...its still hard to believe Hisoka didn't died permanently, i mean how long was it before hisoka was taken by machi after the explosion? a human is only "revive-able" around 7 minutes without oxygen in his brain, else he'll be brain dead. No amount of CPR/resuscitation can bring back a person who was drowned/ suffocated for along period of time.
...its still hard to believe Hisoka didn't died permanently, i mean how long was it before hisoka was taken by machi after the explosion? a human is only "revive-able" around 7 minutes without oxygen in his brain, else he'll be brain dead. No amount of CPR/resuscitation can bring back a person who was drowned/ suffocated for along period of time.
It was probably only a second in my theory.
Hisoka commanded his nen to revive him after he died, so i assume his last brainwaves died exactly when machi was with him.
Remember that it was only doctors thinking that he died from suffocating, they might have done a mistake.
Hisoka could aswell have depleted his nen by blocking as much of the explosion as he could and gone into a state very near death.
In all the confusion, the doctors didnt notice any heartbeat nor checked for brainwaves and thus brought him out of the arena.
There might still have been a very faint heartbeat which slowly faded.
The brain can only survive about 3 minutes without oxygen before it is completely dead. Hisoka was piled underneath about 34,500 lbs of human dead weight before the explosion went off, and he didn't suffer much burn damage, suggesting that he was still under that weight when the explosion finished. His neck was in very bad shape too, meaning his windpipe and/or muscle tissue connections stemming from that area towards his upper back and his head are probably either severed to some extent or badly bruised/misaligned.
It's just my guess, but I'd say he would have had to be completely dead and incapable of using Nen at all before his "Nen" actually returned, which puts him somewhere in the range of 3 minutes-10 minutes. We also don't know how fast Machi, Shalnark, or the paramedics uncovered the body (I'm guessing it was the paramedics first, because of the fact that they knew Hisoka was dead and it was in the news report).
I'm more interested in the method of suffocation, because Hisoka seems to have given his Nen a command before being buried, expelling the air from his lungs in order to do so. This is a different method of asphyxiation than simply holding your breath, because if he'd done that and managed not to expel it, it's likely he'd have survived the explosions and the mass wall of human flesh while he was moving rubble and bodies off of him.
Bear in mind that's just my best guess, based on what I know about human physiology and after having read up a bit on the sequence of events involved when a human being suffocates to death. I don't think Hisoka suffocated due to smoke inhalation or any kind of vacuum, because his lungs would likely have been burned or sullied to the point of not being usable. It was probably due to oxygen not being present at all for him to breathe, on account of all the weight from the bodies.
If he'd been a bit smarter, he could also have grabbed one of the people trying to hold him down and stolen the air out of their body, but Togashi letting Hisoka be smart in this fight wasn't in the cards.
...its still hard to believe Hisoka didn't died permanently, i mean how long was it before hisoka was taken by machi after the explosion? a human is only "revive-able" around 7 minutes without oxygen in his brain, else he'll be brain dead. No amount of CPR/resuscitation can bring back a person who was drowned/ suffocated for along period of time.
That is one of the ambiguous things about the revival. I did some research on google and found that over 10 minutes is the maximum for the cells to survive without oxigen (unless the corpse was put into ice immediately after the heart stopped). To be honest, it really seemed more than 10 minutes has passed since the explosion...But then again it's the spiders which retrived Hisoka's corpse so they could've done it quickly...I don't know why Togashi went into the trouble of explaining that a human head can pack a bunch and didn't bother specifying how much time passed since Hisoka' death...I mean he did specify the time in the Chimera ants arc during the invasion...
That is one of the ambiguous things about the revival. I did some research on google and found that over 10 minutes is the maximum for the cells to survive without oxigen (unless the corpse was put into ice immediately after the heart stopped). To be honest, it really seemed more than 10 minutes has passed since the explosion...But then again it's the spiders which retrived Hisoka's corpse so they could've done it quickly...I don't know why Togashi went into the trouble of explaining that a human head can pack a bunch and didn't bother specifying how much time passed since Hisoka' death...I mean he did specify the time in the Chimera ants arc during the invasion...
Keep in mind that we do not know when exactly hisoka died.
For example, there are people able to hold their breath 20 minutes and turn out just fine.
The brain does not stop to get oxygen the exact moment you stop breathing.
Keep in mind that we do not know when exactly hisoka died.
For example, there are people able to hold their breath 20 minutes and turn out just fine.
The brain does not stop to get oxygen the exact moment you stop breathing.
Now, death seemed to be measured in 'heart stopping' here, because they probably did not check for brainwaves in all that trouble.
They noticed there was no heartbeat when they examined hisoka, and then dragged him away.
That does not mean he had no brainwaves at this point, or probably faint heart or lung movements.
As for the point of death: His command was pretty clear: The nen shall activate after he is dead.
So i would assume he died the moment he was with machi, when his last brainwaves died down, and then his nen activated and let him breathe again by massaging his lung and heart.
that would make sense to me: The time of death would be the time when the loss of oxygen actually caused the brain to die down.
Now, death seemed to be measured in 'heart stopping' here, because they probably did not check for brainwaves in all that trouble.
They noticed there was no heartbeat when they examined hisoka, and then dragged him away.
That does not mean he had no brainwaves at this point, or probably faint heart or lung movements.
As for the point of death: His command was pretty clear: The nen shall activate after he is dead.
So i would assume he died the moment he was with machi, when his last brainwaves died down, and then his nen activated and let him breathe again by massaging his lung and heart.
that would make sense to me: The time of death would be the time when the loss of oxygen actually caused the brain to die down.
I get your point. Me I'm always assuming (to stay as much realistic as possible) that for this revival to work one needs the brain cells to be still functional (meaning that upon receiving oxygen again the person would revive), even after the heart has stopped. For this one needs 10 minutes maximum or else the brain cells will be damaged beyond repair.
Now when you say "the brain waves stopped", do you mean that the brain has just shut all of its functions but the cells are alive ? or do you mean that the cells literally died ?
Cuz if it is the second point then this revival cannot work with CPR at all.
I get your point. Me I'm always assuming (to stay as much realistic as possible) that for this revival to work one needs the brain cells to be still functional (meaning that upon receiving oxygen again the person would revive), even after the heart has stopped. For this one needs 10 minutes maximum or else the brain cells will be damaged beyond repair.
Now when you say "the brain waves stopped", do you mean that the brain has just shut all of its functions but the cells are alive ? or do you mean that the cells literally died ?
Cuz if it is the second point then this revival cannot work with CPR at all.
I mean that this is the point where the braincells would start dying if he would not reanimate himself.
The very point where the braindamage would occur is the point where the nen activates, preventing him from being permanently braindamaged.
I mean that this is the point where the braincells would start dying if he would not reanimate himself.
The very point where the braindamage would occur is the point where the nen activates, preventing him from being permanently braindamaged.
I see, so that means really at the critical point, I agree with that. But I think you also agree that the critical point is at maximum 10 minutes after the heart stopped. And this was not specified. In other posts I am supporting the process of this revival and explaining why, but I am assuming (and hoping) that the "critical point" really happened 10 minutes after the heart stopped. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.
I see, so that means really at the critical point, I agree with that. But I think you also agree that the critical point is at maximum 10 minutes after the heart stopped. And this was not specified. In other posts I am supporting the process of this revival and explaining why, but I am assuming (and hoping) that the "critical point" really happened 10 minutes after the heart stopped. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.
Yes i agree with that, the process should not be streched out too much.
I mean, i would not be mad about 15 minutes, freak cases happen, but to keep it believable, it would make sense that hisoka's heart didnt in fact stop at once.
He might have been alive when they dragged him out and his heart only stopped beating (or was beating very faintly) when they short examined him.
After all, those guys had better things to do than checking for brainwaves. Hisoka looked dead and his body was pretty damaged, no doctor who does not immadietly feel a heartbeat would rather examine him thouroughly instead of helping the other living victims.
The problem is that Machi is standing there with Shalnark and Kortopi. We don't see any other medical personnel in the scene, and it looks as though they've just concluded evaluating Hisoka for any signs of life. Machi has to be thorough, because if Hisoka isn't totally dead, it means Chrollo failed. And she had to stitch him back up post-match, too- his neck was in really bad shape, so I really doubt she'd have missed a pulse.
Well, if we don't assume that nen helps you feeling a pulse, i don't see why machi should not have a chance of failing when real life medical experts have.
It is also very possible that there in fact was no pulse at that point anymore, but it only stopped recently before machi checked it.
Brainwaves are produced by synchronized electrical pulses emanating from groups of neurons within the brain. We use equipment to monitor those pulses, but if Machi's capable of reading even a faint pulse from a heartbeat, she should also be capable of detecting any pulses coming from the brain with her nen threads. After all, she has to account for that sort of thing when doing something like reattaching a limb- the limb has to be able to respond to the "commands" being given by the owner, and those commands are the result of electrical pulses- a command given from the brain to the limb. "It's 100% connected" means her threads can read that sort of thing.
I am not sure whether she can do that.
And even if: She can reattach nerves, But reading brainwaves? I don't think so.
She was also in a situation where it was very unlikely that hisoka still lived: Other medical personal probably declared him dead before dragging him off, he lied unmoving for some time and when machi examined him, he had (probably) no noticeable heart nor lung movement.
The spiders were there to confirm his death. If they wanted to make sure, they wouldnt have needed to do all the effort of checking brainwaves: They coulda cut off his head to make sure.
They didnt, because they actually had no beef with hisoka. Chrollo gave him the option to retreat several times, and i think the spiders were there more just for the information whether he is really dead or not.
In in all realistic likelyhood, he was dead. They probably didnt want to hang out there for too long and only machi stayed behind to give his corpse a treatment.
It is not like the spider (or in that case machi) had such a big problem with hisoka being alive.
Machi even wanted to help him out because she still thought his situation was pretty bad.
I don't find it unrealistic that they didnt go through every medical trick in the book to confirm someone dead who was in hisoka's condition, exspecially if they didnt even really want him dead.
I am pretty sure they are more thourough next time, because now they are definitely going to want him dead.
All HxH humans are capable of superhuman feats that are not possible in real-life. Netero, for example, can move faster than the speed of sound which is physically impossible in real-life. Hisoka can be "dead" for a long time without sustaining any permanent brain damage. Him being revived in-universe is explained with the fact that (1) Hisoka's Nen became stronger after death (which has plenty of precedence) and (2) he can use Bungee Gum on his internal organs, which does not contradict previous showings. Finally, remember this last tidbit: Every time you bring real-life physics into a manga series, God kills a kitten. So save the kittens!
All HxH humans are capable of superhuman feats that are not possible in real-life. Netero, for example, can move faster than the speed of sound which is physically impossible in real-life. Hisoka can be "dead" for a long time without sustaining any permanent brain damage. Him being revived in-universe is explained with the fact that (1) Hisoka's Nen became stronger after death (which has plenty of precedence) and (2) he can use Bungee Gum on his internal organs, which does not contradict previous showings. Finally, remember this last tidbit: Every time you bring real-life physics into a manga series, God kills a kitten. So save the kittens!
It's fine to bring coherence into a manga tho.
And we know that HxH humans have to breathe and usually near the amount of time humans in real life do.
Nen enable humans to do superhuman deeds.
While it is stretched a bit with the hunter exam (people without nen running over amounts of time almost no real life human could), the HxH humans are very near real life humans when they dont have nen.
It's fine to bring coherence into a manga tho.
And we know that HxH humans have to breathe and usually near the amount of time humans in real life do.
Nen enable humans to do superhuman deeds.
While it is stretched a bit with the hunter exam (people without nen running over amounts of time almost no real life human could), the HxH humans are very near real life humans when they dont have nen.
Coherence is only useful in determining whether a manga-ka is consistent with the internal physics as presented in-universe. We know HxH humans need to breath, but you have no proof that it is equivalent to real-life humans. For all we know, they only need a fraction of the air we require since it is fact "normal" HxH humans regularly perform superhuman feats (e.g. Hisoka moving faster than the eye can see without using Nen). This is why readers possess a suspension of disbelief because of the crazy stunts that go on within the manga. Otherwise we'll be spending an eternity nitpicking every detail in the manga.
Coherence is only useful in determining whether a manga-ka is consistent with the internal physics as presented in-universe. We know HxH humans need to breath, but you have no proof that it is equivalent to real-life humans. For all we know, they only need a fraction of the air we require since it is fact "normal" HxH humans regularly perform superhuman feats (e.g. Hisoka moving faster than the eye can see without using Nen). This is why readers possess a suspension of disbelief because of the crazy stunts that go on within the manga. Otherwise we'll be spending an eternity nitpicking every detail in the manga.
I kinda do because we know most of them cannot hold their breath very long.
Gon was already VERY exceptional for being able to hold his breath 10 minutes.
And hisoka couldnt even hold his breath because he was unconscious.
We know they need air arround the same amount of us.
I kinda do because we know most of them cannot hold their breath very long.
Gon was already VERY exceptional for being able to hold his breath 10 minutes.
And hisoka couldnt even hold his breath because he was unconscious.
We know they need air arround the same amount of us.
This is what I mean by nitpicking. Gon, Hisoka, and other characters have pulled off superhuman feats which aren't possible in real-life. Gon breaking Illumi's arm before Gon learned about Nen is but one example. So let's go with your assumption that HxH humans require about the same amount of air as us. Obviously your comparison still falls flat when we consider what said humans are physically capable of. Their metabolism, power output, etc. are vastly superior to what any real-life human can do, and this isn't considering additional factors like gravity, how their bodies are physically structured, etc. In-universe, Hisoka can be dead for an unspecified amount of time and be revived without sustaining permanent brain damage whilst real-life this could never happen. Either way, ultimately this is a continuing demonstration of HxH humans' physical abilities being vastly superior to real-life humans and why it is pointless to bring real-life physics into a fictional series.
This is what I mean by nitpicking. Gon, Hisoka, and other characters have pulled off superhuman feats which aren't possible in real-life. Gon breaking Illumi's arm before Gon learned about Nen is but one example. So let's go with your assumption that HxH humans require about the same amount of air as us. Obviously your comparison still falls flat when we consider what said humans are physically capable of. Their metabolism, power output, etc. are vastly superior to what any real-life human can do, and this isn't considering additional factors like gravity, how their bodies are physically structured, etc. In-universe, Hisoka can be dead for an unspecified amount of time and be revived without sustaining permanent brain damage whilst real-life this could never happen. Either way, ultimately this is a continuing demonstration of HxH humans' physical abilities being vastly superior to real-life humans and why it is pointless to bring real-life physics into a fictional series.
Waiiiiit, you were the one telling me it comes down to coherence, and i agree with that.
but we were told that holding your breath even 5 minutes is something exceptional in the hunter world, leave alone gon's RECORD of then minutes.
Gon breaking illumi's arm is absolutely fine because it is coherent with the story, they did not know nen when opening gates at the zoldyeks home and we were shown that their physical power was higher than that of normal humans with their feats in the hunter exam.
However, saying that hisoka's brain does not need oxygen for more than ten minutes would contradict what we have seen before, so i dont think that this happened.
Waiiiiit, you were the one telling me it comes down to coherence, and i agree with that.
but we were told that holding your breath even 5 minutes is something exceptional in the hunter world, leave alone gon's RECORD of then minutes.
Gon breaking illumi's arm is absolutely fine because it is coherent with the story, they did not know nen when opening gates at the zoldyeks home and we were shown that their physical power was higher than that of normal humans with their feats in the hunter exam.
However, saying that hisoka's brain does not need oxygen for more than ten minutes would contradict what we have seen before, so i dont think that this happened.
My main point is that all HxH humans are capable of superhuman feats (without Nen!) and how pointless it is to bring real-life physics into a fictional series. You keep on bringing up Gon's record at holding his breath. You are aware that Gon's record was established in chapter 31, right? That was long before he improved his physical abilities tremendously. How long he can hold it now is unknown, though he can certainly hold it for far longer now. How long other "athletic" HxH humans (e.g. Hisoka) can go without oxygen is unknown. For all we know they can easily hold their breaths for an hour. It is a trivial matter anyway considering how HxH humans can break the sound barrier without Nen, for example.
Going back on topic, Hisoka's resurrection hasn't violated any internal mechanics of the HxH universe. His resurrection is believable with the explanation we were given, and as you say, there could have been another factor at work we aren't aware of. Nonetheless, as I said, it doesn't violate HxH's internal physics/coherence/whatsoever.
My main point is that all HxH humans are capable of superhuman feats (without Nen!) and how pointless it is to bring real-life physics into a fictional series. You keep on bringing up Gon's record at holding his breath. You are aware that Gon's record was established in chapter 31, right? That was long before he improved his physical abilities tremendously. How long he can hold it now is unknown, though he can certainly hold it for far longer now. How long other "athletic" HxH humans (e.g. Hisoka) can go without oxygen is unknown. For all we know they can easily hold their breaths for an hour. It is a trivial matter anyway considering how HxH humans can break the sound barrier without Nen, for example.
Going back on topic, Hisoka's resurrection hasn't violated any internal mechanics of the HxH universe. His resurrection is believable with the explanation we were given, and as you say, there could have been another factor at work we aren't aware of. Nonetheless, as I said, it doesn't violate HxH's internal physics/coherence/whatsoever.
Why would he be able to hold his breath longer if his muscles are stronger?
He was capable of superhuman strength before, as any other hunter in the hunter exam who got to the end.
There is an established boundary of what can be considered as normal when it comes to holding breath in the hunter world.
Morel is probably the best hunter when it comes to that, and even there leol, a chimera ant, was thinking about him having a lung capacity of roughly 30 minutes of air. And that was WITH holding his breath and possible nen enhancements of his lung capacity.
HxH characters can break the sound barrier, but not without Nen. Hisoka did not have any nen when he was dying, elseways the spiders would have noticed it.
At this point, he was a normal hunterhuman. An unconsicous one without a heartbeat, meaning that the time his brain can hold out is less than when hisoka would have held his breath. Much less.
Your logic would make it equally acceptable if suddenly gon could fight nen users without nen, because it was never said that normal humans cannot eventually surpass nen users. The thing is: It was implied and it would not make any sense together with all the things we have seen so far.
The same goes for the holding breath thing: Whenever air was an issue, the limits were pretty close to the human world, even with exceptional people like gon and morel in a MUCH better condition than hisoka..
Without other factors at work, his ressurection is quite unbelievable and would be plain bad writing.
Togashi can leave it vague and i have enough theories of how it could work to accept it, or he can come up with good reasons for what happened.
But If hisoka actually died due to suffocating it makes no sense at all whatsoever with everything we know about hunter humans.
How is it hard to believe? He literally commanded his nen to bring him back to life and since nen is stronger after death the nen-infused blood was able to revive his dead body. It isn't like he was dead for like a month or a week or something his body didn't even start to decompose. Its not hard to understand at all.
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