Group Group A

[Axiomus]

Stronger Celestial Wizard canonically equals stronger Celestial Spirit.

Spoiler

So yeah, its exactly the same as scaling Roaring Thunder or Zeroth Longbow

True, however unlike Roaring Thunder and Zeroth Longbow, CSK was shown to boost Lucy several tiers beyond her norm, allowing her to simultaneously fight Jackal and Mard Geer 2v1. Defeating the former and getting the better of the latter before her MP ran out. And we saw how weak she was against Jackal alone even with Wendy on her side in their previous fight, the increase in power is colossal.

As for how the MP increase works, i view it as multiplicative. If Lucy's strength doubles or triples, then so too does her spirit's, pretty much like any other spell.
Also, if CSK is ever summoned again(and there is a good chance he wont be), he will have to be top tier, and i mean top top, not Natsu top. Enough to at least hold off Zeref/Acno. Cause right now there is no one left to fight. If Lucy is sacrificing a key sometime this arc(prob Loke), it will definitely mean something. A colossal amount of speculation on my part i know, but if CSK appears again imo its a safe bet that he'll be one of the strongest characters in the manga.

I don't think it was ever stated to be multiplicative, and it doesn't have to be multiplicative to make it true that the stronger the mage gets the stronger the Spirit gets. IMO this doesn't make much sense when you take into account the Spirits have their own reserves of magical power that exists even without any owners. We've already seen what happens when Lucy's powers doubled with second origin, and it wasn't like Loke's or Aquarius' powers doubled along with Lucy. Gemini + Lucy's Urano Metria wasn't 4x the power of the time she used against Angel. CSK didn't boost Lucy's magical power with his own either. He gave Lucy Aquarius' star dress, which gave Lucy access to Aquarius' MP. CSK has a much higher MP reserve than Lucy herself, so of course summoning him to fight for her would increase Lucy's tier overall.

Speculation works both ways. There's an equal likelihood that the Spirit King can simply get oneshotted to simply further cement Acnologia and Zeref's hype, and that something else will be used to actually defeat them. Anna Heartfilia was the strongest Celestial Mage to have ever lived, and even she admitted that there was nothing that could be done when she had all 12 golden keys that could defeat Acnologia. Zeref should also know about the Spirit King and know what Celestial Spirit Magic is, and he still opted to go for Fairy Heart against Acnologia. There's a fair possibility that Zeref and Acnologia will tear each other apart when it comes to the actual fight, and that the good guys can just finish them off with a plot device like pushing them into the time rift.

 

[Seven777]

I don't think it was ever stated to be multiplicative, and IMO this doesn't make much sense when you take into account the Spirits have their own reserves of magical power that exists even without any owners. We've already seen what happens when Lucy's powers doubled with second origin, and it wasn't like Loke's or Aquarius' doubled along with Lucy. Gemini + Lucy's Urano Metria wasn't 4x the power of the time she used against Angel. CSK didn't boost Lucy's magical power with his own either. He gave Lucy Aquarius' star dress, which gave Lucy access to Aquarius' MP. CSK has a much higher MP reserve than Lucy herself, so of course summoning him to fight for her would increase Lucy's tier overall.

Speculation works both ways. There's an equal likelihood that the Spirit King can simply get oneshotted to simply further cement Acnologia and Zeref's hype, and that something else will be used to actually defeat them. Anna Heartfilia was the strongest Celestial Spirit to have ever lived, and even she admitted that there was nothing that could be done when she had all 12 golden keys that could defeat Acnologia.

It was never stated to be multiplicative, thats just how i view it. As for how much sense it makes, Gemini is a good example of the scaling matching Lucy's power level, Gemini is always able to copy someone with MP at or below Lucy's, a pretty consistent rule that does kinda suggest Spirits MP scales with its master's.
I dont see why the spirits having their own MP makes a difference. Lucy is the one supporting that MP in the first place, could be a similar situation to Neinhart and Spirits can only fully unleash there power with a wizard that can properly sustain them. I mean Loke went from weaker than Bixlow, to capable of landing a solid bruise on Jacob, i seriously doubt he only did that with whatever MP Lucy could afford to throw his way.
Dunno about Urano Metria, seemed more that Lucy's skill+knowledge wasnt up to par with what it was against Angel, i mean Hibiki didnt actually give Lucy MP, did he?

Sacrificing one of Lucy's beloved keys only to get oneshotted? Pretty cruel way to go i'd say, but i suppose its possible. Regardless, if we go by the massive increase in strength Lucy received in Tartaros, CSK being able to hold off Acno or Zeref at her current strength shouldnt be out of the question.

 

[LaGOAT]

It was never stated to be multiplicative, thats just how i view it. As for how much sense it makes, Gemini is a good example of the scaling matching Lucy's power level, Gemini is always able to copy someone with MP at or below Lucy's, a pretty consistent rule that does kinda suggest Spirits MP scales with its master's.
I dont see why the spirits having their own MP makes a difference. Lucy is the one supporting that MP in the first place, could be a similar situation to Neinhart and Spirits can only fully unleash there power with a wizard that can properly sustain them. I mean Loke went from weaker than Bixlow, to capable of landing a solid bruise on Jacob, i seriously doubt he only did that with whatever MP Lucy could afford to throw his way.
Dunno about Urano Metria, seemed more that Lucy's skill+knowledge wasnt up to par with what it was against Angel, i mean Hibiki didnt actually give Lucy MP, d

Sacrificing one of Lucy's beloved keys only to get oneshotted? Pretty cruel way to go i'd say, but i suppose its possible. Regardless, if we go by the massive increase in strength Lucy received in Tartaros, CSK being able to hold off Acno or Zeref at her current strength shouldnt be out of the question.

Holding off acno and zeref isn't by hat much a big feat. But I like said be4 it was said they have fought in the past so it means at max he on mard geer lvl and the panel u show me even if it's true he was fighting on toe to toe with base mard geer who wasn't even serious

 

[Axiomus]

It was never stated to be multiplicative, thats just how i view it. As for how much sense it makes, Gemini is a good example of the scaling matching Lucy's power level, Gemini is always able to copy someone with MP at or below Lucy's, a pretty consistent rule that does kinda suggest Spirits MP scales with its master's.
I dont see why the spirits having their own MP makes a difference. Lucy is the one supporting that MP in the first place, could be a similar situation to Neinhart and Spirits can only fully unleash there power with a wizard that can properly sustain them. I mean Loke went from weaker than Bixlow, to capable of landing a solid bruise on Jacob, i seriously doubt he only did that with whatever MP Lucy could afford to throw his way.
Dunno about Urano Metria, seemed more that Lucy's skill+knowledge wasnt up to par with what it was against Angel, i mean Hibiki didnt actually give Lucy MP, did he?

Sacrificing one of Lucy's beloved keys only to get oneshotted? Pretty cruel way to go i'd say, but i suppose its possible. Regardless, if we go by the massive increase in strength Lucy received in Tartaros, CSK being able to hold off Acno or Zeref at her current strength shouldnt be out of the question.

Gemini was able to copy Lucy even during the Oracion Seis arc, so we know that even with Angel's power she could have copied Lucy herself. I don't think Gemini's MP was that much off from Lucy's own in the first place, at least not during Oracion.

Lucy's spirits are not the same thing as Neinhart's historia. Neinhart literally creates his Historia with his magical power. Lucy's spirits exist whether or not she is their owner. They can have a completely different owner. Lucy can even die, and some Spirits like Loke can still exists with their own supply of magical power. The fact that Lucy's spirits have their own MP means that Lucy probably doesn't supply the spirits with the vast majority of their power if the spirit is several times stronger than Lucy herself.

Loke was never really weaker than Bixlow. Landing a bruise on Jacob isn't really that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Mirajane could do the same in her base form.

 

[Unnamed Namesake]

I don't think it was ever stated to be multiplicative, and it doesn't have to be multiplicative to make it true that the stronger the mage gets the stronger the Spirit gets. IMO this doesn't make much sense when you take into account the Spirits have their own reserves of magical power that exists even without any owners. We've already seen what happens when Lucy's powers doubled with second origin, and it wasn't like Loke's or Aquarius' powers doubled along with Lucy. Gemini + Lucy's Urano Metria wasn't 4x the power of the time she used against Angel. CSK didn't boost Lucy's magical power with his own either. He gave Lucy Aquarius' star dress, which gave Lucy access to Aquarius' MP. CSK has a much higher MP reserve than Lucy herself, so of course summoning him to fight for her would increase Lucy's tier overall.

Speculation works both ways. There's an equal likelihood that the Spirit King can simply get oneshotted to simply further cement Acnologia and Zeref's hype, and that something else will be used to actually defeat them. Anna Heartfilia was the strongest Celestial Mage to have ever lived, and even she admitted that there was nothing that could be done when she had all 12 golden keys that could defeat Acnologia. Zeref should also know about the Spirit King and know what Celestial Spirit Magic is, and he still opted to go for Fairy Heart against Acnologia. There's a fair possibility that Zeref and Acnologia will tear each other apart when it comes to the actual fight, and that the good guys can just finish them off with a plot device like pushing them into the time rift.

They do have their own magic, which is how Loke could freely enter the celestial spirit world, and how he lasted three years outside on his own magic. Though as the CS mage gets more powerful and their bond grows symbiotic with their spirits, so does the power of the spirit. After only a year, Lucy was able to take on aspects of her spirits (possibly including the spirit king), so imagine what could be possible with even more training. From what we have seen the zodiacs are a limitless well of magic left untapped.

 

[Axiomus]

It was never stated to be multiplicative, thats just how i view it. As for how much sense it makes, Gemini is a good example of the scaling matching Lucy's power level, Gemini is always able to copy someone with MP at or below Lucy's, a pretty consistent rule that does kinda suggest Spirits MP scales with its master's.
I dont see why the spirits having their own MP makes a difference. Lucy is the one supporting that MP in the first place, could be a similar situation to Neinhart and Spirits can only fully unleash there power with a wizard that can properly sustain them. I mean Loke went from weaker than Bixlow, to capable of landing a solid bruise on Jacob, i seriously doubt he only did that with whatever MP Lucy could afford to throw his way.
Dunno about Urano Metria, seemed more that Lucy's skill+knowledge wasnt up to par with what it was against Angel, i mean Hibiki didnt actually give Lucy MP, did he?

Sacrificing one of Lucy's beloved keys only to get oneshotted? Pretty cruel way to go i'd say, but i suppose its possible. Regardless, if we go by the massive increase in strength Lucy received in Tartaros, CSK being able to hold off Acno or Zeref at her current strength shouldnt be out of the question.

Gemini could already copy Lucy during the Oracion Seis arc. Remember, Lucy's spirit can be as strong as their own magical power + whatever power Lucy can spare. If Gemini's power is closed to a decent fraction of Lucy's own (more than the power it takes for Lucy to open the gate), then Lucy can always spare enough power for Gemini to copy someone around her level. Loke was never weaker than Bixlow. Bruising Jacob isn't that large of a feat in the grand scheme of things. Mirajane can do arguably the same thing with no takeovers. Regulus Lucy kick + Natsu's kick were both relatively weak attacks, and probably weren't on the level of attacks that could take out a pre-TS top tier like Zero or Bluenote.

The spirits having their own MP supplies makes a huge difference. First of all, it means that Lucy's Celestial Spirit Magic works nothing like Neinhart's Historia. Neinhart is literally creating his Historia from scratch, like Rustyrose is with his arc of creation. Lucy doesn't create the spirits. Celestial Spirit Magic's primary function is opening the gates. The spirits exists whether or not Lucy is their owner. In fact, spirits like Loke can go in the human world whether or not he has a living owner. Since all the spirits have their own magical power, spirits that are several times stronger than Lucy likely don't get the majority of their magical power from Lucy. Lucy ran out of magical power after she casted Urano Metria against Jackal. The Celestial Spirit King used his Galaxia Blade after that, meaning that move was probably done with his own power. He probably started to move slower because he had to use more magical power to keep his own gate open.

Again, if you want to go down the path of speculation, whose to say that Anna didn't secretly fetch Aquarius' key and that she will be the one to summon the Spirit King? Lucy didn't receive a massive boost to her own MP in Tartarus. She received the ability to use star dresses, which is when she borrows her spirits magical power to power herself. We don't actually have any indications that Lucy's own magical reserves has improved dramatically. She may have trained a bit over the timeskip and gotten stronger over that, but it was nothing like the rate of growth we've seen in other characters. I'm willing to say that Lucy's growth could have potentially evolved CSK from Mard's level to a relatively strong Spriggan. I'm not willing to say that CSK is now at Zeref's/August/Irene's level, seeing as that is several times stronger than the nearest canon showing of the Spirit King.

They do have their own magic, which is how Loke could freely enter the celestial spirit world, and how he lasted three years outside on his own magic. Though as the CS mage gets more powerful and their bond grows symbiotic with their spirits, so does the power of the spirit. After only a year, Lucy was able to take on aspects of her spirits (possibly including the spirit king), so imagine what could be possible with even more training. From what we have seen the zodiacs are a limitless well of magic left untapped.

I'm not arguing against the Spirits getting stronger as the Celestial Mage gets stronger. I'm just saying Lucy has her reserve of magical power and the spirits have their reserve of magical power. Increases in Lucy's reserve of magical power can be used to power her spirits, but Lucy does not create her spirits in the same way Neinhart creates a Historia. The spirits are not magical constructs that Lucy creates. They are already existing creatures that Lucy pulls from another dimension. The magic of Celestial Spirit magic is that of opening gates, which is the primary function. The spirits have their own base level of magical power, and Lucy adds to it.

Conversely, with star dress, Lucy can also take from her spirits' reserves of magical power. The stronger the spirit, the more powerful her star dress. Aquarius' star dress has proven to be Lucy's most powerful with her Aqua Metria spell outclassing virtually everything else in her arsenal.

 

[Nemispelled]

Irene can biltz her. And no I don't believe that Wendy can oneshot back to her human. She have to be at least erza lvl. And no Erza was able to damage her not only by Wendy ds becuase she has enough power to do it

Well, considering 95% of Erza's bones were broken, I doubt it was possible for Erza to exert "that much power" into that slash.

Irene simply reverted back to a human because Erza's DS-enchanted sword made contact with Irene's dragon body.

Keep in mind, the slash wasn't even that deep. It was a relatively minor cut... and it was a metal sword enhanced by a dragon slayer like Wendy...

If Wendy's DS magic could revert Irene, then any dragon slayer in this group is capable of doing the same thing.

Irene's chances are better in this match if she stays human.

And Base/DF Wendy already outclasses her in that form, in my personal opinion. So I do, logically see Natsu, Serena, Sting, and Wendy moving on.

They are the dragon slayers with the best feats in this group. Particularly DF Natsu, who should be a large margin above the latter 3.

 

[Valhalla]

Ok if i look at it logically (and i will do so through the entire tournament), and based on feats: Natsu, Irene, God Serena, Sting

1. Natsu - His DF is a game changer here, because it gives him a very huge advantage againts Irene (who would be first if it wasnt for DF) who doesn't fare well with dragon slaying magic, especially in her dragon form. Other than Irene, Natsu basically stomps everybody. If you ask me he is on par with Gildarts, maybe even stronger even without END or Igneel. His destructive capabilities and firepower are top-tier (certainly one of the top 5 mages in the series).

2. Irene - Insanely powerfull, one of the top 5 mages in the series, would be first if it wasnt for Natsu's DF. She can enchant basically everything she wants (I'm bearing in mind that in this tournament she's restricted from using body enchantments), manipulate the environment with her enchantments, can summon a freaking meteor, and she can turn into a dragon which is almost cheating if she's fightning non dragon slayer mages.

3. God Serena - Shown to be very powerfull, single handedly annihilated the GoI, hyped by Gildarts himself to be as strong as him, but his feats and hype end here because the dude was killed of at the start of the invasion, so we couldn't see his full potential. So, what makes God Serena so powerfull, are his 8 types of dragon slayer magic. Because of this he is extremely versatile while fighting againts mages with different types of magic. He can basically counter any mage with different elemental magic. Granted, we didnt see his four remaining dragon slayer types, but based on those we have seen, we can conclude by saying that his versatility and colosal magic power is what makes him one of the strongest (trolls and jokers :P) fighters in the series.

4. Sting - This was a tough one. It was either he, Mira or Cobra. Fourth place could go to any of the three, but what makes Sting win by a small margin is is DF with White-Shadow dragon mode. His dual mode with DF is certainly very powerfull and versatile. No dark or light based magic can affect him. He can merge with the shadows and become untouchable, well at least until he wants to punch someone, but he can easly off guard an enemy if hes using the shadows. His white-shadow rough silk can drop almost anyone, but only if the enemy is hit at point blank range.

 

[Jean Grey]

it would have been ridiculous if Aquarius in chapter 1 - 3 is equal to Aquarius chapter 550.

Spirits scale with Lucy. plain and simple. its not a rocked science or whatever.

 

[Axiomus]

it would have been ridiculous if Aquarius in chapter 1 - 3 is equal to Aquarius chapter 550.

Spirits scale with Lucy. plain and simple. its not a rocked science or whatever.

What's the major difference between Aquarius in chapter 1 and Aquarius in Tartarus? Actually for that matter, what's the difference between Aquarius in chapter 1 and Aquarius now? Lucy is no longer Aquarius' owner, and unless Aquarius is recovered by chapter 550, then Aquarius from chapter 1 is pretty much exactly like Aquarius in chapter 550.

 

[LaGOAT]

Well, considering 95% of Erza's bones were broken, I doubt it was possible for Erza to exert "that much power" into that slash.

Irene simply reverted back to a human because Erza's DS-enchanted sword made contact with Irene's dragon body.

Keep in mind, the slash wasn't even that deep. It was a relatively minor cut... and it was a metal sword enhanced by a dragon slayer like Wendy...

If Wendy's DS magic could revert Irene, then any dragon slayer in this group is capable of doing the same thing.

Irene's chances are better in this match if she stays human.

And Base/DF Wendy already outclasses her in that form, in my personal opinion. So I do, logically see Natsu, Serena, Sting, and Wendy moving on.

They are the dragon slayers with the best feats in this group. Particularly DF Natsu, who should a large margin above the latter 3.

Except that broken bones erza doesn't mean MP also decreases. I think disagree erza slash>any of Wendy attacks even with her ds advantage I doubt she has enough power to hurt Irene skin Wendy isn't that powerful. Human Irene over Wendy. even when wendy had Irene body she was stronger than Irene in Wendy body. Plus like i said be4 Irene biltz her from the get go

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 24, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 24, 2017 ---

Ok if i look at it logically (and i will do so through the entire tournament), and based on feats: Natsu, Irene, God Serena, Sting

1. Natsu - His DF is a game changer here, because it gives him a very huge advantage againts Irene (who would be first if it wasnt for DF) who doesn't fare well with dragon slaying magic, especially in her dragon form. Other than Irene, Natsu basically stomps everybody. If you ask me he is on par with Gildarts, maybe even stronger even without END or Igneel. His destructive capabilities and firepower are top-tier (certainly one of the top 5 mages in the series).

2. Irene - Insanely powerfull, one of the top 5 mages in the series, would be first if it wasnt for Natsu's DF. She can enchant basically everything she wants (I'm bearing in mind that in this tournament she's restricted from using body enchantments), manipulate the environment with her enchantments, can summon a freaking meteor, and she can turn into a dragon which is almost cheating if she's fightning non dragon slayer mages.

3. God Serena - Shown to be very powerfull, single handedly annihilated the GoI, hyped by Gildarts himself to be as strong as him, but his feats and hype end here because the dude was killed of at the start of the invasion, so we couldn't see his full potential. So, what makes God Serena so powerfull, are his 8 types of dragon slayer magic. Because of this he is extremely versatile while fighting againts mages with different types of magic. He can basically counter any mage with different elemental magic. Granted, we didnt see his four remaining dragon slayer types, but based on those we have seen, we can conclude by saying that his versatility and colosal magic power is what makes him one of the strongest (trolls and jokers :P) fighters in the series.

4. Sting - This was a tough one. It was either he, Mira or Cobra. Fourth place could go to any of the three, but what makes Sting win by a small margin is is DF with White-Shadow dragon mode. His dual mode with DF is certainly very powerfull and versatile. No dark or light based magic can affect him. He can merge with the shadows and become untouchable, well at least until he wants to punch someone, but he can easly off guard an enemy if hes using the shadows. His white-shadow rough silk can drop almost anyone, but only if the enemy is hit at point blank range.

When was it confirm that he used DF together with wsdm???

 

[Nemispelled]

Except that broken bones erza doesn't mean MP also decreases. I think disagree erza slash>any of Wendy attacks even with her ds advantage I doubt she has enough power to hurt Irene skin Wendy isn't that powerful. Human Irene over Wendy. even when wendy had Irene body she was stronger than Irene in Wendy body. Plus like i said be4 Irene biltz her from the get go

I'm assuming Irene starts out in Human Form in this tournament, right?

If that's the case, then Irene's dragon transformation is extremely slow. It took several panels for her to change into a full-fledged dragon.

She's not blitzing anybody from the get go.

And I don't see what MP has to do with Erza's slash. Erza could barely swing her sword, so there was very little power in her slash regardless of MP.

Not to mention, Erza was already utterly exhausted from the entire battle by that time.

Wendy has real dragon slaying magic. That trumps a simple metal sword enchanted by a little DS magic.

Irene's dragon form is useless in this group battle.

And I do see Wendy outclassing Irene in her human form.

Actually, I completely disagree.

Wendy Belserion was far stronger than Irene Marvell.

Irene Marvell was a downgrade.

Wendy Belserion was an upgrade.

 

[Jean Grey]

What's the major difference between Aquarius in chapter 1 and Aquarius in Tartarus?

Actually for that matter, what's the difference between Aquarius in chapter 1 and Aquarius now? Lucy is no longer Aquarius' owner, and unless Aquarius is recovered by chapter 550, then Aquarius from chapter 1 is exactly like Aquarius in chapter 550.

I just gave up some stupid comparison.

how about this, Loke who was not even on the Phantom arc Gajeel level, took Jacob's blows and even blocked one. in fact, the hit he gave to Jacob wouldn't even hurt Jacob. it would have been the same way when Golden Frieza hit SSB Goku

his strength increased over the 9 years because Lucy got stronger.

so if he is the same as he was back during the Phantom, he would have been immediately send back to the Spirit Realm if Jacob hit him once.

its ridiculous to even think that the Spirits are staying the same level every time they are summoned no matter how strong Lucy is.

 

[Axiomus]

I just gave up some stupid comparison.

how about this, Loke who was not even on the Phantom arc Gajeel level, took Jacob's blows and even blocked one. in fact, the hit he gave to Jacob wouldn't even hurt Jacob. it would have been the same way when Golden Frieza hit SSB Goku and he didn't even flinch

but Jacob did flinch when Loke hit him. his strength increased over the 9 years because Lucy got stronger.

so if he is the same as he was back during the Phantom, he would have been immediately send back to the Spirit Realm if Jacob hit him once.

its ridiculous to even think that the Spirits are staying the same level every time they are summoned no matter how strong Lucy is.

This isn't dragon ball, and Jacob doesn't have any strong attacks. He attacked Loke with what looks to be an invisible staff. It wouldn't have knocked out anyone.

Also, Loke isn't the same as he was in the Phantom Lord arc. Phantom Lord was before he was Lucy's spirit. The fact that he got to recharge in the Spirit realm alone would have made him stronger. The fact that Lucy can lessen the burden on his gate would have made him stronger. The fact that Lucy got second origin would have made him stronger. The fact that Lucy trained over the timeskip would have made Loke stronger. I'm not saying the spirits didn't get stronger, and I'm not even saying they don't get stronger as Lucy gets stronger. I'm saying it's Lucy's power that adds to the spirits, and I have yet seen anything that would contradict this.

There has to be some sort of logic behind how she's powering her spirits. CS magic is primarily opening gates and secondarily empowering spirits. It's not a magic that creates the spirit themselves. The magical power has to come from somewhere. I can even buy that power of feelings can cause Lucy to empower her spirits. What I don't buy is that if Lucy increases her magical power by 10%, all her spirits regardless of their power increases by 10%.

 

[Arjuna]

Except that broken bones erza doesn't mean MP also decreases. I think disagree erza slash>any of Wendy attacks even with her ds advantage I doubt she has enough power to hurt Irene skin Wendy isn't that powerful. Human Irene over Wendy. even when wendy had Irene body she was stronger than Irene in Wendy body. Plus like i said be4 Irene biltz her from the get go

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 24, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 24, 2017 ---

When was it confirm that he used DF together with wsdm???

Well one correction here.

Erza didn't break Deus Sema due to her M.P.It was due to her immense durability,endurance,stamina and D.C..M.P. doesn't give you ability to destroy.Otherwise Enchanted Neinhart can also destroy that Sema with his poor physicals.

 

[Jean Grey]

This isn't dragon ball, and Jacob doesn't have ridiculously strong attacks. He attacked Loke with what looks to be an invisible staff.

Also, Loke isn't the same as he was in the Phantom Lord arc. Phantom Lord was before he was Lucy's spirit. The fact that he got to recharge in the Spirit realm alone would have made him stronger. The fact that Lucy can lessen the burden on his gate would have made him stronger. The fact that Lucy got second origin would have made him stronger. I'm not saying the spirits didn't get stronger, and I'm not even saying they don't get stronger as Lucy gets stronger. I'm saying it's Lucy's power that adds to the spirits, and I have yet seen anything that would contradict this.

There has to be some sort of logic behind how she's powering her spirits. CS magic is primarily opening gates and secondarily empowering spirits. It's not a magic that creates the spirit themselves. The magical power has to come from somewhere. I can even buy that power of feelings can cause Lucy to empower her spirits. What I don't buy is that if Lucy increases her magical power by 10%, all her spirits regardless of their power increases by 10%.

well, I just gave some comparison that the attack wouldn't work like in Dragon Ball, something like Bluenote' gravity against Natsu. not strong but should still be stronger. at least people admit that Jacob is meh.

then what's the debate about???

Lucy' power is boosting the Spirits, AKA Spirits get stronger

 

[Axiomus]

well, I just gave some comparison that the attack wouldn't work like in Dragon Ball, something like Bluenote' gravity against Natsu. not strong but should still be stronger. at least people admit that Jacob is meh.

then what's the debate about???

Lucy' power is boosting the Spirits, AKA Spirits get stronger

Jacob has weak attacks, but he still has decent durability (at least on the level of Brandish's human-size) can still transport anyone with a clap. He's also a decent martial artist, so he has skill. He just doesn't hit that hard.

Like I said, all the magical power has to come from somewhere (even if it's PoF). Lucy's spirits should be the sum total of whatever power Lucy can spare to power her spirits + their base magical power. CSK's base power is probably somewhere on Mard's level. Lucy's own magical power might be enough to push him to a Spriggan tier, but Acnologia's level? That's a huge stretch.

 

[Valhalla]

Except that broken bones erza doesn't mean MP also decreases. I think disagree erza slash>any of Wendy attacks even with her ds advantage I doubt she has enough power to hurt Irene skin Wendy isn't that powerful. Human Irene over Wendy. even when wendy had Irene body she was stronger than Irene in Wendy body. Plus like i said be4 Irene biltz her from the get go

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 24, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 24, 2017 ---

When was it confirm that he used DF together with wsdm???

Ok this was not stated, but based on the look you can tell its DF. If you look at Stings markings on his face in chapter 295 when he went DF in GMG, they are the same as the markings on his face at the end of chapter 511 and in chapter 512 when he was fighting Rakheid. Based on that i think he went dual and DF.

 

[Raven]

I picked Natsu Dragneel due to the fact that he is the strongest mage only Zeref and Acnologia who are stronger and ofc he is my baby fire dragon slayer

, Lucy Heartfilia i think she will display more feats soon and maybe there is a chance to see Celestial king's dress i'm sure this will make her climb the ranked power ladder so fast and ofc she is my a baby celestial mage

.

My remaining two votes goes for Mira-Jan and Sting because i think they out class the rest excluding Irene and God Serena.

 

[Seven777]

Gemini was able to copy Lucy even during the Oracion Seis arc, so we know that even with Angel's power she could have copied Lucy herself. I don't think Gemini's MP was that much off from Lucy's own in the first place, at least not during Oracion.

Lucy's spirits are not the same thing as Neinhart's historia. Neinhart literally creates his Historia with his magical power. Lucy's spirits exist whether or not she is their owner. They can have a completely different owner. Lucy can even die, and some Spirits like Loke can still exists with their own supply of magical power. The fact that Lucy's spirits have their own MP means that Lucy probably doesn't supply the spirits with the vast majority of their power if the spirit is several times stronger than Lucy herself.

Loke was never really weaker than Bixlow. Landing a bruise on Jacob isn't really that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Mirajane could do the same in her base form.

Gemini could already copy Lucy during the Oracion Seis arc. Remember, Lucy's spirit can be as strong as their own magical power + whatever power Lucy can spare. If Gemini's power is closed to a decent fraction of Lucy's own (more than the power it takes for Lucy to open the gate), then Lucy can always spare enough power for Gemini to copy someone around her level. Loke was never weaker than Bixlow. Bruising Jacob isn't that large of a feat in the grand scheme of things. Mirajane can do arguably the same thing with no takeovers. Regulus Lucy kick + Natsu's kick were both relatively weak attacks, and probably weren't on the level of attacks that could take out a pre-TS top tier like Zero or Bluenote.

The spirits having their own MP supplies makes a huge difference. First of all, it means that Lucy's Celestial Spirit Magic works nothing like Neinhart's Historia. Neinhart is literally creating his Historia from scratch, like Rustyrose is with his arc of creation. Lucy doesn't create the spirits. Celestial Spirit Magic's primary function is opening the gates. The spirits exists whether or not Lucy is their owner. In fact, spirits like Loke can go in the human world whether or not he has a living owner. Since all the spirits have their own magical power, spirits that are several times stronger than Lucy likely don't get the majority of their magical power from Lucy. Lucy ran out of magical power after she casted Urano Metria against Jackal. The Celestial Spirit King used his Galaxia Blade after that, meaning that move was probably done with his own power. He probably started to move slower because he had to use more magical power to keep his own gate open.

Again, if you want to go down the path of speculation, whose to say that Anna didn't secretly fetch Aquarius' key and that she will be the one to summon the Spirit King? Lucy didn't receive a massive boost to her own MP in Tartarus. She received the ability to use star dresses, which is when she borrows her spirits magical power to power herself. We don't actually have any indications that Lucy's own magical reserves has improved dramatically. She may have trained a bit over the timeskip and gotten stronger over that, but it was nothing like the rate of growth we've seen in other characters. I'm willing to say that Lucy's growth could have potentially evolved CSK from Mard's level to a relatively strong Spriggan. I'm not willing to say that CSK is now at Zeref's/August/Irene's level, seeing as that is several times stronger than the nearest canon showing of the Spirit King.

Your first and second comment are pretty similar so i'll reply to them together.
Im not sure what you mean by the first part. Yes, Gemini could copy Lucy, but so what? That just means Gemini while under their own power were on par with or stronger than Lucy. Doesnt change the fact that its an iron clad rule that while summoned under a Celestial Wizard Gemini can only copy someone who is on par with or weaker than their summoner. The stronger the summoner, the more powerful people Gemini can copy, under Angel they were able to copy freaking Gray.

Even if they arent the same as Neinharts historia, it is still a fact that the stronger Lucy becomes, the stronger they are. Them having MP of their own doesnt change anything because as long as they're summoned into this world by Lucy, she is the one supporting that MP. Sure, Loke can support himself on his own power, but he was clearly weakening each day.
The fact that Gemini needs Lucy to be as strong as the person they want to copy implies that yeah, they scale with Lucy's strength. The CSK being noted to weaken just as Lucy expended her power defeating Jackal implies the same.

Your well within your rights to speculate that, but i personally find it unlikely that they'd bring CSK in again, just to be oneshotted. Sacrificing Aquarious again, the person Lucy promised she would find, even if its Anna doing it, seems unlikely not to impact the manga greatly.
Lucy has received a massive boost to magic power since Tartaros, we know this

Spoiler

Her fairly impressive feats(for someone who used to be fodder) like tangling with Brandish(was holding back), aiding Natsu against Jacob, copying Marin definitely supports vast improvement.