Discussion Israeli–Palestinian conflict (Recent Developments)

[Josef]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121115

Well the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine has been having some new developments recently. After a period that was supposed to be more of a diplomatic battle now has turned into a path way to war. What do you think of the newest news coming from this front?

 

[Kaiten]

When was it ever a diplomatic battle? Hamas and Israel have never had open lines of diplomacy. Israel most recently invaded Gaza just four years ago. This is more of the same, nothing new at all for this region. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza are hostile towards each other. There is no direct political coordination between the two entities. Israeli policy towards one though can effect popular opinion in the other, particularly in Gaza, where Hamas uses Israeli policy in East Jerusalem and the West Bank for propaganda purposes. Current Israeli - Palestinian Authority relations would best be described as a Cold War. There is no open armed conflict, nor any real threat, but both entities are openly hostile diplomatically. The PA does recognize Israel's right to exist within the 1948 boundaries, and is currently pushing for a two state solution. Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, openly calling for their complete annihilation. Hamas does not maintain diplomatic relations with Israel, while Israel considers them a "terrorist organization", not to be negotiated with.

Before anyone asks: both sides are to blame. If you're looking for hero's they have to be manufactured, there are only villains. An ugly conflict with no real end in sight.

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------

What is of most interest to me is how the revolution in Egypt effects the Hamas - Israeli conflict. Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi represents the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood's political arm. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Gaza Strip was also formerly administered by the Egyptians, prior to the Six Day War. Egypt currently has vowed to back Gaza against Israeli aggression, though it is doubtful this backing will amount to full military intervention. Even without military intervention, Egypt taking a hardline against Israel for the first time since Camp David could be enough to alter the nature of the conflict. Since 1979 Egyptian non-interference has been the cornerstone of Israeli policy towards the occupied territories.

 

[Josef]

Well there were probably a few attempts but by the West to keeps things or at least make things look like they were heading in a good direction. That news a few months ago about Palestine trying to get a seat at the UN?

Though this may seem like some progress : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_negotiations_between_Israel_and_the_Palestinians_in_2010

But a historic conflict like this with many proxy wars does resemble the cold war. But the thing is that Israel sort of has the upper hand militarily and politically in this. They are a recognized state, that makes the problem historic. As all things, what happened in the past vastly influences now. Winner write history though. But the state of Israel is not created like other historical states. That is the problem, so if Palestine as a state was also created the way Israel was, that would even it out a bit. Still the way that Palestine is presenting itself here does not dwell good for them, since they respond to provocation the way Israel responds to their provocations.

But I am a bit confused as to how the US currently in looking at this problem? I have read a bit, but still a bit foggy, as far as I know they are currently supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood? And as well as Palestine? Are they turning their back on the old allies?

 

[Imperium]

There was a bomb attack in Tel Aviv today, injuring 21 people.

 

[Josef]

Well it seems things have cooled down. It is a small development but it really reflects the overall conflict again, they killed a lot of people for no reason again. And so it continues till the next time things start up on a bigger scale like so. Even though I am not sure if the cease fire is a done deal, yet.

 

[thornofcarrion]

As a human, it grieves me what's happening. On CNN, there was a report saying the recent targeted areas have high ratio of children. Funny, how the super powers have decided not to intervene. They would jump in any other situation when they feel there is injustice. Rather, they took side of the aggressive party in this case. Whether, its Taliban Hamas or Israel, I really really hate how innocent people died. Shame on them.

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

This upset me to the point, I could not eat anything today:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...s-Israel-slams-Kerry/articleshow/39183477.cms

 

[Kaiten]

Hamas uses human shields. They place their rockets in mosques, schools, parks, and private homes then call foul when Israel incidentally kills civilians. As if sending suicide bombers into crowded pizzerias was not problematic. It's war. One can not fire rockets into another country, then act indignant when they retaliate. Hamas has been doing this for 25 years. They are not going to stop now if Israel asks nicely. Hamas does not even recognize Israeli statehood. Violently sweeping Israel into the sea is their stated policy. Their legitimacy is based on violence. Without it they would be swept aside in favor of the Palestinian Authority. Hamas has not shown any enthusiasm for a cease fire, far less than their Israeli counterparts. Their demands for a cease fire are far higher than Israel realistically can agree, without any concessions in return, or laying the ground work for lasting peace. Asking the Egyptians to open the boarder as condition is borderline insane. Sisi obviously is not going to aid Hamas. Demanding Israel end the blockade without major concessions of their own is equally unrealistic. Both sides stink. Their is equal blame to go around. Bibi is a terrible Prime Minister, ignoring the peace process, expanding settlements. Israel must stop building new settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They need to end the blockade on Gaza. They must allow travel to resume between the West Bank and Gaza. All of this must be done as part of the peace process, with the goal in mind of creating a viable Palestinian state. Hamas has never proven willing to negotiate. Given the current situation, it is unlikely Israel will stop until their military goals have been fully realized. With Syria in shambles, Hamas can not rely on aid from Assad or Iran. With Sisi cracking down on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt is as hostile to Hamas as Israel. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is no friend, either. Hamas is as isolated as they have ever been. Israel might take the opportunity to root them out entirely. Hamas has almost no leverage short of recognizing Israel's right to exist. That would be the equivalent of complete surrender.

 

[Drmke]

Hamas uses human shields. They place their rockets in mosques, schools, parks, and private homes then call foul when Israel incidentally kills civilians. As if sending suicide bombers into crowded pizzerias was not problematic. It's war. One can not fire rockets into another country, then act indignant when they retaliate. Hamas has been doing this for 25 years. They are not going to stop now if Israel asks nicely.

OK, well if we are going to lay Hamas' crimes down at their feet we should do the same for
Israel, no? Yes, Hamas is an organization that seems to believe that instigating violence, in some respects, can garner them attention that they are not seeing (their waning popularity you mention), but as you say, they don't have a lot of support which translates fairly well into they don't have much power politically or militarily especially if placed up against the power of Israel and it's IDF.

Israel has built a wall around Gaza, they have consistently kept the Palestinians in a state of helpless poverty (and this is under all administrations obviously to varying degrees), there are serious and powerful calls within Israeli society to completely eliminate the Palestinians either through pushing them somewhere else or ideas far more inhumane, and they basically wage full-scale aerial warfare knowing full-well that airstrikes will only cause damage mostly to civilians. They know Hamas is hiding amongst them and sees it as an opportunity to hurt Hamas' already terrible reputation internationally. We must also consider the fact that the current conflict has resulted in zero Israeli casualties (excluding the three teenagers who were the claimed cause for the conflict even though Israel has admitted their deaths were not caused by Hamas). This downplays Israel's self-defense claim at least in the current conflict.

Hamas does not even recognize Israeli statehood. Violently sweeping Israel into the sea is their stated policy. Their legitimacy is based on violence. Without it they would be swept aside in favor of the Palestinian Authority.

And Israel doesn't recognize the right of Palestine to exist. Also, is Israel's legitimacy not based on violence? The original claim was that Palestine is the ancestral home of the Jewish people and other people living there should live someplace else. With the help of world superpowers, they have manage to forcefully create a state (honestly the way most states are formed) and then have maintained that state through the oppression of the people already present. This is in a similar vein (though with obvious differences) to the formation of the United States and the treatment of Native Americans throughout early colonial society.

Hamas has not shown any enthusiasm for a cease fire, far less than their Israeli counterparts. Their demands for a cease fire are far higher than Israel realistically can agree, without any concessions in return, or laying the ground work for lasting peace. Asking the Egyptians to open the boarder as condition is borderline insane. Sisi obviously is not going to aid Hamas. Demanding Israel end the blockade without major concessions of their own is equally unrealistic. Both sides stink. Their is equal blame to go around. Bibi is a terrible Prime Minister, ignoring the peace process, expanding settlements. Israel must stop building new settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They need to end the blockade on Gaza. They must allow travel to resume between the West Bank and Gaza. All of this must be done as part of the peace process, with the goal in mind of creating a viable Palestinian state. Hamas has never proven willing to negotiate. Given the current situation, it is unlikely Israel will stop until their military goals have been fully realized. With Syria in shambles, Hamas can not rely on aid from Assad or Iran. With Sisi cracking down on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt is as hostile to Hamas as Israel. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is no friend, either. Hamas is as isolated as they have ever been. Israel might take the opportunity to root them out entirely. Hamas has almost no leverage short of recognizing Israel's right to exist. That would be the equivalent of complete surrender.

What can Hamas or the Palestinians demand that would be fair to Israel (in a supremely unfair situation I might add), actually be given to them, and that would help the plight of the Palestinians as a whole? Nothing. I say there is nothing that non-radical peace talks can give us other than at best a continuation of the current status quo.

 

[kkck]

I am not entirely familiar with the situation to be honest however what I can tell is that at this point both sides are brutal, cruel, and too inclined to acts of violence against the other with Israel being in a position of power and neither having any real intentions of compromise. As far as the creation of Israel goes, I don't think that really matters at this point. It has been decades since that and since then immigration has brought to the country millions of people along with the people there that were born there. Giving legitimacy to any claim about Israel not being a state would simply be encouraging a repeat of the worst case scenarios from the original forceful displacement of the people that were in israel in the past which is not something which should be encouraged. Its not necessarily a fair situation but the alternatives would only lead to perpetuating vicious cycles and increase bloodshed. As for a solution, there is none. Neither side has any room for compromise, their only common ground is their mutual hate. Its a situation that has gone on for decades and will continue for god knows how long. I guess the only real plausible solution would be forceful intervention from other nations that stops the brutality against palestinians and stops palestinians themselves from doing something against israel. And even that would probably not help because it actually severely pisses of both sides. So this is likely to be a situation that will continue for years to come and beyond....

 

[thornofcarrion]

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/07/un-spokesman-breaks-down-crying-on-tv-gaza

Yeah, just blame Hamas and the inhumane acts will disappear. Surely, it will make them just in what they are doing.

 

[zelllogan]

The more I try to learn on the subject, the more i am against israel. They are the big power in this conflict. They overreact each time a terrorist act is done. 10 deaths on one side is resulting in 100 victims as retalation. USA is supporting israel because the jewish vote is important for the president. 70% of jewish people in usa voted for obama. If you add the money from goldman sachs and other jewish banks to the equation, you get it. USA is supporting israel for other reasons than morality.

 

[Drmke]

Plus, when Israel behaves and acts normally they are a very important strategic ally for the United States in a similar vein to Saudi Arabia. Of course, Obama, Biden, and Kerry desperately want Israel to stop this, not for humanitarian purposes of course but because they destabilizing the reign in ways that don't benefit them.

 

[DoctorApollo]

The more I try to learn on the subject, the more i am against israel. They are the big power in this conflict. They overreact each time a terrorist act is done. 10 deaths on one side is resulting in 100 victims as retalation. USA is supporting israel because the jewish vote is important for the president. 70% of jewish people in usa voted for obama. If you add the money from goldman sachs and other jewish banks to the equation, you get it. USA is supporting israel for other reasons than morality.

You seem to be using "Israel is stronger" as your excuse for being against Israel? I mean, both sides are doing a lot of shit, and Israel just happens to be way overpowered. That's all there is to it, I would argue.

 

[kkck]

That is true but it also makes the situation get far more complicated. Israel is a nation with a strong military and overall good standards of life. In contrast gaza is a weak economy with a blockade. Israel would never look good, it looks downright abusive. And then there is the consideration that the situation is rather extreme on multiple angles. People at gaza have legitimate reasons to not like israel and on top of that you have hamas whose covenant has borderline cartoony levels of villainy; its a weird mess of anti imperialism, antisemitism, a bit of genocide, conspiracy theories and nationalism. They also do not mention actually improving the lifestyle of people at gaza as far as I could read. To boot, hamas has attacked israel.... They haven't killed a lot of people but they have injured a more than significant number of people along with other sort of damage associated with bombings.

There is a truce right now although to be honest I doubt it will last long. The hamas covenant explicitly says there is no room or tolerance for peace with israel and whatnot.

 

[M3J]

The Hamas use innocent citizens as shields, right?

Israel acknowledged this, right? Yet they continue to attack and cause tremendous destruction in an attempt to take out Hamas. There is no excuse for Israel's actions. It's no different from a military force throwing a grenade in building full of hostages just to take out the terrorists when they have other methods. Side with Israel if you want, but you can't defend them lying or causing the deaths of innocent citizens just because Hamas use them as shields.

 

[Drmke]

The Hamas use innocent citizens as shields, right?

Israel acknowledged this, right? Yet they continue to attack and cause tremendous destruction in an attempt to take out Hamas. There is no excuse for Israel's actions. It's no different from a military force throwing a grenade in building full of hostages just to take out the terrorists when they have other methods. Side with Israel if you want, but you can't defend them lying or causing the deaths of innocent citizens just because Hamas use them as shields.

Other than the Israeli media and government claiming this, it has not be reported by anyone. Even Amnesty International, who from what I understand has conducted a month-long investigation on the ground in the Gaza Strip, has said that no one is using "human shields" in the fighting. I keep seeing people falling for this obvious de-humanization technique that is used against every "Other" that has ever existed. When people start claiming the "Other" doesn't care about their children, this is when you know you are hearing pure propaganda.

But you are right Milly, even if Hamas was holding children, firing rockets at them is still killing the children. That would just mean both parties were to blame for the murder.

And I don't mean to be overly antagonistic towards anyone with my remarks, but what is being said about this situation is very disturbing to me.

 

[kkck]

I am not actually siding with Israel, I simply pointed out the cartoon levels of villainy which hamas has going on. I don't actually agree with the bombings. I do think the situation was ultimately inevitable considering hamas has no interest whatsoever in peace or in not killing israel (though the bombings probably make this situation worst).

 

[Drmke]

I just don't know about Hamas not wanting peace. Maybe certain people in the organization or it's head or whatever, but surely those individuals being bombed and killed directly would at least be open to some sort of serious (and by serious I mean Israel will at least have to begin reversing the horrible conditions of Palestinians) peace talks. Maybe I'm wrong, the media in all countries doesn't giver Hamas any real tv time so all we know about them is what others have said. I just find it strange that we say Hamas doesn't want peace but Israel does though both have continued fighting since their existence. To me, Hamas doesn't fill terribly different than your average right-wing militant organization that pops up in nearly every country including the US (I'm thinking the KKK for instance). Though honestly, the KKK has a much more serious history with terrorism than Hamas does.

 

[kkck]

Well, there is a significant relevance difference between KKK and Hamas. Hamas has control of the area and plays a part in what is going on. KKK has long fallen into irrelevance nowadays and at large has at most a few thousand members in a nation with 300 million people. Some people have more facebook followers than that. Anyways, my beef with hamas is their covenant. For these guys peace with Israel is by definition defeat, they reject it at their core. Even the recognition of Israel as a state is unfathomable to them. And the ones who pay for that are the people (both from israel and gaza but mostly gaza).

 

[Drmke]

Eh, I was kinda referring to the hay day of the KKK but it doesn't really matter I guess.

However, that charter is from the 80s. Do we have any proof of them still holding to those ideals? I personally haven't seen anyone point to anything other than that charter for those claims. So I don't know if they still adhere to any of that or not.