Quarterfinal Natsu vs Gildarts

Pheromone · Jun 3, 2017

EmberSpirit said:
DF Natsu punch can erase Gildarts from existence. Why is this a hot debate

Much like how Gildarts can Crash Natsu from existence, and unlike Natsu he doesn't need a powered-up form to do so.

Close, could go either way. As of now, my vote's been given to Gildarts but I'm willing to hear the pro-Natsu stance out.

Axiomus · Jun 3, 2017

MLG Bradman said:
"Melt" might have been August's most impressive attack bar Ars Magia, but you're forgetting to account Natsu's immense heat resistance + the fact that he managed to negate some of the damage. Also, Gildarts tanked this:

Whilst that is admittedly an unnamed attack, there's hardly been any named attacks as of late. Even Zeref was just throwing around nameless blasts until his fire attack, so there's no reason to doubt that this blast would be powerful in it's own right.

As you stated earlier, Cana tagged August because he was caught off-guard. As for August's speed/reactions, why would Racer's magic help him against Jellal + CS in a defensive way? Racer's magic doesn't slow speed, just reactions, so while I get it helping offensively (easier to crack their defenses), why would it help defensively?

And as for Gildarts' not being consistently faster, when did he try and blitz August again? And tbh, that doesn't even matter, because that one showing is better than any speed feat of Natsu's IIRC (though admittedly I'm not that knowledgeable on Natsu).

In their previous sparring sessions, Gildarts was never bloodlusted like he is here, and no opponent ever challenged him to the extent that August did. Why wouldn't he abuse his speed and agility, especially against a heavy hitter like Natsu?

A slayer's resistance to heat isn't absolute though (for example, Gray and Invel), and the sheer scale of August's attack makes it an impressive endurance feat regardless. August's unnamed nukes are impressive, just not as impressive as melt. It may be as impressive as Zeref's attacks, but not overwhelmingly so. None of this is really enough to put Gildarts on a whole different level when it comes to durability.

Racer's magic slows down time for its targets. Whether or not its actual speed or just the perception of speed, it doesn't matter. The net result is that he's faster than Racer because of it. August also could copy meteor, and he's probably better than Jellal with it. Meteor alone made Jellal very difficult to tag against Oracion Seis. You combine that with slowing and the ability to know what your opponent is doing? It's no wonder nobody managed to tag August when he was copying all their powers. None of this applies to August when he was facing Gildarts. Gildarts magic has nothing to do with speed as far as I can tell. He's just somewhat athletic, so the fact that he can tag August a few times is not that surprising.

Gildarts was definitely bloodlusted against Bluenote on Tenrou, and even then speed was not the main factor in their fight. The historia of God Serena also managed to face off against Gildarts for one exchange. Natsu has speed feats like charging across a field of 10,000 monsters within a panel, so he is by no means slow. He might not be a speedster like Jellal or Racer, and to be honest neither is Gildarts, but his speed is decent enough.

Pheromone said:
Much like how Gildarts can Crash Natsu from existence, and unlike Natsu he doesn't need a powered-up form to do so.

Close, could go either way. As of now, my vote's been given to Gildarts but I'm willing to hear the pro-Natsu stance out.

Empyrean and True Heaven never managed to erase their targets like Natsu's DF demolition fist did to Zeref's body. Again, the strongest opponent Gildarts has actually managed to beat this arc is the historia of God Serena. That's not to say Gildarts cannot beat a Spriggan, but Natsu has literally beaten someone with infinite magical power that can control time and space itself.

Aonori · Jun 3, 2017

If Natsu doesnt go Dragonforce or END mode or whatever, Gildarts will easily one shot, the disadvantage here is that Natsu needs to power-up to get shit done whereas, gildarts, can just go all out quicker and go for a quick one shot, if it was lightning flare mode natsu, he would be able to dodge and prevent being one shotted, but if he´s starting as base form it´s begging to be one shotted by Gildarts, who has more experience into tuning into his powers and can unleash more quicker.

Pheromone · Jun 3, 2017

Axiomus said:
Empyrean and True Heaven never managed to erase their targets like Natsu's DF demolition fist did to Zeref's body.

I said Crash.

All it takes is one good opening.

Oh, and I don't believe Natsu can "burn" this away like he did with Zeref's magic, from a guy who was clearly toying with him and mentally conflicted at the same time.

The only real "burning magic" that Natsu has would be via the guild's PoF against FH Zeref, and I have no reason to believe that he'd be able to do so against a fellow Fairy Tail mage. If we assume that he could, than I'd have to grant the same ability to Gildarts as well.

Overall, it's sketchy, poorly explained, and due its obvious external nature, not something that could be considered without mindlessly giving Natsu the win against everything with no difficulty.

Axiomus · Jun 3, 2017

Pheromone said:
I said Crash.

All it takes is one good opening.

Oh, and I don't believe Natsu can "burn" this away like he did with Zeref's magic, from a guy who was clearly toying with him and mentally conflicted at the same time.

The only real "burning magic" that Natsu has would be via the guild's PoF against FH Zeref, and I have no reason to believe that he'd be able to do so against a fellow Fairy Tail mage. If we assume that he could, than I'd have to grant the same ability to Gildarts as well.

Overall, it's sketchy, poorly explained, and due its obvious external nature, not something that could be considered without mindlessly giving Natsu the win against everything with no difficulty.

Empyrean and True Heaven are crush spells, and they should be stronger than the standard spells. It doesn't matter anyways, because Gildarts doesn't actually have any feats of using regular crush attacks to erase his opponents either. Natsu actually has feats of disintegrating someone's body. Gildarts doesn't. Gildarts has already used crush on Natsu before. Crush doesn't kill you when it hits a living target. It just splits you into blocks that turn you into mini versions of yourself.

You can't just say just because Natsu with POF can do something, someone else with POF can do the same. Zeref used POF against Natsu when he tapped into his rage and sorrow. It didn't overpower Natsu. Also, Zeref wasn't trying to toy with Natsu towards the end. He was trying to kill Natsu. He may have been mentally conflicted at certain times, but he made up his mind after he obtained Fairy Heart. The curse of contradictions doesn't really affect his power-level unless he feels love or compassion, and the fact that he stabbed Natsu through the chest kind of proved that he was not empathetic at all. The bottom line is that every character in Fairy Tail uses power of feelings. This doesn't mean every character uses it equally well, or to the same extreme. You still have to judge them based on their feats, of which Natsu's are better.

XXEliteXXAceXX · Jun 4, 2017

Close match. After giving it some thought, I voted for Natsu. With Dragon Force, I do believe he is the strongest mage on Ishgar's side.

Though I'm not sure what to make of his fight against Zeref... If DF Natsu actually obliterated Zeref, why would he come back? Isn't it his wish to die? Besides, how can one reverse time when they are already dead? But then again, you have to ask yourself, where was Zeref after Natsu used "Demolition Fist"? In all likelihood, Natsu probably killed Zeref. But since this scene is a bit convoluted in my eyes, I'm just going to go with the usual power scaling. And DF Natsu should be above Base, FDKM, and E.N.D which are among low-tier Spriggans, medium-tier Spriggans, and high-tier Spriggans, respectively.

Gaggen · Jun 4, 2017

Alright lets ASSUME natsu can burn crash. but what about the empryean punch? gildarts' speed>natsu. Nobody up to date has the capability to tank the attack except for the ACT-nologia. Sooner or later natsu would meet igneel either way. gildarts physical strength> natsu/ dragon force natsu...... It has been about 1 and the half year since their battle in tenrou. Ridiculous, just ridiculous if anyone can catch up to that level. Non-sense. Cant blame them, maybe natsu's supporters are learning to be imaginative as mashima. Bad influence.....

Axiomus · Jun 4, 2017

Gaggen said:
Alright lets ASSUME natsu can burn crash. but what about the empryean punch? gildarts' speed>natsu. Nobody up to date has the capability to tank the attack except for the ACT-nologia. Sooner or later natsu would meet igneel either way. gildarts physical strength> natsu/ dragon force natsu...... It has been about 1 and the half year since their battle in tenrou. Ridiculous, just ridiculous if anyone can catch up to that level. Non-sense. Cant blame them, maybe natsu's supporters are learning to be imaginative as mashima. Bad influence.....

That's easy to say when the targets of Empyrean were Bluenote and the historia of God Serena. Bluenote can be oneshotted by a basic roar. Neinhart was enchanted to be stronger than his historia, and he was taken down in 2 hits. Natsu has feats of breaking down Zeref's physical body with dragon force's FDK demolition fist. None of Gildarts' attacks have ever done that type of damage to any of his opponents.

HIro's power ranking is canon.

Takuan · Jun 4, 2017

Axiomus said:
HIro's power ranking is canon.

Wait, what do you mean by that?

Jean Grey · Jun 4, 2017

Takuan said:
Wait, what do you mean by that?

@Gaggen said that Natsu fans are as imaginative as Hiro, AKA Hiro's imagination is that Natsu is stronger than Gildarts by mere one year training. in fact, its not an imagination by Hiro, its the truth.

and @Axiomus says that no matter what others say, its canon.

basically this.

Axiomus · Jun 4, 2017

Takuan said:
Wait, what do you mean by that?

Simply that Hiro Mashima's opinion on power ranking is canon. The closer your power-ranking is to Hiro's opinion, the more accurate you can be. We have no way of knowing Hiro's opinion 100%, but the manga is the best indicator of his intentions.

Jean Grey said:
@Gaggen said that Natsu fans are as imaginative as Hiro, AKA Hiro's imagination is that Natsu is stronger than Gildarts by mere one year training. in fact, its not an imagination by Hiro, its the truth.

and @Axiomus says that no matter what others say, its canon.

basically this.

Pretty much this. Fairy Tail is basically Hiro's imagination.

kkck · Jun 4, 2017

Come on, we saw natsu overpower zeref when the guy had fairy heart. In context, natsu's power is quite literally infinity +1. Gildarts doesn't have it in him to use an attack of that magnitude. And it is not only one time that natsu has gone up against zeref. Even before that natsu was holding his ground against zeref. That is a gargantuan feat... Natsu grew astoundingly stronger through the arc. There is no reason for us to think gildarts could ever pull off the sheer amount of raw power to overcome fairy heart zeref. Natsu at that point is simply the strongest character in the manga with the plausible exception of acknologia.

Takuan · Jun 4, 2017

@Jean Grey @Axiomus
Alright thanks =) that's clearer for me now.
Though i'll have to disagree. Hiro didn't make it canon that Natsu is superior to Gildarts. What's canon is that Natsu beat FH Zeref, which is pretty insane, but that has nothing to do with being stronger than Gildarts. This is what this thread is about.

Axiomus · Jun 4, 2017

Takuan said:
@Jean Grey @Axiomus
Alright thanks =) that's clearer for me now.
Though i'll have to disagree. Hiro didn't make it canon that Natsu is superior to Gildarts. What's canon is that Natsu beat FH Zeref, which is pretty insane, but that has nothing to do with being stronger than Gildarts. This is what this thread is about.

Well, Zeref is an immortal with an infinite reserve of magical power, and can reverse the flow of time if his body is ever damaged. To do the equivalent of what Natsu did to Zeref, Gildarts would have had to crushed August's copy magic and then damage August to the point where he couldn't move. Or at the very least, match the damage shown by DF Demolition Fist on Zeref with his True Heaven finisher on August.

Takuan · Jun 4, 2017

Axiomus said:
Well, Zeref is an immortal with an infinite reserve of magical power, and can reverse the flow of time if his body is ever damaged. To do the equivalent of what Natsu did to Zeref, Gildarts would have had to crushed August's copy magic and then damage August to the point where he couldn't move. Or at the very least, match the damage shown by DF Demolition Fist on Zeref with his True Heaven finisher on August.

I can agree. Natsu is canonically extremely strong, and i have no doubt that had Gildarts been the final villain with FH, he would have suffered the same fate than Zeref. Natsu would have burned his crash or whatever.

But that's only if Gildarts was the final villain. Aka, if the fight was full of incredible PoF and Pis, which are restricted here.
So no, canonically Natsu has better feats than anyone else, but him being proven to be the strongest is not canon. Otherwise this debate wouldn't take place.

Holt · Jun 4, 2017

Zeref having infinite magic power does not equate to his attacks having infinite magic behind them. Or else, Natsu would have had to use flame of savage emotions for literally any move Zeref makes. Zeref being immortal does not mean his durability and endurance are infinite. It just means that given sufficient time, he will always recover. This is why Acnologia would have never been able to kill Zeref. Zeref being able to reverse time doesn't mean that factors into play everytime and neither does it add even a ounce to his strength.

The one thing certain about Zeref is that he will not die regardless (excluding Mavis). Natsu disabled Zeref, which is a very impressive feat, but the issue here is placing Zeref on god like pedestal and thereby elevating Natsu beyond that. Natsu did not need to overcome infinite magic. He just had to overcome Zeref durability and endurance, the effect of which would prevent Zeref from being unable to fight for a period. Fighting for a long period of time with a powerful opponent will certainly reduce task ones endurance. At the time of their final clash, it's clear both are at their limits in endurance. Natsu is barely able to stand, while Zeref is unable to (move). That's why there is a stark difference between the end and the beginning. At the beginning, Natsu litreally obliterates Zeref (which as usual, imo, zeref allowed or rather, did not bother defending/countering). But we see Zeref easily reverse this. This is also a hint towards Zerefs durability not being infinite. But at the end, Zeref isn't even missing a finger and yet is unable to replicate what he did at the beginning. He was at his limit there.

The fact that Natsu did this does not directly indicate no one else can. Not diminishing the feat in any way btw. Also, Natsu is not Zeref. Natsu does not have infinite magic, or infinite durability and endurance. He is not a CQC monster that is unparalleled. What he does have is huge power and potency behind his finisher moves. Enough to overcome almost anyone. But again, I would argue the opinion that Zeref's durability or Endurance is above everyone else's, excluding his immortality which, in fairness, Natsu did not overcome. Natsu burning time/zeref's magic is incredible, but I would argue Crash can potentially do the same though its impossible to prove or disprove so that is pointless I suppose. Natsu in DF has greater attack potency definitely, but he doesn't even start off in DF. And Gildarts has what it takes to not give him any opening

Axiomus · Jun 5, 2017

Having infinite magical power doesn't mean every one of your attacks had infinite power behind them. This I can agree with, because having infinite power in an attack would blow up the universe. That being said, even without infinite magical power, Zeref was already able to put holes in a high level Spriggan like Larcade. With infinite power backing him up, his attacks would have been stronger. I have seen people on this thread disregard Natsu's speed feats with Igneel's power on the basis that Natsu's had an MP increase. It would definitely be odd if having an infinite amount of magical power didn't actually manage to increase any of Zeref's stats, especially attack power (which is generally the one thing most people agree would increase if MP is boosted).

What allowed Natsu to beat Zeref wasn't only that he overcame Zeref's durability and endurance. That might have beaten Zeref before he obtaiend Fairy Heart. After Zeref obtained FH, he gained the ability to reverse time. Dragon Force allowed Natsu to break down Zeref's body into particles. However, it couldn't stop Zeref from using Fairy Heart's power to reverse time and restore himself. It was Natsu's ability to burn Zeref's magic and time itself that prevented Zeref from simply reversing all the damage that was done to his body. Zeref was using Fairy Heart to manipulate time, and Natsu burned that magic away. Moreover, Natsu did more damage with the flames of savage emotion than he did with Igneel's power. This alone would be impressive if it was just against base Zeref, but the fact he did so against a version of Zeref that had Fairy Heart is even more impressive.

Again, I have to reiterate that the strongest opponent Gildarts has actually defeated is the historia of God Serena. Gildarts did not actually beat August. Empyrean did not disintegrate the body of God Serena's historia like Natsu's DF demolition fist to Zeref's. Gildarts was not able to crush August's copy magic like Natsu was able to burn away at Zeref's time magic. Gildarts was not able to damage August to the point of immobility with his true heaven finisher attack. I can give Gildarts the benefit of the doubt of being able to take down the average Spriggan 12 members, possibly even with oneshots. However if Gildarts' true heaven attack didn't do significant damage to August, then it's very probably not going to immobilize or disintegrate Zeref.

Dragon Force is required for Natsu to overpower and knock out Gildarts. However, I don't think Natsu needs to be in Dragon Force to match Gildarts attacks. Natsu's base mode punches can take out Neinhart. Neinhart was enchanted by Irene with powers that surpassed Neinhart's own magic. The historia that God Serena is Neinhart's magic. At the very least, Natsu should be able to match Gildarts in terms of attack power with an Fire Dragon King spell. He's been using those attacks pretty liberally this arc. Throwing a demolition fist takes around the same amount of panels as it takes for Gildarts to say the chant for Empyrean.