Fantasy Natsu vs Eileen

[Axiomus]

Selene and Irene are allies too. Enchantments works on people stronger than you.

Literally every time Wendy buffs someone from team Natsu, she is casting an enchantment on someone stronger than her. The page you showed doesn't prove Irene is stronger than Selene. Wendy is using an extraction enchantment to force Irene out of her body. Irene isn't doing this to Selene. What Irene did was separate the curse of the dragon's wounds, and enchanted upon *herself*. She didn't interact with Selene's MP or spirit at all. The might be an argument if Selene was actively trying to use her magic to break the enchantment, but she wasn't. Irene casted a non-combative enchantment on a Selene that didn't even attempt to use magic to resist. How does this possibly scale to anything?

Wendy's magic would have worked on Faris regardless, otherwise Irene wouldn't have attempted it. She was well aware Wendy wasn't on Faris' level, and she had no clue Aldoron was gonna strip away Faris' power.

Irene did take the fight with Wendy and Erza seriously. She went all out with her dragon form afterwards.

The fact that Vierne's soul is in a building doesn't actually matter. He still has the MP of a god dragon. Alchemy doesn't use magic power. That doesn't mean Viernes doesn't have MP in his spirit. It just means he doesn't use MP when he's using alchemy.

There's nothing stopping Selene's portals from sending Ignia to Edolas, if she could manage to push him through one. It just probably wouldn't have mattered. Selene can use magic in Edolas, so it's likely Ignia would be able to as well.

Natsu doesn't need to burn time to defeat Irene. DF is more than sufficient to incinerate her.

Natsu could have easily thrown Jacob backwards if he had been willing to break the guild. He's stronger than Makarov. He can catch and throw Makarov's fist. Neinhart being drunk on power doesn't change his durability. Zeref took DF Natsu's attack because he could rewind time and undo the damage. If he couldn't do that, he would have been defeated by the attack. Invel didn't freeze FDK. That's just something you've made up. You have this absurd notion that Natsu can only set the ground on fire when he's using FDK. Except he's been setting the ground on fire against fodders too. Frankly, if Natsu flexing any sort of serious heat, Lucy's clothes would melt. The fact that he melted Invel's ice in base mode, and Lucy's clothes are still intact tells us all we need to know. Besides, even if Invel could freeze FDK, that doesn't mean he could actually tank the punch.

Aldoron still had his main seed, which is the strongest seed of them all. The Wolfen seed alone has the power to eclipse the powers of Zeref, Gildarts, and an army of Makarov. The main seed is stronger than Wolfen. Even nerfed, Aldoron still blasted a hole in giant Gajeel and started shooting up the entire FT guild with thorns. He was still winning against the rest of the FT guild. Nerf or not, Aldoron still has a good how strong a god dragon is at full power. Aldoron had his mind blown (literally) by the power of Natsu's new fire. He was talking about Natsu's as if had the potential to destroy the world. This puts Natsu on a completely different level than Irene.

 

[WoWfan]

not wanting to destroy one another is not the same thing as being allies. Non-aggression pacts are a thing, Selene refused Irene’s methods at first which is the same as failing to resist her power. They were allies with no reason to resist. It does, she extracted the wound against her will as she refused said method, same thing, they were literally connected meaning that Selene would have every reason to deny her if she was strong enough to do so, non combative doesn’t change how an enchantment works, same can be said for Separation enchantment, how can one resist when one‘s magic is inferior? No evidence that it does, besides, that, it is shown that magic power is separate from a person who was white out, so it is not part of their own magic power, pretty sure it was Selene that did that. No, that was when she was absolutely done, not before that, and Erza was powered up at that point by Irene’s enchantment Thanks to Wendy. He does not, they said that Guild Owl was Viernes, that means he was defeated at Team Natsu’s level. That MP only existed as his physical body’s form. He is not a spirit tho, he is a concept, a will, no different from that of Irene’s and Wendy’s personality enchantment which don’t transfer magic power, they even compared it to Enchantment for concept. No, she can just form a “moon” around him and that is that. Selene can use portals to access Ethernanos for magic and Ignia can’t. Base Zeref pushed Natsu back, it is not going to be anything of an easy fight. same can be said of Jacob holding back too just to torture them so Mavis would give up FH. Jacob is stronger than Makarov too, not really a factor here. No, his boosted MP was spilling out of his body as stated, which means his durability does not scale. Which is to show how pointless Natsu’s effort was, base form overpowered Natsu in DF. Invel did freeze FDK as those are flames that ignited the earth, just like with Zeref’s fight. That is fact. We don’t see it before when the earth ignited on it’s own when he powers up. Just around his body, again Zeref who is a genious Wizard and has kept tabs on not only Natsu but his friends too would know something is different. Why didn’t Zeref’s when Natsu flexed? Because it is a gag. That he didn’t do so right away is meaningless as he was still frozen over For a bit. yes he can as MP equals stats. And that is still weaker than before without the other seeds and even with them he was still being damaged by nerfed Zeref And going to did. No, his power is only reflected in those who the enemy sees as strong, otherwise Happy would have busted the planet like in the extras with his fight with Natsu, base Zeref scales above the Phoenix who can nuke the world. And Gajeel with a Spriggan’s power can still deliver damage that imobilized Aldoron’s body, and even a nerfed Spriggan spell defeated a GS that made the makn GS weak enough that when he was serious was slow enough for Natsu to dodge, and he was frustrated. Even Gildarts who they knew for more than a year after Alvarez who is likely stronger was worthless against Aldoron and yet nerfed Zeref caused more damage and was dangerous, and don’t say that it is because he can’t control his powers, the same is said for Gildarts, those thorns had terrible accuracy which is thanks of his immobility. So? Base Zeref is planet level too thanks to scaling above the Phoenix, nothing new.

 

[Axiomus]

Lol, Irene and Selene were allies. Irene casted the enchantment on Selene with the express purpose to save her life and help her out. Selene didnt have a problem with Irene enchanting the wound on herself. She was just surprised when it happened and tried to warn Irene she was gonna die. When Irene explained that she wanted to die, Selene had zero issues.

There is plenty of evidence that enchantment works even when you have less MP than someone. Literally every time Wendy buffs Natsu or Erza, she is enchanting someone stronger than her. Let me ask you a question. How did Wendy cast a personality enchantment on Irene's body? At no point did Wendy's body or spirit have more MP than Irene's body.

What are you talking about lol? Neinhart never said his boosted MP was spilling out his body. He said his magic power has surpassed its limits. That doesnt make him weaker.

Makarov threw Jacob out of the guild. Natsu could do the same if he was willing to damage the guild. Not that it matters, because the reason Jacob got wrecked wasnt because Makarov threw him. That makes zero sense. It was because he didnt have the durability to tank FDK.

Invel didnt freeze FDK. Setting the ground on fire is not proof that Natsu is using FDK, and Zeref had no clue Natsu even had Igneel's power in his arm. I just showed you that Natsu has set the ground on fire in base mode. You have this ridiculous criteria where Natsu has to set the ground on fire without also setting himself on fire. That's silly. First off, when Natsu used FDK against Zeref he covered himself on fire, and the fire spread to the ground. Second, it shouldnt even matter the manner in which Natsu sets the ground on fire. Something is either hot enough to set the ground on fire, or it isn't. How the fire got there is irrelevant. You've somehow convinced yourself that an unnamed ring of fire is FDK, and it's ridiculous.

No, MP does not equal stats. The manga is full of examples of people with lower MP having better stats. Natsu beat Zeref with infinite MP. Selene was flexing more MP than Aldoron or Mercphobia had when Suzaku beat her. The CSK costs the same amount of MP to summon as 3 spirits, yet is vastly superior to them. Jellal lost to Midnight, and then literally gave his MP to Natsu to beat Zero. Knightwalker has zero MP in her body, and yet her spear grants her equal stats to Erza. The 7 Dragon Slayers combined dont have Acno levels of MP, but 7DF Natsu can hit hard enough to defeat Acno. Laxus tanked Hade's attack with zero MP. Curse power works the same way as magic power. Do you know who had the highest curse power in among the 9 Demon Gates? Keith at 3000. Do you know who had the worst stats among the 9 Demon Gates? Also Keith.

The Aldoron seed is stronger than Wolfen seed. Wolfen seed can copy Zeref, Gildarts and an army of Makarov. Aldoron seed is therefore stronger than Zeref, Gildarts, and an army of Makarov. DF Natsu is stronger than Aldoron seed.

DF Natsu did more damage to Aldoron than both Gajeel and Zeref combined. Zeref curse affected a small area on Aldoron's back. Gajeel stunned Aldoron for like 2 minutes. Neither of which dealt lethal damage to Aldoron, or stopped Aldoron from continuing to fight. Natsu blasted a hole the size of a city in Aldoron's back, and actually dealt lethal damage to Aldoron. Do I really need to explain why instantly blasting a massive hole through someone's body is superior to slowly killing someone at a pace slower than Natsu's jogging? And no, I'm not going to stop pointing out the only reason the curse was killing Aldoron was because Wolfen thinks Aldoron is precious. Natsu literally says in the chapter that "the more you value life, the quicker it drains away". The curse is gonna kill Aldoron even slower rate when you dont care about Aldoron at all. We see what happens when Zeref hits people with his magic when he doesnt care about them. Natsu can tank it for several minutes.

 

[WoWfan]

they were not allies if Selene refused the process, thus qualifying as resisting and not being able to stop her, it doesn’t matter what purpose it is If she didn’t go along with it At first. She may have been surprised at the beginning but she still expressed refusal, “hold on.” And “why not on another?” Those are expressions of refusal. Irene’s explanation came after Selene’s refusal. Natsu and Erza Were allies and had zero reason to refuse said power ups. Irene’s body did not have a will to refuse so Wendy could enchant it, That is the point, MP is tied intimately with the individual, if an individual leaves, it is just Magic Power. He said his MP has outstripped it’s limits, that means it spills over Out of him, you can see it writhing from his body, his limits are still there just gone beyond it, his abilities maybe boosted but his physical stats remain. Correction, he punched him out, with no visible damage, If Natsu was as strong as you claim then why didn’t he? He could just pick him up, carried him outside and threw him? Don’t say he isn’t smart because he is a genius on the battlefield. And yet he had the strength to make a tactical retreat after the battle. He did, it is as Zeref who knows about how said power is capable of setting the earth ablaze on it’s own without Natsu to generate it, not knowing about Igneel’s power is not the same as not knowing about Natsu’s other abilities Since he was the one who gave Natsu to Igneel in the first place and they were close friends. No, that is steam, not fire, all those flames are close to Natsu and directly from his firsts as attacks. The point is that those flames can be self sustaining without him constantly projecting them. And then he is not in flames by the time the ground is set ablaze which Zeref said. Something unique to Zeref is something that he did not already know about Natsu and he is a genius wizard. he can project it at first around him but then they are gone the next panel which shows the earth on fire. Fire which warps reality which is hax based on power increase. Selene’s gates can project power in other worlds, Aldoron and and Merc were weakened by that time. where did you get said information about the CSK? Amount does not reflect an individual’s magic power Anyway. Jellal lost his memories and was already weakened when using the self destruct spell. You do realize that individuals can flex their power when they want which is not the max effort right? Knightwalker was from a different world which the rules are different for individuals there, you can have strong bodies without magic if you want, Mystogan proved that as much. Acno lost his powers when he got on a ship and was trapped in FS. Yet he was knocked out, not durability. Curse power does not work the same way as magic, otherwise magic cuffs would work on Demons, there are curse magics in magic system if you are confusing that for something else. That is not how it works, nothing stated he had limits like that, prove it with words not interpreting visuals. DF Natsu fought a weakened Aldoron, while nerfed Zeref could damage and eventually kill a stronger Aldoron, he was interrupted before he could complete the task so shows he can output more than DF Natsu, those two minutes were all Natsu needed to land the finishing blow, you can fight even when you are not moving, nothing stated one can’t, even when unconscious even. Again, weakened Aldoron. Again, nerfed Zeref still threatened Aldoron, doesn’t matter what speed, if at a slow pace was a threat then Aldoron just could not handle it, Mavis also explains it better which is more energy you release when you value life As he values life, not one individual unless they are in love which is stronger than the other times, and releasing more energy can make it quicker via pressure.

 

[Axiomus]

Selene didnt refuse. She tried to warn Irene that she was gonna die if she went through with it, and then asked her why she didnt enchant the wound unto some random guy. Then Irene told her she wanted to die and that she can't, Selene was okay with it. Selene was worried about Irene's well being. Selene would simply kill Irene to lift the enchantment if they were actually fighting. The bottom line is that Selene didnt use any magic to fight against the enchantment. The amount of reaching you're doing to pretend Irene has more MP than Selene is truly insane. It shouldnt be this complicated. Selene is introduced as someone on Acnologia's level. Irene is not.

It shouldnt matter that Irene's soul was no longer in her body if merely having higher MP means you cant be enchanted. Mavis had Fairy Heart, and Irene used separation enchantment against her will. Fairy Heart is Mavis' magic power. It doesnt matter if Mavis never used Fairy Heart to transform, or even if she never used it's power. You're saying that enchantments cant be used on anyone with higher magic power. Irene is using a separation enchantment on infinite MP in Mavis' possession against her will. If you're gonna argue that Mavis never used her Fairy Heart to fight back, then the same is true for Selene and her actual powers. Selene enlarges the moon when she gets serious in her human form. If she wants to get really serious, she'll turn into a dragon. None of that happened here. She just talked.

Wendy used separation enchantment on Viernes, and enchanted her unto Athena's body against his will. The philospher's stone had nothing to do with the separation enchantment. It was just to give Viernes a physical form. The separation enchantment to detach Viernes from the guild could be done whether or not she had the stone.

Makarov broke the guild when he punched Jacob. Natsu didnt want to damage the guild. That's why he didnt punch Jacob out of the guild. In any case, Makarov's punch wasnt why Jacob coudn't defend himself. That makes zero sense. If Jacob couldnt defend himself against Makarov's punch, how is he gonna defend against FDK fist that can stomp Makarov? Jacob was burning up and screaming "It buuuuuurns" before Natsu even punched him. That's why he couldnt defend himself. Not that it even matters, since you wanna bring in video games into the discussion. FDK destruction fist smashed past Gildart's defenses in the official Fairy Tail RPG game. It wouldnt have mattered even if Jacob blocked.

Whether or not Natsu is constantly using magic is irrelevant. Natsu had fire on his body when he fought Zeref with FDK mode the whole time. He had fire covering his entire body, then a fireball in his fist. After Natsu attacked Zeref, the ground stopped burning. If the ground could burn on its own without Natsu constantly using power, it would have kept burning. The same can be said when Natsu tried to warm things up against Invel. You dont know if the ground would have kept burning when Natsu stopped using his power. All you're going off of to prove Natsu used FDk against Invel was the fact Natsu made a circle of fire on the ground. That's hilariously inadequate. Also, for all your talk about sneak attacks and being caught off guard, you seem to just gloss over the fact that Natsu wasnt even aware he was in a fight. Even after Natsu recognized he was under attack, which happened while he was inside the ice, he still didnt find the situation urgent enough to use an actual FDK attack to break free. He just melted it with regular flames. Finally, even if Invel can freeze FDK, it doesnt mean he can tank any of Natsu's punches. Gray was smashing Invel's armour with his bare fists. Natsu doesnt even need FDK to replicate Gray's level of physical strength. Heck, if Invel froze the fire around Natsu's fists, Natsu would be able to replicate what Gray did with his gauntlets.

DF Natsu hits harder than Zeref, even without flames hot enough to burn time. He only needs to burn time in order to prevent Zeref from rewinding it to heal himself. The fact that Zeref can land a smack on Natsu's head is irrelevant. If Zeref hits as hard as DF Natsu, that smack should have obliterated Natsu. It didnt. Zeref fights on a base Natsu level. Only time he managed to deal lethal damage to Natsu was when the latter was exhausted after just having used DF. As soon as Lucy restored Natsu back to fresh condition, base Natsu went back to trading evenly with Zeref. Base Natsu even gave Zeref a bloody lip.

Gajeel's fight had zero impact on the outcome of Aldoron's fight. Aldoron stated that his god seed inherits all the strength from the size of his dragon form, and was very clearly still moving and fighting against Natsu.

Natsu dealt more damage to Aldoron in a single punch than Zeref and Gajeel combined. The lethalness of Ankhseram's curse isnt nerfed when Zeref cares about life. It actually grows stronger. Mavis even pointed out that the curse didnt put Zeref into a coma when they kissed was because she didnt love him as much as he loved her. When Zeref cares about life he gains control over his magic, but it no longer insta-kills people. Natsu hasnt died despite being hit several times by Zeref's magic. Heck Larcade didnt instantly die after having a hole blown in him.

Aldoron and Mercphobia, even weakened, are still far stronger than Irene. Erza cannot cut down Mercphobia's dragon form even with Wendy's enchantment. Aldoron has more MP than Zeref even with just one seed. Selene has greater MP than Aldoron and Mercphobia, and was flexing it, when Suzaku still beat her. MP simply isnt a reliable indicator of actual stats.

If MP scaled to stats, Jellal would have had DF Natsu strength and durability, and pounded Midnight into the ground. It doesnt. The magic you use actually matters, and it many cases it matters more than how much MP you have. That's why DF Natsu is objectively stronger than Jellal despite literally using his MP to fight.

I sais curse power works in the exact same way as magic power, not that they are the same thing. Obviously magic cuffs arent gonna work on curses. I fail to see how that has anything to do what I'm saying. There is a clear distinction between curse power and stats, just like there is with magic.

Aquarius said the MP needed to summon 3 spirits means Lucy should have enough to summon the spirit king.

There's nothing about the way Neinhart is being drawn suggests he's being weakened. What are you even arguing here? Even if Neinhart had so much MP spilling out from his body, why would that be special? We've seen people releasing their MP to crack the ground and physically destroy their environment. Natsu oneshotted Neinhart even when he was enchanted to have more MP than a regular Spriggan. MP =/= Stats. It's really that simple.

Knightwalker is strong because the 10 commandments grants strength to its wielder, just like it does in Mashima's previous manga "Rave Master". Edolas doesnt have stronger humans lol. If Knightwalker had Erza level strength without her spear, she would have beaten Erza when she ran outta MP. Everyone in Edolas is simply a holder mage. Their powers come from their items, which they can use despite having no MP in their bodies.

Acno still had his resistance to magic after falling on the ship. He cracked Fairy Sphere with a body slam while shouting "magic still doesnt work on me". Fairy Sphere doesnt take away Acno's MP. It simply immobilizes him. And actually, there was no motion sickness after Fairy Sphere was cast. Fairy Sphere stops everything from moving. Acno could still move because he was resistant to magic, but the boat and water would have all stopped moving. So no motion sickness, and nothing from Fairy Sphere that would have taken Acno's MP away. 7DF Natsu simply hits hard enough to beat Acno despite Natsu having nowhere near Acnologia's level of MP.

 

[WoWfan]

hold on and why not another is not the same as warning, warning is something you give before starting something, all those points are moot to what Selene behaved prior, that is not worrying as one would say “are you okay?” Or simply stop the process to tend to her needs. If she was powerful she would have lifted the enchantment just to save Irene’s life. It doesn’t matter if she did or didn’t, the fact that she could use it at all against an unwilling person before they could 100% commit to it speaks that her MP is greater than Selene’s. That is not her soul tho as that is a pesona, the fact that Suzaku could not see it and he is a DS is evident, it is simply a matter of if it has power or not to pull off the enchantment. Mavis did not use FH tho so it is not tied directly to the will of the user as it is separate from her, even if it was, she had her will suppressed thanks to Invel. Viernes is a will, no evidence he had DG level magic since Owl Guild was defeated rather easily, so Wendy is stronger Than Viernes at that point since they were weakened or dead. Yet Natsu broke the Guild against Zeref, they are all hypocrites afterall, Jacob was in a position to not fight back when flown back for Natsu to beat him, and Jacob had enough time to get away, yes it can as one can’t always properly move when thrown backwards, that just simply limited his durabiltiy at the time for Natsu to land a hit, any case, Invel froze same flames so it tells what we need to know. That was only briefly as next panel they were off him and just let the earth burn, something a genius like Zeref took intrigue in. doesn’t mean they have to stay forever based on the will of the caster despite them never burning themselves out without external factors as Dragon Flames but they can be blown away from the force of his punch. But that took time and not instant for Invel. like you said it doesn’t matter since Invel could stop them. but the only time when that was relevant besides that moment was with Zeref who was a genius who explored the realms of magic and that is something unique. Not aware? They were literally in a war and he was already being attacked by ice magic so he actually put effort into it but failed as the ice overtook him. He doesn’t because Gray was talking friendship which makes them not all that worried. He just heat up hotter when his FDK flames failed the first time, those are Flames of Emotion. Not the first time and that was with FDK attack. He does not, Zeref could rewind time even when his body is gone. It does when Natsu cannot approach and was blown backwards and not charge forward. You don’t need to obliterate one’s head to do that, just have enough stopping power, which is the means to render a target stopped. Nerfed Zeref fights at a Awakened DG level, DF Natsu fights at a weakened DG level. He was not exhausted, he was catching his breath, just in despair of his best effort failed, we do not see his text box waver either, plus we see what losing one’s magic like that would do, render you unconscious like Natsu, even a few hours can restore one’s magic power. It did as it rendered the main body grounded, making the attacks inaccurate to the FT members. Strength, not synchronized movement, not the same. Natsu only won because Aldoron was weakened. nerfed Zeref was going to do more damage before interruption. Not saying it does, but that doesn’t make it stronger either, just releases more energy which is at that level, considering he becomes physically weaker he can’t manage said power. That is different as that is love which can work on immortals, and that happens when someone is brought back to life too. Not when he needs too which he can still release instant death. Igneel’s scarf took it, and Lucy rewrote his book to Bring him back, not of his own efforts. That means Larcade is stronger than Natsu then by proxy if he can survive a hole to the chest, with magic no less. Nothing proves that since Weakened Aldoron and Merc were in Dragon Forms at the time, Nerfed Zeref disproves that since he was damaging and eventually would kill Aldoron, the only thing aldoron had in advantage was size and that was about it. Selene let Suzaku win, his victory was nulled when a weaker weakened human form Dog Dude could knock him out cold. Midnight and the rest of the Oracion Seis became stronger since their imprisonment and even before Jellal was weakened and lost his memories. Anything is magic power in FT universe even without using magic Because it is tied to nature too, only thing that counters it if the magic is explicitly hax and has no statement where MP difference matters or if the opponent is not taking it seriously or caught off guard. No, Curse power does not work the same way at all, they are entierly different evolutionary pathways from the original source, it is like saying Oil and vinegar literally mix. Curse power is it’s own thing compared to Curse magic, it is fueled by negative emotions and null factor, and Magic is internal and external as it comes from spirit and nature, Curse power is only internal which is from negative thoughts, Simply having more magic is not something separate from stats as having more magic than what your body can handle will lead to hazardous results, you need a form that is physically capable of withstanding it, Curse power doesn't have that stated limit. plus those are Demons artificually created, not natural beings like humans too. That just makes Knightwalker stronger than the average edolas human which could overpower Natsu and Wendy, which by the way proves MP equals stats as with MP Natsu could throw a just metal dagon, without it he ran away from a big frog, and Edo Lucy could beat it with a whip, which shows she is stronger than normal and even overpowered Natsu too. Holder Magic users still have magic inside of them compared to Edolas. No, that resistance is gone, phantom lord proved that when Natsu got motion sick, Totomaru stated that in that state he can harm him which Natsu knew he was in clear trouble had his friends not saved him, cracked is not the same as breaking free, plus they did not have enough magic for the spell at the time and Acno was stronger than normal, it takes away his immunity as well, like any slayer.

 

[Axiomus]

It takes more effort to read what you are trying to say than to write up my response.... Anyways, Wendy is literally talking about enchanting Natsu against his will lmao.

Selene was worried about Irene's well being. She told her to "hold on" because she wanted to explain that Irene will die if she does this. She asked if she couldnt just pass the wound to some random guy in an attempt to think of a solution for Irene to survive. Trying to pretend Selene was antagonistic to Irene is just plain silly. Selene didnt even get serious in her human form, because the moon wasnt enlarged. Nor did she resort to her dragon form. She talked.

It doesnt matter if Mavis didnt use Fairy Heart to do anything. Fairy Heart is literally her magic power and is inside her body. Irene is literally using her magic to on Fairy Heart. In Mavis possession. Against her will. Causing her pain. Irene didnt use any of her magic power to resist Irene. Irene didnt even touch Selene's magic power.

Vierne's soul is tied to the actual structure of the building, not the members. All the power you see in the latest chapter belonged to Viernes. At no point did Wendy have more MP than Viernes. Enchantments can simply work on things that have more MP than you.

Larcade isnt stronger than Natsu lol. Natsu took the same blast from Zeref, and simply tanked several minutes of Larcade's black magic. If you want to pretend Natsu wasnt exhausted after DF, I dunno what to say. Doesnt change the fact that after Lucy restored him to fresh condition, base Natsu gave FH Zeref a bloody lip.

Selene has more MP than Aldoron and Mercphobia. Their MP levels in their bodies dont change between human and dragon forms. Only the strength of the magic they can use, and their stats. When Selene flexed her MP againdt Suzaku, Mercphobia sensed that Selene's MP was greater than what he and Aldoron had. Im not arguing that Selene's human form was stronger than Aldoron and Mercphobia's dragon form. Im saying she had more MP, and this is yet another example of why MP =/= stats.

Selene only let Suzaku win in the sense that she didnt resort to her dragon form. She flat out admits she tried her best in human form, but cant beat him in that state.

Zeref when he values life doesnt fight at Aldoron's level. He's below Ultear's level. Ankhseram's curse simply kills people that you find precious, and the Wolfen seed thinks Aldoron is precious. The real Zeref could care less about Aldoron. His attacks are tankable by Natsu.

Anyways, Aldoron's durability is a function of his dragon scales and size, not any type of magic he's using. Even accounting for the nerf, DF Natsu's attack did far more damage than the death wave.

Curse power is literally just magic that feeds off negative emotion instead of love. Curse power and magic power work in the same way. Neither are tied directly to stats. Quite frankly, I have no idea what you're trying to argue with MP having hazardous effects if you have too much.

Having MP didnt make Natsu stronger against Dorma Anim than the frog. Actually usong his dragon-slaying magic did. You dont lose all your MP when you go to Edolas. It's still in your body. You just cant use it until you eat an x-pill. So no, this isnt proof MP equal stats. Quite the opposite, actually.

Edolas Lucy and Knightwalker aren't stronger than normal humans. Knightwalker specifically has the 10 Commandments, which we know from Rave Master grants the user strength depending on its forms. Lucy had a magic whip, which she zapped the frog with.

Fairy Sphere stops all motion inside the sphere. The boat and water stopped moving once Fairy Sphere was cast. Acno was immune, and could keep moving. The fact that Acno could move at all meant that at the moment Fairy Sphere was cast, his resistance to magic was still in effect.

 

[WoWfan]

And yet it is the collective of his guild mates and that of Sabertooth and Jellal, not just one person, with all that power is enough to give to one person even if it was against their will. Not according to your logic who just “warns her” as in not even trying to stop her and wants Irene to die. Maybe that was her evil plan all along, let her take the fall, she knew about Irene for a while so she make her take it. Not she said hold on to suggest to do it to someone else, to not warn her. That right there is her refusing said attempt like that which is not going along with that plan. Not antagonistic, not not immediate friends when they just met and talked. She didn’t get serious in her human form the second time which would give Suzaku ample opportunities to cut her down for good. The moon wasn’t enlarged when she was in dragon form either which is just a random affect of her magic and not constantly tied to her magic power constant output even in Earthland. Talking is still an expression of refusal or resistance. No, it is a separate from her magic, if it was part of her, then her clothing would disappear the moment she lost it since they are illusions. That is why Irene can enchant it away since it doesn’t have a will since Mavis is not using it. No, she is struggling because of the of the ice collar which the moment it is gone she used magic to escape. It doesn’t matter since Selene’s magic is part of her as magic is part of life. Which makes the building weak as hell. Wrong, his will, not soul, because Viernes magic power did not exist until he gained a physical body, which means there was nothing special about his will other than being a concept. No, Enchantments only work if you have more MP than the other or if they are fine with it. You make him out to be. He got blown back and could not approach the rest of the time he was even stopped in base form. Larcade was massively injured already and survived a blast through the chest, that is not tanking, as he had the same time as Sting, guess that meant Natsu is Sting level. I don’t know what to say what makes you think Natsu was out of magic after DF, he was standing and not collapsed or out cold. Not immediately, same with first time, it is irrelevant as Zeref had not problem first time. That is because Merc had half his power and Aldoron lost his seeds. It does as they carried magic power and thus different forms would give different level of power. Selene stated that there is a difference in power when transforming. Which reflects in their ability to hold MP. Selene can open gates which explains why her magic can be felt in other worlds. Otherwise. She would be the strongest in the verse. It does as again, their bodies must be strong enough to hold said magic power or suffer from it. Yet she never received a single hit besides that of her cut on her cheek, and that was her nonchalant state. And yet Ignia humbled Suzaku in his human form, same with Dog dude and he was weakened. Because of his stat difference as he becomes weaker he can’t handle his magic. Anyone, it doesn’t discriminate, if just those they find precious then Natsu need not run. Really his size is what counts in this facto, scales mean nothing if they do not have stats to back it. And for Gajeel immobilizing the main body. No, they never stated that, it even states that curse generates in the absence of magic power. Two contradicting forces, they do not, MP has stated to be tied to stats while Curses do not, you need actual statements for that, being sick, hazardous to life in the presence of massive magic power, cancer, etc.. yes it did, DS is not a factor in being able to apply strength to life and throw a robot compared to a smaller organic frog. Which doesn’t change anything if they cannot use it you are no different from a standard human like that of regular soldiers, they have no magic and they steam rolled over Natsu and Wendy. Yes they are, if she could overpower Natsu then she is stronger by that logic. That doesn’t make Edo Lucy’s whip work like that as well since she hit with enough force to overpower the frog. That is not electricity as we do not see it have any properties of lightning. And FT did not have the magic to sustain it. The body was still shaking inside the sphere, Acno lost his immunity once he becomes motion sick, doesn’t mean he can’t power through despite being affected

 

[Axiomus]

When Wendy enchants other people's magic unto Natsu, she herself isn't as strong as everyone combined.

Evil plan? What are you talking about? There was no plan. Selene was gonna kill Irene. Then Irene told her that she wasn't harming Wendy. Then Irene enchanted Selene's wound unto herself. Selene was clearly showing concern for Irene's well being until Irene explained herself. She didn't try to fight Irene lmao.

We didn't see the moon whenever Selene fought in her dragon form because she was fighting indoors. The moon enlarges whenever Selene gets serious, especially in her human form. None of that happened with Irene.

It's still Mavis' magic power since it's inside her body. Even if she wasn't actively using it, it was still Mavis' MP. Selene wasn't doing anything with her MP when Irene enchanted her.

Soul/will. Call it what you want. Mashima uses these terms interchangeably. Viernes' magic power was in that building.

On what planet is Larcade more durable than Natsu just because he had a hole blasted through his chest? Natsu was blasted by Zeref in the chest too, but he tanked the blast and later burned the magic away.

You don't think Natsu is exhausted here? Okay then.

No, magic power doesn't change between human and dragon form. The actual strength of the magic they can use is what changes. The MP inside their body remains the same. Remember, the dragon form is their true form. The human form is just a transformation. It makes no sense that they would lose MP when switching between forms. Selene has more MP than Aldoron and Mercphobia, period. She's not as strong as them in human form, but she has more MP.

Mard said that curse power is just a new possibility for magic. Either way, merely having high MP doesn't mean you have high stats. Heck, you're arguing Irene has more MP than Selene when it's very clear that Selene's stats are way better. Irene's dragon form got oneshotted by Erza. Selene can brawl with Ignia.

What allowed Natsu to throw Dorma Anim isn't the fact that he had MP in his body. He's always had MP in his body. He just couldn't use it because of the x-pills. What allowed Natsu to throw Dorma Anim was him using dragon slaying magic to literally give his body dragon-like properties, including physical strength.

Edolas Lucy isn't physically stronger than Natsu. She has a magical whip. It doesn't even have to be electricity. It could just be magic power that hits really hard.

Fairy Sphere did not work on Acnologia until the continent worked together. His immunity to magic was in play even when he was on the boat. Motion sickness didn't stop it.

 

[WoWfan]

She is stronger than Haku who scales to Suzaku, and she could break the stone of Dog Dude’s labyrinth. you make it sound like she is not even trying to stop Irene from taking her own life to save hers. Until Selene didn’t knowing that Irene and Wendy are living peacefully, that doesn’t automatically make them friends, she clearly wanted her to stop which based on power level difference she is more than capable of based on your description of concern and what she said about going another route. She changes the world to night when it happens and we see the moon when she does it In Edolas, that doesn’t change how she can affect Irene and supposedly Suzaku who can “supposedly“ beat Selene in that state. It is not as in that is directly part of her own magic pull which allows her to use magic, same with Wendy and Irene when they switched bodies, they weren’t tied to magic power but still a factor. Not at all as souls still carry magic power while wills or personas typically do not. And yet Owl guild was damaging the building and the fake Duke was suppose to be the voice of Viernes shows concern, if he can damage it then Viernes is weak afterall, that was after FH, he did not tank it as he was revived by Lucy and used Reality warping flames with pure heat. Zeref was too but that means he can dish out more than Natsu. it does, especially when you are capable of storing more magic into you, strength it interchangeable from magic power as MPF proved, it does not as you need more magic to become stronger, or need spells that are pure hax, and yet when Natsu burned Merc’s magic away he reverted to a human, thus proving MP is tied to strength, she is as strong as them in human form as DG stats are equal that would lead to mutual destruction. New possibility as in an evolutionary branch, does that make Aviaries and Mammals exactly the same despite evolving from Amniotes? It does as you need to be physically strong enough to hold it. Yet Wendy beat Haku who scales to Suzaku, and Irene’s magic alone is considered threat to her by Selene, so by scaling Irene is stronger than Selene, and that is in persona. Erza had multiple power ups at the time and was confident Erza could not cut her until Wendy used enchant to give Erza DS magic, that was in Dragon form, not human. Yet he cannot use it which made him weak like the series stated, he was useless there, Natsu could throw around large masts in the beginning of the series without magic so tossing around minor soldiers or a bit frog would not be an issue, he already had dragon properties even without magic, it is a genetic factor, that is what was proven In Edolas. She was wrestling with Natsu multiple times and he was in pain, it does require force however to magic it affective which she us the source of it. Because Fairy Tail did not have the magic power to complete it. It does as Phantom Lord proved.