First Round 2. (Jinbe vs Monkey D. Luffy)

[Josef]

First Round 2.​

Jinbe​

VS.​

Monkey D. Luffy​

 

[Zehahaha]

Oh man this is a nice fight, let's start with a recap of the abilities and fighting style of these two characters :

Jinbe : An expert of Fishman Karate, an ex Shichibukai too, and he's shown to be quite strong too. With his Fishman Karate, he can harm Luffy, in the same way Luffy can harm him too. He fought against Ace on equal terms too. But, his main strenght lies on water, not on land, and he didn't show any exceptional speed on land either, and most of his dangerous technique were technique that required water. Although he was shown on ID to be quite fast and intercept an enraged Luffy back then, but that was Luffy from 2 years ago

Luffy : A DF user, and he mastered it too. He has been training with Rayleigh for 2 years and has shown a great profiency with Haki (especially COA and COC), he has mastered also Soru to a great level, where he was able to escape from Ceasar's Gastanet technique with relative ease. Luffy does have a good resistance to pain, and more than that, his resolve which is a decisive factor in nearly all his fights


Now, this fight could go either way depending on the environement, if there's a close source of water nearby, I could see Jinbe wining... Without water, it would be Luffy's victory... Assuming this is a fight on land, guess my vote goes for Luffy

 

[Mr. Arashi]

I'll go with Luffy too.

The greatest feat of Jinbe is raising Wadatsumi's body thanks to an inner water strike, but Luffy could put in danger the entire Noah thanks to Elephant Gatling, also we don't know the true strenght of Red Hawk in the surface. Knowing Kenbunshoku he can defeat Jinbe by destructive power itself.

 

[THM Nindo]

Agrees with the comment above.
Near water (or in water) Jinbei is deadly, but overall I think Luffy is stronger.

This would be an hell of a fight, but I think that Luffy would win this one.

 

[darkprince0521]

yeah. i would vote for Luffy too; but this one is very close call for me. i still am not sure who will win, but Luffy seems more likely because of his speed.

 

[Gotenkss]

I voted for Jinbei based on his feats.

Jinbe was able to battle Portgas D. Ace on equal terms, even when Ace had Logia powers for five days.
He is also able to control all the water within his vicinity including the water in a person's body
He could stop a direct magma punch from Akainu with his bare hand, unperturbed despite being badly burned
He is able to harm Luffy despite him being rubber and even Caribou who is a Logia user.
Also both Luffy and Jinbei jave same bount amount

Also, most people are assuming the fight to be on land. Fishmen fights are always near water.
Luffy's speed and Haki embedded Gear Second and Third are devastating, but I give edge to Jinbei

 

[cearon]

i think i will go with jinbei also.

reasons for it r plentiful. this guy isnt like regular luffy opponent that r strong but with the fatal weakness of thinking they r unbeatable(u can translate it as arrogant). he knows his limitations and has been traversing GL when luffy was looking to ace for guidance. and as @gotenkss mentioned the essence of FK isnt about fighting in the water(it wil make the attacks more powerfull like a doping granted) it is about using the water around and inside your enemy.

i think we have misinterpreted the fact of the 2 years of training. it was never about making them invincible it was bout giving them fighting chance. so SH will not be all that different than 1st time they entered the paradise.

all of this makes me go for jinbei. the fight wont be easy but i do believe his experience will be the deciding factor.

 

[Razh]

I think it would be an interesting fight. There's one think nobody mentioned, though. I got the feeling that Jinbei himself acknowledged Luffy is stronger during FI arc. By basically agreeing to join his crew at a certain point. You don't just agree to listen orders from a person who you don't see as a stronger man.

 

[Lazy]

Same for me, I'll vote for Jinbe.
Until now, We've seen Jinbe stomping everything he's been facing with ease.
He is a experienced fighter, has been on the new world for a long time, is known for his monstruous force and he is a fishman karate master.
Unless I'm wrong, 99% of the time we've seen him fight was on the ground (the exception was during Croc + Jinbei take over of a Marine Battleship after ID) and everytime his strength was a no match for his opponent (Moria One shotted ? how many effort did Luffy had to make in order to take him out ?)

Now Luffy is the hero so I'm thinking logic won't matter to some people, still, I can't help but notice that up until now, he has shown us almost nothing "really" interesting and efficient in term of fighting capabilities :

• Took so much time to defeat Hodi (while on the ground, let's say that the underwater fight was not fair...)
• He used Elephant Gun on a Kraken (wich Jimbe could have stomped too), Noah (defenseless) and Chopper Monster Point (once again, I'm pretty certain Jinbei would stomp Chopper even if he was in control and not in "Franky Berserk Mode")
• He has CoC but it seems it won't be of any help against Jinbei
• Jinbei was also surprised by how "weak" Luffy got after his training during their brief fight on FI

By any mean, I'm not saying Luffy's weak, but just that Jinbei is simply stronger (for now at least) and more experienced !

Gogo Jinbe !

----

I think it would be an interesting fight. There's one think nobody mentioned, though. I got the feeling that Jinbei himself acknowledged Luffy is stronger during FI arc. By basically agreeing to join his crew at a certain point. You don't just agree to listen orders from a person who you don't see as a stronger man.

You may be right, still, I was more under the impression that he agreed based on their friendship and what he accomplished for FishMan island (helping breaking the hatred circle of Human Vs Fishman) not because Luffy (wich almost failed ^_^) was able to take out Hody, destroy Noah and take out 50 000 fodder with CoC

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

That's a very interesting fight!
I won't give my vote for now and will try to observe the argumentation of other people, but I will also try to give my points on this one.

Most of the people try to insist that if the fight won't be in water or close to it, then Jimbei is doomed... Well, I don't agree. As manga showed us the last moment we saw them facing each other on Fishman Island, they were at least equal and the fight was on land and not close to the water. At least Jimbei couldn't use it like in Marineford Arc. People tend to forget that there is water everywhere, even though in different forms. Masters of Fishman Karate can perform attacks with water that reside in gaseous form in the air and also in human's body in their blood, so I do believe Jimbei won't be at disadvantage against Luffy. Of course Luffy's speed is more advanced, than Jimbei's and his Elephant Gun is devastating, but still it isn't that fast, so you can actually avoid it, especially since Jimbei at least isn't a slow one.
Jimbei managed to fight Moria quite well in Marineford. Of course he had sea water nearby, but still... Moria isn't as weak as some members ten to believe. I do believe he won't be an easy opponent for Luffy even now. Even though Luffy would win in the end, but still.
Jimbei was also Ace's equal back then and I doubt Luffy already caught up to Ace...
Still, Luffy is famous for his inhuman stamina and resistance to mostly everything. He can endure fatigue and pain, when a pack of normal humans would have already lied down dieing, so it would be a damn interesting fight...

 

[Lolack]

Luffy is stronger currently, even though jimbe is strong I can't see him win against luffy. His battle with ace was also long ago

 

[Zehahaha]

Unless I'm wrong, 99% of the time we've seen him fight was on the ground (the exception was during Croc + Jinbei take over of a Marine Battleship after ID) and everytime his strength was a no match for his opponent (Moria One shotted ? how many effort did Luffy had to make in order to take him out ?)

Comparing Luffy now with Luffy before the timeskip ? Comparing between Moria who has been running away and avoiding a direct fight against Luffy with Moria who fought directly against Jinbe?


Taking that skirmish between Jinbe and Luffy as an example ? Where even Luffy did use what... A Jet Stomp and a Punch only ?

Also

He is a experienced fighter, has been on the new world for a long time, is known for his monstruous force and he is a fishman karate master.

Where did you come up with that ? Never stated in the manga

Jimbei managed to fight Moria quite well in Marineford. Of course he had sea water nearby, but still... Moria isn't as weak as some members ten to believe. I do believe he won't be an easy opponent for Luffy even now. Even though Luffy would win in the end, but still.

Unlike Crocodile, or Lucci, Moria never dared to face Luffy directly, he was running around, using his Doppelman, and Luffy wasn't even serious as he didn't use Gear 2 and 3. What Luffy has fought was simply a Moria who absorbed 1000 Shadows, against a TIRED Luffy please.

What FK allows Jinbe on land it to at least be sure that he'd damage Luffy, nothing less nothing more, Jinbe's top speed was in water, Jinbe's most dangerous technique required a great amount of water, what he used on land was nothing that exceptional at all

 

[Lazy]

Where did you come up with that ? Never stated in the manga

What was not stated in the manga ?

He's an experienced fighter since he's been around for almost ten year (and he's still here, respected and in the top of OP food Chain)

We know he has huge strenght :

• Said by Arlong
• Said by marine during Fisher Tiger FlashBack
• Got a Shishibuckai offer thanks to that
• Was able to make the giant wadatsumi move
• etc etc etc

Regarding his mastering of fishman karate, I don't think anyone could disagree here ^_^

Then regarding his presence in the new world, you may be right, yet I don't see how it could be otherwise :-) (given the strong ties he had with WitheBeard, his long pirate experience, his new allegience to Big Mom, I trully can't fathom him not being familiar with the New World, but since it wasn't clearly stated let's just say it's a crazy speculation )

Comparing Luffy now with Luffy before the timeskip ? Comparing between Moria who has been running away and avoiding a direct fight against Luffy with Moria who fought directly against Jinbe?


Taking that skirmish between Jinbe and Luffy as an example ? Where even Luffy did use what... A Jet Stomp and a Punch only ?

Unlike Crocodile, or Lucci, Moria never dared to face Luffy directly, he was running around, using his Doppelman, and Luffy wasn't even serious as he didn't use Gear 2 and 3. What Luffy has fought was simply a Moria who absorbed 1000 Shadows, against a TIRED Luffy please.

Well, We're using what we've been show up until now
Like it or not, that's all we have to figure out who could prevail in this fight

What FK allows Jinbe on land it to at least be sure that he'd damage Luffy, nothing less nothing more, Jinbe's top speed was in water, Jinbe's most dangerous technique required a great amount of water, what he used on land was nothing that exceptional at all

You're right, his fighting style will allow him to make sure he's able to hurt his opponents, nothing less, nothing more
Imho, beeing able to stop Wadatsumi was as "exceptional" as using Elephant Gun on inanimate object, stupid animal, unskilled opponent (I also found cool how he could counter Hordy water arrow, given how strong it was shown to be).

My point is just that up until now, Jinbei as been portrayed as a top tier opponent, while pre-timeskip Luffy was only Middle Tier and post-timeskipped, we haven't seen enought of Luffy "serious" battle to judge (Hordy, PX), and given his "easy one" (Monet, CC ?) we can't say "zomg he's so ubber strong now he's gained his spot with the best of the best"

 

[Zehahaha]

@Lazy

I'm not downgrading Jinbe at all, actually I think he's strong, but I do think he's x10000 more dangerous underwater rather than on land, the techniques he shown on land are great, but he's more dangerous underwater where he can use some dangerous techniques there, and his speed is on a whole other level underwater too

I'm against using Luffy's feat against Moria, but there's a huge difference there, I should remind that was a " Luffy " that wasn't able to beat a Pacifista and needed his whole crew using their best techniques to beat one, while after training with Rayleigh, he pwned a Pacifista with a single Gear 2 punch whitout even using Hardening... A huge difference in there. If you said this was Luffy before training vs Jinbe, I'd give it to Jinbe gladly, not only that, because as I said, Moria was running away, and only fought directly Luffy after he got tired and absorbed a lot of Shadows

I'd like to add something more, except the Pacifista, none of the opponents faced after the timeskip were one who could be OS, but they were opponents who were absolutely overwhelmed by Luffy

As for Wadatsumi, he was huge, and that's it honestly, in terms of skills, even Kraken and Hody seemed more skilled for fighting than him

As for Jinbe being top tier... I dunno. He always seemed to me like he's Top Mid-Tier, Top tier for me are the Admirals, Mihawk, Dofla, and the Yonko, and Rayleigh... That's my opinion anyway about this

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Zehahaha
Actually Moria didn't feel need to fight Luffy. When Luffy first encountered him in his apartments he tried to fight him, but it was too one-sided. Moria just used a bit of his DF and managed to easily stop Luffy, while he couldn't even lay a hit on Moria.
After that in order to fight Moria he had to absord tons of Shadows and only due to that he managed to inflict damage to Moria and get him out of Oars. You should take in account that without that Shadows Luffy would have lost to Moria who used Oars's zombien with any of his Gears...
And even when Luffy beat Moria he was immediatly out of concious, because of the fight...

Well, of course Jimbei's strongest techs need big ammounts of water, but I do believe that such techs are capable of even fighting such guys like Akainu or at least Vice Admirals, while Luffy's best attacks like Elephant Gun and Elephant Gatling are for now not that fast attacks even though considerably strong, so I doubt they can hit someone not as big as Kraken or someone who is already injured like Hody. So Jimbei will at least have enough speed to avoid Luffy's strongest attacks and Jimbei's quite average attack hurt Luffy quite a bit, when they had a small fight on Fishman Island...

Also about Shadows... Moria has Kage Kage DF, so the usage of shadows is actually a basis of his attacks. To say that Mroia used 1000 Shadows against Luffy is to say the same as to say that Luffy used Gears against Coby. The usage of Shadows is the very basis of Moria's power, the same as Gears are the basis of Luffy's, then why you try to downgrade Moria due to it?

 

[Josef]

The way I see it, it's a ll about time. Not in this fight but a central topic when discussing all fights in One Piece. Jinbe was stronger for most of the series during his time a Shichibukai, and during the war as well. But it was never a problem for Luffy to beat Shichibukai, BUT again there is a power gap between Shichibukai themselves, for example compare Moria to Jinbe ... Luffy beat Moria, but I think he would have trouble with Jinbe. Of course after the time skip this does not matter, due to Luffy's training, which we have not seen in full force, due to him not meeting top tier guys, Dofla is a good test. If Luffy beats Dofla at the end of the saga, then I can WITH 100% say that Luffy is stronger than Jinbe since I place Dofal above Jinbe. Now with 80% certainty, I go for Luffy.

 

[Zehahaha]

Zehahaha
Actually Moria didn't feel need to fight Luffy. When Luffy first encountered him in his apartments he tried to fight him, but it was too one-sided. Moria just used a bit of his DF and managed to easily stop Luffy, while he couldn't even lay a hit on Moria.
After that in order to fight Moria he had to absord tons of Shadows and only due to that he managed to inflict damage to Moria and get him out of Oars. You should take in account that without that Shadows Luffy would have lost to Moria who used Oars's zombien with any of his Gears...
And even when Luffy beat Moria he was immediatly out of concious, because of the fight...

Well, of course Jimbei's strongest techs need big ammounts of water, but I do believe that such techs are capable of even fighting such guys like Akainu or at least Vice Admirals, while Luffy's best attacks like Elephant Gun and Elephant Gatling are for now not that fast attacks even though considerably strong, so I doubt they can hit someone not as big as Kraken or someone who is already injured like Hody. So Jimbei will at least have enough speed to avoid Luffy's strongest attacks and Jimbei's quite average attack hurt Luffy quite a bit, when they had a small fight on Fishman Island...

Also about Shadows... Moria has Kage Kage DF, so the usage of shadows is actually a basis of his attacks. To say that Mroia used 1000 Shadows against Luffy is to say the same as to say that Luffy used Gears against Coby. The usage of Shadows is the very basis of Moria's power, the same as Gears are the basis of Luffy's, then why you try to downgrade Moria due to it?

And Luffy too didn't use his Gear 2 nor Gear 3, so you can't say he was fighting seriously right, and even that, Moria kept running around... Zoro summed it up pretty well : At TB, they used tricks... Their opponents were weak, neither Sanji nor Zoro had trouble, and same could be said for Luffy

You said it yourself : Moria was using Oars, and that Oars had not only the Shadow of Luffy, but was the biggest living being we've ever seen after SanJuan Wolf, and yes, Luffy was out of consciouness after that, why ? Because he had taken 100 Shadows, which is no easy feat considering he doesn't even have the Kage Kage no Mi


You're missing my entire point for Moria : Luffy fought against someone who had the environement in his favor, he fought against someone who had at his disposal a great amount of Shadows belonging to strong people, Luffy fought against someone who prefered to use tricks, something which Luffy isn't as good at it I'm afraid, the difference between Moria using 1000 Shadows and Luffy using gears is that Moria can incorporate fighting skills of those Shadows, we've seen what Luffy was able to do with that Katana when he used the Shadow of that Marine swordsman, the same Luffy who was never able to use swords in his life...

Put Luffy (before timeskip) vs Moria without tricks, Luffy would beat him easily, yes easily ! Put them in island where the sun is shining, where there isn't a huge reserve of shadows of Moria, and he'd lose badly, because : he didn't show no exceptional speed, no exceptional power, nada

Also, Luffy before the timeskip is nothing like Luffy after timeskip, so using his feats back then is irrelevant honestly... He has surpassed that level, and we should the feats he shown after the timeskip

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Josef K.
Well, I do believe Luffy wasn't at Moria's level before timeskip, even though he managed to bit him. If we talk seriously, he managed to beat Moria only due to external powerup. Those 100 Shadows he was given granted him not only physical power-up, but also power-up in terms of techniques and skills. Of course it was a short power-up, but without it Luffy would have lost in the begining of the fight...
So only during the training I see Luffy getting at Moria's level. Right now I think Luffy can manage Moria by himself without an external help, but also it won't be easy for him.

Zehahaha

And Luffy too didn't use his Gear 2 nor Gear 3, so you can't say he was fighting seriously right, and even that, Moria kept running around... Zoro summed it up pretty well : At TB, they used tricks... Their opponents were weak, neither Sanji nor Zoro had trouble, and same could be said for Luffy

1. I wouldn't say that Luffy wasn't serious. He was quite determined to take his Shadow back as well as to get back the shadows of his friends. The thing why he didn't use his full power... well, it was his problem. If you need to win and can't because you don't want to use your full power, then it's not a problem of your opponent, but yours. It's common logic. And without that power it couldn't make Moria make any effort.
2. Obviously Moria was way stronger than Luffy. How can you say that Moria used tricks against Luffy, while it's his ability. Usopp also uses tricks most of the time as well as Nami. Also, in order to defeat Moria Luffy used 100 shadows, so he also used some tricks...

You said it yourself : Moria was using Oars, and that Oars had not only the Shadow of Luffy, but was the biggest living being we've ever seen after SanJuan Wolf, and yes, Luffy was out of consciouness after that, why ? Because he had taken 100 Shadows, which is no easy feat considering he doesn't even have the Kage Kage no Mi

Again, it's Moria's ability that enable's him to use Oars in such a fashion. This way we can call Admirals using tricks, when they use their DF's ability in order to make opponent's attacks path through if an opponent doesn't have Haki... or how Enel used his Arc Maxim in order to use his DF to his best. It's the same. If you have an oportunity to make yourself stronger, than it's not a trick. It's your ability.

You're missing my entire point for Moria : Luffy fought against someone who had the environement in his favor, he fought against someone who had at his disposal a great amount of Shadows belonging to strong people, Luffy fought against someone who prefered to use tricks, something which Luffy isn't as good at it I'm afraid, the difference between Moria using 1000 Shadows and Luffy using gears is that Moria can incorporate fighting skills of those Shadows, we've seen what Luffy was able to do with that Katana when he used the Shadow of that Marine swordsman, the same Luffy who was never able to use swords in his life...

I'm not missing your point. It's just Moria's style to fight. It's his tactics. It's his usage of his DF. And he manages to do it to its fullest. It's always like this in One Piece. Most of the time your opponent has an advantage due to environment or some other things like compatibility of DF's. My point is that Moria's shadows are his ability and thus we can't say that if he wouldn't used them Luffy would have won, because it's the same as take Logia from Admirals and then say that otherwise Luffy would have won against them.
And about tricks. You also mentioned yourself that Luffy also used those Shadows and without them it's obvious that he would have lost just in the begigning of his fight even with all his Gears.
Also about tricks... Usopp and Nami are also the guys who use tricks, because they re like this. It's their ability and their way to fight. The same Black Beard also used tricks in order to take down Whitebeard, but he is the one who won and WB is the one who lost.

Also, Luffy before the timeskip is nothing like Luffy after timeskip, so using his feats back then is irrelevant honestly... He has surpassed that level, and we should the feats he shown after the timeskip

Ok, going by feats Luffy showed after timeskip... He had a small browl with Jimbei, when they both took out each other and they really seemd at least equal and Luffy didn't have any advantage. The same Jimbei managed to show a good fight during the War. Not only against Moria, but as well against Akainu, when at some point he managed to stop his magma fist with his hand. Of course for some moment, but it is still quite a fit, even though it didn't work the second time...


P.S. You should understand that even though I'm Luffy's fan I try to look at him from a critical point of view. I really do believe that Luffy is strong, but I do believe as well that Luffy is still not in the league, when he can take such opponents as Jimbei or Moria effortlessly. Also I don't believe that Luffy could take Moria by himself before timeskip even if Moria didn't use his tricks.

 

[Josef]

But I think that is the trick with Luffy before the time skip, he always had some "tricks", and back doors to beating a strong opponent, Croc, Enel and Moria. Probably against CP9 he did it on his own, with his own power ups, even if those power ups can be considered tricks at the time, since he did not master them. He just learned by watching them perform Soru. So this can be both good and bad for Luffy, Good, since with a bit of luck and a bit of thinking he beat his opponents.

 

[Razh]

[*]Jinbei was also surprised by how "weak" Luffy got after his training during their brief fight on FI
[/LIST]

You're talking about the same man who later agreed to join Luffy's crew. He would gladly abandon his own crew to join some other captain. That by itself kinda refutes what he said at the time of the clash.

Besides, neither Luffy nor Jinbei went full power there, and what Jinbei said was a classic trash talk, most likely.