Lobadon’s Primal Punch vs Kallavan’s Atomic Explosion

[kkck]

Jinsnug has been said to hold his own againstn CC but in practice that has not happened. Kallavan hard countered him for the most part. Lyborick I would argue did better against kallavan than jinsung did. jinsung didn't have much of an edge against pudily in close quarters. Jinsung can probably punch above his weight class using his tiger dragon floral butterfly but otherwise to me it's difficult to suggest he'd even tie with the known corp commanders (kallavan, lyborick, yaratcha). Lyborick was able to stop a punch from kallavan with his bare hands... even jinsung didn't come close to that.

 

[Demonspeed]

Jinsnug has been said to hold his own againstn CC but in practice that has not happened. Kallavan hard countered him for the most part. Lyborick I would argue did better against kallavan than jinsung did. jinsung didn't have much of an edge against pudily in close quarters. Jinsung can probably punch above his weight class using his tiger dragon floral butterfly but otherwise to me it's difficult to suggest he'd even tie with the known corp commanders (kallavan, lyborick, yaratcha). Lyborick was able to stop a punch from kallavan with his bare hands... even jinsung didn't come close to that.

SIU loves to find excuses for Jinsung's performance more than anyone for some reason. How is Kallavan even a hard counter? Just because he is stronger, more durable and faster? Jinsung's only advantage was his superior martial skill. For me, someone like Lyborick fits more as hard counter since he spams attack at long range.

The "I am rusty" + arm injury(makes no sense when it was regenerating right after his fight + he's been freed for a while) don't seem to matter much really. He still uses his arms and doesn't seem too bothered. He was doing well against Pudidy, but Pudidy also didn't have his Eagle Owl... .

Jinsung is barely CC tier and that's it.

That's probably because Primal Punch is the martial arts name. What I mean is that not every Primal Punch would be taerim. When Cha fought Elbaba, he used Taerim without the "Primal Punch".

Right now I think we go with Primal Punch (regular move) > Primal Punch (killing move) > Primal Punch (transcendent)

Just like he does with shinsoo control skill > Killing Technique > Transcendental Skill

The other option would be that Taerim is a lethal move unrelated to Primal Punch, and Cha was just using the two together. In this case, there is no reason for Robadon not to do the same.

We got this impression because Robadon's punch is superior to most HRs lethal or transcendent skills we've seen.

All I was trying to say was that regular move or not, Primal Punch requires Shinsoo. Lobadon must have other variants, but a move can be strong enough to be a killing move even if the user doesn't state it. That's why I compared it to Floral Butterfly, which is very powerful in base and has other variants depending on the user.

By "regular move" I thought you were saying that it was a simple physical punch, which doesn't require Shinsoo.

 

[kkck]

SIU loves to find excuses for Jinsung's performance more than anyone for some reason. How is Kallavan even a hard counter? Just because he is stronger, more durable and faster? Jinsung's only advantage was his superior martial skill. For me, someone like Lyborick fits more as hard counter since he spams attack at long range.

The "I am rusty" + arm injury(makes no sense when it was regenerating right after his fight + he's been freed for a while) don't seem to matter much really. He still uses his arms and doesn't seem to bothered. He was doing well against Pudidy, but Pudidy also didn't have his Eagle Owl... .

Jinsung is barely CC tier and that's it.

I think the framing was strictly the durability bit. Since no matter how hard jinsung punched he barely did any damage. Which in fairness is a weird framing since being invulnerable is technically always a hard counter.

At least against pudily jinsung said his arms won't last long iirc. To me the matchup against pudily was generally pretty favorable towards pudily over him lacking the eagle owl and his capacity to hold his own in close quarters. You'd think a ha would be more overwhelming against someone presumably in his tier in CQC.

What siu usually tries, unsuccessfully, is to frame battles as having caveats and video game like advantages and disadvantages. Within that I'd argue the meta is folk like kallavan or princesses who can simply can take damage and deal it. But SIU ultimately does not end up conveying that in fights.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

SIU loves to find excuses for Jinsung's performance more than anyone for some reason. How is Kallavan even a hard counter? Just because he is stronger, more durable and faster? Jinsung's only advantage was his superior martial skill. For me, someone like Lyborick fits more as hard counter since he spams attack at long range.

The "I am rusty" + arm injury(makes no sense when it was regenerating right after his fight + he's been freed for a while) don't seem to matter much really. He still uses his arms and doesn't seem to bothered. He was doing well against Pudidy, but Pudidy also didn't have his Eagle Owl... .

Jinsung is barely CC tier and that's it.



All I was trying to say was that regular move or not, Primal Punch requires Shinsoo. Lobadon must have other variants, but a move can be strong enough to be a killing move even if the user doesn't state it. That's why I compared it to Floral Butterfly, which is very powerful in base and has other variants depending on the user.

By "regular move" I thought you were saying that it was a simple physical punch, which doesn't require Shinsoo.

I see. Then our thoughts are similar. I was only using "killing move" in the context SIU add to the title of some move.

 

[Big-Bird]

Jinsnug has been said to hold his own againstn CC but in practice that has not happened. Kallavan hard countered him for the most part. Lyborick I would argue did better against kallavan than jinsung did. jinsung didn't have much of an edge against pudily in close quarters. Jinsung can probably punch above his weight class using his tiger dragon floral butterfly but otherwise to me it's difficult to suggest he'd even tie with the known corp commanders (kallavan, lyborick, yaratcha). Lyborick was able to stop a punch from kallavan with his bare hands... even jinsung didn't come close to that.

and yet
SIU did say that Jinsung would easily beat people that Kallavan would find hard to beat (even if I don't know who these guys are supposed to be and if they're in this room with us).

Kallavan and Jinsung are at the same level.
Kallavan vs Jinsung just seems to be a case of what happens when you come across you hard counter, you get ragdoll.

 

[Demonspeed]

I think the framing was strictly the durability bit. Since no matter how hard jinsung punched he barely did any damage. Which in fairness is a weird framing since being invulnerable is technically always a hard counter.

At least against pudily jinsung said his arms won't last long iirc. To me the matchup against pudily was generally pretty favorable towards pudily over him lacking the eagle owl and his capacity to hold his own in close quarters. You'd think a ha would be more overwhelming against someone presumably in his tier in CQC.

What siu usually tries, unsuccessfully, is to frame battles as having caveats and video game like advantages and disadvantages. Within that I'd argue the meta is folk like kallavan or princesses who can simply can take damage and deal it. But SIU ultimately does not end up conveying that in fights.

I agree. I don't know if it's simply because SIU is better at it, but Fishermen are usually more impressive(they are called the best Position in general but still).

and yet
SIU did say that Jinsung would easily beat people that Kallavan would find hard to beat (even if I don't know who these guys are supposed to be and if they're in this room with us).

Kallavan and Jinsung are at the same level.
Kallavan vs Jinsung just seems to be a case of what happens when you come across you hard counter, you get ragdoll.

Exactly. That's what I was talking about regarding Jinsung and SIU. Kallavan and Jinsung are definitely not at the same level, the gap increased even more with the timeskip + whatever happened when he faced Lyborick(assuming it's permanent).

Both are Fishermen who fight the same way. Kallavan isn't a hard counter, his stats are just superior. But Jinsung's only wincon against him is Dragon Tiger Gate. Dumas is more of a hard counter to him, because of his speed, power and ranged attacks.

 

[kkck]

I agree. I don't know if it's simply because SIU is better at it, but Fishermen are usually more impressive(they are called the best Position in general but still).

Welp, it plays into the meta thing I mentioned. The meta I argue is essentially beingn indestructible. The fisherman position in turn is described as one that requires fighters to jump headfirst into the fray and potentially engage with multiple enemies while the others support them. Being indestructible is obviously a convenient trait for this. The remaining positions in turn are specifically framed as inferior combat wise. And to that add a layer that positions aren't exactly meant for combat against other people but rather shineuh and tests. When it comes to man to man combat the meta overall I would argue favors those with tough hides but people with less meta traits can still be powerhouses. The koon are spear bearers and in theory a needle is superior and faster than a spear in close range but we know some spearbearing techniques are effective for fishermen (of course this is video game logic, if real life logic worked a needle would be worthless against a spear). Bam has a weak body (even now at least compared to the people he is up against) but he has a versatile mid range skillset and risky techniques which counter people who are particularly durable (and of course shreds those who aren't).

 

[Big-Bird]

Exactly. That's what I was talking about regarding Jinsung and SIU. Kallavan and Jinsung are definitely not at the same level, the gap increased even more with the timeskip + whatever happened when he faced Lyborick(assuming it's permanent).

Both are Fishermen who fight the same way. Kallavan isn't a hard counter, his stats are just superior. But Jinsung's only wincon against him is Dragon Tiger Gate. Dumas is more of a hard counter to him, because of his speed, power and ranged attacks.

I just said that despite what SIU said, we've never seen a guy who fits into that category, so it's hard to imagine what kind of character would be a hard counter to Kallavan.

SIU made us understand that Kall and Jinsung were on the same level, so I'm rolling with it and I don't think to much about it

 

[kkck]

I just said that despite what SIU said, we've never seen a guy who fits into that category, so it's hard to imagine what kind of character would be a hard counter to Kallavan.

SIU made us understand that Kall and Jinsung were on the same level, so I'm rolling with it and I don't think to much about it

Naturally someone even harder than kallavan.

 

[Kiibou]

SIU messed up hard with Kallavan.

his defense is top tier, his offense is strong and his speed is nothing to scoff at either. Even his stamina is robust. There is no character that can beat Kallavan but lose easily to Jinsung. That doesn’t exist.

 

[Demonspeed]

I just said that despite what SIU said, we've never seen a guy who fits into that category, so it's hard to imagine what kind of character would be a hard counter to Kallavan.

SIU made us understand that Kall and Jinsung were on the same level, so I'm rolling with it and I don't think to much about it

But they are not... That's what I am saying. It's just SIU trying to not make Jinsung look bad, despite the feats showing that he's not at his level.

A hard counter for Kallavan would be a long ranged fighter who can spam attacks strong and fast enough to break his defense and stop him from approaching.

 

[kkck]

Welp, kallavan is indestructible, you'd think there aren't hard counters to him. So far the things that have been most effective against him are arie swordsmanship and floral butterfly. Lyborick did pretty well against him but that's mostly simply lyborick being a monster as well. And that only lasted until lyborick gave kallavan a free powerup. So far I would argue the real counter to kallavan is simply being stronger than him. Which is how SIU has framed a bunch of stuff like reverse flow control...

 

[Demonspeed]

SIU messed up hard with Kallavan.

his defense is top tier, his offense is strong and his speed is nothing to scoff at either. Even his stamina is robust. There is no character that can beat Kallavan but lose easily to Jinsung. That doesn’t exist.

It's not Kallavan. It's SIU's portrayal of Jinsung that's bad.

Welp, kallavan is indestructible, you'd think there aren't hard counters to him. So far the things that have been most effective against him are arie swordsmanship and floral butterfly. Lyborick did pretty well against him but that's mostly simply lyborick being a monster as well. And that only lasted until lyborick gave kallavan a free powerup. So far I would argue the real counter to kallavan is simply being stronger than him. Which is how SIU has framed a bunch of stuff like reverse flow control...

Yes, you just need to be stronger than him. Lobadon, Dumas, the current Yama, Kirin are clearly stronger.

When SIU compared him to Yasratcha and said they were in the same ballpark but Kallavan had more raw power and Yasratcha more well rounded, that actually made sense unlike that bad MU stuff for Jinsung.

I wouldn't say that Arie Swordsmanship is super effective or anything. White still needs enough raw power to be able to damage him. Maschenny said that the best way to fight Aries is to tank and keep attacking them, which is pretty much Kallavan's style.

 

[kkck]

Yes, you just need to be stronger than him. Lobadon, Dumas, the current Yama, Kirin are clearly stronger.

When SIU compared him to Yasratcha and said they were in the same ballpark but Kallavan had more raw power and Yasratcha more well rounded, that actually made sense unlike that bad MU stuff for Jinsung.

I wouldn't say that Arie Swordsmanship is super effective or anything. White still needs enough raw power to be able to damage him. Maschenny said that the best way to fight Aries is to tank and keep attacking them, which is pretty much Kallavan's style.

Hard to say how much stronger kallavan is now. To me it honestly looks like kallavan is being set up to fight with some incredibly powerful fighters. Kallavan even before that was so damn durable that he basically took no damage from jinsung's punches. In some cases it's hard to imagine who in his tier could injure him..

Nah, I wouldn't say it's super effective. But it is still framed as the most potent combat style in the tower and it actually pushed kallavan. Back then kallavan exploded his wounded arm to avoid more serious damage...

 

[Big-Bird]

A hard counter for Kallavan would be a long ranged fighter who can spam attacks strong and fast enough to break his defense and stop him from approaching.

It can't be, Kallavan's counters would be countered by Jinsung
a guy who could spam long-range attacks strong enough to overwhelm Kallavan's defense without him managing to get close, would blow through Jinsung

the kind of guy Jinsung counters should be the kind who is at a disadvantage against Jinsung's martial arts and flow control skills, while still being able to make Kallavan's defense non-threatening

 

[Demonspeed]

It can't be, Kallavan's counters would be countered by Jinsung
a guy who could spam long-range attacks strong enough to overwhelm Kallavan's defense without him managing to get close, would blow through Jinsung

the kind of guy Jinsung counters should be the kind who is at a disadvantage against Jinsung's martial arts and flow control skills, while still being able to make Kallavan's defense non-threatening

That's why I am saying that SIU was trying too hard to defend Jinsung. It doesn't make sense to say that Jinsung can defeat with ease certain opponents who would be difficult for Kallavan. Both are the same type of fighters. For this to be true, he'd need to face a perfect counter specifically made to defeat him. Many opponents like that can't exist.

Also, Kallavan has good CQC, he was trained by Jinsung himself and he is a great Fisherman.

 

[kkck]

That's why I am saying that SIU was trying too hard to defend Jinsung. It doesn't make sense to say that Jinsung can defeat with ease certain opponents who would be difficult for Kallavan. Both are the same type of fighters. For this to be true, he'd need to face a perfect counter specifically made to defeat him. Many opponents like that can't exist.

Also, Kallavan has good CQC, he was trained by Jinsung himself and he is a great Fisherman.

Hmm, I do think there's a core difference between jinsung and kallavan as fighters. They are pretty similar of course but I would argue kallavan has a range advantage. The essence of bravery basically allows kallavan to imbue his punches with explosions which are pretty effective at short and mid range. Strictly speaking kallavan seems like a superior version of jinsung. Jinsung's reinforced attacks can at best do marginal damage to kallavan while kallavan's essence of bravery hits hard and wide enough to nullify jinsung's martial advantage. jinsung's only move that works is the tiger dragon gate. It's literally sink or swim here.

Jinsung has an edge in terms of martial arts and almost definitely reinforcement over kallavan but neither of those is powerful enough to get through his innate hardness. The only scenario where I can imagine jinsung beating someone kallavan can't is when the tiger dragon gate hail mary is the only thing that can even do anything at all. But an scenario like that seems improbable. Overall I think SIU originally envisioned kallavan a bit different but he made him way too durable and his essence of bravery way too hard hitting for that to actually make sense.

kallavan was not actually trained by jinsung though. They met a couple times and fought way back in the day. Jinsung was kallavan's teacher only in influencing to take the essence of bravery as a worthy vessel and aim for greater things. But jinsung didn't teach him anything related to combat.

 

[Demonspeed]

Hmm, I do think there's a core difference between jinsung and kallavan as fighters. They are pretty similar of course but I would argue kallavan has a range advantage. The essence of bravery basically allows kallavan to imbue his punches with explosions which are pretty effective at short and mid range. Strictly speaking kallavan seems like a superior version of jinsung. Jinsung's reinforced attacks can at best do marginal damage to kallavan while kallavan's essence of bravery hits hard and wide enough to nullify jinsung's martial advantage. jinsung's only move that works is the tiger dragon gate. It's literally sink or swim here.

Jinsung has an edge in terms of martial arts and almost definitely reinforcement over kallavan but neither of those is powerful enough to get through his innate hardness. The only scenario where I can imagine jinsung beating someone kallavan can't is when the tiger dragon gate hail mary is the only thing that can even do anything at all. But an scenario like that seems improbable. Overall I think SIU originally envisioned kallavan a bit different but he made him way too durable and his essence of bravery way too hard hitting for that to actually make sense.

kallavan was not actually trained by jinsung though. They met a couple times and fought way back in the day. Jinsung was kallavan's teacher only in influencing to take the essence of bravery as a worthy vessel and aim for greater things. But jinsung didn't teach him anything related to combat.

I agree with pretty much everything but I'd say Jinsung is probably better at mid and long range. He has the RFC and showed some ranged techniques like Red Drop while Kallavan has been all about close range attacks.

What's outrageous is that SIU said there are opponents which Kallavan can't beat but who would be defeated easily by Jinsung. That's pretty much impossible to imagine such a scenario because as you said they are pretty similar. Kallavan is simply just better overall.

 

[kkck]

I agree with pretty much everything but I'd say Jinsung is probably better at mid and long range. He has the RFC and showed some ranged techniques like Red Drop while Kallavan has been all about close range attacks.

What's outrageous is that SIU said there are opponents which Kallavan can't beat but who would be defeated easily by Jinsung. That's pretty much impossible to imagine such a scenario because as you said they are pretty similar. Kallavan is simply just better overall.

Reverse flow control as far as i can tell is not quite even a mid range technique. Longer than cqc but the only definitive mid to long range version of the technique was used by zahard (and bam hasn't replicated it yet). Jinsung definitely has long range techniques but it's hard to imagine them hitting harder than his reinforcement or floral butterfly.

Hmmm, maybe jinsung is faster than kallavan? He has reinforcement techniques that boost his speed. Maybe in a long range scenario where jinsung can close a distance while not getting obliterated by something powerful enough to take on the essence of bravery and kallavan hardness...