[Round 2 - Team 1 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Tezuka vs Fuji

[ashore]

regarding Zero shiki serve, i doubt tezuka would use it , because it may have a similar damages that Tezuka Phantom does.
also fuji may be able to return it because he saw in the niou/atobe vs ochi/mouri match that it can be returned.

---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------

Regarding the outcome of this match? it's all subjective. let me say why.

Playing in real life tennis.. a player can not always hit an ace or return a serve, yet in the manga it happens almost all the time, if the serve isn't a technique or if the player isnt affected by the opponent's technique.

also rallys do not always get hit back and forth. IRL tennis even the top players can't sometimes return the ball do to the ball's speed,power, and direction of the ball being hit in relation to the returning hitter. also a players stamina , strength, speed, and mental ability, how tired they are play a factor


Fuji
Fuji as we seen in his most recent defeat and matches, if cornered he will make new counters to win the game or try to win. He will also find ways to counter/ overcome special moves/techniques used by his opponents with his new counters or with new innovative ways.because he a genius.

Despite his evolution, he still lost to shiraishi, because shiraishi is a better tennis player in regarding to all around technique. his bible allow his to use his movements and hits shots efficiently. People may argue fuji would have won against that, but that shows that all around technique can trump special moves. Shiraishi's win vs fuji reflects more of IRL tennis.



Tezuka
Tezuka, in terms of all rounder skills he's really good, arguably better than fuji and shiraishi. in fact that is mostly all he has and his doors to muga. to prove this, he has not many special moves. when faced with an opponent's special move he can't defeat he either has to lose or use phantom to makes an opponent's shot hit out of the court, since he cant "figure out a way to" return some special moves.


So in conclusion how do you want to decide this match? do you want to compare both player's all rounder skills or use of special techniques.

if u judge by all rounder skills like basic speed, strength, stamina, endurance, intelligence/mental and ability to play tennis , then the winner is TEZUKA.

if you judge this match by who will win by using special technique, the winner is FUJI, because tezuka has shown that he can't evolve and make new special techniques on the spot during the match like fuji. And fuji will evolve during a match to counter the opponents' special techniques and make new ones to defeat the opponent.


so how does one decide this match? that's why i conclude its purely subjective. fuji should win based on his ability to counter and create new techniques. but tezuka should win because his all rounder skills can beat fuji, just like shiraishi's all rounder tennis skills beat fuji.

what do you value more?genius and techniques or all rounder tennis skills, which is more reflective of IRL tennis.

i wrote this really fast without thinking much so i know there are flaws in my argument. please discuss and nitpick.
and do you think its subjective? should the winner be determined with the combination of all rounder skills and special moves, because if use a mix of those 2 criteria as the determining factor, then the winner is obvious.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Well if Fuji took straight games with CE + Cord Ball against Tezuka!Niou, then all Fuji needs to do is break one of Tezuka's games to win. However the reverse applies as well... If it goes to a tiebreaker, Fuji only needs to return ZSS once and keep his serve to win. Chances are that since he's seen the technique before he'll probably be able to return it by the end of the game.

 

[ashore]

or you could say its too close but i like person A better because he looks cooler so person A win! woot

demonstrating subjectivity, even if you free will to choice anyway you like.

 

[Ninomiya]

@ashore, Comparing to PoT to real life just doesn't work. Like it really doesn't work.
All Tezuka have of Fuji is ZSS.

Which I believe Fuji could eventually return at the tie-break.
Fuji won't drop a game whilst neither will Tezuka.

 

[Phantron]

Using both character's level at the end of POT since Fuji has done absolutely nothing in NPOT to draw any conclusion of his power, Tezuka would win rather easily. When Nioh cloned Tezuka he was already behind, and got to 5-4 and it was his serve. Even the random nobodies pointed out that at that point, just doing 4 Zeroth serve would be game over, but the cloned Tezuka cannot use Zeroth serve. The real Tezuka would be able to use it and so far it appears the only way to return the Zeroth Serve involves the speed of light (Rai) plus a 2 other techniques, so we'll assume Fuji can't do it (#9 and #10 can't do it, after all).

Honestly Fuji strikes me as the guy who plays ONLY the #1 guy in the whatever area you're in and then say, "Well everyone loses to that guy". Nioh returned Fuji's 5th counter in a single frame when he cloned Tezuka, which suggests to Tezuka, a special move by Fuji is just a normal rally. Fuji might be a fan favorite but with the moveset he is, he's nowhere on the same tier as Tezuka tier characters.

 

[Ninomiya]

Using both character's level at the end of POT since Fuji has done absolutely nothing in NPOT to draw any conclusion of his power, Tezuka would win rather easily.

How?
Fuji nullifies Saiki Kanpatsu, Hyakku Ren Jitoku, Tezuka Zone, Tezuka Phantom all through Closed Eye and the unreadable Cord Ball.

Tezuka can return all counters from 1 to 5. So its dead even except for one thing.
Tezuka's Zero Shiki Serve.
However, the principle is similar to Houou Gaeshi, and also, since the Nationals Fuji would have seen Tezuka use it at Seigaku for a while.

When Nioh cloned Tezuka he was already behind, and got to 5-4 and it was his serve. Even the random nobodies pointed out that at that point, just doing 4 Zeroth serve would be game over, but the cloned Tezuka cannot use Zeroth serve. The real Tezuka would be able to use it and so far it appears the only way to return the Zeroth Serve involves the speed of light (Rai) plus a 2 other techniques, so we'll assume Fuji can't do it (#9 and #10 can't do it, after all).

Secondly, Mouri managed to naturally return it. Except Niou had Tezuka Zone on it, otherwise who knows what could have happened. So it isn't as absolute of a serve anymore. It is returnable. So if Mouri can get it over the net, I imagine by around the tie-break Fuji could pull it off perhaps once.
I don't know if Fuji could win this, but there is no way Tezuka without TMnK is winning easily.

Also it was Fuji himself who pointed it out.

Honestly Fuji strikes me as the guy who plays ONLY the #1 guy in the whatever area you're in and then say, "Well everyone loses to that guy". Nioh returned Fuji's 5th counter in a single frame when he cloned Tezuka, which suggests to Tezuka, a special move by Fuji is just a normal rally. Fuji might be a fan favorite but with the moveset he is, he's nowhere on the same tier as Tezuka tier characters.

Tezuka at the end of PoT wasn't that out of reach from Fuji.
Did you read the manga?
Fuji completely nullified everything Tezuka had except for ZSS. Tezuka without TMnK shouldn't take a game from Fuji's service game. Going by techniques, it's tight between them when you remove TMnK.

Going back to PoT, Tezuka was only just above Atobe and Shiraishi.
But Fuji nearly reached his equal as that's how Konomi likely wanted to end things.
There wasn't a big gap at the end of the series.

 

[ashore]

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

@ashore, Comparing to PoT to real life just doesn't work. Like it really doesn't work.
All Tezuka have of Fuji is ZSS.

Which I believe Fuji could eventually return at the tie-break.
Fuji won't drop a game whilst neither will Tezuka.

doesn't ZSS put incredible pressure on the arm? or damage with multiple uses. I thought that tezuka wont play to hurt himself anymore

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------

Using both character's level at the end of POT since Fuji has done absolutely nothing in NPOT to draw any conclusion of his power, Tezuka would win rather easily.

I agree with that statement and disagree.
Its correct we haven't seen Fuji's strength in NPOT. we can only assume he has gained a bit more skill. like other players, he just did the rigorous physical training that U-17 camp requires.

But we also have to exam fuji's previous match shown to the manga readers , which is the natoinal finals from pot 1. And fuji shows he can return/counter tezuka's moves. Is the Clone tezuka as good as the Real thing? probably not. I will say niou did help win 5 games with tezuka's ZSS. alsorecall TnK is not allowed anymore.

And also please state your reasoning....why tezuka would win.

 

[Phantron]

Tezuka probably made the biggest gain since NPOT started (learning TMnK) so there's no point to talk about Fuji getting better because thus far, TMnK trumps anything at the middle school level so whatever Fuji may have learned wouldn't even matter.

Fuji was up 3-0 when Nioh cloned Tezuka, and then after some theoratically 'close calls' we're shown 5-4 with Nioh serving, and the commentor says if Nioh used 4 Zeroth Serve it'd be all over. There's no indication that Fuji can return the 0th serve.

Now if you work out the math, this means even in this 'super awesome close call fight', Nioh is ahead 5-1 after he cloned Tezuka. Assuming the cloned Tezuka is certainly no better than the real version, that means the real version would be up 5-1 if they start the match normally and then do 4 0th Serve in a row and end it 6-1. In fact it'd pretty much play out exactly like the game against Chitose. Tezuka has no problem doing 4 Zeroth Serve in a blowout and I'd say 6-1 is a blowout in POT.

It doesn't matter that the narration claims Fuji was able to defeat the clone Tezuka. The score shows very clearly that he was behind 1-5 against the clone Tezuka and the only thing that saved him was that the clone Tezuka cannot use the 0th serve. There's no way the real Tezuka would do worse than the clone so 6-1 is the best score Fuji can even hope for.

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------

As an aside I assume Tezuka has some reasonably good strategy on using his limited moves, even though he doesn't seem to be very good at budgeting his limited moves. We can assume you can only use some fixed number of total Tezuka Phantoms + 0th Serves, sort of like an equivalent pitch count in baseball, because both of these moves does massive damage to yourself. We know Tezuka's limit at the end of POT is 5 0th Serves + 16+ Tezuka Phantoms (he got 5 games off Sanada, and he has to use one of those 2 moves to get a point off Sanada, plus whatever Phantoms that got countered by Rin). On the other hand, the clone Tezuka's limit is 0 0th Serve + 1+ Tezuka Phantoms. We know from NPOT that Nioh takes the corresponding damage from whatever move he clones, which would explain why he has a limited number of usages on the 'limited moves'. Note that Fuji was not shown being able to counter the Tezuka Phantom (Nioh used it once, and then never again), so we'll have to assume Nioh stopped using the Phantom due to self preservation + limited efficiency while cloning.

Since it seems to be implied that Tezuka would've won if Sanada didn't use Rin, we can assume he can use 4X0th Serve + 20 Phantoms without irrecoverable damage. If Fuji cannot return the Phantom (no indication he can) then that alone is enough to win. But let's say one of Fuji's counter can deal with Phantom (the 4th one seems like it might work, though it's a mystery why he didn't use it against Nioh), you have to remember the fact that because the cloned Tezuka has a very limited number of Phantom usages, this implies the cloned Tezuka was using lesser moves while building a 5-1 edge. Unless the real Tezuka grossly misjudged his opponent and just started using Phantoms for no good reason, he is obviously capable of using all of his non self-mutiliating moves with minimal impact. Out of all his other moves, the ZSS probably has the highest 'self damage' factor and yet we see that Tezuka can still use it in a triple digit tiebreaker against Atobe with a busted shoulder (the point Tezuka lost was when he messed up the ZSS, which implies he's probably been relying on that move in the triple digit tiebreaker).

It's true Fuji seems to have a certain 'respond better under pressure' but as long as Tezuka didn't waste his first 4 0th serve while he's ahead, it really doesn't matter Fuji cannot break Tezuka's serve when he uses the 0th serve, so even if the score is say 5-4 with Tezuka serving, Fuji is still guaranteed to lose due to his inability to return the 0th serve.

 

[Ninomiya]

Tezuka probably made the biggest gain since NPOT started (learning TMnK) so there's no point to talk about Fuji getting better because thus far, TMnK trumps anything at the middle school level so whatever Fuji may have learned wouldn't even matter.

TMnK is not involved in the discussion.

Now if you work out the math, this means even in this 'super awesome close call fight', Nioh is ahead 5-1 after he cloned Tezuka. Assuming the cloned Tezuka is certainly no better than the real version, that means the real version would be up 5-1 if they start the match normally and then do 4 0th Serve in a row and end it 6-1. In fact it'd pretty much play out exactly like the game against Chitose. Tezuka has no problem doing 4 Zeroth Serve in a blowout and I'd say 6-1 is a blowout in POT.

Tezuka wouldn't have been able to break Fuji's serve with Closed Eyes and Cord Ball though.

It doesn't matter that the narration claims Fuji was able to defeat the clone Tezuka. The score shows very clearly that he was behind 1-5 against the clone Tezuka and the only thing that saved him was that the clone Tezuka cannot use the 0th serve. There's no way the real Tezuka would do worse than the clone so 6-1 is the best score Fuji can even hope for.

Not true.
Tezuka Phantom, Both doors of Muga Tezuka has and every technique does not work against Fuji except ZSS.
This simply cannot be a blow-out if only ZSS works on Fuji.

 

[Phantron]

TMnK is not involved in the discussion.


Tezuka wouldn't have been able to break Fuji's serve with Closed Eyes and Cord Ball though.


Not true.
Tezuka Phantom, Both doors of Muga Tezuka has and every technique does not work against Fuji except ZSS.
This simply cannot be a blow-out if only ZSS works on Fuji.

If you leave out TMnK then you've to leave Fuji's power at the end of POT, which is what I did but others were arguing Fuji could've gotten better while leaving TMnK out of Tezuka's arsenal.

Phantom was never returned by Fuji. Niou used Phantom exactly once and was never shown doing it again. Given Phantom is a rather dangerous move to yourself the most logical assumption is that he decides to stop risking his own arm. There is certainly no evidence that Fuji will be able to return it.

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that 'Tezuka's techniques do not work on Fuji'. Let me recap the events:

Fuji was up 3-0 against Niou.
Niou cloned Tezuka.
After some series of events, we're shown cloned Tezuka hitting the 5th counter cleanly over the net (no cord balls here) and winning the game and up 5-4.

This means Niou, after he cloned Tezuka, is up 5-1 against Fuji during this timespan. This is pretty much a blowout and yet apparently none of Tezuka's lesser moves (Niou cannot use the two most powerful moves) work on Fuji?

Closed Eyes was used when Fuji was down 5-1 and at that point it wouldn't matter because he can't return 0th Serve whether his eyes are open or not. You can't say 'what if he starts in that form' because that's never been shown to happen. The two instances he used Closed Eyes are all toward the end of the match, but if Tezuka is ahead at the end of the match and he hasn't wasted his 4 0th Serves then it wouldn't matter at all.

The clone Tezuka returned the 5th counter cleanly (shows him hitting deep in the opposite corner for the 5-4), so no reason the real Tezuka can't do the same. Tezuka has no particular dependence on hitting cord balls. We don't know why Shiraishi hits cord balls against the 5th counter (either he can barely get the ball over or he thought it's actually a good idea), but Tezuka has no such limitations.

Again I'm really amazed why people think cloned Tezuka going 5-1 on Fuji is supposed to be a sign that Fuji is a match for the real Tezuka, especially when Fuji also said the cloned Tezuka isn't anywhere as strong as the real one, and yet that clone was blowing him out 5-1.

 

[Ninomiya]

If you leave out TMnK then you've to leave Fuji's power at the end of POT, which is what I did but others were arguing Fuji could've gotten better while leaving TMnK out of Tezuka's arsenal.

Ohhh I get what happened here.
Read the rules bro.
We are doing Fuji all the way up til now, and Tezuka all the way up til now excluding TMnK.
This is because TMnK is the equivalent to Supersaiyan.

So with everything they have without Tezuka's TMnK, they are equal. But ZSS is the defining advantage.

I
Closed Eyes was used when Fuji was down 5-1 and at that point it wouldn't matter because he can't return 0th Serve whether his eyes are open or not. You can't say 'what if he starts in that form' because that's never been shown to happen. The two instances he used Closed Eyes are all toward the end of the match, but if Tezuka is ahead at the end of the match and he hasn't wasted his 4 0th Serves then it wouldn't matter at all.

Really makes little sense. That was when Fuji hadn't mastered Closed Eyes yet.
Fuji has now mastered Closed Eyes and can hit Cord Balls at the same time.

Tezuka cannot get a point off of CE + Cord Ball on Fuji's serve.

The clone Tezuka returned the 5th counter cleanly (shows him hitting deep in the opposite corner for the 5-4), so no reason the real Tezuka can't do the same. Tezuka has no particular dependence on hitting cord balls. We don't know why Shiraishi hits cord balls against the 5th counter (either he can barely get the ball over or he thought it's actually a good idea), but Tezuka has no such limitations.

Shiraishi hit cord balls against 5th Counter because he was unable to return it cleanly.
Did you not see the desperation in Shiraishi's face? Go and re-watch that episode or re-read it.

Shirashi was helpless for 3straight games. He gradually hit it higher and higher on the net til it tipped over the net.
Shiraishi cannot hit Cord Balls on demand like Fuji as far as we the readers are concerned.

Neither can Tezuka. We have never seen him hit Cord Balls in succesion on demand.
Don't know where your reasoning is coming from.

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------

Again I'm really amazed why people think cloned Tezuka going 5-1 on Fuji is supposed to be a sign that Fuji is a match for the real Tezuka, especially when Fuji also said the cloned Tezuka isn't anywhere as strong as the real one, and yet that clone was blowing him out 5-1.

This was all before Fuji brought out Closed Eyes and Cord Ball.
This was all before we watched him nullify Tezuka Phantom, Hyakku Ren Jitoku no Kiwami and Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami with his Closed Eyes and unreadable Cord Balls.

 

[Phantron]

I don't think it's fair to use characters up to NPOT without including TMnK especially since you don't actually have any idea how much Fuji improved (but presumably he did). That'd obviously be a pretty big disadvantage to Tezuka since TMnK was his major improvement between POT and NPOT. But if we go that path...

Fuji's style seems to be playing from a position of behind and he gets stronger when he's in a position of duress. You can't just say 'before training he only used Closed Eyes for two games but after training he can use it the whole time' because there's no way to prove or disprove that. Sure if Fuji starts out closed eye the whole time, he'd probably beat Tezuka very comfortably with TMnK disallowed. Note that Fuji only used Closed Eyes for two games against Niou, implying there's probably some kind of restriction on the move anyway. The cord ball is pretty much irrelevent as a random 3rd court fodder guy can hit cord balls almost at will. In the cloned Tezuka versus Fuji game, it seems to imply Tezuka Zone can also affect the ball on the front/back axis (there was a scene Tezuka smashed the ball, Fuji returned it with 2nd counter, and then Tezuka just sucked the ball back with Tezuka Zone even though the ball is clearly behind him).

The problem with Fuji's style is that the 0th serve is unreturnable, so you can't just get into a position of duress and come back because Fuji cannot return the 0th serve. If Tezuka is serving with 5-4 or better lead there's no way Fuji can win and we'll assume Tezuka correctly saves his serves only when victory is certain. While Tezuka is someone who is at 100% all the time, Fuji seems to take some time to warm up before his full potential can be realized (seems like duress awakens his competitive fire, or something along these lines) but you can't be in a position of duress against Tezuka as he'll just destroy you with his unreturnable moves.

At the nationals, it's said that Shiraishi is a tier above Fuji in all aspects. We know from NPOT that Tezuka has a higher base stat than Shiraishi, so by the transitive property we can assume Tezuka has a higher base stat than Fuji (not really all that surprising, really). Because the clone Tezuka has a 5-1 stretch against Fuji at nationals, we'll assume Tezuka still starts out as a better baseline player, so Tezuka is not expected to play from a position of being behind so we'll assume he'll get to 5 games before Fuji does. We can't factor in any new moves Fuji might learn because there is absolutely no information on them.

Now the question is how much ahead would Tezuka be ahead by? If you assume the scientific super training at U17 helps guys with lower stats compared to guys with already high stats more (it's generally harder to improve when you already start with high stats), then the baseline difference in the stats at U17 should be lower between Tezuka and Fuji compared to at nationals. For example if the score was 5-4 with Fuji serving, at that point he can use his Closed Eyes for two games and be up 6-5, or at worst be down 5-6 if Tezuka uses 0th serve during his serve and you might even say Fuji have an edge here even at 5-6 because he's the kind of guy who gets better under duress while Tezuka's power level is very constant (he doesn't hold back, so he has no hidden powerups to dig into either).

That said you still have the problem of whether Fuji can return the Phantom. #9 and #10 in the G10 can't return it. Intuitively, the 4th counter seems like it ought to work on the Phantom since it's very similar to Rin, but that wasn't what happened in the nationals between Niou and Fuji. A possible explanation might be that Rin can cancel out more spin compared to the 4th counter, but in that case we'd have no idea if an improved Fuji can cancel enough spin on Phantom to return it. It seems like he ought to be able to, but the only source of information we have says otherwise. If Fuji can't return the Phantom he'd have no chance. I went back and check the manga. The Phantom has a very distinctive vortex effect and Niou used it only once (to win the 1-3 game) and never again, so Fuji was never able to counter it in the one time Niou used it. Phantom is a higher tier move compared to even the first two doors, since Rai alone can counter both doors but Rai cannot beat Phantom. I say Rai can beat both doors because if Pinnacle of Great Wisdom is really just seeing the future then all you'd see is like: "Sanada is going to use Rai to hit to this spot, I'll try to return it but it'll blow my racket away... wow that sucks". Fuji's limit is around Rai level of techniques, which is pretty good, but Tezuka has two moves that are above Rai in terms of power. The three doors of Muga are more like the strongest moves you can learn without self mutiliation, so beating the first two doors is impressive but it's not the end all be all of techniques.

 

[Ninomiya]

You aren't reading anybody's posts are you?
You just type... But don't read anybody else's.

Fuji nullifies Phantom with Cord Ball and Closed Eyes. That is why Niou switched to Shiraishi. You've just ignored everything I wrote bro.
Come on, be fair.

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

TMnK is not part of the rules either man.
HJnK could not handle Rai. Either.
So your theory in the 2 doors being above Rai isn't correct.

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------

And Fuji is better than old No.9 and old No.10 in Singles.
You can find the discussion on here. It's not relevant right now.

I also don't want to explain to you a nth time that Tezuka without TMnK only has ZSS that can work against Fuji.

---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------

At the nationals, it's said that Shiraishi is a tier above Fuji in all aspects. We know from NPOT that Tezuka has a higher base stat than Shiraishi, so by the transitive property we can assume Tezuka has a higher base stat than Fuji (not really all that surprising, really).

At the Nationals Semifinals.
This is at the U-17 Camp now.
Nationals!Shiraishi could only tip the ball over the net against 5th Counter, and 6th Counter is the shot that only works against Cord Balls and is basically unreturnable.
Konomi wanted it that Fuji finished PoT all on the Top tier guys level.
He didnt know the fans would put PoT in massive demand and that he would give us a sequel.

 

[Phantron]

You aren't reading anybody's posts are you?
You just type... But don't read anybody else's.

Fuji nullifies Phantom with Cord Ball and Closed Eyes. That is why Niou switched to Shiraishi. You've just ignored everything I wrote bro.
Come on, be fair.

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

TMnK is not part of the rules either man.
HJnK could not handle Rai. Either.
So your theory in the 2 doors being above Rai isn't correct.

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------

And Fuji is better than old No.9 and old No.10 in Singles.
You can find the discussion on here. It's not relevant right now.

I also don't want to explain to you a nth time that Tezuka without TMnK only has ZSS that can work against Fuji.

I can only guess maybe the Anime has a different sequence of events but just that's not what happened in the manga. Here's the 5-4 game sequence:

Niou predicted score after 6 rallies.
Fuji used Closed Eyes to defeat the prediction.
Fuji wins 2 more games and get the score to 6-5.

Now you seem to assume that clone Tezuka was using Phantom on top of the prediction, but that makes no sense. If you're making a prediction with the Phantom, it'd simply be "3 rallies" every single time. That is, Tezuka serves, Fuji returns, Tezuka applies Phantom, Fuji hits it out of bounds. He can't be predicting Phantom getting returned safely because Phantom itself isn't hard to hit back, so if he can forsee that Phantom getting returned it'd be a repeat of the self-mutiliation sequence of Phantom versus Rin played 2 matches ago. The frames on Niou does not show the distinctive vortex effect for Phantom in the sequence of events between 5-4 and 5-6, but it does show him using the first two doors interchangeably. I've no problem with Fuji able to defeat the first two doors as that's an equivalent of Rai level of power, but that's why the real Tezuka can use Phantom.

You're also making the assumption that because certain guys probably has to win in any game they get into in the manga that this somehow means they're also correspondingly that powerful. It's hard to see Fuji losing if he does get a game at all given his popularity but this doesn't mean he is supposed to be more powerful as a baseline player. Ryoma almost certainly wouldn't lose whatever matchup he get against a G10 too but it doesn't mean his base stat is supposed to be higher than a G10. And Ryoma at least can hit 10 balls at the same time. Fuji has done absolutely nothing, and in such hypothetical matchup you can't count on the plot bailouts as part of the character power.

 

[ashore]

we dont know fuji's strength in U-17 camp, just like we dont know kaidohs. they never played.. you asssume improvement, but by how much.

all we see fuji do is the u-17 phsyical training.. xxx pushups ... xxx laps... etc and Tezuka did the same training so he too has improved with the u-17 training.

so who wins?

EDIT: fuji's improvement can't be quantified... so its subjective. so you use pot 1 record to compare to a player who has already shown improvement in u-17 battle.

Is anyone else going to discuss? other wise its back and forth between the same people.

 

[Phantron]

I don't think these discussion is supposed to be like: "If X played Y in the next chapter of NPOT who would win." You can simply look up the character popularity chart (check the Valentine chocolate list, for example), and for example Atobe will be heavily favored against fighting the entire G10 at the same time if this hypothetical match occurred. He'd probably just shoot laser beams from his eyes and kill the G10 instantly and won because he's a runaway fan favorite.

Fuji has a considerable edge on Tezuka in terms of popularity, so given POT almost always caters to the most popular characters he'd be a heavy favorite against Tezuka if the match took place in POT. It's no different than how Ryoma never loses any official match by the virtue of being the main character. If you want to argue like that, just read the Valentine chocolate list and throwing out characters that are too fringe to appear, the order of power would Atobe, Ryoma, Hirakoba, Sanada, Yukimura, Kite, and Fuji. Heck, you can see that in the current NPOT, how Kite went from a borderline nobody character to someone who seems likely to make #7 or #8 on the G10.

 

[Ninomiya]

Niou predicted score after 6 rallies.
Fuji used Closed Eyes to defeat the prediction.
Fuji wins 2 more games and get the score to 6-5.

Now you seem to assume that clone Tezuka was using Phantom on top of the prediction, but that makes no sense. If you're making a prediction with the Phantom, it'd simply be "3 rallies" every single time. That is, Tezuka serves, Fuji returns, Tezuka applies Phantom, Fuji hits it out of bounds. He can't be predicting Phantom getting returned safely because Phantom itself isn't hard to hit back, so if he can forsee that Phantom getting returned it'd be a repeat of the self-mutiliation sequence of Phantom versus Rin played 2 matches ago.

The frames on Niou does not show the distinctive vortex effect for Phantom in the sequence of events between 5-4 and 5-6, but it does show him using the first two doors interchangeably. I've no problem with Fuji able to defeat the first two doors as that's an equivalent of Rai level of power, but that's why the real Tezuka can use Phantom.

LOL, he used Prediction ONCE. It failed.
He didn't use prediction again.
Niou knows how to use his opponents abilities excellently. There is an obvious reason he became Shiraishi.
Out of desperation realizing Tezuka won't work, he became Shiraishi.

You're also making the assumption that because certain guys probably has to win in any game they get into in the manga that this somehow means they're also correspondingly that powerful. It's hard to see Fuji losing if he does get a game at all given his popularity but this doesn't mean he is supposed to be more powerful as a baseline player.

Nope. We are going by abilities here.
Your reasoning has been either weak or inaccurate so far.
Tezuka only has ZSS over Fuji here.
Since the rules the moderator for this thread set, were NO TMnK for Tezuka!!

When Fuji won those 2 more games. Niou did not take a point during those two more games.
Had Fuji unlocked Closed Eyes and Cord Ball, it means Niou without ZSS would have lost a straight set.
Please. Re-watch the episode. Or re-read the manga.

And last of all. We are going by Nationals!Fuji VS Nationals!Tezuka basically. We are not counting any ''plot bailouts''.
This means Tezuka could win, but not easily. Its all down to his amazing ZSS.
Please read people's posts before you lay down walls of text.

---------- Post added at 05:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 AM ----------

I don't think these discussion is supposed to be like: "If X played Y in the next chapter of NPOT who would win." You can simply look up the character popularity chart (check the Valentine chocolate list, for example), and for example Atobe will be heavily favored against fighting the entire G10 at the same time if this hypothetical match occurred. He'd probably just shoot laser beams from his eyes and kill the G10 instantly and won because he's a runaway fan favorite.

Valentine is linked to Tenimyu and stuff.
in the straight up Character popularity poll Fuji came first in the last one, but Fuji hasn't appeared getting better in the storyline. Sanada came 19th.
This means what you're saying doesnt mean a thing.
Sanada has been shown lots of times improving. So popularity doesn't mean much to Konomi.

---------- Post added at 06:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 AM ----------

Heck, you can see that in the current NPOT, how Kite went from a borderline nobody character to someone who seems likely to make #7 or #8 on the G10.

No.
He doesn't. Kite hasn't shown significant improvement. What he has shown is something we already knew he could do.
Kite does not look like he will be a Top 10 member.

 

[Kaoz]

Tezuka Kunimitsu: 8 votes
Fuji Shuusuke: 3 votes

Winner: Tezuka Kunimitsu