High Tier Singles Semifinal - Shiraishi Kuranosuke vs Yamato Yuudai

[Kaoz]

Singles - High Tier
Semifinal​

Name	Shiraishi Kuranosuke
Grade	Middle School 3rd Year
Birthday	April 14th
Height	178 cm
Weight	66 kg
Handedness	Left
Playstyle	All Rounder

VERSUS​

Name	Yamato Yuudai
Grade	High School 2nd Year
Birthday	August 8th
Height	182 cm
Weight	68 kg
Handedness	Right
Playstyle	Counter Puncher

Serve order: Yamato -> Shiraishi


This round ends on Friday, August 23rd, at 8 PM GMT.

Have fun discussing.

 

[Ninomiya]

Quite simply, Yamato was going toe-to-toe with Nationals!Tezuka. It was only TPhantom+Hyakku Ren as a combo (iirc) which made the difference between Nationals!Tezuka being better than him.
I mean, Yamato had Tezuka of all people taking silly swipes at nothing in the air.
Currently this is in Yamato's favour. Shiraishi hasn't really improved since Nationals. All he's done is lift a weight off.

 

[floman]

I mean, Yamato had Tezuka of all people taking silly swipes at nothing in the air.

That's because of Tezuka's natural ability to predict where the ball is going to be hit. The crowd members even mentioned that Tezuka wasn't hitting anywhere close to the ball (meaning that they could see the real ball).

The only reason Yamato pushed Tezuka was because he was the perfect opponent for Tezuka. In Yamato's stats he has a two in every category. Irie even refers to him as that bum.

Shiraishi is one of the best players in the series, but in the manga it is mentioned that it is solely based on hard work. Since he does not naturally predict where the ball is going to be he will easily defeat Yamato.

 

[Ninomiya]

That's because of Tezuka's natural ability to predict where the ball is going to be hit. The crowd members even mentioned that Tezuka wasn't hitting anywhere close to the ball (meaning that they could see the real ball).

The only reason Yamato pushed Tezuka was because he was the perfect opponent for Tezuka. In Yamato's stats he has a two in every category. Irie even refers to him as that bum.

Where did it ever say this though? "Tezuka's natural ability"? He's never been one of the guys with a hack natural ability in the series.
The reason the crowd saw it is because the move only works against the opponent and nobody else.
Just like Akazawa Yoshiro's Blur Ball. Only the opponent is effected.

It never said that the GUYU only works because Tezuka predicts where the ball will go.

Spoiler

Sorry but it never once said that GUYU only worked because the opponent was Tezuka.
It worked because Tezuka does what all good tennis players do. At no point was GUYU said to be a Tezuka exclusive move.

 

[floman]

It never said that the GUYU only works because Tezuka predicts where the ball will go.

http://mangafox.me/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v04/c036/1.html

"You've been predicting the strength and course of my shots and watching things such as movements to predict what your next course of action will be."

(The natural part must have come from the anime because I'm sure I have heard it before, sorry in my defense I'm new)

All GUYU is, is deciding the course of the shot at the last possible instant. Since Tezuka has already decided what side he thinks it will reach, he follows the phantom ball. Shiraishi will be able to keep up with the ball without falling for the trick of the phantom ball because he will not predict its course.

 

[Ninomiya]

All GUYU is, is deciding the course of the shot at the last possible instant. Since Tezuka has already decided what side he thinks it will reach, he follows the phantom ball. Shiraishi will be able to keep up with the ball without falling for the trick of the phantom ball because he will not predict its course.

Fair enough, and yeah it was the anime that did that.
But why wouldn't Shiraishi predict its course? Shiraishi is a good player. Irie said "who new Yamato had been hiding such a technique".
This means its a technique that is a general move and not something that is exclusive to Tezuka.
If Irie values a move that way it can't be something useless that it works on one player who Yamato already knew was going to Germany.
The former Seigaku captain isn't an idiot.

Shiraishi was predicting shots when he played Fuji. He predicted the Triple Counter before he saw it, then it bit him back as he incorrectly predicted the Upgraded triple counter.
Shiraishi is absolutely susceptible to GUYU.
The question is how many games til he overcomes it.

 

[Phantron]

Yamato's existence is kind of a contradiction. We see that he has a stat of 2 on everything, but it also says his full power is hard to gauge. Well the only other two persons who have powers that cannot be easily gauged are Oni and Byodouin. Besides, how would Yamato's games against say, court 4 work? If he plays like a guy with all 2s in his stats he'd get crushed, but if he can actually beat a guy on court 4 then it'd be obvious his stats is above 2 across the board, so does he just never play a game after he got to court 3 somehow?

By the way Yamato wasn't playing toe to toe without Tezuka without GUYU. He was getting crushed which is why he had to use GUYU. Based on the manga, it'd appear GUYU only works on people who are extremely sure about their predicative abilities. After all, the second door is pretty much just an extension of data tennis. In fact, Tezuka's predicative abilities can only work if he is 100% sure of his predictions. It'd be the same as say when Inui played Yanagi and Inui said like '90% chance to serve to side' but Yanagi served to the middle instead and caught him off guard, except in Tezuka's case it's implied he is 100% sure of his prediction so he doesn't even think of the possibility his prediction can be wrong, which is why GUYU is devastating on him. For any normal person, since they're never 100% sure of their prediction to begin with, they'd be less affected by GUYU.

Of course there's also the fact that despite claiming he's going to retire after playing Tezuka, his name was on the list of the guys who are going to play the 1st stringers and, in particular, the G10. In fact I don't think any other guy from the former court 3 was scheduled to play the G10, so not counting Irie, he's apparently a lot stronger than the rest of the 3rd court for some inexplicable reason.

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ----------

Actually, after thinking about this some more, there are 7 guys in court 1 including Tokugawa (Tanegashima obviously can't play 1st string because he's 1st string) plus Irie and Oni, so that means Yamato is the strongest high schooler that isn't on the 1st court since he's part of the 10 guys playing the G10 originally.

 

[Ninomiya]

By the way Yamato wasn't playing toe to toe without Tezuka without GUYU. He was getting crushed which is why he had to use GUYU.

Nobody said he was. Of course it was including GUYU.

Based on the manga, it'd appear GUYU only works on people who are extremely sure about their predicative abilities. After all, the second door is pretty much just an extension of data tennis. In fact, Tezuka's predicative abilities can only work if he is 100% sure of his predictions. It'd be the same as say when Inui played Yanagi and Inui said like '90% chance to serve to side' but Yanagi served to the middle instead and caught him off guard, except in Tezuka's case it's implied he is 100% sure of his prediction so he doesn't even think of the possibility his prediction can be wrong, which is why GUYU is devastating on him. For any normal person, since they're never 100% sure of their prediction to begin with, they'd be less affected by GUYU.

All this theory but the conclusion is off.
Why is it that only Tezuka is 100% sure of where his prediction will land?
There is literally NOTHING to assume that he is the only guy in the series who is 100% sure of his own prediction. There's no logic to assume Shiraishi is a man unsure of his prediction although he was shown putting full confidence into his predictions against Fuji.

 

[Phantron]

There's a difference between sure and 100% sure. Since Tezuka has Saiki it's implied not only is he sure of his current prediction he's also sure of his prediction for the next X rallies. He's presumably already moving to the ball where he thinks it's going to be so any way to throw him off is devastating. In everyone else's case it'd just be like if you think they're going to lob but they didn't, sure that'd make you surprised but it's not insurmountable. The question is then what is Yamato's stat level supposed to be. According to the list stat it's all 2s, and I don't buy the explanation that the coaches somehow can't see his true power because that'd mean he's on par with Oni and Byodouin. I mean their scale can quantify a guy like Irie (who has 6/6/7 in 3 stats) but apparently they can't figure out Yamato? A guy with all 2s in stats isn't going to be able to beat Shiraishi even if he's managed to surprise him because the base stat is too great.

Of course if you base it off the eventualy roster against 1st stringers, then Yamato ought to be the strongest guy on the former court 3 not counting Irie since none of the other former court 3 guys was picked to play the G10. Then again, Yamato was supposed to have retired after playing Tezuka, so the whole thing makes very little sense to begin with. I'm guessing originally Yamato might have never actually played any games because he's waiting for Tezuka (because he says he's goign to quit tennis after that game) so he's saving his strength for the game against Tezuka, and the level he played against Tezuka is not supposed to be something he can duplicate again, except he decided to unretire and was even selected to play the G10 in the round-robin.

 

[Hardy]

There's a difference between sure and 100% sure.

Not really. Is there a difference between better and.. more better? (yeah that the latter is wrong...)

Since Tezuka has Saiki it's implied not only is he sure of his current prediction he's also sure of his prediction for the next X rallies. He's presumably already moving to the ball where he thinks it's going to be so any way to throw him off is devastating.

But Tezuka didn't use Saiki at all ...

Any high level player kinda predicts where the ball will go (Shiraishi returning Fuji's dissapearing serve is a clear example imo).

 

[-Ken-]

Of course everyone predict where the ball will go. Even some mid tier really show the ability to do it with Tornado Snake. You swing at where you think the ball will spin to. I think it really doesn't work only against low tier, and Yamato was Singles 2 in court 3 without it anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Yamato also had a hidden tech that destroy his arm when he used it. Of course, we never saw that tech. But he for sure have it.

 

[Kaoz]

The coaches figured out Yamato's stats perfectly fine, otherwise they'd probably have ?s there instead of 2s. The memo on his sheet says that he reached 3rd court despite those stats and that's what's weird. That doesn't necessarily mean that his stats are wrong, but rather that he's hiding something (e.g. GUYU given that nobody knew he was even using a special move until he explained it).

 

[Phantron]

The coaches figured out Yamato's stats perfectly fine, otherwise they'd probably have ?s there instead of 2s. The memo on his sheet says that he reached 3rd court despite those stats and that's what's weird. That doesn't necessarily mean that his stats are wrong, but rather that he's hiding something (e.g. GUYU given that nobody knew he was even using a special move until he explained it).

In that case he'd be totally spanked whenever he plays anyone else because there's no way a guy with stat of all 2s could possibly stand up to even a court 4 guy. I'm pretty sure he never used GUYU before, otherwise someone like Irie wouldn't be surprised. The explanation is not really necessary since in POT we know people can easily figure out things they should have no possible way of figuring out. I mean Irie somehow figured out Atobe has x-ray visions in the middle of the fight. If he can figure that kind of stuff up he surely can figure out GUYU, so the fact he doesn't know what GUYU does implies he hasn't seen it before.

I guess you can say he was saving his strength for the game against Tezuka since that was supposed to be his last game. From what I can gather his arm isn't supposed to be able to hold up much longer which is why he wanted to play Tezuka one last time before he retire, until he decided to un-retire anyway.

 

[Kaoz]

GUYU was just an example. He might have other abilities against other player types that just look like normal shots and the opponent playing badly, but are actually handicapping them in some way. In fact, couldn't Irie's statement that Yamato is "a bundle of surprises" be interpreted just like that (in other words, Irie was surprised by him before already and GUYU wasn't the first time Yamato pulled some trick)?

As for Irie knowing what Atobe did, if you consider that he can see the world of ice as well and, following that, view Understanding as another (high) level of Insight, it's not too weird that he figured out what happened, is it?

Either way, as for the match at hand, how about this:
When Yamato hit GUYU, from what we've seen the fake ball went to one side whereas the real one ended up somewhere in the middle. Now while it's impossible to cover both balls from the baseline, wouldn't it be different if Shiraishi was at the net instead? Since the area he would have to cover is much smaller, couldn't he use a movement like the one he returned Fuji's disappearing serve with?

 

[floman]

Now while it's impossible to cover both balls from the baseline, wouldn't it be different if Shiraishi was at the net instead? Since the area he would have to cover is much smaller, couldn't he use a movement like the one he returned Fuji's disappearing serve with?

I really didn't think GUYU was that good but you guys have convinced me that it will work on Shiraishi.

Now to the argument of whether Shiraishi can return it. Shiraishi specializes in reading his opponents before the matches and being ready to counter their special moves. I think just like he was able to easily seal the triple counters he will easily seal GUYU. ( maybe with the move as suggested in the quote)

But to originally get to the third court like was mentioned in another comment he would have to have more tricks. Shiraishi is not as good at playing against opponents who are revealing their techniques for the first time in match (Fuji's new triple counters and the fifth counter).

If Yamato has more tricks on the same level as GUYU, he may be able to make it a very close match, as it will take time for Shiraishi to adjust to the new playing style. But in the end I still think he will adjust and take the match (just as with the fifth counter).

Unlike Fuji though, Yamato has reached his limit and will most likely not evolve to create a new trick/ counter (like the sixth counter that didn't go in).

 

[Hardy]

GUYU was just an example. He might have other abilities against other player types that just look like normal shots and the opponent playing badly, but are actually handicapping them in some way. In fact, couldn't Irie's statement that Yamato is "a bundle of surprises" be interpreted just like that (in other words, Irie was surprised by him before already and GUYU wasn't the first time Yamato pulled some trick)?

As for Irie knowing what Atobe did, if you consider that he can see the world of ice as well and, following that, view Understanding as another (high) level of Insight, it's not too weird that he figured out what happened, is it?

Either way, as for the match at hand, how about this:
When Yamato hit GUYU, from what we've seen the fake ball went to one side whereas the real one ended up somewhere in the middle. Now while it's impossible to cover both balls from the baseline, wouldn't it be different if Shiraishi was at the net instead? Since the area he would have to cover is much smaller, couldn't he use a movement like the one he returned Fuji's disappearing serve with?

Why didn't Tezuka do that to win the match 6-0 without getting TnK?

This is like Phantrom saying that "if you stay behind the baseline, AK won't work"... real life logic doesn't work here

 

[Kaoz]

Unlike Fuji though, Yamato has reached his limit and will most likely not evolve to create a new trick/ counter (like the sixth counter that didn't go in).

That wasn't the sixth counter, that was Hakuryuu.

Why didn't Tezuka do that to win the match 6-0 without getting TnK?

This is like Phantrom saying that "if you stay behind the baseline, AK won't work"... real life logic doesn't work here

Because Tezuka and Shiraishi have different skillsets? I wouldn't expect Tezuka to return Fuji's serve the same way Shiraishi did either. Shiraishi's movement is absolutely perfect whereas Tezuka's isn't.

 

[Hardy]

If that was the case, then Shiraishi > anyone as he would find a counter to everything inmediatly...

 

[Kaoz]

That's complete nonsense. I actually suggested a doable possibility for him to return GUYU based on what we've seen him do already, unlike certain other people in the previous round with "Oh he'll break ODS somehow". I also never claimed he'd be able to do it right away, maybe he'd need a few games, but I don't see why you'd discard it completely.

 

[floman]

If that was the case, then Shiraishi > anyone as he would find a counter to everything immediately...

Shiraishi is good at finding counters for things he has already seen and he will plan out the counter ahead of time. You could argue GUYU is so good it cannot be countered but I really think Kaoz gave a valid way to hit it back. If someone reveals a new technique in the match he has trouble adapting to it but can do so (the flower, the new counters, and the fifth counter).

Also really I thought it was Fuji's test of the 6th counter because it fell before Shiraishi could say Hakuryuu.