First Round Dragon Ball vs. Amatsuki

[Kiki]

Dragon Ball Akira Toriyama​	-	Amatsuki Shinobu Takayama​

Rules

- You are allowed to vote for one Manga
- After 5 days, the Manga with the most votes will proceed into the next round
- In case of a tie, a staff pick will break it

Special Rules

- We proudly encourage you to share the best pics of your Manga!
- Earn the possibility to win a badge by being the proudest Mangalover around!

 

[Farfalla]

No posts yet O.o Thought I was the only one late.
Sry, I've been too busy. Later tonight I'll add some info and opinions about Amatsuki in case anyone is interested/willing to check it up^^

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 29, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 29, 2018 ---

Ok, the lady I'm meeting is late @.@ So gonna post a bit now alrdy.

First of all, you guys will have to forgive me, but I'm so tired xD So I borrowed other people's words to defend Amatsuki here '-' I'll pull the "movie cover" style here and just post what reviewers say:

"The plot is complicated, and there are more and more questions that pile up as the series goes on, but the journey toward those answers is fascinating, fun, and deeply layered in mystery. I can't help but read on because I want to know more. I want to find out what's really going on.

I think the main reason so many are confused is because of the amount of historical allusions and mythology that's packed into this story. There's also a good amount of science and psychology. Not to mention a few philosophical questions scattered throughout. This is the kind of manga that makes you think, and yet still makes you laugh and cry and feel horror. That's sometimes kind of hard to find all in one story."

whistlebird, on Manga Updates.

"Story: While hard to follow, Amatsuki has one of the best stories I've seen in a manga in ages. It starts off with a fairly ordinary premise: a boy gets trapped in another world. However, there's more to the story than just this generic, straightforward plot; questions of how Toki is trapped inside the game and what Amatsuki really IS keep you guessing throughout the story and make the whole concept of "a new world" far more intriguing than it usually is. The story is very thought-out, everything is perfectly intertwined, and there are a handful of twists I certainly didn't see coming.

The story's greatest weakness, I think, is that it unfolds almost like a mystery novel at times and is presented in such a way that it can be very difficult to follow at times. It will probably require you to read through it at least twice before getting a true understanding of everything that's going on. 9/10

Art: Gorgeous and detailed. Not much else to say here. 10/10

Character: The strongest point of the manga. Although Amatsuki has a pretty huge cast, almost none of the characters have gotten the short end of the stick in terms of developement. The characters all seem almost real in the way that all of them have obvious strengths, flaws, and motivations for what they do. While some people complain that there is no obvious antagonist in Amatsuki, this is one of the best parts about it: there are no stereotypically "good" or "evil" characters, just characters on different sides, all with understandable motivations and a whole lot of depth. 10/10"

crystalweaver, on My Anime List

"I read this because I watch the anime. But soon enough I realize the anime has failed me yet again because they didn't do justice to the awesomness of this manga. The story line is outstanding. They twist and turn the plot and even after reading along this far, I still have no freaking idea of how the ending would be like. The art is superb. I have no complains. Most of the characters are an eye candy. Not to mention the depth of each of the characters. No one is shallow.

I really enjoy this manga and have no qualm to give it full marks.

This is also one of the rarest manga where I can't find any annoying or unlikeable characters. Kudos."

kluxorious, on My Anime List

As I said in another event, this is not for everyone. It's complex, heavily detailed, presents many connections throughout the whole series (which is monthly and still on going) and demands attention and good memory for you to be able to follow and understand it as it is. No wonder whenever I wanna check on it, I gotta pick it up again '-'"

Imo it's a complete pack^^ A great plot that becomes highly original due to it's intricacy and approach to many themes; charismatic, relatable and realistic characters (which is something I love, I wanna be able to understand them and the resemblances with life matters is what gets me sold); amazing art... her colouring skills are mindblowing; and lots of food for thoughts. It gets you immersed and carries you away while you try to comprehend it and answer your questions. I also love it when a series provide us with something that isn't simply black or white, but much more complicated and makes you evaluate a lot of PoVs, including your own.

Well, and just to help you see if that's something you'd appreciate reading before you start on something that will demand time, people recommend it to the ones that like xxxHolic, D.Gray-man, Pandora Hearts, Ga-Rei, Donten ni Warau and Natsume Yuujinchou.

And be careful while looking for reviews on it '-'" People often mention things that only happen after chapter 80 or so.

That's it for now^^' Will be back later though. If anything, I'm up against a monster classic, DBZ XD I'd take anything from you guys here, even a recognition for my effort '-' And since it's Round 1, I dare saying Amatsuki beats DBZ in EVERYTHING. It's sad that only the educated ones on the series would be able to say something here... the hard life of going against the popular picks u.u

Art samples:

Ok, I got carried away... rs.

 

[**Silver**]

Dragonball is Steroid in the brain this series changed my childhood..

 

[Lambu]

Dragon Ball was my childhood, like... I know everything about the series, to the point I have a strong urge to campaign a little for it.
Even with all its flaws I still enjoy it greatly, especially the first part before "Z".

But campaign plays a major part in this and Amatsuki does look interesting.
I have yet to take it for real since I only read two chapters but the set up was quite good for an "isekai" type of manga.

 

[revo]

I liked Farfalla's nomination on the waifu wars a lot, checked the manga and is pretty good, it gets my vote

 

[Farfalla]

Aight, info time. My short overview on some of the series aspects. I don't consider the info I share here as spoilers since they happen in very early chapters, and I won't consider this as a good review either, but just some storytelling to introduce the theme and characters.

What's the series about?
A student, Tokidoki, fails Japanese History and has to write a work about the Edo period after showing up to a school event about the subject. In the event, they walk around the streets of Japan during the Edo period through the help of VR goggles. Eventually, Toki runs into some mysterious figures (there will be mythological references all over the series), ends up attacked and losing one of his eyes, getting stucked in that place once he loses his goggles and sees that he's still there. He gets saved by Kuchiha, brought to the shrine where she lives, so the monk that took care of her can attend to Toki. There he reunites with Kon, a guy that he just saw in the school event, but that has been trapped in that world for years now. They know the Edo period is about to end, and while Kon try to introduce and adapt Toki to that world, Toki gets to learn that the place is filled with youkais. The youkais are everywhere, but some powerful ones keep attacking humans, in a battle started by humans destroying nature and its ancient beings. While aiding the monk that helped him, Toki gets involved in this spiritual world, is requested to assist Ginshu, a deity that fights to preserve the human world, and meets Bonten, a deity that fights for the survival of the youkais. He's told that they're all doomed to follow that path 'cause they're entangled in the Amatsuki, the heaven's net, created by god itself.

About Toki:
Toki is a very likeable guy, he grew to be like that. In the early chapters you learn that he automatically tries to blend in wherever he is, in a silly attempt to feel like he belongs, 'cause in the end, unlike what he displays, he doesn't care much about his surroundings. Unlike what we usually see about a person that is eager to fit in, Toki's attempts are for the sake of getting engaged in something, connecting to others, and simply trying to feel anything.
He's a clever boy, that is good with science, and uses that on his favor to adapt and survive in that old and mystical world.

Spoiler

About Kuchiha:
She's a cursed girl, from a cursed family. Over generations, they've been possessed by the Inugami, passing it forward to their heirs. Her grandpa desired for her that she would die without bearing any child and end their line. She's an outcast, feared by people due to being considered as a threat and someone that has been lost to the youkais, the demons. That shaped her personality into being someone that doesn't smile nor trust easily, that despises the lack of appreciation for life and the ones that won't fight against the odds, and is the devoted to those that go out of their ways to help others.

Spoiler

About Kon:
Kon is a troublemaker and a loner, and that's what sets the tone for most of his relationships with people. Although most of the time he's quietly following his own path, he shows to be knowledgeable, intelligent and committed in certain situations. Tbh, in early stages, not much is showed about Kon's background and persona. Even though he's always there, he plays a lot in the background, being a quite mysterious character. Imo, what better defines him is his curiosity, which leads him to know a lot about things and get dragged into many events.

Spoiler

I personally love Amatsuki 'cause it's rich. So many references, approaching so many subjects... I love historical and mythological series, and this one comes with a good bunch of science and philosophy as well. All the mysteries and questions keep me engaged even during the slow and confusing chapters. It's also good to be able to follow great characters throughtout those things, and see how they relate.
Idk, in the end it's prolly personal taste. DBZ is a part of many people's life, and has its merit, but nostalgia has a big role in here, though. Heck, a good bunch of people in Brazil will say they were watching DBZ when the episode got interrupted for the news about the World Trade Center, the series is a part of too many memories. But nowadays, it's not something that would have a huge impact on me if I was reading it for the first time. What I like to read and follow is a bit more than the epic shonens bunch, I want a bit more of content than some thrilling moves and good gag. Can't know how many of you are the same, though.

 

[Seraph]

I'm voting Dragonball,it always had a special place for me and i had a lot of fun reading and watching it. Was always worth the Time and enjoyable as Sin be it back then as a Child or nowadays in a more mature age,never gets old for me.

 

[Ripper 30]

Sorry for this late post. I Have been encountering problems with Logging in for quite some time but lets get started.

so as we know, Dragon Ball is the Second Best Selling Manga of all time behind One Piece with sales exceddinge 359 Million Copies and in Terms of Per Volume Sales its the Best with an Average of 8.57 Millions per Volume.

But that's not all, it isn't so popular for nothing.

what makes DB so good so timeless are things like :

1. It's aesthetically unique and very much striking most of time when it comes to battles, even compared to most shonen anime in general.

2. It's a story that is very much embraces and indulges on the kind of charm and whimsy that most manga or animated TV often shy away from, while making the most of simple premises to deliver satisfying character moments and Toriyama himself subverts his own way of patten of storytelling at times in a unique way. It has good writing and it explains things in a nice, simplicity, and subtle way.

3. The core theme of striving to achieve the greatest power possible, while think of ways to break past that barrier. All the more made better by the fact it features a rotating cast of quirky characters.

It's a well told story that's simple to understand and follow with a more than a few layers for an attentive reader/viewer. Each arc is also very accessible and easy to jump into. I'd never recommend someone experience the series out of order, but, as evidenced by the series' popularity in the States, it's totally possible to jump in at just about any point and enjoy the ride. The characters are very likable, their dynamics are fun to watch or read, and the action is great.

Dragon Ball's arcs are so distinct from one another. It's not just the setting that changes. But the vibe and style of the narrative. For example, showing the Namek arc from the perspective of the main villain from the last arc (Vegeta)= genius. It's those little unsung details you don't see replicated much.


what makes it worth are things like, Plot, Story, characters, action, art, world building, humor, the sense of irony, the art, the action flow and Goku as a character who is very original and not generic or cliché .... there are more but I'm forgetting.

DB is simplistic but has really well execution and characterization. It at least does all the complexity of the characters in a simple and digestible way which is extremely good. Yes, DB has depth, it's just very nice and simplistic about it's presentation. There is that fun factor , but most characters do get good character development/characterization. It's potrayed in a pretty simplistic and enjoyable manner and characters do get nice arcs.

To put it short, DB's plot is mainly about Goku's maturation first, and then moreso Gohan in Z. This is then enriched with other subplots, like the whole Piccolo Daimao-Muten Roshi, Freeza-Saiyan history, Trunks's future, Kaioshin-Bibidi Boo and other various things. Some of the best plot twists include Goku being an alien, Trunks's introduction, Cell's introduction, Kuririn Dying after 22nd Tenka'ichi Budokai etc.

Goku as a Character goes from an innocent Curious kid to more wiser and he developed in a more subtle way and his growth was over the time and later on accepts his Saiyan heritage as well and look for successor in new Generation. also, the symbolic and dynamic growth of Goku becoming starting as a student and becoming his own Master.

Vegeta and Piccolo go from Ruthless antagonist to likable good Characters who make a bond with one of the Earthlings and they are changed by Goku's Actions too. Gohan and Future Trunks had Great development too be it Gohan getting over his pacifism and becoming independent or Trunks finally Gaining respect from his dad and learning to stand up himself and avenging Gohan. Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Kuririn, Blooma, all had nice development too. it's just DB is very Low-key with its development and instead of making it obvious it just implies it in a subtle way.

The DB Villains are awesome, Pilaf, Commander Red, General Blue, Tao Pai Pai, Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Boo all are distinctive fdim each other and have entertaining personalities and charm, specially the Z ones who are great because they act as a foil to the main characters and challenge the cast in both mental and physical way.

DB not having an end goal allowed Toriyama to put everything he had into each arc and try new things as he didn't have to worry about setting things up or lining things up with something that wouldn't happen till years later. Not saying that one form of story telling is better than the other, just that Toriyama's way of doing it also had its benifits, despite what some say.

It did well what it was going for and Goku meeting Blooma to Goku taking Oob. not everything has to be complex or Psychological to be good. not to mention DB had a diverse cast. every character is different and not a trope based on something that is dogs, cats, fire, rubber, ninjas, Samurai, Superman, Bruce Lee.
Dragonball is a world filled with anthropomorphic animals,man wolves(reverse werewolf) dinosaurs slug men, a living that thing chi chi keeps in her drawer,literal gods demon angels and pointy nippled people. Oh don’t forget cyborgs, androids ,aliens, Literary classic monsters such as vampires, ghosts, invisible men,mummies,witches and whatever Boo was.


Now, Coming on the Technical Part :

Toriyama keeps saying he forgot & tries to forget about DragonBall. Which I honestly feel...to be blunt, crap

Lets face it. He loves his work. Every panel, some even devoid of any drawings show Toriyama's concentrated soul in it. He revolutionized shounen demography with his creativity. Not talking about core Shounen themes (Nakama-tachi things which are abused to death in new anime)

His drawings are life-like & just like DB Animators Tadayoshi Yammamuro/Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru said, you can literally get the "Ki" of the characters drawn by Toriyama.

Another point which I really, really think commands respect is how Toriyama proved his mettle as great artist by constantly changing his artstyle.

Be it the rounded, chibi artsyle at 21st TB

or superiorly detailed, yet smooth over-arching style in Saiyan~Namek/pre-Frieza Arc

Or significantly sharp & angular artsyle in Android/Majin Buu Arc

Say whatever you want (including some blatant criticism him losing interest), but it takes guts, overwhelming dedication & skill to take-up the challenge & constantly "renew" yourself with the art and come up with These Fun ideas like Ghost Kamikaze Attack being these Ghost clones which blast after being touched

or Fusion being two being doing a symmetrical Crazy dance and have to accurately join fingers.

I'm personal fan of his sharper era & dare say none of shounen mangaka (Tite Kubo being an exception) comes close to Toriyama's eye for details. Especially during fluid fight scenes but Toriyama never sacrifices one aspect to comprise another. Ex: Super Vegeta's perfect body proportion even during complex movements against Semi-Perfect Cell. Its visually appealin imo

now, when it comes to Fight Choreography :

The manga's battles are still fantastic, however. And that mostly stems from Toriyama's superb sense of flow and unrivaled paneling. Modern Shounen manga feels too cluttered: you read a One Piece fight nowadays and the page is full of 50 panels focused on dialogue, rather than the fight itself. Exposition is the goal, not the spectacle. Not only that, but the panel composition is awful and completely disrupts the flow of the action. This is also true, though to a lesser extent, for MHA and Naruto. Then you have cases where the art is just incredibly messy that you can't even tell what's going on: Tokyo Ghoul or even one Trigun (Seinen, not Shounen, I know, but they're still battle series), for instance. You'll find that Toriyama usually doesn't use more than 4 or 5 panels per page in a fight and the action flows naturally from one panel to the other. The art is clear, without unnecessary details. Each chapter has some kind of arc: for example, every chapter during the tournament arcs is dedicated to one technique being used by the opponent only for Goku to counter it by the end of the chapter. Some authors now utilize this technique, but there's also a large number of authors that set a hint of some strategy 10 chapters ago and expect you to remember it when they reveal it. This disrupts the flow once again because it forces us to go back and reread the previous chapters to get the full picture. This isn't much of a problem if you're reading it in one sitting, but it gets especially annoying if you're reading it week-to-week. Dragon Ball fights also don't feel repetitive, you'll never get the feeling that you've seen that sequence before, like in Toyotaro's DBS or the Z anime, or Hajime no Ippo to use another series. Bleach is an example of a manga with great panel composition and a fantastic sense of flow that feels repetitive. Kubo is a great artist, but not a very creative one, at least in regards to his main character. Most of Ichigo's fights end up feeling the same; the more interesting fights belong to the side-characters but we, the audience, shouldn't really care about those fights because the author doesn't give us a reason to care, the fights aren't really tied to the main plot. There are other aspects to Toriyama's art that make his manga such a joy to read, like the creative use of angles, his sense of perspective and the fantastic use of speed lines, but I feel I highlighted the main ones.

Toriyama’s fights are beautifully choreographed and super smooth. You never have to stop and think about what’s happening on a panel because the art is so crystal clear. Every action comes alive on the page. Toriyama doesn’t get enough credit for how well he frames scenes and fights.

The Z-era fights tend to get a bad rap since there’s this notion that the martial arts aspect is phased out and, while there is a greater emphasis on Ki and signature attacks, the Z-era fights are just as good if not better.

Goku versus Vegeta is a flawless battle. The entire Freeza fight is an endurance match like no other. Goku versus Cell is a perfect showcase of Goku’s abilities and techniques. Even the Boo arc manages to have some of the slickest action in the series despite most of the fights falling on the short side.

I identify with a lot of the comments/posts on Twitter/FB and YouTube ribbing the series' fights for lack of choreography or creativity, especially in the anime, but I don't think Toriyama is being given nearly enough credit for 1) more or less inventing a visual style for both readable and explosively large-scale action that is still copied to this day, and 2) keeping it so consistently readable and interesting.

There's never a question of what you're looking at in the manga, and fights flow narratively, both in terms of their own structure and how they slot into the larger story in terms of advancing events and characters. That's incredible considering how quickly abstract the scale of the action becomes.

they hold up pretty well. I don't ever feel like they're ever lacking. Maybe they feel a little short by the Cell and Buu arcs (especially with the Buu arcs smaller chapter page count), but they also importantly never overstay their welcome. Alright, maybe Freeza didn't need to have 4 forms in retrospect, but enough is constantly happening in that fight it never feels like the characters are abruptly stopping what they're doing to wait for the next chapter and TirhyTor msbwges to keep it engaging.

One thing that I do appreciate about the way the fighting style works is that it's simple enough for a character to pull out a secret technique and have the audience easily understand what it's supposed to be without having to give a lecture about the deep scientific workings of their magical powers. Something like Goku's teleporting Kamehameha. Goku charges up an attack, then teleports at the very last minute to catch them off-guard. It's easy to understand, and it's also easy to believe how it could provide an advantage over regular punches and kicks and energy blasts. Because these powers simply work on ki, and not some sort of deep scientific concept rooted in real-world physics, anything and everything can happen, and I can still feasibly believe it.


Toriyama's ability to infuse realistic hand-to-hand action choreography & fun techniques which later became signature movesets like Kamehameha, Masenko, Kienzan, Kikoho made DragonBall a standard-bearer for action show

so i think Toriyama knew how to write a Great Battle shonen with an amazing Entertaining Story, Lovable castl, fun fights, wacky world and overall pretty good execution.

here's the artwork ,

this is an example of how clean, impacful and well choreographed the Artwork of Akira is :

Another example of why he's an absolute beast in Precise detail like showing emotions and expressions and conveying things without dialogues is here.
probably one of My favorite scene in the manga is probably Goku's reaction to "killing" Freeza: his shaking hand, his mixed look of disgust and sadness (maybe the single best panel in the manga), and his silently zipping away.

Goku’s melancholy face after “killing” Freeza on Namek is probably one of my favorite character moments in the entire franchise

No dialogue, no exposition. Just that panel of him, looking down at the crater and realizing what he’s done before flying away.

I LOVE THIS SO MUCH.

Like, look at the way he’s shaking. This is the first man that Goku’s ever killed since the time he spent under Kami’s tutelage. Ever since he found out killing is wrong and it’s evil.

And that’s exactly what he just did but this wasn’t like Raditz, he did it with his own hand :

Another Example of Toriyama's brilliant Craftsmanship is here, look how smoothly the action flows. Even Super Eyepatch Wolf talked about it in his "Why DBZ Manga is so Great" video where he explains in detail and breakdowns the Vegeta vs Reacoom Fight ( )

also, he has a Great sense of Humour too like here :

he can draw menacing :

and Cute Stuff :

and emotional stuff too :

here are some more :

 

[Farfalla]

Fine, that's a great campaign ç.ç

 

[Ripper 30]

Fine, that's a great campaign ç.ç

hey check it out again

 

[Farfalla]

Why do you want me to suffer Ç_Ç

 

[Ripper 30]

Why do you want me to suffer Ç_Ç

i meant the pictures are fixed

 

[Farfalla]

Ik, I'm just kidding^^

 

[Lambu]

@Ripper 30 Man what a campaign, you hit right in the nostalgia.

Was about to vote Amatsuki but now I can't

 

[Jammin]

I'll vote for Amatsuki.

Not a huge Dragonball guy though so I'm kind of immune to the nostalgia effect.

 

[GrySun]

Never was that big on Dragon Ball either. Was entertaining but watched it very rarely so isn‘t so memorable for me. Amatsuki seems like something I‘d like more.

 

[Ripper 30]

I'll vote for Amatsuki.

Not a huge Dragonball guy though so I'm kind of immune to the nostalgia effect.

you should try the manga or the DB and Z Anime in Japanese, without nostalgia/Hindsight it's a Great experience.
also i only watched it like last year and read the manga and its not just nostalgia which makes it a timeless product but the good writing and charm it had. i used to think that it's a bad show too lol before watching it.



nowdays Dragon Ball Super is ruining everything and is only made to sell merchandise and more of a video game ptomopromot type of show.

 

[Farfalla]

Oh this is nice xD Thx! ^^ Thought it would be like Nana vs. FMA all over again. I keep fighting big classics lol...

I rly think that you guys would enjoy Amatsuki A LOT. It's a good read to do by bits, as if in a tales book. The slow narrative and progression isn't a bad thing, on the opposite, it allows things to develop properly, without lose knots. They are rly well connected, even if it gets annoying at times to keep track of details and references. Rich was a rly good word for Amatsuki, the author does a good job keeping it intricate and cohesive. If you guys ever check it, lemme know D: !

 

[Lambu]

I'll vote for Amatsuki.

Not a huge Dragonball guy though so I'm kind of immune to the nostalgia effect.

Never was that big on Dragon Ball either. Was entertaining but watched it very rarely so isn‘t so memorable for me. Amatsuki seems like something I‘d like more.

Well nostalgia plays a big part on me with DB. If I hadn't grown up with it then I would probably not be that attached to the series... but it is a quality series even with its inconsistencies.
Didn't like Buu's arc though, not even as a child, it should have ended with Freeza for it to end at its highest.

nowdays Dragon Ball Super is ruining everything and is only made to sell merchandise and more of a video game ptomopromot type of show.

You could ask @Demonspeed what I think of the abomination Dragon Ball Super...

Oh this is nice xD Thx! ^^ Thought it would be like Nana vs. FMA all over again. I keep fighting big classics lol...

I rly think that you guys would enjoy Amatsuki A LOT. It's a good read to do by bits, as if in a tales book. The slow narrative and progression isn't a bad thing, on the opposite, it allows things to develop properly, without lose knots. They are rly well connected, even if it gets annoying at times to keep track of details and references. Rich was a rly good word for Amatsuki, the author does a good job keeping it intricate and cohesive. If you guys ever check it, lemme know D: !

I picked it again yesterday, the good thing about this event is it reminds me of mangas pending in my list.
I'll send you impressions when Im halfway through o/

 

[Jammin]

Well nostalgia plays a big part on me with DB. If I hadn't grown up with it then I would probably not be that attached to the series... but it is a quality series even with its inconsistencies.
Didn't like Buu's arc though, not even as a child, it should have ended with Freeza for it to end at its highest.

I don't mean to knock it. It just was never my thing. A cousin of mine was really into it and owned the anime everything up until after the Freeza arc. And I watched that with him and enjoyed it. But it never pulled me in the way series like Escoflowne and Inuyasha did.