are there still pockets of haters who can't seem to get over it?

 

[Georgie]

Bumping the thread here. Hope no one minds.

After some thought, I wonder why anti-yaoi and anti-slash people get so offended by yaoi.

Some of it it's homophobia, some of them just find yaoi fangirls annoying, some of it has to do with the fact that some of the fanboys are uncomfortable because yaoi fangirls treat male characters like fanboys treat female characters and that scares them.

 

[Asclepius]

I'm probably the hiding stereotype. The one that avoids reading BL in front of anyone.

I come from a family with prejudice toward gay people and i currently live in a city full of prejudice against gays.
I already had some heated discussions with homophobic men against me liking Boys Love stories in my hometown (Rio de Janeiro).

And also i was called a dike (which i'm not) once in a social network for liking BL.

 

[Teeba]

Some of it it's homophobia, some of them just find yaoi fangirls annoying, some of it has to do with the fact that some of the fanboys are uncomfortable because yaoi fangirls treat male characters like fanboys treat female characters and that scares them.

But I've also seen women openly express dislike for yaoi too. I agree there are multiple factors though. And the last one is highly relevant especially since Free! just ended.

Free! got a lot of hate by anti-slashers because they just thought the anime industry was stooping too low or something. At the same time there were people who were convinced while watching Free! there was nothing to ship because they were all guys. (I tried understanding this logic but it seems like its ignoring all the subtext and controversy surrounding Free!)

I've also seen anti-yaoi be strongly linked to naivete. Like, people who haven't been exposed to much will dislike it, but consistent exposure to it will cause people will to change their minds and accept it.

I'm probably the hiding stereotype. The one that avoids reading BL in front of anyone.

I come from a family with prejudice toward gay people and i currently live in a city full of prejudice against gays.
I already had some heated discussions with homophobic men against me liking Boys Love stories in my hometown (Rio de Janeiro).

And also i was called a dike (which i'm not) once in a social network for liking BL.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Its similar to me too, the society that I grew up in has a lot of prejudice towards homosexuality, and its difficult outside of the internet to find people to talk about it. (then again, where I grew up anime was considered a kind of underground movement) I'm really glad Mangahelpers is as tolerant as it is about yaoi and BL.

I still live with my parents so I have to make sure my doujinshi doesn't get uncovered.

That is really awful though. People will use whatever word they want and its awful.

 

[SharkBait]

Bumping the thread here. Hope no one minds.

After some thought, I wonder why anti-yaoi and anti-slash people get so offended by yaoi. I've occasionally seen this on tumblr (even though tumblr is a very yaoi-friendly place and has a strong and active LGBT community) and I have to wonder why people get so offended over it. Its one thing to say, "oh, its just not my thing" but its another to rage and feel disappointed by fandom for "getting into yaoi", as if getting into yaoi somehow, degrades a piece of fiction (but ****** or ecchi is fine).

The reason it puzzles me so is that yaoi and slash have been around for so long, and there have been so many franchises that openly embrace the fujoshi audience. Heck, there's even been anime about fujoshi themselves and their issues, and definitely a lot of manga on it too. So why are there still pockets of haters who can't seem to get over it?

That reminds me of people getting angry in the Diabolik Lover tag and some otome tags that they were mad that people had yaoi ships for the characters...dont really see why people would get made over yaoi stuff and take it personally, its just love anyway. Anyway.

 

[Asarii]

Misogyny most likely plays a factor- actually it does play a factor. It's normal for a guy to read or watch ecchi/******, and it's okay for them to like girl on girl action. I mean... why else would t.A.T.u. be popular and successful in a country that has openly homophobic laws?

However, if a girl gets into R18 smut and enjoys boy on boy action? She's automatically labelled as a stupid fangirl who's invading the space of "real" fans and is struggling with internal misogyny. (I actually encountered those two arguments.) Let's not forget that there are men who like reading or have BL pairings -hi Sharkbait!- so the stereotype that everyone who ships two guys together is a woman is also prejudiced.

Thankfully I live in a LGBT friendly city, but it's still awkward to reveal that I'm a fujoshi to family and friends. It's strange and sad how I'm concerned by their reaction when I don't have to be scared about listing my NL ships.

 

[orenjichan92]

Okay, it's 3.43 a.m., and I would like to join into the discussion here... so please pardon me and my incoherent thought... I'm quite sober, but I can't be so sure...

Anyway, the stereotype of yaoi fangirl, or fujoshi (whatever, I'm rotten to the core.) are:

1. They don't like to read het-pairing, or even normal series will be gay, homo, whatever, in their hands.
I must say I'm quite offended. You see, I like hetetosexual pairing just fine.
I like shoujo, josei, shounen, seinen, as long as the story is good with lovable, or at least bearable characters.
However, if 3 out of 5 shoujo(s) offer me a meek, weak, stupid, moronic, idiotic, brainless, useless heroine, I would reject that so-called artwork immediately.
The reason I like yaoi because they offer someone who is not like those underlined traits mentioned above.
Of course, we still have those useless uke, which I despise, really... So the matter is not in the gender, but in the traits.
The gender in yaoi only make the romance seems sweeter.
As I said, 3 out of 5, there are some shoujo who offers great characters and lovable heroine. And I like those works, thankyouverymuch. I enjoy them just fine.
Besides, if we somehow make slash couples out of straight comic, I must says it is because either these rotten women have too wild imagination, or the works are to be blamed for giving hints, innuendo, or making the characters so touchy-feely with each others. I personally think it's both.

2. We have no moral.
Said someone who has done as many sins as we have.
So it is okay and normal for guys to watch lesbian porn, both 3D and 2D, but it is bad for girls to look at 2D men/boys, bonking loving each other? Puh-lease.

3. We support gay.
Ouch. I don't support gay, but I don't have anything to against them as well. I just don't care.
People want to be happy, if they are happy with same-sex lovers, then let them be. It's not like they are doing any crime.
Gay people are said to be very anxious about their sexuality, because they think they are not normal.
So, please, just be a good citizen, let them feel happy.
They are human beings, they deserve happiness in their life, just like you.
Oh, btw, yaoi itself is a little homophobic. I mean, with the super feminine uke x super masculine seme, totally not homosexual.
Not to mention, the earlier yaoi works usually insert words like, "We're just friends! There is no way guys can be together like that!" or "But we're both guys! It's not normal!" which leads to "I'm not gay (or homo)! It just happen that the one I love is a man!".
See? They do not want to admit they are gays or homosexual.
Beside, the act of same-sex penetration is not uncommon in Japan's history.
It's kind of complicated. So I'll just stop here.

4. Girls who like to read those stuff are lesbian.
While it is not impossible, I'm straight. I'm totally don't find women attractive in THAT way.

There are others, but I think I'll stop here before I'm complaining even further than this.

By the way, my family accidentally found out about my hobby...
I'm kind of, well, freaked out.
But my siblings are cool, they teased me about it, but don't really care...
And they are not otaku, btw... So I am quite surprised by their reactions.
But then, maybe they don't want me to freak out even more...

 

[Asarii]

Welcome to the discussion!

1. They don't like to read het-pairing, or even normal series will be gay, homo, whatever, in their hands.

While there are certainly a number of fujoshi who only read/watch BL, there are many of us who also like NL or even GL pairings.

Oh, btw, yaoi itself is a little homophobic. I mean, with the super feminine uke x super masculine seme, totally not homosexual.
Not to mention, the earlier yaoi works usually insert words like, "We're just friends! There is no way guys can be together like that!" or "But we're both guys! It's not normal!" which leads to "I'm not gay (or homo)! It just happen that the one I love is a man!".
See? They do not want to admit they are gays or homosexual.
Beside, the act of same-sex penetration is not uncommon in Japan's history.
It's kind of complicated. So I'll just stop here.

I agree. Back in the day when there were samurai, it was common for lords to take in a disciple and not only become a teacher but also a lover similar to Ancient Greece. It's indeed complicated, and I can only say very little about it because my knowledge is limited. (If anyone's interested, Yagyuu Hijouken Samon is a manga that touches on this topic.)

I don't like it when the distinction between seme and uke is too distinct where the uke is always young, feminine and petit.

By the way, my family accidentally found out about my hobby...
I'm kind of, well, freaked out.
But my siblings are cool, they teased me about it, but don't really care...
And they are not otaku, btw... So I am quite surprised by their reactions.
But then, maybe they don't want me to freak out even more...

Oh no! This is my biggest fear actually.

 

[Akisume]

However, if 3 out of 5 shoujo(s) offer me a meek, weak, stupid, moronic, idiotic, brainless, useless heroine, I would reject that so-called artwork immediately.

Well, This looks like a good place to start. I think the word you're looking for here is not artwork, but plot work, or character dynamics. Rejecting the art means you hate the style of drawing, while rejecting the character dynamics or plot work is what you're talking about, I assume.

Of course, we still have those useless uke, which I despise, really... So the matter is not in the gender, but in the traits.

Not all uke are useless. try again.

Oh, btw, yaoi itself is a little homophobic. I mean, with the super feminine uke x super masculine seme, totally not homosexual.
Not to mention, the earlier yaoi works usually insert words like, "We're just friends! There is no way guys can be together like that!" or "But we're both guys! It's not normal!" which leads to "I'm not gay (or homo)! It just happen that the one I love is a man!".
See? They do not want to admit they are gays or homosexual.
Beside, the act of same-sex penetration is not uncommon in Japan's history.
It's kind of complicated. So I'll just stop here.

I myself happen to like the stereotypical uke and seme due to the... wonderful smut that follows, but not all yaoi are like that and believe it or not, there is a reason behind the characters saying those phrases.

while Japan does have a history of same-sex penetration acts, relationships between same-sex partners were not accepted by their culture. Most of these acts were done under the radar or in secret and were meant to stay that way. The acts were merely considered training or relieving oneself of sexual desires and were not in any way considered relationships. Same thing with Greece.

While I'm not clear on Japan's policy about gays, I know it's not something they entirely welcome as much as other countries or America does. The earlier yaoi's merely reflect the point of view from that time period. And even to this day, the subject of gays in Japan is touch and go.

Not all yaoi's have the stereotypical uke and seme; in fact, considering I've read over a hundred, I've come across more yaoi's that DO NOT have the stereotypical uke and seme and more that HAVE semi-realistic relationships between the seme and uke. And another thing; the characters are fictional! Of course they're going to make two extremes for a love relationship! that's common manga knowledge!

If you need proof of my statement for yaoi relationships; ask me and I'll give you a few to check out.

 

[Niffer]

Hey! I thought this was a really interesting discussion and wanted to join in ^^

Personally, I don't know if it's because I'm from the UK or just grown up lucky, but I'd never come across hate for LGBT and BL loving fangirls until I was in my early 20s and got more involved online. Personally I'm bi, and I love BL and yuri and hetro, basically anything cute, funny and hot, and the people around me either accept that (even if it's not their thing) or it is their thing and that's awesome too. So I never really experienced hate towards being a fan girl.

Although saying that I met a Japanese guy online who said female otaku who like BL are terrifying, but after we had a really good conversation he was able to understand them a lot better. I think it's more out of ignorance and lack of wanting to listen to others that causes people hate so much. Basically the conversation boiled down to "Ew gay sex is disgusting, why would girls be into that? The things they draw and write in doujinshi is gross", to which I replied with "well I'd say hetro stuff can be just as perverted, look at all the ****** out there. There really isn't that much of a difference between the two."

It's like what Teeba mentioned:

Free! got a lot of hate by anti-slashers because they just thought the anime industry was stooping too low or something.

I remember this happening and thinking "What about all the fan service for straight guys?! What's wrong with a bit of fan service for the fan girls?!"

So from my perspective the people that hate on fangirls are either ignorant and/or they like to feel better about themselves by pushing others down (these are the type that ridicule for the sake of being mean).


In response to Japan's attitudes, I've had a friend who was doing homestay with a Japanese family and there was a gay personality on TV. The dad basically turned around to her and said "he's only acting, gays don't really exist in Japan". I think the younger people are more accepting of LGBT in Japan but the elder generation... not so much.

There is also the unwritten rule of "we don't care what you do in your private time as long as you keep it private", so if your family or work finds out that you're LGBT or into cosplay or something else that's "not acceptable to society" then you'll be ostracised As long as you keep it hidden then people won't care.

 

[Kurarara]

I...never suffered from being a fujoshi. I always post about my favorite ships on my facebook page. I befriended all of my class and family there.
My friend knows about it, and I read yaoi at school on my tablet all the time.
I have rated some BL with a low score because of the lack of plot or because of how meaningless and shallow it was. I have equally rated many BL highly because of how great the plot and characters were.
I just consider this genre just like any other. Some are good, some are bad, some give a nice feeling and I love them but are average, and some are very deep.