Nen

[Carbonseed]

am I right to think the quality modification of any object has to do with re-inforcement AND transformation ?

lets say I want to make something give me strenght. then I have to use transformation and put my nen into the object with the intention of strenghtning user ? if I want to make this effect more powerful than just my 100% transformation then I'd have to use re-inforcement.

would that sound right ?

its a bit old in my memory but... whats the specific purpose of manipulation ?
I was thinking the fact that Kurapica chain "moves" according to his will IS manipulation... or maybe even needle facial reconstruction from Illumi involves manipulation ? (any other example ?)

the effect of restraining nen on members of the spider would be mostly manipulation (forcing a behavior on something else (forcing zetsu)) ?

transformation is transforming the nature of things ? change aura into bungeegum ? change aura affected thing into something else ?

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Transformation is giving special proprieties to Aura. It usually doesn't influence objects much.

Reinforcement reinfoce/improve whatever you are using it on.

Manipulation manipulate living and inert matters, including people's emotions and so on.

Materialization create objects, and if you are strong, give them special abilities (vacuum cleaner, Kaito's scythe, and so on).

 

[kkck]

am I right to think the quality modification of any object has to do with re-inforcement AND transformation ?

lets say I want to make something give me strenght. then I have to use transformation and put my nen into the object with the intention of strenghtning user ? if I want to make this effect more powerful than just my 100% transformation then I'd have to use re-inforcement.

would that sound right ?

its a bit old in my memory but... whats the specific purpose of manipulation ?
I was thinking the fact that Kurapica chain "moves" according to his will IS manipulation... or maybe even needle facial reconstruction from Illumi involves manipulation ? (any other example ?)

the effect of restraining nen on members of the spider would be mostly manipulation (forcing a behavior on something else (forcing zetsu)) ?

transformation is transforming the nature of things ? change aura into bungeegum ? change aura affected thing into something else ?

There might be elements of those two but it is not necessarily the case. Giving objects special powers has more to do with the conditions and pledges you make. If it was really closely related to other actual nen classes then they would never really be powerful abilities considering the nen types involved would could never reach 100% efficacy. Take the ryodan girl who uses the vacum and kurapica. Kurapica has a number of abilities with his chain, a number of them which are related directly to nen types and a number which are just random abilities. For instance, he can use his not very efficient reinforcement to heal -he does boost it with his specialization nen though. On the other hand, his other chain uses dowsing which has nothing to do with a nen type, it is just a random ability. Shizuki can materialize her vacuum at any point but the vacuum's ability has nothing to do with any specific nen type.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

There might be elements of those two but it is not necessarily the case. Giving objects special powers has more to do with the conditions and pledges you make. If it was really closely related to other actual nen classes then they would never really be powerful abilities considering the nen types involved would could never reach 100% efficacy. Take the ryodan girl who uses the vacum and kurapica. Kurapica has a number of abilities with his chain, a number of them which are related directly to nen types and a number which are just random abilities. For instance, he can use his not very efficient reinforcement to heal -he does boost it with his specialization nen though. On the other hand, his other chain uses dowsing which has nothing to do with a nen type, it is just a random ability. Shizuki can materialize her vacuum at any point but the vacuum's ability has nothing to do with any specific nen type.

That's quite false.

Restriction doesn't seem to give special power, it just improves on what you can do to incredible degrees.

Shizuku's vaccuum is also a staple of Materialization, though high-level all use the void-space in different ways.

One doesn't need restriction to give special power to materialized objects- for example, the dousing chain doesn't have any restriction.

 

[kkck]

http://www.onemanga.com/Hunter_X_Hunter/83/10/

Materialization users can only create thing within the confines of what already exists, they can't make things better than the best of it. In that sense, when they create objects they are never beyond what is conventional. On the other hand, materialization users can give things characteristics beyond average or impossible for normal chains but only if they give up something. To some extent, of all kurapicas techniques MUST have a number of limitations. For instance, I doubt the dousing technique would work to trace any conceivable object, known and inknown persons within an infinite radius. Perhaps the ability does not come directly from the rules but rather the person but in turn without a number of rules and limitations for it using an ability would be borderline impossible or simply far too useless. There might also be elements of other nen types but given the conditions to use nen, not having a pledge would mean being limited more than severely. Even if the materialization user indeed mastered all other nen categories to the utmost extreme under normal circumstances the technique would never display more than overwhelmingly mediocre power. Take gensuru, he had materialization, manipulation and emission in his technique but in turn he had quite complicated rules for it.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

That's your own personal fanon.

All the teacher said was that it wasn't possible to make absolutes with Nen, things that are stronger than anything possible otherwise.

It doesn't mean one *needs* restriction to give power to the materialized abilities.

It's just that pretty much every nen users we saw had restrictions, even if some (like Gon's jajanken) aren't known as such by the user.

BTW, Genjusuru didn't have much manipulation in his technique at all (it was only emission and materialization, with the hardest being emission most likely).

 

[kkck]

If you don't give restrictions to materialized things then they would never have any special properties though. Why would it considering what the manga has explained? There is not a single example of a materialized or manipulated object in the manga which has gone beyond what the regular version does without having some form of restriction or rule on it.

Also, genzuru did in fact have emision, manipulation and materialization in his ability.
http://www.onemanga.com/Hunter_X_Hunter/143/08/

 

[Shinichiro]

If you don't give restrictions to materialized things then they would never have any special properties though. Why would it considering what the manga has explained? There is not a single example of a materialized or manipulated object in the manga which has gone beyond what the regular version does without having some form of restriction or rule on it.

Also, genzuru did in fact have emision, manipulation and materialization in his ability.
http://www.onemanga.com/Hunter_X_Hunter/143/08/

It's never stated that you can't have special properties without conditions/restrictions.

This is the way I've always seen it. Giving a materialized object a real special property is very difficult--the more special the property and the further from materialization it is, the more difficult that property might be. Restrictions are quick and easy ways to boost the power of your ability, essentially meaning that you don't have to work as hard or expend as much nen to get the same result. The more restrictive the condition, the more of a power boost it causes. That's why the binding ability on Kurapica's chain is so powerful--he can only use it on a few people in the entire world, and he dies if he guesses wrong. If he'd tried to put that binding ability on his chain WITHOUT that restriction, I'd guesstimate that it would only be able to hold a weak nen user (since Kurapica's a beginner himself) or something like that instead of Ubo, who's arguably the strongest character we've ever seen.

Also, can't really agree with your assessment of Gensuru. There are several similar-but-different ways he could go about that power, but none of them definitely require manipulation, from what I can tell...

Option #1) Gensuru is a transformation user by nature. He specializes in converting his nen to bombs or explosive energy. This is evidenced by his primary attack, little flower and the manner of its execution. Gensuru's lie-prone personality also fits the transformation type to a tee. In order to affix bombs to someone, he simply converts his nen to a bomb and touches someone, fixing it on. He maintains it with emission skills and gives the ability conditions. It's possible that the whole password/tick with heartbeat aspect is manipulation, but we don't know enough about manipulation to be sure of that. For all we know, that's something he sets up while transforming his aura. In this case, his bomber ability requires Transformation and Emission, while his Little Flower requires Transformation and Reinforcement (protection vs. his own explosion)

Option #2) Gensuru is a materialization user who materializes bombs. In order to boost the power of his bombs, he has set the condition that he can only materialize them on objects he's touching. So for his bomber ability he might have trained with something like: "I want to materialize a bomb that ticks down with my opponent's heartbeat and detonates using these key words", while with little flower he just materializes an immediate-effect bomb. I don't like this option quite as much as it doesn't have as good personality matching and the two abilities seem less...linked together.

 

[kkck]

WHat I said about genzuru is not debatable in the least, it was stated in the manga and specifically in the link I provided. I don't think we have any reason at all to doubt what the nen eraser said.

I would find it very strange materialized objects could have special abilities without having rules and restrictions. I mean, the rule is that materialized objects have to be within human capacities, they cannot be better than what god made them. In that sense, you could materialize a perfect cell phone or anything but it would never do more than that. The way you put it, it sounds as if rules were the result of a lack of skill rather than a necessity but then again, the manga has never said such a thing.

As for genzuru's power, I think the logic is as follows: Materialization was used to make the bomb. Emission is so that the bomb can remain away from genzuru. Manipulation is so that the timer and rules for the explosion can be set. That is just my opinion and the reality could be a tad different though(it is still a manga fact that genzuru's bomb is made of materialization, emission and manipulation though).

 

[Shinichiro]

WHat I said about genzuru is not debatable in the least, it was stated in the manga and specifically in the link I provided. I don't think we have any reason at all to doubt what the nen eraser said.

He says that Gensuru can balance the two--not that any particular ability is comprised of any particular technique. Bombing could be manip, materialization, and emission, while little flower might be something completely different. Or visa versa.

I would find it very strange materialized objects could have special abilities without having rules and restrictions. I mean, the rule is that materialized objects have to be within human capacities, they cannot be better than what god made them. In that sense, you could materialize a perfect cell phone or anything but it would never do more than that. The way you put it, it sounds as if rules were the result of a lack of skill rather than a necessity but then again, the manga has never said such a thing.

Never said for, never said against, leaving it all to us. And lack of skill? You might put it that way. I'd say more striving for something that's virtually impossible and making it easier and more powerful via conditions.

 

[kkck]

What manga are you reading? The guy says "To be able to balance the combined use of THREE nen types". Where exactly does it say he is using two?

The way nen has been described, as in always having a price or cost -specially when the ability in question is highly specialized-, I don't see how special abilities could be plausibly given to either real objects or materialized ones without setting pledge and conditions invariably. Every single nen ability we have seen that has to do with materialization or manipulation has had a set of conditions which must be respected, even among high level nen users -I don't see why high level nen users would have this rules to their abilities if they were avoidable in any plausible or conceivable way-. Shizuku cannot suck living things, shalnark must put an anthena thing on the enemy to control him, that hairy ryodan guy MUST touch whatever he wants to replicate it and he can only do it for 24 hours.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Because, in nen, using an ability that suits your temperament and prove your determination is Key.

Shizuku was said to *not want* to suck living things, the same way Gon was shown to *want to say 'first is rock' in a special pose and so on.

Owl guy had quite the special Materialization ability, but doesn't have any restriction.

Shizuku's restriction makes no sense if she couldn't make her vacuum otherwise: "oh right, i am going to limit my vacuum to non-living things, even if *i can't make the vacuum without that restriction to limit the vacuum*" doesn't make any sense.

Someone should be able to replicate (at least in a very-very-very-small scale way) what they want to do without their restriction because if not the restriction is only to use the power coming from the restriction in certain way... which makes no sense.

It's not a matter of "why do they choose restriction", it's a matter of "it suits their temperament, and that is *extremely* important when it comes to nen".

See Netero praying each time he uses his Statue, Mummy guy making music, Gon doing his pose, and so on.

 

[kkck]

Shizuku not sucking living things is not the same in any plausible way to gon saying "first is rock". Gon does not have to say that to make rock work in the least, his ability being that simply does not require something like that. When was shiziku said to not want to suck living things? The manga has made it pretty clear it is not a matter of wanting, she can't do it. As for the owl guy, do you mean the ryodan guy? Restrictions are made based on the users temperament, that is true, but that does not mean they are simply things they can or cannot respect on a whim. The manga made it clear not respecting a rule means you either cannot use a technique or you lose your nen permanently-or in kurapica's case you die-.

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Can someone tell me what exactly those missiles from the wolf guy do? I have been looking for that but I can't seem to place the chapter...