First Round 2. (Jinbe vs Monkey D. Luffy)

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Josef K.
I see Luffy as the guy who is smart enough to be able to fin out a trcik (I think we think about the same things on this one ) to take down a stronger opponent. Like water or blood against Croc or a non-thinking state against Enel, when he used ricoshette punches against him on Arc Maxim. It's Luffy's best and most important fit for me. I like him mostly because of this not even because of his guts.
I also do believe that the fight between Luffy and Jimbei would be very, very close. The same way Luffy fought against Lucci. He might win, but in this case he would be out of any power and won't be able to move after it even an inch for quite a while.
Though it also depends on what Jimbei will offer to Luffy. If the fight would be near water I don't think Luffy can win as he is now. If it's not around water I can see a scenario like he performed against Lucci...

 

[Zehahaha]

Zehahaha


1. I wouldn't say that Luffy wasn't serious. He was quite determined to take his Shadow back as well as to get back the shadows of his friends. The thing why he didn't use his full power... well, it was his problem. If you need to win and can't because you don't want to use your full power, then it's not a problem of your opponent, but yours. It's common logic. And without that power it couldn't make Moria make any effort.
2. Obviously Moria was way stronger than Luffy. How can you say that Moria used tricks against Luffy, while it's his ability. Usopp also uses tricks most of the time as well as Nami. Also, in order to defeat Moria Luffy used 100 shadows, so he also used some tricks...


Again, it's Moria's ability that enable's him to use Oars in such a fashion. This way we can call Admirals using tricks, when they use their DF's ability in order to make opponent's attacks path through if an opponent doesn't have Haki... or how Enel used his Arc Maxim in order to use his DF to his best. It's the same. If you have an oportunity to make yourself stronger, than it's not a trick. It's your ability.


I'm not missing your point. It's just Moria's style to fight. It's his tactics. It's his usage of his DF. And he manages to do it to its fullest. It's always like this in One Piece. Most of the time your opponent has an advantage due to environment or some other things like compatibility of DF's. My point is that Moria's shadows are his ability and thus we can't say that if he wouldn't used them Luffy would have won, because it's the same as take Logia from Admirals and then say that otherwise Luffy would have won against them.
And about tricks. You also mentioned yourself that Luffy also used those Shadows and without them it's obvious that he would have lost just in the begigning of his fight even with all his Gears.
Also about tricks... Usopp and Nami are also the guys who use tricks, because they re like this. It's their ability and their way to fight. The same Black Beard also used tricks in order to take down Whitebeard, but he is the one who won and WB is the one who lost.


Ok, going by feats Luffy showed after timeskip... He had a small browl with Jimbei, when they both took out each other and they really seemd at least equal and Luffy didn't have any advantage. The same Jimbei managed to show a good fight during the War. Not only against Moria, but as well against Akainu, when at some point he managed to stop his magma fist with his hand. Of course for some moment, but it is still quite a fit, even though it didn't work the second time...


P.S. You should understand that even though I'm Luffy's fan I try to look at him from a critical point of view. I really do believe that Luffy is strong, but I do believe as well that Luffy is still not in the league, when he can take such opponents as Jimbei or Moria effortlessly. Also I don't believe that Luffy could take Moria by himself before timeskip even if Moria didn't use his tricks.

1- Luffy being serious means using all the techniques he had, which he didn't use, Luffy being serious was like when he was fighting against Lucci or Croco (inside the temple) for example, that's what serious Luffy is like

2- The thing is, I'm not against using tricks, but this is a thread where we put feats towards other feats, and Moria didn't show any real feats. As I said, put Luffy vs Moria in a sunny island, with no huge stock of shadows, Moria would lose badly. Because again, what Luffy has fought Moria in HIS TURF, which gave a huge advantage : Using his doppelman without worrying about the Sun, having under his thumb shadows of strong warriors, meaning that the environement was in his advantage, it was his field, do you get it now ? And the environement has a huge role for characters like Moria and Jinbe, Jinbe underwater isn't the same Jinbe on land right ?

I'd say Moria > Luffy if the guy fought him Mano to Mano, without running around, without having a stock of shadows to use, where the environement doesn't give an advantage over any of them, which isn't the case in TB


3- Refer to point 2

4- Refer to point 2 again, Moria was doing such a tactic because he was in his turf and had a lot of tools, he can't do such a thing anywhere else

Moria's feat are conditioned by him being in TB, if he wasn't there, and fought Luffy let's just say on any island, he'd lose badly, because he didn't show shit that would be able to stand against Luffy using his gears before the timeskip. Moria is WEAK, hence why the WG wanted to get rid of him in the first place

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Zehahaha
1. I get what you mean, but nontheless Luffy was at least quite determined to get the shadows back:
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2570-2/one-piece/chapter-463.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2570-3/one-piece/chapter-463.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2570-4/one-piece/chapter-463.html
I don't think that Luffy wasn't serious. He went for the head from the start. I believe Luffy understimated Moria, because he was so casual lieing around. Also Moria doesn't look like a fighter. He looks fat and clumsy, so of course Luffy understimated him first and didn't use his full power, but it was Luffy's problem. Also I do agree with Moria who stated that with such level of power Luffy can't take Moria down. Even with Gears Luffy wouldn't have taken Moria if Moria just used his Df's abilities without using the tricks you mentioned before.
2. How you can say that Moria didn't show any fits? He managed to survive War that Luffy couldn't and managed to fight Dofla for some time after that who was using a pack of Pacifista, so he obviously has feats considerably higher than Luffy before timeskip. Luffy wouldn't have a chance against Pacifista before timeskip in one on one even at his best, while Moria managed to fight a pack of them in quite a horrible state. Of course he would have died if it's not for his saviour, but still he managed to show way more in that situation than Luffy would have done. Also in the War Moria fought against he guys who would have made fodder treatment against Luffy before timeskip and most of them are stronger than Luffy even now (WB commanders and New World Captains).

I'd say Moria > Luffy if the guy fought him Mano to Mano, without running around, without having a stock of shadows to use, where the environement doesn't give an advantage over any of them, which isn't the case in TB

But Shadows are Moria's power as it's his DF. It's the same to say that Jimbei can't use water or Logia users can't use their Logia abilities and having to fight just Mano to Mano as you've said.
Also Moria managed to use others's shadows even during the War in Marineford. And it was more or less sunny there.

I would say it again that Moria isn't weakling. Before timeskip he wouldn't have lost to Luffy even in a neutral environment. Moria managed to fought against Dofla to some extent, when Dofla used a pack of Pacifista and surrounded Moria and Moria was already tired because of the War, but still managed to fight for a long time against such an opponent, but at the same time Luffy with his entire crew barely managed to take down even one Pacifista, so you really think Luffy was stronger than Moria before timeskip? Not even talking about fodder treatment...

 

[Razh]

I would say it again that Moria isn't weakling. Before timeskip he wouldn't have lost to Luffy even in a neutral environment. Moria managed to fought against Dofla to some extent, when Dofla used a pack of Pacifista and surrounded Moria and Moria was already tired because of the War, but still managed to fight for a long time against such an opponent, but at the same time Luffy with his entire crew barely managed to take down even one Pacifista, so you really think Luffy was stronger than Moria before timeskip? Not even talking about fodder treatment...

Where did you see Moria fighting against Dofla and Pacifistas? We only saw them corner him and thats it.

And Luffy beat the shit out of Asgard Moria. Normal Moria doesn't even stand a chance.

 

[UnknownMugiwara]

We have already seen the result.

Spoiler

In a battle between Jinbei and Luffy; Robin wins and Sanji loses. (:

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Razh
Well, here:
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2586-10/one-piece/chapter-479.html
and here:
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2586-12/one-piece/chapter-479.html
Luffy managed to take Moria out due to his trciks. Luffy would have lost without those 100 shadows... As it wasn't his own power, but power of those 100 shadows. And after that Moria was quite weakened and couldn't control and contain all those 1000 shadows in his body as it really takes a damn great concentration to perform Shadow Asgard with such a ton of shadows. Also in this form even if he has much more power he is too big and thus he can't fight propperly and is a big target especially since for Luffy it was always better to fight big and not that agile opponents with his Gear 3. He managed to get Moria's shadows out of him.
When Moria just used his DF in a different way, like in the first fight against Luffy he would have won as Luffy couldn't penetrate his defense and I seriously doubt using Gears would change anything in such situation, cause Moria makes a shadow barrier between him and Luffy and Luffy couldn't fight in Gears as much as Moria can run from him.

And about Moria's fight against Dofla:
http://www.mangareader.net/103-50569-17/one-piece/chapter-581.html
Just when Shanks stopped the War Moria was quite ok and wasn't bleading, but on that picture after some time we already see him being tired and bleeding, so it's quite logical to assume he was fighting them.

 

[Razh]

But all we can see is that they beat him up. Anything else is pure speculation. There are no damage marks on either of Pacifistas.

As for Luffy vs. Moria. In their first fight, Luffy DID penetrate his defense, and that was without even using gears. Moria had to resort to tricks because, by his own admission, he got lazy and fights by using others. If he were strong enough to beat Luffy, there would be no need for Oz or Asgard. It's what Oda showed us in TB arc.

This kinda went too far. I got dragged in the discussion without realizing it, lol.

 

[Zehahaha]

@Jorge

And Moria was fighting him using a big ass Zombie called Oars too... You make it sound as if Oars is one of Moria's abilities...

And Luffy too was tired because of those 100 Shadows, and even needed Brook to take him up to the mast in order to beat Oars

And also, when Luffy first fought Moria, you think that Shadow could've kept with his Soru, or could've blocked a Gear 3 attack too ? You assume that the Shadow would be able to keep up with Luffy's speed

And even if Moria didn't absorb 1000 Shadow and became big, he didn't show nothing that could keep with just Soru...

About Dofla, all I see there is a bunch of Pacifistas and Dofla without a single injury or even a scratch, against a bleeding Moria, so much for a Shichibukai who didn't seem able to take at least one of them...

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Razh Zehahaha

I agree that those Pacifista didn't have scratches on them, but still to be able to not loose to such an ammount of them and die in a minute is also quite a fit Luffy couldn't achieve before timeskip. Hope you agree with me on it.

About other things... Well, I agree to disagree. It's bvoius that we dragged this discussion about Luffy and Moria too far and we don't seem to agree to change our opinions. My main point to start this discussion was not to show how Luffy was weak before timeskip, but to show that Moria wasn't as weak as most of the forum members try to show. And that is mostly the basis of tons of discussions considering Luffy's fights against more or less strong opponents as people tend to imply that even before timeskip Luffy can make fodder treatment on Moria, though it's not true. That was my main point. And also Luffy in most of the cases during the manga fights with some handicaps that give great advantage to his opponents, but it's obvious as he wants to become Pirate King, so he needs to be able to overcome any dissadvantages he faces not only in order to proove himself as the strongest, but also to protect his crew and friends.

 

[Mr. Arashi]

Jinbe was able to battle Portgas D. Ace on equal terms, even when Ace had Logia powers for five days.
He is also able to control all the water within his vicinity including the water in a person's body

Just saying, but that fight was near the beach.

Don't know why are you comparing the fight of Luffy against Moria, whilst he can crush a Pacifista with one hit now xd

 

[Poneglyph420]

This one has got to be Luffy.. And not only for the obvious plot based reasons.
I personally would think that this would be a messy fight....

Still it's Luffy's to win or lose.

IMHO.

 

[Rosebullet Teacher]

I think it's a match of Luffy's haki ability and Jinbe's fishman karate ability: Luffy is gonna have to dodge everything Jinbe throws or the shockwave will get him, but i also think Jinbe couldn't dodge a serious gear 2nd attack only block it like how he did to Luffy's jet stomp. A gear 3rd attack would be a problem for Jinbe, but a gear 3rd barrage (Elephant Gatling) doesn't seem tankable only dodgeable. I think Luffy's potential destructive force overwhelms Jinbe but by no means is this an easy fight, i wish we had seen more of his power against Wadatsumi but already his roundhouse kick looked impressive and easily used. An arsenal of moves like that render gear 2nd attacks moot, if Luffy can maintain his speed advantage while in gear 3rd remains to be seen.

I say Jinbe's fishman karate experience exceeds Luffys haki ability, but with his armament hardening (which we havent seen used for defense) Luffy could probably tank anything Jinbe has thrown thus far its coming down to stamina and will and i say Luffy wins on both those points.

FuS

 

[Razh]

Yeah, if experience was the most deciding factor in fights, Luffy would lose majority of his fights. It's his crazy stamina and ability to adapt and learn quickly that makes him the winner in the end.

 

[Lazy]

You're talking about the same man who later agreed to join Luffy's crew. He would gladly abandon his own crew to join some other captain. That by itself kinda refutes what he said at the time of the clash.

Besides, neither Luffy nor Jinbei went full power there, and what Jinbei said was a classic trash talk, most likely.

I already answered

You may be right, still, I was more under the impression that he agreed based on their friendship and what he accomplished for FishMan island (helping breaking the hatred circle of Human Vs Fishman) not because Luffy (wich almost failed ^_^) was able to take out Hody, destroy Noah and take out 50 000 fodder with CoC

But you're right, neither of them went full force. Luffy was just super decided to go and couldn't evade Jinbe's attack, nor defend against them and it seemed to me that the blow he landed (wich is still a Gear2 attack) didn't fazed Jinbe at all

Yeah, if experience was the most deciding factor in fights, Luffy would lose majority of his fights. It's his crazy stamina and ability to adapt and learn quickly that makes him the winner in the end.

I get your point, still I'm against using it, else we could replace Jinbe with almost everyone and the result/debate would be the same : Luffy will adapt, has crazy stamina and soon to be ubber strong haki so he should win (and since he's the hero ... )

Regarding Stamina, I feel that Jimbe has way more stamina than Luffy :

1. Jinbei was able to fight against a Fire Logia for 5 straigth days
2. Luffy collapsed against Rob Lucci in a lot less than one day (yea, it was pre-timeskip, and once again I'm comparing with what we've been shown )
3. Luffy Collapsed after his fight with Hody due to the wound he got or maybe from the strain of Gatling Elephant Gun (and here is post time-skip, against a (weak?) subpar opponent)

 

[Zehahaha]

[*] Luffy Collapsed after his fight with Hody due to the wound he got or maybe from the strain of Gatling Elephant Gun (and here is post time-skip, against a (weak?) subpar opponent)
[/LIST]

Luffy collapsed because of blood loss against Hody, not because of his attack

 

[Lazy]

Luffy collapsed because of blood loss against Hody, not because of his attack

Yeah, but wasn't this blood loss the result of this attack ? (and here Chap 641 - Page 8 & 9) or did I miss it completly ?


Edit : Sorry, I completely misunderstood your post !

 

[Finale]

To say that Luffy can beat Jimbei is to say that post time skip Luffy is stronger than pretimeskip Ace. While Luffy has gotten stronger Jimbei likely has as well.

 

[Razh]

[*]Jinbei was able to fight against a Fire Logia for 5 straigth days

I feel like a lot of people are misinterpreting what happened when Jinbei and Ace fought. People take that "5 days" thing literal and just assume that the battle went non-stop for 120 hours. Those 2 probably fought during those 5 days and were pausing from time to time to recuperate.

Oh and Luffy fought Lucci after fighting for more than a day already, so you can't say he was beat after fighting a lot less than a day. Think of everything they had to go through in Water 7, then on Rocket, and then on Enies Lobby, before he got to fight Lucci. Add conitnued use of Gear 2 to that, and Luffy loses his stamina and ability to fight faster than normal.

 

[Lazy]

You're absolutely right ! I can't imagine them fighting for 5 days non-stop (same goes for Aokiji and Akainu), still, I feel like in itself it's just a huge feat to be able to fight for so long, even with breaks.

 

[scav]

You're absolutely right ! I can't imagine them fighting for 5 days non-stop (same goes for Aokiji and Akainu), still, I feel like in itself it's just a huge feat to be able to fight for so long, even with breaks.

yeah, i think the fighting was like those 2 geants fighting on an Island for 100years.