Of course they don't have independent sources of magic power. Both Ice-make and devil slaying magic use Gray's MP. Nevertheless, Gray's MP changes properties whenever he taps into devil slaying magic. Ice-Make and Devil Slaying magic have different properties. It is this change was what halved the effectiveness of Hakune's freezing.
Gray did attempt to tap into his ice-magic. Gray's resistance to ice is part of his ice-make magic. When Hakune started freezing Gray, she stopped him from using ice-make magic. That's why Gray was surprised. He thought he should have better ice resistance than most people, but Hakune was negating his magic and freezing him as if he had no resistance. Later we see Hakune start to freeze Gray again, but midway through Gray still managed to change the properties of his MP.
This tells us that Hakune doesn't completely freeze someone's MP reserves immediately. They have time before they're fully encased to change the MP inside their bodies.
The property of magic power is simply ethernano. Gray doesn't change the properties of this.
He can change the properties of his magic type (aka Ice-Make vs. Devil Slaying Magic), but Hakune freezes the sourceitself (ethernano/magic power), not just specific types of magic.
So Gray is simply not switching between Ice-Make and Devil Slaying Magic since he always retains the former. And his base form isn't a separate magic type either.
As for the ice resistance, I don't believe that is directly a part of his Ice-Make magic, which is why he was simply making observations instead of trying to counter it like Natsu.
As for Hakune's hax, I am entirely certain that she can freeze someone's MP immediately, as evidenced by the fact that Natsu could not produce any fire from the moment that he was partially frozen.
This is as close to actual proof as we can possibly get from the manga without speculation. This isn't just portrayal or hype, this is a feat.
Yes im telling u that he broke out of it using DES magic so it’s mean she has a limit like I said be4 by this logic she can oneshot Selene.
second yes I can because gray broke out with stronger form/mode I mean des increase his stats bro. Hakune freezing base natsu just means she can only freezing them in the base form. natsu also has a stronger mode which is lfd/ldfm unless ur saying hakune>gray>natsu then that’s a whole another debate.
third because she couldn’t lol or else she wouldn’t giving that explanation of how gray was able to break out of it and she said she was getting overwhelmed. we all know hiro does not explain stuff in for detail very well so I’m going on what we saw in the manga. Gray used DES (in which increase his power/stats) and broke out. Again laxus till oneshots/counter her hax man
Sure, Hakune has a limit, and it was Gray changing his magic power that defined that limit.
It doesn't mean that just anyone can replicate this feat, especially when Natsu's MP was shown to freeze to the point where he could not access his flames.
And again, I'll repeat myself, I do not believe in this whole "transformation nullification theory" that was made up by fans in an attempt to explain what happened canonically. That theory is not supported anywhere in the manga.
So simply being able to transform beyond a base form does not explain the counter to Hakune's hax according to her own statement.
Hakune was getting overwhelmed because she tried to beat Gray's Ice Knights through brute force alone. Never once did she try the method of attempting to freeze them.
Well first, the fact that DeS is still magic and uses MP is exactly the definition of Hakune's hax abilities. It was shown to work on Natsu, so this is 100% evidence from the manga, no speculation at all.
Second, you can't just take a feat from Gray and all of a sudden assume that Laxus can replicate it, especially when Natsu attempted and failed in his encounter with Hakune.
Third, let me correct you: Hakune never tried to freeze Gray's knights.
There is absolutely no evidence from the chapter that shows Hakune couldn't freeze them... because she never attempted to do so in the first place.
So no, Laxus sending some lightning bolts isn't going to guarantee his victory.
On the other hand, Gray was able to counter Hakune's hax, even though the method wasn't explained clearly by their author. However, a feat is still a feat. We can't argue with what we saw from our own eyes.
1) Natsu didn’t attempt this at all. An since Laxus can pull the exact same move, there is no reason to suggest he can’t do so here, other than implying Natsu couldn’t when we know he didn’t get a chance to try in the first encounter and didn’t run into her again. Please stop confusing powering up with changing the qualities of their magic. IE elemental magic to slayer magics.
2) She was barely able to freeze his attacks before they reached her. Laxus lightning is much faster, so what evidence suggests she can freeze it without warning?
3) The author explained plenty, he changed his magic power and it halved her effect which he was able to shrug off. A technique available to Laxus.
The property of magic power is simply ethernano. Gray doesn't change the properties of this.
He can change the properties of his magic type (aka Ice-Make vs. Devil Slaying Magic), but Hakune freezes the sourceitself (ethernano/magic power), not just specific types of magic.
So Gray is simply not switching between Ice-Make and Devil Slaying Magic since he always retains the former. And his base form isn't a separate magic type either.
As for the ice resistance, I don't believe that is directly a part of his Ice-Make magic, which is why he was simply making observations instead of trying to counter it like Natsu.
As for Hakune's hax, I am entirely certain that she can freeze someone's MP immediately, as evidenced by the fact that Natsu could not produce any fire from the moment that he was partially frozen.
This is as close to actual proof as we can possibly get from the manga without speculation. This isn't just portrayal or hype, this is a feat.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Sure, Hakune has a limit, and it was Gray changing his magic power that defined that limit.
It doesn't mean that just anyone can replicate this feat, especially when Natsu's MP was shown to freeze to the point where he could not access his flames.
And again, I'll repeat myself, I do not believe in this whole "transformation nullification theory" that was made up by fans in an attempt to explain what happened canonically. That theory is not supported anywhere in the manga.
So simply being able to transform beyond a base form does not explain the counter to Hakune's hax according to her own statement.
Hakune was getting overwhelmed because she tried to beat Gray's Ice Knights through brute force alone. Never once did she try the method of attempting to freeze them.
Ok by changing his power by doing what? he just power up to Des I mean what else is different? I mean again ur saying with that logic she oneshot every1 in the verse except gray I mean come on like use some sense here.
Mp is till MP ur making seem like gray is using some other power that wasn’t mention in the verse. Gray is till using MP rather in base or Des. I’m saying natsu was just being casual/jobbing. Natsu was trying to get out using his regular base fire he does that every time.
I know u don’t believe because ur heavily on her statement she also said no wizard can stand against her which was also. Her statement
Was debunked the moment gray broke out simple.
if u truly believe she can freeze anything then she would have frozen the ice knights but she couldn’t cause they were overwhelming 2.by that logic she can freeze her boss magic meaning hakune>Selene
Sorry I was driving I’m saying ice resistance logic is flawed because both natsu and gray was frozen at the same time. If ice resistance was a factor then gray should have been frozen slower than natsu instead they were frozen at the same time.
Exactly which is why point they both bloodlust so laxus isn’t gonna jab laxus would speedblitz and laxus is faster than gray anyways or break out by sending multiple nukes. Her Arsenal of feats is inferior to laxus
Laxus isn't speed blitzing when Hakune can use her abilities casually with the flick of her hands or eye closed without moving. The amount of feats one has doesn't really mean Laxus has now found a hard counter to Hakune's hax.
The property of magic power is simply ethernano. Gray doesn't change the properties of this.
He can change the properties of his magic type (aka Ice-Make vs. Devil Slaying Magic), but Hakune freezes the sourceitself (ethernano/magic power), not just specific types of magic.
So Gray is simply not switching between Ice-Make and Devil Slaying Magic since he always retains the former. And his base form isn't a separate magic type either.
As for the ice resistance, I don't believe that is directly a part of his Ice-Make magic, which is why he was simply making observations instead of trying to counter it like Natsu.
As for Hakune's hax, I am entirely certain that she can freeze someone's MP immediately, as evidenced by the fact that Natsu could not produce any fire from the moment that he was partially frozen.
This is as close to actual proof as we can possibly get from the manga without speculation. This isn't just portrayal or hype, this is a feat.
So? All magic use ethernano, but different magic has still have different properties. Hakune didn't say that Gray changed his magic power into curse or spiritual power. Gray doesn't have to change his magic power into something that is not ethernano. He merely has to change the current property of his magic power into a different type of magic power. It doesn't matter if Gray retains the use of his ice-make. The property of his magic power still changes when he starts using devil slaying magic, and changes again when he stops using it. That alone is enough to halve the effectiveness of Hakune's ice.
Gray's has 2 resistances to ice. One comes from his ice-make magic, and the other comes from his slayer magic. But make no mistake, Gray's resistance to ice is 100% a product of magic. We've gone over this before. It is impossible for a regular human being to become harder to freeze than someone with the superpower to literally set themselves on fire, and Gray is. It is also nonsensical for a regular human being to develop any sort of natural immunity against someone using magic to encase you in ice.
There isn't any speculation going on here. Hakune says that Gray changing his magic power halved the effectiveness of her ice. Just take that at face value. Changing your MP halves the effectiveness of Hakune's ice.
And no, he didn't fail the first time because he never even tried. If you re-read the chapter, it clearly shows Gray merely making an observation about Hakune's chill overcoming his ice resistance. Not once did Gray try to counter Hakune's hax using magic.
As for Suzaku, I wouldn't be riding his hype wave just yet... I've seen plenty of characters in the past who performed "godly" feats and ended up being beaten in the most retarded way. So using feats afterwards for "confirmation" is highly unreliable and naive.
The fact is that we saw feats of both Hakune and Suzaku oneshotting Natsu, so you can't twist their feats and assume for convenience sake that Natsu tried against one, but not the other.
If you go back to my earlier post, I clearly said that "Gray needed Natsu to stall Mard Geer so that he can recover from the effects of absorbing Memento Mori"...
How does the above statement translate into anything about Gray soloing Mard Geer?? It's literally quite the opposite.
Unfortunately, I'm not as biased for my favorite characters as you think I am.
The only thing that I am cautioning you against is being 100% confident that Gray would miss his Zeroth Destruction Bow when it is surely not outside the realm of possibility.
As for Gray's ice clones, it's worked on many formidable enemies in the past, including Silver. And Silver is a superior opponent to Gray, not inferior.
As you can see from these panels, the ice clones tricked Silver - not just once, but twice.
And he did all this by himself without any help.
So actually, Gray does have portrayal and feats of his ice clones being able to trick opponents on the level of Mard Geer.
And I'm not sure I follow. Hakune does have feats of being able to freeze someone's MP and freeze their oncoming attacks in a matter of a split second. All it requires her to do is lift her hand and do nothing afterwards (standing still/closing her eyes). Both of which are actually supported by panels.
And just because Laxus has fast spells, it has nothing to do with him being able to "lift his hands first".
Anyone can lift their hands instantly. You don't need lightning for this, all you need is consciousness.
And sure, Laxus launched his nuke from hundreds of meters in the sky, but against Hakune, he would still have to do the same. And since Ajeel could see it coming, then so can Hakune, which gives her more than enough time to freeze the attack after lifting her hand to freeze Laxus' MP.
And of course Gray's arrows are going to be closer to Hakune... it was fired from a couple yards away. The fact that Ajeel had enough time to stare at the nuke means that Hakune definitely has enough reaction time to freeze it.
As for Gray's Ice Knights, it's not that Hakune couldn't freeze it... it's that she didn't. She never even tried to freeze the Ice Knights.
Also, in order for Racer to be hit by the spell while Gray's reaction speed was significantly slowed down, that means that the actual speed of his spell had to have been fast enough to make up for the lost time in reaction speed.
Sure, Gray had trouble when Racer was attacking him, but the fact that Gray could block Racer from chasing Natsu/Wendy by casting Rampart right in front of Racer's path speaks volume to his attack speed.
And yet here you are, riding Hakune's hype despite being so much less impressive.
I don't need to twist feats, Suzaku's feats are just better, as in basically in another universe. And I can assume Natsu wasn't trying as hard, it happens all the time. Otherwise we might as well just claim Gajeel=Aldoron
According to you, Gray could've hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow if he tried, which means he could've killed Mard before he used Memento Mori.
I'm not %100 confident of anything. I am however %99.999 confident Gray is too slow to hit Mard Geer with Zeroth Longbow, even with Base Natsu as a distraction, because that was the point of the fight.
Silver being superior to Gray doesn't mean it can work on Mard Geer, or even the likes of Jiemma. Gray doesn't have the feats for using it against that tier.
No she doesn't, Hakune has feats of freezing an attack and then afterwards freezing MP.
No, Laxus doesn't just have fast spells, he is physically leagues faster than Hakune. So yeah, he lifts his hand first.
No he wouldn't, Laxus is immune to lightning, he could nuke from 10 meters away, Hakune wouldn't even perceive it. Not that Hakune has feats of freezing magic on an opponent that far away.
Why would Ajeel seeing Laxus nuke mean Hakune has time to freeze it? Hakune has no speed feats that suggests she is faster than Ajeel's eyes.
Doesn't matter if she never tried, the fact remains the same, she has no feats on the level of freezing something of that scale or power. Even her snow tsunami was barely building size. The fact that she was beaten by the spell is just the gravy on top
So? I didn't say Gray had slow reaction speed. I actually think Gray's reaction speed and CQC are pretty good. Doesn't change the fact that Hakune negating his spells is so mediocre that virtually every other opponent he has ever faced has done the same. Put simply, being able to freeze one of Gray's spells doesn't equate to being able to freeze one of Laxus's.
Why are you arguing like Hakune did something unique? Like, what is so unbelievable in freezing Natsu? Silver did it. Wouldn't Tartaros DF Natsu be able to free himself? I doubt. Invel froze Gray's attack too. He froze his body. He took two DeS swords off-guard and then blocked another one like it was nothing. Invel's ice magic >>>>> Gray's. And still Gray beat him with a mere punch. Hakune did much less impressive than Invel. And what? Natsu broke his ice. And also we know that Laxus is much stronger than regular spriggans.
Why is this even a debate???
1) Natsu didn’t attempt this at all. An since Laxus can pull the exact same move, there is no reason to suggest he can’t do so here, other than implying Natsu couldn’t when we know he didn’t get a chance to try in the first encounter and didn’t run into her again. Please stop confusing powering up with changing the qualities of their magic. IE elemental magic to slayer magics.
2) She was barely able to freeze his attacks before they reached her. Laxus lightning is much faster, so what evidence suggests she can freeze it without warning?
3) The author explained plenty, he changed his magic power and it halved her effect which he was able to shrug off. A technique available to Laxus.
1) Natsu definitely tried to resist Hakune's hax, and he clearly failed in his attempt. Laxus has literally never shown any feats of being able to counter Hakune's MP freezing ability, so I don't know where you're getting this information from (other than pure assumption/speculation).
Also, you keep bringing up elemental magic vs. slayer magic, but have absolutely no evidence to back up your statements. I am honestly quite surprised that you're basing your entire decision off of a fanmade theory... which doesn't even make any sense.
2) She didn't "barely" do it. She did it without moving and with her eyes closed. In other words, she was 100% confident that the attacks wouldn't hit her. And the attacks were casted only a few yards away from her at tremendous speed.
Honestly, I have no idea where you got the idea that she struggled with freezing attacks... Nowhere was this even implied in the manga.
If anything, it's the exact opposite - as shown by her confident expression vs. Gray's surprised reaction at the attacks being frozen.
The attempt to downplay Hakune is real.
And Laxus' lightning is faster, but it has to travel a farther distance because it starts from extremely high in the sky.
Also, considering that both Ajeel and Wahl noticed the lightning bolt before it struck them, then Hakune will definitely have more of "warning" than she actually needs.
Here's the question that should be asked: What evidence suggests that Laxus can counter Hakune's hax without warning?
3) The author didn't explain anything...
The fact that you're just repeating the exact statement from the manga without offering any other details is blatant proof that you don't get it either.
And now we're saying that Laxus suddenly has access to something thatwas even vague in Gray's case?
C'mon, I'm a Gray fan and even I know that Mashima's explanation was complete garbage... This is ludicrous.
Ok by changing his power by doing what? he just power up to Des I mean what else is different? I mean again ur saying with that logic she oneshot every1 in the verse except gray I mean come on like use some sense here.
Mp is till MP ur making seem like gray is using some other power that wasn’t mention in the verse. Gray is till using MP rather in base or Des. I’m saying natsu was just being casual/jobbing. Natsu was trying to get out using his regular base fire he does that every time.
I know u don’t believe because ur heavily on her statement she also said no wizard can stand against her which was also. Her statement
Was debunked the moment gray broke out simple.
if u truly believe she can freeze anything then she would have frozen the ice knights but she couldn’t cause they were overwhelming 2.by that logic she can freeze her boss magic meaning hakune>Selene
Ask Mashima. "Changing your magic power" is a vague statement and was never explained properly. I'm not the one claiming to understand this whole mechanism like everyone else is trying to do.
And nah, I never said that Hakune can oneshot everyone in the verse except Gray... In fact, with the current feats that we have now, Suzaku still has a decent chance to beat her.
And of course MP is MP. You're confusing me with someone else. I never said Gray had a power separate from MP.
Everyone else is making theories about "MP", not me.
And yes, Natsu was definitely not going all out, butthat's to be expected because the nature of Hakune's hax makes it so that Natsu couldn't go all out.
Same here with Laxus. A full-powered Laxus would win this match, but because of Hakune's hax, it prevents him from going all out. So Hakune has an advantage here.
And sure, Hakune lost at the end, but that's because her hax was somehow countered by Gray.
Without her hax being countered, she actually would've won against Gray.
And I never said that she can freeze anything. But she can definitely freeze MP, as proven by Natsu's case.
As for the Ice Knights, she didn't attempt to freeze them since she was too shocked to react, so we have no idea whether she actually can or cannot do it.
So? All magic use ethernano, but different magic has still have different properties. Hakune didn't say that Gray changed his magic power into curse or spiritual power. Gray doesn't have to change his magic power into something that is not ethernano. He merely has to change the current property of his magic power into a different type of magic power. It doesn't matter if Gray retains the use of his ice-make. The property of his magic power still changes when he starts using devil slaying magic, and changes again when he stops using it. That alone is enough to halve the effectiveness of Hakune's ice.
Gray's has 2 resistances to ice. One comes from his ice-make magic, and the other comes from his slayer magic. But make no mistake, Gray's resistance to ice is 100% a product of magic. We've gone over this before. It is impossible for a regular human being to become harder to freeze than someone with the superpower to literally set themselves on fire, and Gray is. It is also nonsensical for a regular human being to develop any sort of natural immunity against someone using magic to encase you in ice.
There isn't any speculation going on here. Hakune says that Gray changing his magic power halved the effectiveness of her ice. Just take that at face value. Changing your MP halves the effectiveness of Hakune's ice.
"Magic Power" and "Magic" are not exactly interchangeable terms, because one refers to the source itself (MP) and the other refers to the type of magic (Magic).
What Hakune freezes is the source: MP, CP, and Spiritual Power
And the property of "magic power" is ethernano. Sure, Gray's Ice-Make magic and DeS magic have different properties, but that's because they are different magic types.
Also, I disagree with the statement that "the properties of Gray's MP changes when he uses DeS magic". He may be using another type of magic with different properties, but he's not changing anything about the property of ethernano itself.
Like you just said, Gray only has access to MP (ethernano), so all his magic types are derived from the same power source.
And yes, we've definitely gone over ice resistance before.
But I disagree that Gray's ice resistance is a product of magic.
You say it's impossible for a regular human to resist magical flames or ice?
Re-read the Edolas Arc. All of the inhabitants have zero magical power and are basically the equivalent of "regular human beings". And I can assure you that they definitely resisted all kinds of magical spells from the FT members.
And I am taking Hakune at face value, which is the manga's statement that "Changing your magic power halves her freezing spirit art".
What I am not doing is coming up with unproven theories and trying to convince myself that everything makes sense, when it very clearly does not.
And yet here you are, riding Hakune's hype despite being so much less impressive.
I don't need to twist feats, Suzaku's feats are just better, as in basically in another universe. And I can assume Natsu wasn't trying as hard, it happens all the time. Otherwise we might as well just claim Gajeel=Aldoron
According to you, Gray could've hit Mard with Zeroth Longbow if he tried, which means he could've killed Mard before he used Memento Mori.
I'm not %100 confident of anything. I am however %99.999 confident Gray is too slow to hit Mard Geer with Zeroth Longbow, even with Base Natsu as a distraction, because that was the point of the fight.
Silver being superior to Gray doesn't mean it can work on Mard Geer, or even the likes of Jiemma. Gray doesn't have the feats for using it against that tier.
No she doesn't, Hakune has feats of freezing an attack and then afterwards freezing MP.
No, Laxus doesn't just have fast spells, he is physically leagues faster than Hakune. So yeah, he lifts his hand first.
No he wouldn't, Laxus is immune to lightning, he could nuke from 10 meters away, Hakune wouldn't even perceive it. Not that Hakune has feats of freezing magic on an opponent that far away.
Why would Ajeel seeing Laxus nuke mean Hakune has time to freeze it? Hakune has no speed feats that suggests she is faster than Ajeel's eyes.
Doesn't matter if she never tried, the fact remains the same, she has no feats on the level of freezing something of that scale or power. Even her snow tsunami was barely building size. The fact that she was beaten by the spell is just the gravy on top
So? I didn't say Gray had slow reaction speed. I actually think Gray's reaction speed and CQC are pretty good. Doesn't change the fact that Hakune negating his spells is so mediocre that virtually every other opponent he has ever faced has done the same. Put simply, being able to freeze one of Gray's spells doesn't equate to being able to freeze one of Laxus's.
Sure, Natsu didn't try to counter Hakune's hax in the same way that Gray did. But he still tried his best to resist it and couldn't, thereby proving that Hakune indeed as the ability to almost instantly freeze a person's MP.
Sorry, but what hype does Hakune have exactly? She pitifully lost her battle (not her fault though); therefore, she has anything but hype right now...
I am actually not going off her hype at all. Contrarily, I am presenting feats, which is the closest that it's gonna get for a fantasy tournament such as this.
Hakune didn't just freeze fodders. She was able to successfully freeze both Natsu and Gray, so Laxus cannot be ruled out here.
And actually, I would argue that Natsu was trying quite hard against both Suzaku and Hakune. In both cases, he just resorted to using his basic flames. The only difference is that he couldn't access it against Hakune. While against Suzaku, he could, but still got oneshotted.
Now, I will say that Natsu never reached his full power against Hakune, but that is exactly the nature of Hakune's hax. She prevents people from reaching their peak in order to have a chance at victory.
There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the hax of Hakune's spiritual art - I don't see why people are so against it.
And sure, Gray could very well kill Mard Geer with Zeroth Destruction Bow ifhe used it before Memento Mori, but what's stopping Mard Geer from casting Memento Mori right off the bat?
It's called plot. And in the manga, Gray needed Natsu to stall Mard Geer while he was recovering from the effects of Memento Mori.
I see nothing wrong with this route since the manga doesn't operate like a simple tournament does. There is a storyline to follow and the characters aren't just out there to be pitted against one another.
As for Silver, he is definitely on Mard Geer's tier. He's superior to both Gray and Jiemma, but the ice clone trick still worked on him twice. It has to do with strategy, tactics, and intelligence - not tiers.
Hakune definitely has feats of easily freezing a person's attack and freezing their MP near-instantaneously.
The order of the two doesn't matter much because it depends on her intentions.
Also, I don't see how Laxus is physically faster than Hakune in terms of lifting their hand... That's something that any human can do quite instantly.
This battle isn't necessarily about who can lift their hands faster. It's about how their magic/spiritual art works.
As for the distance between them, I'm pretty sure that they start out within visible range of one another. As long as Hakune can see Laxus, I don't see any reason why her MP freezing ability wouldn't work.
And the fact that Ajeel had enough time to stare at the incoming nuke gives Hakune more than enough time to react because she wouldn't even have to move or look at it to freeze it.
Even though Hakune doesn't have feats of freezing large spells, there's nothing to suggest that she couldn't either.
And yes, I do agree with you that freezing Gray's spells is not particularly impressive, but freezing Natsu's MP to the point where he couldn't even produce flames is impressive, in my opinion.
And if she can almost instantly freeze Natsu's MP, then it's not far-fetched for her to freeze Laxus' as well.
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also. Her statement
