A Fateful Encounter

[Nii]

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--- Double Post Merged, Jul 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 23, 2022 ---

You say this but then we see Saber Alter crushing Hercules. It was embarrassing... Or does Illya have a weak mana pool too? I guess there is something like a Mana Pool tier list?

I don't think there's a tier list lol. And it's true that Saber Alter more or less crushed Hercules, but this was to show that she finally became the ultimate powerhouse she was supposed to be. Both in the Fate and the UBW route she really struggled against Heracles and couldn't really win just on her own, so this is supposed to be a contrast to show "Saber's finally become the real deal boys". She's almost unstoppable at this point, Medusa too could have never won if not for Shirou's help.

As for Illya, I don't think she has a small mana pool. IIRC the issue is more with her small homunculus body, because when she summoned him even Heracles moving put a massive strain on her body (and she was in constant, strong pain). I thiiink the UBW anime shows this too? But just one small scene there, so easy to forget. By the time the actual War starts she has no problem controlling him, but it's probably possible that a strong adult magus with a big mana pool could pull out his strength a bit more (just theory, though).

So even when he is using all these swords via UBW his body takes damage. Initially when he got Archer's arm in HF I thought there would be no issues since they are the same. It applies to Bone of my Sword Archer as well?

Archer/Heroic Spirit Emiya is a Servant, that's an entirely different entity from a normal human being, even if Shirou is his younger self. It's not something you're supposed to do at all, because the knowledge/experience/mana etc. from that part flows into your body and corrodes it (+ your mind). That's why Kirei used that Shroud around his arm, he would go insane and die without it. It's only thanks to Shirou being the same person that it works/is possible for some time at all.

And you mean if Archer is hurt by these projections too? No he isn't, it doesn't matter for a Servant (but he also can't replicate Ea).

So he is an immortal living puppet at the end of HF? No flesh and blood etc?

No, IIRC it basically becomes a real flesh and blood body, so he'll eventually die. Only difference is that he can't function as a mage anymore, and generally has a weak body, so he's basically forced to live a "normal" life now. Which might just be a blessing for someone like Shirou.

 

[Jammin]

How much blackmail material do I need to find to make you read the Danmachi novels @Nii?

Seeing the passion and thought you put into your thoughts on Fate characters list hosting made me want to see you compare contrast the two mythologically linked fantasy series so very much.

Is it like a "moderate tax evasion" situation? Or a "frame for setting puppies on fire" situation?

 

[Nii]

How much blackmail material do I need to find to make you read the Danmachi novels @Nii?

Seeing the passion and thought you put into your thoughts on Fate characters list hosting made me want to see you compare contrast the two mythologically linked fantasy series so very much.

Is it like a "moderate tax evasion" situation? Or a "frame for setting puppies on fire" situation?

You would need to try very hard I think... Don't get me wrong, I enjoy DanMachi, but I've liked what we see in later seasons less. Seaon 4 seems off to a good start compared to a very rough-looking S3, but I still don't feel the wow factor or intense curiosity (as I felt with Fate since the beginning), so for me to read the LN a lot would need to happen lol. I'm not that much of an LN reader in general, the only thing I've read is one Index novel while in Japan (that was to refresh my memory before the new season... and we know how that turned out), and Mushoku Tensei since the beginning of 2021. Which I really enjoy a lot, but I think you know that much.

Not sure what exactly you mean with those situations tbh, your way to blackmail me?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 29, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 29, 2022 ---

And that reminds me!

@Demonspeed You read the whole Mushoku Tensei Web novel, right? I'm almost done with volume 17, and it was awesome.

Spoiler: Mushoku LN Spoilers

First Ariel cornering Grabel and Darius, then Reida appearing out of nowhere with that hax technique, then Orsted arriving on the scene, then them rushing after Darius and barely avoid getting killed versus Auber. And then the icing on the cake with Luke apparently going mad Loved that scene where Ariel goes "I am your Princess." and Luke breaks down, such a good moment. I could even understand where Luke's coming from with mistrusting Orsted, feel like he still keeps a number of secrets from Rudeus.

I thought all of that was peak fiction, as people like to call it nowadays Ariel became a waaaay more interesting for me, definitely a stand-out character in this volume. Also Perugius just sitting on his chair watching everything unfold and grinning like a chad, what a guy

Story really has been on a roll since the Man-God's reveal as the big evil, can't wait to see where the story goes next. Probably will finish the Volume 17 today or tomorrow xD

 

[Demonspeed]

Yes MT is ridiculously good. This is definitely the Isekai to read IMO.

How much blackmail material do I need to find to make you read the Danmachi novels @Nii?

Seeing the passion and thought you put into your thoughts on Fate characters list hosting made me want to see you compare contrast the two mythologically linked fantasy series so very much.

Is it like a "moderate tax evasion" situation? Or a "frame for setting puppies on fire" situation?

You made me remember that I wanted to ask questions about it. I am a bit behind LN-wise and I wanted to ask you if you are able to keep up? It has become such a prolific multimedia franchise. With the mobile games with canon stories in and things that haven't been revealed in the LNs yet, tons of side stories and so on.

Omori doesn't stop.

 

[Jammin]

You would need to try very hard I think... Don't get me wrong, I enjoy DanMachi, but I've liked what we see in later seasons less. Seaon 4 seems off to a good start compared to a very rough-looking S3, but I still don't feel the wow factor or intense curiosity (as I felt with Fate since the beginning), so for me to read the LN a lot would need to happen lol. I'm not that much of an LN reader in general, the only thing I've read is one Index novel while in Japan (that was to refresh my memory before the new season... and we know how that turned out), and Mushoku Tensei since the beginning of 2021. Which I really enjoy a lot, but I think you know that much.

Not sure what exactly you mean with those situations tbh, your way to blackmail me?

That's about what I figured. And indeed. I assume it would take something extraordinary to get you to dive in. Just trying to figure out how much so.

The thing about Danmachi is that the anime and a LN are almost not comparable. I like the anime. But it's like Studio Deen Fate/Stay versus like VN Fate Stay. The anime is better than Studio Deen's Fate, naturally, but that's how different the experience is. Which largely comes down to the novels heavy emphasis on internal monologues and multiple perspectives. And a generally less shounen-y approach in a lot of ways. Like it sounds like your watching Season 4. Part of the volume it's based on is from the predatory monster's inhuman perspective.

All of that being said, I do understand how hard a sell it is to read some 15-ish volume LN. Especially one that happens to be named "Is it Wrong to Pick up Girls in a Dungeon?". But I do assure you that it's good enough to justify the fact that I once walked into a Barnes & Noble and asked in a load voice with a grin on my face... "Do you have Is it Wrong to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon Volume 13 in stock?". Got a lot of judgemental looks from old ladies that day. I would highly recommend the experience.

Anyway, if you ever do. I would absolutely love to hear your thoughts on sort of the inverted approach to Fate's when it comes to integrating mythology into storytelling. In Fate it's the mortals as the masters and the heroes and gods as servants. In Damnachi it's the gods as the masters and mortals as the servants more or less.

You made me remember that I wanted to ask questions about it. I am a bit behind LN-wise and I wanted to ask you if you are able to keep up? It has become such a prolific multimedia franchise. With the mobile games with canon stories in and things that haven't been revealed in the LNs yet, tons of side stories and so on.

Omori doesn't stop.

Absolutely. I have the full set of light novels sitting proudly on my bookshelf next to Overlord. I find them pretty rereadable. I don't think anything he's done is quite up to Danmachi's standard though. He's still a great writer but nothing to like the level Danmachi gets to. At least not in what I've read.

Overlord not so much, in terms of readability, but it's on the shelf because those hardcover LNs are a work of art.

 

[Demonspeed]

Absolutely. I have the full set of light novels sitting proudly on my bookshelf next to Overlord. I find them pretty rereadable. I don't think anything he's done is quite up to Danmachi's standard though. He's still a great writer but nothing to like the level Danmachi gets to. At least not in what I've read.

Overlord not so much, in terms of readability, but it's on the shelf because those hardcover LNs are a work of art.

Even with all the fan translated Side Stories and lore dropped in Memoria Freese?

 

[Jammin]

Even with all the fan translated Side Stories and lore dropped in Memoria Freese?

I love the lore. All the gods and everything that's going on there but where I really get blown away is Omori's writing. In Danmachi in particular he manages to write things in a way that's so emotionally "raw". When he writes a "sad part" like Lillies story in the book it's emotionally devastating, at least for me.

Which is no accident. As he's released volumes he's continually bests his previous best work. Like the current "best volume" is volume 14, which this season may or may not get into. And the reason it is that was because he scrapped the story multiple times until it "felt right", it was like 400 pages too. He really works to get the quality level to where it is. Which is another great thing about these novels. They have an almost shockly honest view into what he thinks of the books he writes and where the influences come from in them in the form of his afterword.

 

[Nii]

Yes MT is ridiculously good. This is definitely the Isekai to read IMO.



You made me remember that I wanted to ask questions about it. I am a bit behind LN-wise and I wanted to ask you if you are able to keep up? It has become such a prolific multimedia franchise. With the mobile games with canon stories in and things that haven't been revealed in the LNs yet, tons of side stories and so on.

Omori doesn't stop.

Nothing to say about the things I wrote? btw, what would you say, is the content getting better, staying the same, or a bit of both depending on the volume?

That's about what I figured. And indeed. I assume it would take something extraordinary to get you to dive in. Just trying to figure out how much so.

The thing about Danmachi is that the anime and a LN are almost not comparable. I like the anime. But it's like Studio Deen Fate/Stay versus like VN Fate Stay. The anime is better than Studio Deen's Fate, naturally, but that's how different the experience is. Which largely comes down to the novels heavy emphasis on internal monologues and multiple perspectives. And a generally less shounen-y approach in a lot of ways. Like it sounds like your watching Season 4. Part of the volume it's based on is from the predatory monster's inhuman perspective.

All of that being said, I do understand how hard a sell it is to read some 15-ish volume LN. Especially one that happens to be named "Is it Wrong to Pick up Girls in a Dungeon?". But I do assure you that it's good enough to justify the fact that I once walked into a Barnes & Noble and asked in a load voice with a grin on my face... "Do you have Is it Wrong to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon Volume 13 in stock?". Got a lot of judgemental looks from old ladies that day. I would highly recommend the experience.

Anyway, if you ever do. I would absolutely love to hear your thoughts on sort of the inverted approach to Fate's when it comes to integrating mythology into storytelling. In Fate it's the mortals as the masters and the heroes and gods as servants. In Damnachi it's the gods as the masters and mortals as the servants more or less.

Well that's a good and understandable comparison for me I don't even doubt that the LN is a lot better, think it's actually rare for an anime to surpass the source material or be on the same level, especially with LNs and VNs. But for me to read the LN it would need to have a world or characters I'm really interested in, and that I don't really am. It's a fine show to watch, but I lack the emotional investment I guess, so I feel no incentive to pick up the LN. It's probably no different from me telling you to pick up the Mushoku Tensei LNs, from what I know you thought the show was okay, but that's about it.

There's other stuff like Overlord where I would definitely be tempted to pick up the LNs because I already have a certain level of interest and can easily imagine the LN being better in a lot of places. That world and its characters interest me much more, so yeah. Not saying I plan to read that, but compared to Danmachi it's definitely something that could happen. Heard the author plans to finish the story with the next two LNs though, so will probably wait and hear from others if the he sticks the landing.

And that's sound like a fascinating story, you're a brave man Jam Old ladies can be a force to be reckoned with lol

 

[Jammin]

Well that's a good and understandable comparison for me I don't even doubt that the LN is a lot better, think it's actually rare for an anime to surpass the source material or be on the same level, especially with LNs and VNs. But for me to read the LN it would need to have a world or characters I'm really interested in, and that I don't really am. It's a fine show to watch, but I lack the emotional investment I guess, so I feel no incentive to pick up the LN. It's probably no different from me telling you to pick up the Mushoku Tensei LNs, from what I know you thought the show was okay, but that's about it.

There's other stuff like Overlord where I would definitely be tempted to pick up the LNs because I already have a certain level of interest and can easily imagine the LN being better in a lot of places. That world and its characters interest me much more, so yeah. Not saying I plan to read that, but compared to Danmachi it's definitely something that could happen. Heard the author plans to finish the story with the next two LNs though, so will probably wait and hear from others if the he sticks the landing.

And that's sound like a fascinating story, you're a brave man Jam Old ladies can be a force to be reckoned with lol

As I thought.

And Mushoku Tensei probably isn't the best example because I was a WN reader. I like the show and novel a great deal. Probably don't know it like you do but I feel like I know it reasonably well. That's the main barrier to me reading the LN. It would be the 3rd version of the story I've jumped in on.

I'm not really expecting you to ever read Danmachi, if I'm being honest about it. Just want you to know that I would love to hear your thoughts on it in the alternate universe where that would happen. I wouldn't even call this a "recommendation" either as even if you did I feel like I couldn't guarantee you'd love it the way I do. As you can probably tell from the anime adaptation it's very much playing in the "coming of age heroic fantasy" waters. Even if the presentation and depth is different the substance is largely the same. My impression of your tastes is that's not really what your looking for in a series these days.

Still sort of shocked you, and so many others, like Overlord as much as you do. No idea what sort of ending it's going to have. It doesn't feel like it should end in two volumes but if it does it does. And if reading long running series over the years has taught me anything it's that it's always better for a series to end too soon than it is for it to end too late. I call it "The Naruto Rule"

And humiliation builds character.

 

[Demonspeed]

Nothing to say about the things I wrote? btw, what would you say, is the content getting better, staying the same, or a bit of both depending on the volume?



Well that's a good and understandable comparison for me I don't even doubt that the LN is a lot better, think it's actually rare for an anime to surpass the source material or be on the same level, especially with LNs and VNs. But for me to read the LN it would need to have a world or characters I'm really interested in, and that I don't really am. It's a fine show to watch, but I lack the emotional investment I guess, so I feel no incentive to pick up the LN. It's probably no different from me telling you to pick up the Mushoku Tensei LNs, from what I know you thought the show was okay, but that's about it.

There's other stuff like Overlord where I would definitely be tempted to pick up the LNs because I already have a certain level of interest and can easily imagine the LN being better in a lot of places. That world and its characters interest me much more, so yeah. Not saying I plan to read that, but compared to Danmachi it's definitely something that could happen. Heard the author plans to finish the story with the next two LNs though, so will probably wait and hear from others if the he sticks the landing.

And that's sound like a fascinating story, you're a brave man Jam Old ladies can be a force to be reckoned with lol

I didn't talk much about this part because it's been years since I read it. While I could never forget certain moments for some others. I do remember specific scenes that arc but I never cared much about Luke. I think in terms of entertainment the quality is going to stay similar. You will like it more depending on your interest regarding some characters, the mysteries of this world and some reveals.

Rifujin has a lot more in store regarding the MT world. In fact it's a prequel for a bigger story.

 

[Nii]

As I thought.

And Mushoku Tensei probably isn't the best example because I was a WN reader. I like the show and novel a great deal. Probably don't know it like you do but I feel like I know it reasonably well. That's the main barrier to me reading the LN. It would be the 3rd version of the story I've jumped in on.

I'm not really expecting you to ever read Danmachi, if I'm being honest about it. Just want you to know that I would love to hear your thoughts on it in the alternate universe where that would happen. I wouldn't even call this a "recommendation" either as even if you did I feel like I couldn't guarantee you'd love it the way I do. As you can probably tell from the anime adaptation it's very much playing in the "coming of age heroic fantasy" waters. Even if the presentation and depth is different the substance is largely the same. My impression of your tastes is that's not really what your looking for in a series these days.

Still sort of shocked you, and so many others, like Overlord as much as you do. No idea what sort of ending it's going to have. It doesn't feel like it should end in two volumes but if it does it does. And if reading long running series over the years has taught me anything it's that it's always better for a series to end too soon than it is for it to end too late. I call it "The Naruto Rule"

And humiliation builds character.

Oh you do? Never got the impression you're a big fan of Mushoku. And if you read the whole WN you definitely know more than me, I'm always waiting for the next official english LN release (because with LNs I reeeaaally prefer reading them physically). Understandable that you won't pick up the LN if you know the whole story already, there's not too many additions in the LN from what I've heard.

About Danmachi, I think it's just a bit too vanilla for me. As you said, it feels like a very straight coming of age heroic fantasy, and stuff like that needs to really impress me or I'm just not that interested. Danmachi is hardly ever bad, but hardly ever great for me. A fine show you could say, with good moments, but overall it feels too generic to me. None of the characters impress me either, so that's prolly part of the problem. I appreciate the fact you wanna hear my thoughts, though, I really do

About Overlord, I guess it's the fact that you're following a villain and not a hero. The fact that Ainz himself is actually kind of a "good guy" being dragged into all this makes it more interesting. It treats a fine line between making evil characters likeable while following them on their journey, so it's just a bit more refreshing to many people I guess.
And I've heard people say there's no way the author can properly end the story in two volumes, but as you said, often it's better to end your story early on that drag it out for too long lol.

I didn't talk much about this part because it's been years since I read it. While I could never forget certain moments for some others. I do remember specific scenes that arc but I never cared much about Luke. I think in terms of entertainment the quality is going to stay similar. You will like it more depending on your interest regarding some characters, the mysteries of this world and some reveals.

Rifujin has a lot more in store regarding the MT world. In fact it's a prequel for a bigger story.

Oh, that's awesome news! Think MT has a pretty strong cast all things considered. Can't say I'm the biggest fan of Rudeus having his own harem (Sylphie, Roxy, Eris, and I hope he won't add another one lol), but besides Roxy which felt a bit forced, the other two kind of happened naturally and it makes sense in the context of the world. Rifujin is probably best at worldbuilding, it's always cool to find out more about the world. Some stuff feels a bit too tropey, like

Spoiler

Orsted apparently being a time traveler? Might just be because nowadays you have way too many stories that involve time travel though

I'm curious Demon, who are your favorite chars? Anyone among them that has yet to be introduced or hasn't gotten any focus yet?

Spoiler

Like his kids, who are obviously going to play a major role at some point, I assume

If I had to name my favs atm, it would be Ruijerd, Eris, Ariel, Ghislaine, Orsted... but there are other characters with potential too, like Norn, or characters who are just hilarious fun like Zanoba Think the only char I'm not too fond of atm is Aisha, her behavior regarding Rudeus is kinda weird and creepy. Never liked that, but I almost feel it's gonna get worse once she gets older...

Oh and I can't say I care much about Luke either, but it was a strong moment for me nevertheless.

 

[Demonspeed]

It's funny to read what you said about Rudy's love interests considering what was said about him and Roxy .

Zanoba is my favorite character . There is also Sylphie, Orsted, Roxy, Nanahoshi, Ruijerd, Rudy himself. I also really like the Rudy-Zanoba-Cliff trio.

Spoiler

About his kids there isn't too much ATM. I really like Sieg but it's kinda hard not to. Same way it's kinda hard not to hate another one.

 

[Jammin]

Yeah, Mushoku is quite good. But I sort of enjoy it's experimental nature a bit and with that you get some aspects that work and some that don't. Which is a big reason why you would probably HATE that authors lesser known other series but in a way it's "different" too though and I enjoy it for that.

Naturally, I don't have the reservations about the various harem things that I know you do. But I agree that it isn't the strongest element of the story. I always thought Eris was just clearly better than the others and with a harem element when you have that kind of imbalance it throws things off. The Roxy romance is so awkward, and not in a good way. And Sylfie was fine but too bog standard. Have to say I thought the story would have been better if he just went all in on Eris from the start.

I'm all about reading stories for interesting characters and character arcs. I can't get enough of those. From that perspective Rudy, Ruijerd, and Eris are really good.

 

[Nii]

It's funny to read what you said about Rudy's love interests considering what was said about him and Roxy .

Zanoba is my favorite character . There is also Sylphie, Orsted, Roxy, Nanahoshi, Ruijerd, Rudy himself. I also really like the Rudy-Zanoba-Cliff trio.

Spoiler

About his kids there isn't too much ATM. I really like Sieg but it's kinda hard not to. Same way it's kinda hard not to hate another one.

What do you mean? I mean I know Rudy was basically worshipping her as his goddess since day 1, but that Roxy just fell in love with him on sight later on is kinda weird. Dunno, not a big fan of the whole "I was your teacher when you were a little kid, but now that you're an adult I love you like a woman" and similar stuff like that. I guess it does happen in real life too, but it always strikes me as a bit iffy and I thought it wasn't done so well in MT.

And I assume this means Zanoba still has some important parts to play It's true the trio makes for some god bros, and I like how they feel like their own independent characters by this point and not just Rudy's appendage. I won't deny that back then it put a grin on my face when Rudy still was a lonely boy and heard Cliff and Elinalise have wild sex all the time

About the other chars, Nanahoshi is cool, Roxy I'm liking less and less tbh... not in the sense that I dislike her, but that I find her pretty boring (though tbh I was never a big Roxy fan to begin with). Hopefully she will become more than his cute, pregnant wife waiting for him at home.

Spoiler

Oh okay, kinda thought we would see them as adults and the story kiiiiinda resolved with the Man God and all, but you make it sound like it isn't... but don't answer me about that, I want to find out myself haha.

Yeah, Mushoku is quite good. But I sort of enjoy it's experimental nature a bit and with that you get some aspects that work and some that don't. Which is a big reason why you would probably HATE that authors lesser known other series but in a way it's "different" too though and I enjoy it for that.

Naturally, I don't have the reservations about the various harem things that I know you do. But I agree that it isn't the strongest element of the story. I always thought Eris was just clearly better than the others and with a harem element when you have that kind of imbalance it throws things off. The Roxy romance is so awkward, and not in a good way. And Sylfie was fine but too bog standard. Have to say I thought the story would have been better if he just went all in on Eris from the start.

I'm all about reading stories for interesting characters and character arcs. I can't get enough of those. From that perspective Rudy, Ruijerd, and Eris are really good.

Lol yeah I heard about that orc series and him partnering up for it with that rather famous ero mangaka Certainly not what I expected, but I get the impression that many authors want to try something really different once they're done with their first (long) work, like how Arakawa went with Silver Spoon after Fullmetal Alchemist. I'm okay with that, but yeah, the orc series doesn't look like something I would be into.
Curious though, which aspects do you not like regarding MT?

About the harem stuff, I'm not necessarily against it, but it very often strikes me as a bit too much of wish fulfilment. It's just not something I could normally see work, but I'm okay with it here bc of the medieval setting and all that. I've accepted it by now, but I can't deny I rolled my eyes at first.
Completely agreed about pretty much everything else you said regarding Eris, Roxy and Sylphie. Sylphie is perfectly fine in my book, but simply pales in comparison to Eris. And I prefer if the love interest is independent and strong too anyway, and isn't just your waifu to protect... which is kind of a problem with Sylphie and especially Roxy.

And it's rare for you to highlight male characters, so I guess MT made something right in that regard at least

 

[Jammin]

Lol yeah I heard about that orc series and him partnering up for it with that rather famous ero mangaka Certainly not what I expected, but I get the impression that many authors want to try something really different once they're done with their first (long) work, like how Arakawa went with Silver Spoon after Fullmetal Alchemist. I'm okay with that, but yeah, the orc series doesn't look like something I would be into.
Curious though, which aspects do you not like regarding MT?

About the harem stuff, I'm not necessarily against it, but it very often strikes me as a bit too much of wish fulfilment. It's just not something I could normally see work, but I'm okay with it here bc of the medieval setting and all that. I've accepted it by now, but I can't deny I rolled my eyes at first.
Completely agreed about pretty much everything else you said regarding Eris, Roxy and Sylphie. Sylphie is perfectly fine in my book, but simply pales in comparison to Eris. And I prefer if the love interest is independent and strong too anyway, and isn't just your waifu to protect... which is kind of a problem with Sylphie and especially Roxy.

I mean, the lewd elf curse is so...

And the loli-demon lord thing. There is a lot in MT and in my experience there are rough patches, as with all series really. Where it's so strong is where it sort of presents an non-idealized isekai. With characters who are not the most likable or extremely flawed and uses that as room for genuine character growth. The larger story I'm not as into when compared to that. Rudy's, Ruijerd, and Eris all have that in common. They all start as sort of horrible in different ways, which gives them that room for genuine growth and maturity. MT is very much a series that allows it's characters to make mistakes. Which is I think it's greatest strength.

And I think that's largely the reason Sylphie and Roxy aren't as good. Because they aren't as flawed. Sylphie is just flat nice and good. Where Roxy is largely unchanging.

And it's rare for you to highlight male characters, so I guess MT made something right in that regard at least

Ouch. I'm not that bad am I?

I guess, I don't tend to end up posting about them as much but I swear I'm not that tilted. Bell Cranel, Momonga, Subaru last ReZero season. And I do like Emiya, just not Edg-miya. I admit though a problem I have a lot of times with anime MCs is that they tend not to be challenged in the ways I think you need to in order to be a great character.

Shounen authors in particular I think really avoid, with their main characters in particular, personality flaws. Which limits a lot of them for me since, without a flaw they don't have anything to overcome. The progression is what makes a great character arc "IE Moedred". So I guess that does limit a lot of them in my eyes.

 

[Nii]

I mean, the lewd elf curse is so...

And the loli-demon lord thing. There is a lot in MT and in my experience there are rough patches, as with all series really. Where it's so strong is where it sort of presents an non-idealized isekai. With characters who are not the most likable or extremely flawed and uses that as room for genuine character growth. The larger story I'm not as into when compared to that. Rudy's, Ruijerd, and Eris all have that in common. They all start as sort of horrible in different ways, which gives them that room for genuine growth and maturity. MT is very much a series that allows it's characters to make mistakes. Which is I think it's greatest strength.

And I think that's largely the reason Sylphie and Roxy aren't as good. Because they aren't as flawed. Sylphie is just flat nice and good. Where Roxy is largely unchanging.

Well I think it's better to just roll with Elinalise and her curse Can understand anyone rolling their eyes at this, but personally I'm just not taking it that seriously, so I think it's pretty fun(ny) in a way. As an avid supporter of mana transfer though, I'm kinda surprised that's what you're pointing out though

What exactly do you dislike about the loli demon lord? Don't have a strong opinion on Kishirika either way, but I can't think of what would make you dislike her off the top of my head.
Wholly agree about MT's strength, it's what makes the series stand out to me (though I do like the larger story too, I guess you can tell xD). The series actually takes the huge risk of having almost all characters be flawed to some extent, to the point where it's obviously making some people stop reading it, or not touching it at all. But for me that gives it a much more interesting and realistic touch than most other isekai. Re:Zero kindaaa goes in that direction too, but there it's a bit too much doom and gloom for me.

That's a good point about Sylphie and Roxy, yeah. They feel a lot more like the typical otaku pandering. It's not like they're perfect, but their flaws make people go more like "awww they're cute", so it's mostly standard fare with them. That, and I'm never a fan of characters that almost solely rely and focus on the MC. Eris does have this too to some extent, but she still feels like her own independent character

Ouch. I'm not that bad am I?

I guess, I don't tend to end up posting about them as much but I swear I'm not that tilted. Bell Cranel, Momonga, Subaru last ReZero season. And I do like Emiya, just not Edg-miya. I admit though a problem I have a lot of times with anime MCs is that they tend not to be challenged in the ways I think you need to in order to be a great character.

Shounen authors in particular I think really avoid, with their main characters in particular, personality flaws. Which limits a lot of them for me since, without a flaw they don't have anything to overcome. The progression is what makes a great character arc "IE Moedred". So I guess that does limit a lot of them in my eyes.

"He sits in my box next to voyager and the other male servants
Non-waifus just take up space in my chaldea"

Do I need to say anything more?

Ofc I realize gacha are a different story, but when someone repeatedly says that male servants are just a waste of space for him, it's easy to get the idea that you're not that big on guys in otaku media in general

And I mean it's not just about MCs, they're very much their own breed, but I've never seen you gushing about a male character at all, maybe just say a couple nice words at most if the topic does come up. Still, I'm not saying this to judge you or anything, people like who they like. There sure are way weirder tastes out their than being inclined towards women It's just something I noticed after talking to you many times.

You're right about shounen adventure MCs btw, I feel the same., though in my eyes this is even more of a problem in isekai besides a couple exceptions. Flawed characters almost always are more interesting, but also harder to write and also harder to make likeable, so I get that many creators prefer the safe/more easy approach.

 

[Jammin]

I guess I don't think of the Elinalise thing as particularly funny. Her and the demon lord are both sort of jokes off of tropes but fairly tasteless ones. Certainly beneath the quality of the rest of MT. I could point to more things like that, but you get the idea I think. MT is sort of written "without a filter", which I enjoy but there are quite a few "rough" bits in there that comes with the territory. And I'm fine with that.

Not sure I can agree on "realisim" because, to be honest, I don't think characters like Rudi are actually realistic in any sense. I would instead call it more of a "mature" take on the concept of an Isekai. The characters and themes it's exploring are much more mature that you'll find in other similar series. And I said this before, but for me really think the character that defines it is how characters are allowed to fail and make mistakes. Which creates more of a sense of depth in a character.

"He sits in my box next to voyager and the other male servants
Non-waifus just take up space in my chaldea"

Do I need to say anything more?

Ofc I realize gacha are a different story, but when someone repeatedly says that male servants are just a waste of space for him, it's easy to get the idea that you're not that big on guys in otaku media in general

And I mean it's not just about MCs, they're very much their own breed, but I've never seen you gushing about a male character at all, maybe just say a couple nice words at most if the topic does come up. Still, I'm not saying this to judge you or anything, people like who they like. There sure are way weirder tastes out their than being inclined towards women It's just something I noticed after talking to you many times.

You're right about shounen adventure MCs btw, I feel the same., though in my eyes this is even more of a problem in isekai besides a couple exceptions. Flawed characters almost always are more interesting, but also harder to write and also harder to make likeable, so I get that many creators prefer the safe/more easy approach.

I play waifu and husbando collector games the way they're meant to be played, I make no apologies for that.

I mean, I can see where you would get that idea but I do talk about male characters sometimes. Gintoki for example is a character I do hold up quite often as an example of what a great shounen character can be. My avatar is Kondo Isao for a reason. There are a litany of Gintama characters I could go on about. And your about to see me gush about a bunch of male characters, at least design wise, in the upcoming top 10. Also I used to moderate the Noblesse forum and that series was practically just one big bromantic sausage fest and I wrote like a hundred chapter reviews or something for it. So I've done a bit.

Recently I haven't done a lot of discussing of male characters because honestly there haven't been many good ones, at least not to my tastes. It sort of depends on what's out there. Bleach had a bunch of great ones. Naruto had a bunch of great ones. One Piece fans will be mad but it doesn't and never has. Black Clover doesn't. Boku no Hero doesn't. Boku no Hero Vigilantes was better. It just varies. From my recommendation list. Omniscient Reader and Love Advice from the Great Duke of Hell are both built around great male characters.

I may not trumpet them quite the same way I do with say waifu characters. But I love a good character regardless of gender. More what I look for is some depth and male characters in anime and manga tend to be intentionally thinner in that regard because they are meant to be either broadly relatable or a self insert of some type. Where the female characters can be built any which way because they're usually not trying to be either of those things.

I like the characters that aren't like you or me. Characters who, while I may be able to empathize with some aspect of them, are unique and interesting. In fact I actively don't want a self insert character or an every man. Like the good isekai or fantasy novels to me are the ones about borderline lunatics like Ainz, Rudi, or even Goblin Slayer. That's my character strike zone.

 

[Holt]

Hola @Nii !

I have a friend who wants to start reading manga. She asked for my recommendation on something to start with, preferably something funny. Any recommendations?

 

[Nii]

Hola @Nii !

I have a friend who wants to start reading manga. She asked for my recommendation on something to start with, preferably something funny. Any recommendations?

Hey @Holt : D

I don't think I'm the right guy to ask for comedy manga, haven't read many tbh. The only ones I could recommend are Sket Dance and Gintama, but both also have serious arcs sprinkled in here and there (which is a concept I really like. It's a unique experience when a comedy series suddenly turns almost completely serious). Comedy is something very subjective though, I feel, so it's quite hard to point to a series and say person x is going to laugh a lot, especially if you don't know that person at all, so no promises from my side

Or wait, I got a really funny series for you: Bleach

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2022, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2022 ---

I guess I don't think of the Elinalise thing as particularly funny. Her and the demon lord are both sort of jokes off of tropes but fairly tasteless ones. Certainly beneath the quality of the rest of MT. I could point to more things like that, but you get the idea I think. MT is sort of written "without a filter", which I enjoy but there are quite a few "rough" bits in there that comes with the territory. And I'm fine with that.

Not sure I can agree on "realisim" because, to be honest, I don't think characters like Rudi are actually realistic in any sense. I would instead call it more of a "mature" take on the concept of an Isekai. The characters and themes it's exploring are much more mature that you'll find in other similar series. And I said this before, but for me really think the character that defines it is how characters are allowed to fail and make mistakes. Which creates more of a sense of depth in a character.

Sure it's a bit tasteless, but I guess I just don't take it that seriously. Was it needed? Ofc not. Did I roll my eyes about the 10th "Elinalise is horny bc of her curse, she would totally be down for it haha" joke? Yes, I did. But it also offers some unique experiences and topics most (serious) works usually don't cover at all, so it's cool with me. MT isn't a series for everyone, but if you can accept or just roll with some of the more "problematic" stuff, it's a great experience in my eyes.

Wholly agreed about the second part. Except one thing, that Rudy isn't realistic. I think you're underestimating the level of degeneracy out there People have the weirdest kinks, people are very horny, and people don't care that much about what's morally right or wrong when it's accepted by society. Far from everyone ofc, but also not exactly a small number either.

I play waifu and husbando collector games the way they're meant to be played, I make no apologies for that.

I mean, I can see where you would get that idea but I do talk about male characters sometimes. Gintoki for example is a character I do hold up quite often as an example of what a great shounen character can be. My avatar is Kondo Isao for a reason. There are a litany of Gintama characters I could go on about. And your about to see me gush about a bunch of male characters, at least design wise, in the upcoming top 10. Also I used to moderate the Noblesse forum and that series was practically just one big bromantic sausage fest and I wrote like a hundred chapter reviews or something for it. So I've done a bit.

Recently I haven't done a lot of discussing of male characters because honestly there haven't been many good ones, at least not to my tastes. It sort of depends on what's out there. Bleach had a bunch of great ones. Naruto had a bunch of great ones. One Piece fans will be mad but it doesn't and never has. Black Clover doesn't. Boku no Hero doesn't. Boku no Hero Vigilantes was better. It just varies. From my recommendation list. Omniscient Reader and Love Advice from the Great Duke of Hell are both built around great male characters.

That's a fair way to look at it : D I'm not exactly playing FGO to collect my waifus, but that's why the majority is playing this game I guess.

And yeah, you bring up some good examples, I had kinda forgotten about you being a Noblesse mod at some point Personally I'm kinda done with manhwa and webtoon I think, Noblesse and ToG ended up disappointing me eventually, and stuff like the Breaker went down the same route. I might still read a Veritas continuation though :3 (which we will never get)

About not many good male characters, it all depends on what you read and watch. Not sure if the number of good female characters really is THAT much higher than males, but I agree that it happens more often because they don't have to be a generic self-insert isekai protagonist or similar archetypes, not to mention there simply is a very big majority of male otaku, so there will always be a greater number of (hot) female characters in general.

I'm not sure I entirely agree about the series you mentioned, but as you said, a lot comes down to what appeals to you specifically. And if we're talking about somewhat recent and ongoing shounen jump series, I think Jujutsu Kaisen has some good male characters

I may not trumpet them quite the same way I do with say waifu characters. But I love a good character regardless of gender. More what I look for is some depth and male characters in anime and manga tend to be intentionally thinner in that regard because they are meant to be either broadly relatable or a self insert of some type. Where the female characters can be built any which way because they're usually not trying to be either of those things.

I like the characters that aren't like you or me. Characters who, while I may be able to empathize with some aspect of them, are unique and interesting. In fact I actively don't want a self insert character or an every man. Like the good isekai or fantasy novels to me are the ones about borderline lunatics like Ainz, Rudi, or even Goblin Slayer. That's my character strike zone.

Not sure I agree about the first statement. If we're talking protagonists, especially in shounen series, then yes that's very often true, but there are many interesting male characters that aren't exactly thin. And what you state is a problem for many females characters too, who are copycats of each other, very samey and tropey with very similar traits. But ofc they're easier to like bc even when they're average or very similar to hundreds of other female chars out there, they're at least "cute" or "hot" or you just like their design. Pretty sure if a female otaku had written your post, she would say almost the same as you, just about female characters xD

I'm totally on board with the second part, those always are the most interesting characters Funnily enough it seems like the majority of fans dislikes and/or ridicules self-inserts, but they're too much of a staple at this point I assume.

And I apologize for only answering this now. This is what happens when you read a post while you're out and about or busy, and then it kinda slips your mind the next day

 

[Jammin]

I forgot I posed it so, so we're in the same boat in a way.

Umm, I mean, I disagree to some degree about male vs female characters at least in a broad sense. There are standouts here and there obviously but for the majority I really do think female characters in the manga I read tend to be better just as a result of the authors being willing to take more chances with them. I think a lot of the issues I have with male characters out there currently is that authors are more risk averse than ever with the characters they feel like they need people to like. When an author gets something that they think works they just sort of freeze.

Which is a way MT really stands out among everything else. It began as a WN where I think it's easier to take those chances. And so you get the kind of evolving character arc. Which a lot of manga don't even try to do. And if they do it, they do it with female characters.

Like in Jujutsu Kaisen from what I read, I dropped it a while ago, Nobara was the most fun character and Maki's the one with the interesting character arc. Yuuji is sort of just a shounen protagonist. Not a bad one but he is what he is. Gojo was super cool but kinda shallow. Megumi was probably the best male character but he's not amazing either since he doesn't quite have the full degree of depth. Who else?

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2022, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2022 ---

Actually I take that back. I don't want to short change Todo. He's pretty good. He doesn't really have an arc but he's pretty good just as is.