Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[I Am Atomic]

@Hannibal Psyche You said that BM used hardening to defend against Luffy's G4, which makes his attack strong. True. But does that make him strong enough to go up against BM?

Luffy v Bellamy. In that fight Luffy used hardening to block Bellamy's punch, not easily as BM did. Does that mean Bellamy is strong as Luffy? Bellamy got one-shot by Luffy in that fight.

What you need to realise is that DD and Cracker couldn't pull off what BM did, they couldn't block G4 even with hardening. BM blocked it casually! Luffy had to go all out to beat them. Yes they might have had DF which countered Luffy's fighting style but that is how fight works.

Fujitora's statement could have meant that Luffy has the strength to fight an Admiral but not defeat them. If Fujitora statement is what you say it is, then why did Fujitora said he will bring back the head of Luffy and Law by himself to Akainu? If Luffy is strong as him + Zoro who he clashed with has similar strength as Luffy + Law who is also close to Admiral level, would Fujitora make a promise with Akainu? In Dressrosa he could have captured all of the pirates by himself if he wished but he spared them and attacked the pirates who were coming after Luffy and Law. He only did that because Luffy saved Dressrosa.

Finally, If Luffy is strong as BM as you said then when he awakens his DF and improves his G4 to no time limit then wouldn't he become too strong? Stronger than Yonko's? Then will the fights be even interesting because he is already too strong?

My prediction:
1. SH will escape WCI without defeating BM
2. Will beat Kaido in Wano and might unlock awakening
3. Defeat BM in Elbaf

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

yes i can c what fuji says but simply put how can luffy already be yonko level. that would mean strength wise he doesnt need too much progression & so much of OP is still left. This is plain common sense.
u r reading too much out of fuji's words.

Yes so you're in denial of what Fuji says in other words, that's what you're saying. Reading too much? It literally says that. It's like reading fire is hot, and then saying repeating that saying fire is hot is reading too much into an absolute statement. You're not using common sense here, but denial.

crocodile says " this may be my best chance". so he is referring to himself only .Dont extrapolate it to kaido.
i m not saying kaido could beat wb.
all i m saying is that kaido wanted to team up with admirals, thats just speculation on ur part.

So r u predicting that luffy will take down BM this arc (coz fuji has already said that luffy is yonko lvl) ? If u r then i can bet it just wont happen.
So r u ready to bet on it . Let the manga progress & we will c who is right on whether luffy is yonko lvl or not .

False. You're wrong again bud.

He's not talking about just himself. He says there are plenty of pirates on the sea besides himself who could never defeat Whitebeard. Everyone was trying to defeat him.

Hell, can you even see the other prisoners besides himself stating they want to kill Whitebeard too? It's not just Crocodile, but everyone. In fact, bottom right corner, Crocodile says "I'm not the only one". Should at least try to get your facts right.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 16, 2017 ---

@Hannibal Psyche You said that BM used hardening to defend against Luffy's G4, which makes his attack strong. True. But does that make him strong enough to go up against BM?

Luffy v Bellamy. In that fight Luffy used hardening to block Bellamy's punch, not easily as BM did. Does that mean Bellamy is strong as Luffy? Bellamy got one-shot by Luffy in that fight.

What you need to realise is that DD and Cracker couldn't pull off what BM did, they couldn't block G4 even with hardening. BM blocked it casually! Luffy had to go all out to beat them. Yes they might have had DF which countered Luffy's fighting style but that is how fight works.

Fujitora's statement could have meant that Luffy has the strength to fight an Admiral but not defeat them. If Fujitora statement is what you say it is, then why did Fujitora said he will bring back the head of Luffy and Law by himself to Akainu? If Luffy is strong as him + Zoro who he clashed with has similar strength as Luffy + Law who is also close to Admiral level, would Fujitora make a promise with Akainu? In Dressrosa he could have captured all of the pirates by himself if he wished but he spared them and attacked the pirates who were coming after Luffy and Law. He only did that because Luffy saved Dressrosa.

Finally, If Luffy is strong as BM as you said then when he awakens his DF and improves his G4 to no time limit then wouldn't he become too strong? Stronger than Yonko's? Then will the fights be even interesting because he is already too strong?

My prediction:
1. SH will escape WCI without defeating BM
2. Will beat Kaido in Wano and might unlock awakening
3. Defeat BM in Elbaf

He used Hardening because those punches hurt.

Anyone who uses Hardening does so because the attack is strong enough to hurt them. Bellamy is not as strong as Luffy, nonetheless, it means that if Luffy continued taking those shots, he'd be defeated.

Big Mom used Hardening because Gear 4th is powerful enough to hurt.

If a Seaking can hurt Shanks, why can't Luffy hurt Big Mom if his attack is strong enough to do so? And the fact is that it is.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 16, 2017 ---

So r u predicting that luffy will take down BM this arc (coz fuji has already said that luffy is yonko lvl) ? If u r then i can bet it just wont happen.
So r u ready to bet on it . Let the manga progress & we will c who is right on whether luffy is yonko lvl or not .

If you want to know what will happen, then think of it like this.

It'd be like saying during the Dressrosa arc that Luffy won't defeat Joker. If he wasn't defeated, the Birdcage would have killed everyone and they wouldn't have been able to meet up with their other half. WCI is no different, without her defeat, there's no progress.

Without a conclusion here, the story cannot progress. You don't make predictions by contradicting the only logical conclusion, you make predictions by basing it on the most logical conclusions.

Predictions are also made on trends and evidence and understanding of plot.

Can you name an arc where the SHs have let innocent civilians die? Don't think so.

One thing you also need to understand is at this point, her kids are unlikely to challenge her.

1. Only person who isn't afraid to challenge her is Luffy.
2. In order for people to be saved, she needs to be knocked out.
3. In order for WCI to be saved, she needs to be knocked out.
4. This is not only in the best interest of the SHs, but BM's crew.
5. Once she's defeated, you think Big Mom will take kindly to being told the SHs destroyed her empire and escaped? She'll take it out on her kids. It seems you've forgotten or don't understand how Big Mom blames people for her short-comings.

Also, even if she's told the SHs are responsible, as long as she has no recollection or has a different memory of what took place thanks to Pudding, what she believes is truth to her is her truth regardless of what she's told by anyone.

If you believe you went on holiday and have recollection of it and memories, someone telling you otherwise might not make sense. Truth is subjective.

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche ...but, how do you expect Luffy to beat her? He barely handled 1 of her commanders and later was defeated by her common army. He hasnt shown anything that could beat a yonko, literally nothing. She did use hardening to block his attack but it didnt budge her even an inch, didnt scratch her at all, in fact she was grinning the whole time. Does that look like shes worried about the strenght of his punch?
If all you have are Fujitora's words, while we saw that hes barely fighting a commander, then good luck with that.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

He barely handled 1 of her commanders and later was defeated by her common army. He hasnt shown anything that could beat a yonko

This will just start the cracker debate again lol
Anyways, you said it yourself, luffy fought someone for a very long time and then took some mild beating off the third strongest on his crew, he then had to face and army.
It was too much for him. Anyways my point is that there is power in numbers, even whitebears made note of this in marineford. Also People will argue doffy lost because of the multitude that sided with luffy. So you can't really complain that luffy lost against the army of scrubs(not really).
But tbh from the one clash against mama, mama looks stronger, but I wouldn't draw any conclusion because luffy is deffo tired so it's kinda ignorant to not factor in what you said about luffy taking damage from three different fights.
So like everyone says when talking about DD vs luffy, take away all damages, then DD might have beat luffy.
Law of equal judgment should make you think like that too here. If luffy straight up confronted mama without any damage, I'm certain mama won't beat me as easily as it was shown. Plus this defeat was off screen and mama coulda had help.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

@Hannibal Psyche ...but, how do you expect Luffy to beat her? He barely handled 1 of her commanders and later was defeated by her common army. He hasnt shown anything that could beat a yonko, literally nothing. She did use hardening to block his attack but it didnt budge her even an inch, didnt scratch her at all, in fact she was grinning the whole time. Does that look like shes worried about the strenght of his punch?
If all you have are Fujitora's words, while we saw that hes barely fighting a commander, then good luck with that.

She blocked it, means its a powerful attack.

Lucci and Luffy clashed too and neither budged, doesn't mean Gear 2nd couldn't have gone on to defeat him. Again, you're clearly grasping at straws if you're using trivial bits of irrelevant points to even attempt to make any substantial points.

Also, whether he struggled against Cracker is irrelevant. It's like saying that because Luffy struggled against Satori, he shouldn't be able to take on Enel. Your logic is therefore, faulty.

It's like saying that because the SHs couldn't defeat Perona, they shouldn't have been able to defeat Moriah; you logic isn't backed up because it's not one that works.

Cracker got defeated in 1 attack, had Luffy been able to get to his real body earlier, he'd have been easily defeated. So, your point is moot. If all it takes is 1 attack from Gear 4th to take out Cracker, he's not that powerful. The only reason he was difficult to beat was because he has a far more advantageous ability, that's all.

Fujitora saying what he did is a fact while you, have no facts.

 

[mis-match]

All u guys saying big mom had to use anarment haki to block luffys punch means something, it doesn't mean shit....luffy gear second gomu Gatling was blocked by doflamingo armament haki does that mean d punch was strong enough of harm him.

U guys should understand that its a normal instinct for a human to block or dodge...if u check nnoitara vs kenpachi he could not be cut at first but he was still dodging . big mom cannot b defeated by luffy n if we r using ur logic that big mom can b defeated by luffy bcuz he can touch her that means he can beat kaido, shanks n bb in a 1 on 1 match n that is ridiculous

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 16, 2017 ---

Hannibal psych plz if luffy can beat big mom y hasn't he done so or y did he take so much tym on cracker n y did he win a nigh close match against joker

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

U guys should understand that its a normal instinct for a human to block or dodge.

So, why didn't she do the same against Judge's spear if it's just "normal instinct"?

All u guys saying big mom had to use anarment haki to block luffys punch means something, it doesn't mean shit.

It does, you use Hardened Armament when an attack is dangerous. It's seen through out the Manga.

Law used it, because if he hadn't, his flesh would have been cut through.

Vergo used it because he'd have been cut.

Hardened Armament is the ultimate defence, therefore, it's used th guarantee protection from a powerful or dangerous attack.

So, it's hypocritical and a double standard to say that Big Mom protecting herself with Hardened Armament doesn't mean the attack was dangerous when it is the case with everyone.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it any less true. Just because I hate the colour blue doesn't mean I can deny that the sky is blue during the day.

Hannibal psych plz if luffy can beat big mom y hasn't he done so or y did he take so much tym on cracker n y did he win a nigh close match against joker

That's like asking that if Kaido is as strong as Big Mom, why hasn't he defeated her yet? Or Shanks, or Blackbeard? It's called circumstance. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, if you're not challenging an opponent under the right circumstances, it's impossible.

I could ask you, why didn't Shanks just kill Blackbeard at Marineford? Is it because he can't? It's circumstance. Things are not that straight forward.

Also, Luffy defeated Cracker with 1 Gear 4th attack; Joker was defeated with just 5; clearly, there's a huge gap in power if all you can take is 5 attacks before you're knocked out.

Under the right circumstances, Luffy can, and will very likely defeat Big Mom.

 

[Korndavis]

Also, even if she's told the SHs are responsible, as long as she has no recollection or has a different memory of what took place thanks to Pudding, what she believes is truth to her is her truth regardless of what she's told by anyone.

If you believe you went on holiday and have recollection of it and memories, someone telling you otherwise might not make sense. Truth is subjective.

Well, yes, truth is subjective and relative too, but, the human mind is an interesting thing, we know that our minds play tricks on us, we question our truth sometimes, even more when there is conflicting facts upon a situation, even more when there is the knowledge of having a memory manipulator in the team... Having suspicion of treason is enough to bring danger upon all crew, and she is psychotic!

The only way I see your situation happenning is with full rebelion! We are talking about allying with the enemy, dont you think Moma would have hunted down every living being in her territory?
This would be a defeat for Moma in itself thou, but the SH's wouldnt allow it either and Luffy doesnt have the stamina to beat her up right now, this is too extreme, this would be like Ivankov's Stamina applied to Luffy so he could fight...

I'm not expecting gOda to push this far, I would prefer for the SH's to come together and fight again, but I'm not the one writing it...


About this Cracker vs Luffy thing, anyone can fight/win against anyone under the right circunstances, Luffy wasnt prepared for the fight against Cracker but once he had a strategy things went his way, it wasnt Luffy who ran all fight, it was Cracker who hid behind his soldiers so he couldnt take damage... Now that he had the chance to test his punch against BM he knows how to defeat her, he has the power to, doesnt have the stamina I think.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Well, yes, truth is subjective and relative too, but, the human mind is an interesting thing, we know that our minds play tricks on us, we question our truth sometimes, even more when there is conflicting facts upon a situation, even more when there is the knowledge of having a memory manipulator in the team... Having suspicion of treason is enough to bring danger upon all crew, and she is psychotic!

The only way I see your situation happenning is with full rebelion! We are talking about allying with the enemy, dont you think Moma would have hunted down every living being in her territory?
This would be a defeat for Moma in itself thou, but the SH's wouldnt allow it either and Luffy doesnt have the stamina to beat her up right now, this is too extreme, this would be like Ivankov's Stamina applied to Luffy so he could fight...

I'm not expecting gOda to push this far, I would prefer for the SH's to come together and fight again, but I'm not the one writing it...


About this Cracker vs Luffy thing, anyone can fight/win against anyone under the right circunstances, Luffy wasnt prepared for the fight against Cracker but once he had a strategy things went his way, it wasnt Luffy who ran all fight, it was Cracker who hid behind his soldiers so he couldnt take damage... Now that he had the chance to test his punch against BM he knows how to defeat her, he has the power to, doesnt have the stamina I think.

Big Mom's character makes her a double edged sword especially with the fact that she's a psychopath. Especially in the state she's in during her hunger pangs, she never has recollection of things that take place during those periods.

I believe as you said the only way this will solve itself is if the SHs and BM Pirates unite. We already have the potential for the ideal circumstance to fascilitate a BM defeat.

As you also said, Luffy doesn't have stamina. If Luffy were to even challenge Big Mom, he'd be dead without a doubt as he's completely fatigued. That's why I believe should Luffy be fed meat or one of Sanji's 99 recipes which have special effects, it should reinvigorate him physically which would make it possible to fight. If Sanji isn't responsible for the food, Streusen is well capable of producing meat for Luffy.

If we also remember, Sanji fought to learn the 99 recipes as they have special qualities. Sanji's aim was to learn to improve his cooking to make it possible for Luffy to become Pirate King. His food coming into play here would be rather apt. It would be also poetic if his food strengthens the Germa and he finally comes to accept Sanji as his mother did. It would bring some resolution for Sanji in that sense.

A defeat would require all these factors coming into play and being that the arc isn't over yet, it's objectively possible in my opinion at least.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 16, 2017 ---

There are many cards that BIg Mom can put into play here. It's also weird that if she did want to fight Luffy, why not threaten his loved ones? That'd surely force him to fight her, and she'd have an advantage as she's superior as it is, and Luffy's exhausted. She does not seem that intelligent if she couldn't think of ways to stop Luffy by using the kind of person he is, especially when she knows he dived into danger for his lovedo nes.

She didn't need to lure him because he said he was coming for her anyway. There was no need to lure him. Also, the Germa have been dealing with the BM Pirates regarding their alliance for 66 days. It's only been 2 weeks, so it means over a month before Luffy arrived at Fishman Island, she already had plans to lure the SHs to her territory since Sanji was going to be forced to come anyway for the marriage.

Yes she does have the advantage, but it doesn't mean Luffy cannot be rejuvenated. If there's an alliance between SHs and BM Pirates, Streusen could provide Luffy with meat or Sanji could cook one of the 99 recipes.

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche First of all, try not be Luffy fan boy and look at things objectively instead subjectively. Second of all, you make up your own logic and "facts" and then you make up even my logic.
She blocked his almighty punch and was smiling while she did it. Is that looking dangerous for her in your logic?
Yes Cracker was defeated in one hit after 11 hours of fighting and after his stamina was drained and he was exhausted. Thats a fact. If he didnt jump into Luffy's stomach and made himself a bullet for attack of same calibre as King Kong Gun he probably would not be defeated since Luffy was at end of his stamina as well.

@Pro Ban Corps Just because that clash was off screen you think a yonko needs help to block the punch from Luffy?

Also saying Luffy cant match her just because hes exhausted, even tho he ate and slept before the wedding... You expecting him to match her in 1vs1 when hes refreshed?
Only thing we didnt see is King Kong Gun vs BM. That one might make her stop smiling when blocking it but thats as far as it goes, imo.

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche The more we discuss the more you look like Luffy fanboy. Yet again, you are making up my logic with that thing how long it took to touch Cracekr/BM, its ridiculous, your logic is going wild.
Another fact for you, that is not the only time cracker challenged Luffy without his clones, i can remember at least 2 times more. Cracker is not intimidated by Luffy's power, hes simply countering him with his DF. Is there a rule that swordsman is not allowed to fight behind others, especially when its his own ability and his clones are swordsmen as well? Another fact, proof that he wasnt intimidated, he was as well grinning the entire time when he attacked Luffy, which is more a proof that hes confident that he is above Luffy.

Our opinions are different to the core, we will simply have to wait and see what happens since we aint gonna agree on anything here.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

@Hannibal Psyche The more we discuss the more you look like Luffy fanboy. Yet again, you are making up my logic with that thing how long it took to touch Cracekr/BM, its ridiculous, your logic is going wild.
Another fact for you, that is not the only time cracker challenged Luffy without his clones, i can remember at least 2 times more. Cracker is not intimidated by Luffy's power, hes simply countering him with his DF. Is there a rule that swordsman is not allowed to fight behind others, especially when its his own ability and his clones are swordsmen as well? Another fact, proof that he wasnt intimidated, he was as well grinning the entire time when he attacked Luffy, which is more a proof that hes confident that he is above Luffy.

Our opinions are different to the core, we will simply have to wait and see what happens since we aint gonna agree on anything here.

Grinning isn't proof of anything. Burgess is grinning despite the fact Sabo is about to crack his skull. By your infantile logic here, it must mean Burgess is winning. Confidence isn't proof of strength. It's just bravado.

Your argumentation is really & painfully poor. Ideo is smiling despite losing to Dellinger and getting absolutely pummelled. So, what if he's smiling or grinning and confident? It's irrelevant. Crocodile confidently tried to attack Whitebeard as if he stood a chance, yet got stopped by Luffy who was one the weakest in Marineford, confidence is just confidence, it not substantial or proof of power. Confidence and power do not correlate. Anyone can be confident.

The fact that Cracker can only fight with his clones is proof he's not that strong. If you're as strong as your opponent, then you don't need to hide. Would be like Kaido or any Emperor hiding from Luffy just to attack him. Clearly gives off a very positive and intimidating vibe from Kaido as opposed to cowardly.

And again, by your fatuous logic, it's fair to state that Cracker is stronger than Big Mom since it took 11 hours to get to his body while it took 1 second to get to Big Mom. If all it takes is 1 blow to defeat an opponent, they're not that strong.

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche Lol, you just shot yourself in the leg. Burgess is grinning because he has a knife behind his back and is sure that he will succeed to stab him when hes so close. Look, there is a big knife behind his back, thats why the grin is for. Maybe you missed that.

Cracker is not stronger than BM according to my logic, its according to your logic what you think my logic is. You keep on assuming what my logic is, ill just let you know that you aint hitting the target.
Here are the two times he attacked Luffy without his clones:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q1CsUs2_c...M3OOrgRBk-UvdWx1ysiUoQCHM/s16000/0838-006.png
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/921432awa.png
You said go ahead and try. There i tried.

Doflamingo was beaten by 1 hit as well, because all the previous hits were not able to finish him off. Thats the case how almost every fight ends.
Thing is, you are assuming that if Cracker wasnt using his clones he would instantly be defeated because hes weak. Thats wrong, its what you assume. Problem is the things you assume you call them facts. Its simply Cracker's character paired with DF. He said it himself that he doesnt like to fight himself since he cant stand blood and DF allows him to fight that way, even tho that DF ability drains a lot of stamina as we saw in the end where he is exhausted.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

@Pro Ban Corps Just because that clash was off screen you think a yonko needs help to block the punch from Luffy?

Also saying Luffy cant match her just because hes exhausted, even tho he ate and slept before the wedding... You expecting him to match her in 1vs1 when hes refreshed?
Only thing we didnt see is King Kong Gun vs BM. That one might make her stop smiling when blocking it but thats as far as it goes, imo.

Dude you're drawing the wrong conjecture from what i said. From when we saw luffy after his clash, it was one of mama's kids that was restraining him, and also reiju by smoothie, and mins of butter on sanji/luffy. This highly suggestes they jumped in the fight, and im not saying they definitely did.
So in your world, and the world of one piece you've been reading, Damages taken vanish after eating and sleeping?? Use your brain a little bit man -_- (leave this to be moderated if it's regarded to be rude lol). When zoro took luffy's pain, he was still feeling the effect on sharbondy. So saying he slept, and he is fine is just a bit ignorant, and im being nice. Yeah sure meat revitalises him, but the gag is not that bad. 1 v 1 luffy and Big mom will be a good fight, Mama might come out on top, but im not saying that since luffy still has a form that we havent fully seen (Tankman), except if this is only cos he was full, then there's still things i dont know, tbh same goes for mama, but luffy has a chance. Plus if luffy is to win, he'll deffo get some help.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 16, 2017 ---

@Hannibal Psyche Yo relax man, I was writing my response thinkig i was mean, then i see you going hard. We are all here to discuss our opinions, and trust me i understand your frustration, when people make points that you find random but i've been hearing about fairy tail, and i dont want our forum to turn to that lol.
Just saying, although i own up to letting my emotions get the better of me too lol. Arguing is in my blood, but let's all try and be nice about it

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche You contradict yourself again. You said in the end it was the only time he challenged Luffy without his clones. Thats is wrong and that is a fact. Clones have always been around.
Also you draw wrong conclusion when it comes to Ideo and twist what i said to benefit your argument. Ideo is beaten, in blood, about to bite the dust and he is going down with a smile. Do you see Cracker or Big Mom beaten and in blood while smiling?

@Pro Ban Corps After clash with BM we see him with Sanji running away, restrained moment comes later at the end of that chapter. Also we are not talking about Zoro, we talk about Luffy. When did he not recover after eating and sleeping?

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

@Pro Ban Corps After clash with BM we see him with Sanji running away, restrained moment comes later at the end of that chapter. Also we are not talking about Zoro, we talk about Luffy. When did he not recover after eating and sleeping?

Yeah I was merely using zoro as an example, but anyway luffy after marienford was still bandaged up days after he woke up, you think he would have been able to fight someone like akainu days after he woke up from his surgery?? No way, because he's still injured. My point is even though luffy rested, do you think he's still not feeling the cut cracker made?? It'd be absurd to think luffy when clashing with mama was in full strength is my point.
And the bit where they were running can be interpreted anyhow tbh, I see it as Sanji trying to retreat with luffy because that's their aim anyway, you're seeing it as big mom already defeated luffy.

 

[Windfall Island]

So, why didn't she do the same against Judge's spear if it's just "normal instinct"?

It does, you use Hardened Armament when an attack is dangerous. It's seen through out the Manga.

Law used it, because if he hadn't, his flesh would have been cut through.

Vergo used it because he'd have been cut.

Hardened Armament is the ultimate defence, therefore, it's used th guarantee protection from a powerful or dangerous attack.

So, it's hypocritical and a double standard to say that Big Mom protecting herself with Hardened Armament doesn't mean the attack was dangerous when it is the case with everyone.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it any less true. Just because I hate the colour blue doesn't mean I can deny that the sky is blue during the day.



That's like asking that if Kaido is as strong as Big Mom, why hasn't he defeated her yet? Or Shanks, or Blackbeard? It's called circumstance. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, if you're not challenging an opponent under the right circumstances, it's impossible.

I could ask you, why didn't Shanks just kill Blackbeard at Marineford? Is it because he can't? It's circumstance. Things are not that straight forward.

Also, Luffy defeated Cracker with 1 Gear 4th attack; Joker was defeated with just 5; clearly, there's a huge gap in power if all you can take is 5 attacks before you're knocked out.

Under the right circumstances, Luffy can, and will very likely defeat Big Mom.

1)Just look at the panel where luffy clashes with BM. u posted that urself.
In that u'll c that while luffy is putting in effort BM IS LAUGHING. (EVEN WHEN THE CLASH IS HAPPENING).

2)Luffy is using his best card. (G4) at the very start

while She just starts with a casual haki punch.
>>YOU THINK SHE DOESNT HAVE ANYTHING STRONGER THAN HER CASUAL HAKI PUNCH ?

How do u knw how many cards BM has up her sleeves ?

3) Look at how chapter 723 ends.
sanji when hits DD at the last page (yes DD wasnt using haki probably)
But DD even complimented saji "looks like a strong one has shown up". BM didnt.
DD even had a look of uncomfortableness when he took sanji's first kick. BM didnt . She was laughing.
So going by your logic , sanji should have defeated DD but just in the next chapter we knw what happened.

What i am saying is that just coz u can appearingly seem equal for a while doesnt mean u r. The difference becomes clearer with time.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2017 ---

Dude you're drawing the wrong conjecture from what i said. From when we saw luffy after his clash, it was one of mama's kids that was restraining him, and also reiju by smoothie, and mins of butter on sanji/luffy. This highly suggestes they jumped in the fight, and im not saying they definitely did.

and we saw b4 that chapter how much BM despises anyone of her "lowly " child coming to her protect her .
That suggests that she doesnt want others to interfere in her fight.
I m not saying they definitely didnt. But this higly suggests that they didnt jump into the (BM vs luffy) fight.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2017 ---

Given all the circumstances, we have to face the reality that escaping from Totland within one day, without being caught by the BM pirates is impossible. They can't just sail through BM's seas for one day and nothing will happen. Also we know Luffy doesn't run away when uninvolved people get caught up in the results of his actions. And Big Mom rampaging through the city probably killing any citizen that stands in her way is not something that Luffy can just ignore. He was the one responsible for BM to enter the state, she is in now.
Oda has set up quite a few gears to spin the wheel of plot in the Strawhats' favour, a few things I just didn't notice until yesterday, when I read the whole arc again.
1. We were shown that there is a way for Luffy to overcome the shortcoming of G4, if he manages to be provided with an infinite supply of food... like shown against Cracker. Something that is only possible in this arc, so Oda making use of that is nearly a given. Coincidence that there is Streusen who can infinitely manufacture meat? I don't think so. If the Strawhats and BM pirates do group up, this will be one hell of a combo, an the perfect way for Luffy to draw out the full potential of his G4.
2. In addition to 1. many believe that Sanji will be the one to rejuvinate Luffy with one of his recipes. As I don't doubt that he could make such a feat happen, I think his role will be a much more important one, emphasizing the year of Sanji, that I think most of us are still longing for. As the Luffy, Streusen, Katakuri and co combo holds off BM, Sanji will be the one to cook a new weddig cake.
First picture, second bubble:

We know that the Wedding Cake did take 3 days to be completed, but that is because Streusen and his crew were preparing it. What if Sanji were in charge of the kitchen (with all its chefs) preparing that cake? Don't you guys think that he could pull that off faster? Here we have Pudding stating that Sanji knows a lot about "MAKING" sweets, he even could teach Pudding - an excellent chocolatier - a few things. Wait.... what? A first class cook, and a first class chocolatier, that have quite the complicated relationship, around which the whole arc has been circulating. And we are still waiting for a conclusion between those two. So I start to believe that both of them will be making that wedding cake together while the interim alliance wholds off BM. This will also be the perfect catalysator for Pudding and Sanji to come to terms. But also for Sanji to fix the whole situation with his cooking skills, which his family has shown to completely dispise. What a sweet taste of irony to be saved by the one thing that the Vinsmokes hate so much.

As the BM pirates (other than maybe BM herself) have shown signs of honour, sense of responsibility and even goodness, they will allow the strawhats to leave the island. Even when they are not able to physically beat BM (which I think can still happen, if Streusen really provides Luffy with an infinity supply of meat. Who knows what effect it will have on G4 if it gets used continously for hours.), this will go down as BM having lost against the SHs.

Most of what u said might be possible.
But the last para is where i cant agree coz germa were benefitting BM just like luffy would be (in this case id he helps taking down BM) but BM crew were going to backstab germa. They can do the same to SH.
And FI problem will exist anyways so y bother helping the BM crew. Let them get internally destroyed as much as possible.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

1)Just look at the panel where luffy clashes with BM. u posted that urself.
In that u'll c that while luffy is putting in effort BM IS LAUGHING. (EVEN WHEN THE CLASH IS HAPPENING).

Smiling or laughing means nothing.

Can see Cracker smiling and laughing here, but look what happens in the end? Defeated in 1 attack, so, moot point .

2)Luffy is using his best card. (G4) at the very start

Luffy's tired, yet she has to block with Hardening. You clearly don't remember that Jinbei stated that Luffy was already tired before the wedding.

3) Look at how chapter 723 ends.
sanji when hits DD at the last page (yes DD wasnt using haki probably)
But DD even complimented saji "looks like a strong one has shown up". BM didnt.
DD even had a look of uncomfortableness when he took sanji's first kick. BM didnt . She was laughing.
So going by your logic , sanji should have defeated DD but just in the next chapter we knw what happened.

Again, irrelevant. Sanji's kick wasn't strong enough to warrant defending with Hardening. All of Luffy's attacks were because they were powerful.

You're grasping at straws. Fact is if you have to block an attack with Hardening, it means it's a dangerous attack. You can be in denial all you want nonetheless.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2017 ---

Given that Big Mom took Luffy's Gear 4 punch without an issue, even if she was forced to use haki, it's still impressive and shows or implies just how outmatched Luffy is right now.

When you're forced to use Haki, it clearly means the attack is powerful.

She's using Haki against an exhausted Luffy in Gear 4th.

If anything, it's far more impressive that Luffy can force her to do so with his most basic Gear 4th attack.

If he weren't tired, she'd be having 1 hell of a fight with him. It's not like Luffy even used his most powerful move.

Your logic is like saying that because Joker blocked a Gear 2nd attack with Haki, it can't hurt him.

You only block attacks with Hardened Armament if they can hurt you, fact.

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche You say it is the only time he challenged him without his clones yet in the same screenshot that you posted we see his clones and hes is catapulted into them. LOL. In the earlier screenshot i provided when i said that there were two more times he did it without his clones Luffy didnt think hes dead and Luffy was able to move, which was proven since he dodged Crackers attack.
Ideo and Burgess smiling means exactly what i already said about each of them. Its simply you fail to understand it, maybe because it proves your point wrong and you were the one talking about denial... Also u make up my own logic as well. Maybe i should not say my opinion anymore since you will say it for me anyway, since you know what my logic is, or you just think you know.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

@Hannibal Psyche You say it is the only time he challenged him without his clones yet in the same screenshot that you posted we see his clones and hes is catapulted into them. LOL. In the earlier screenshot i provided when i said that there were two more times he did it without his clones Luffy didnt think hes dead and Luffy was able to move, which was proven since he dodged Crackers attack.
Ideo and Burgess smiling means exactly what i already said about each of them. Its simply you fail to understand it, maybe because it proves your point wrong and you were the one talking about denial... Also u make up my own logic as well. Maybe i should not say my opinion anymore since you will say it for me anyway, since you know what my logic is, or you just think you know.

You haven't really made any pertinent points or anything relevant. I'm just saying your logic is somewhat broken as its not consistent or sensible.

Big Mom also had to defend with Haki, that's proof Luffy is strong enough to challenge her should he get the energy boost.

And the fact is at this point in time in the arc, the BM Pirates would need the help of the SHs and likely the Germa to stop Big Mom.