Discussion Shingeki no Kyojin: Before the Fall

[Sigma]

Incidentally, I found his plan kind of implausible. What was she teaching him that led him to think of a plan to gradually corrode the chains through use of bodily fluids? Or had he heard a clue to this idea before he was sold to this family?

Just my first impressions. Other than that at least it looks like the story is going somewhere interesting.

Yeah, I just chalked the chain corrosion plan up to bad writing. I didn't think that it was intentional to show Kyokuro's ignorance. I guess we'll find out when it comes time for him to break free. Either way I agree that things are becoming interesting and I like the overall direction the plot is taking.

Another interesting though crossed my mind; keeping with the Warcraft/Thrall style plot direction, I wonder if Kyokuro will go meet the titans as he plans? Will he then learn to communicate with them due to his unique origins and raise an army to attack the walls as Thrall raised an army of fellow orcs to attack the humans in Warcraft? What if Kyokuro is the one behind the attacks in the main continuity? Just speculation but interesting to think about.

 

[kannazuki]

That's a lot of Warcraft spoilers... :'(

What I meant was bothering me was not the plan itself, but how Kyukuro could come up with it in the first place. He is unlikely to have the life experience necessary to realize how chains rust, and I doubt it's something he would be get from the basic types of things Charle would be teaching him. A super-quick mention of what particular life experience or what related thing that Charle taught him (like maybe it was just a random piece of reading material she had him going over that mentioned chains rusting?) would have been nice. Otherwise, to me, it doesn't really follow that a completely uneducated person with no life experience (aside from being manhandled by human traffickers and their clients) could think of something like that at all.

As for what he does next, I saw a spoilerish comment or two about the light novels that lead me to believe that whatever else might happen with him, he has a certain specific event lined up for his future. Based on what we see in this chapter, and from how things looked in the first full chapter, I think that it might be true, too...

Spoiler: Kyukuro's future

He's going to be the first active soldier to wear 3DGM. The reason this chapter seems to fit that is because Shabii seems to be getting set up to meet Kyukuro again in the military after he escapes and disappears for a long time. And the reason I mention the first chapter is because I'm pretty sure there isn't a single soldier shown to be wearing 3DGM there, so it's unlikely to have been invented yet. It's unlikely they're going to keep one of the series' main draws (everybody loves 3DGM) out of the spin-off, so it looks pretty likely to me that spoiler comment was real...

 

[Sigma]

There could be several explanations for how he knew of chains corroding and rusting. I'm guessing it is just something he overheard at some point. If that isn't the case then Charle must have suggested it since she's in on his escape attempt.

Didn't click the spoiler so I can't comment on it.

Sorry for the WC spoilers but that info is literally around 15 years old.

 

[kannazuki]

To me, it's weak storytelling to expect the audience to believe that someone who has been enslaved and imprisoned all his life would have that level of understanding of how the world around him works. At least by how it's translated, it doesn't look like Charle helped him decide that either.

I don't know which WC you're referring to but I didn't finish all of them. Now I never will.

 

[Munboy]

Yeah, I just chalked the chain corrosion plan up to bad writing. I didn't think that it was intentional to show Kyokuro's ignorance. I guess we'll find out when it comes time for him to break free. Either way I agree that things are becoming interesting and I like the overall direction the plot is taking.

Another interesting though crossed my mind; keeping with the Warcraft/Thrall style plot direction, I wonder if Kyokuro will go meet the titans as he plans? Will he then learn to communicate with them due to his unique origins and raise an army to attack the walls as Thrall raised an army of fellow orcs to attack the humans in Warcraft? What if Kyokuro is the one behind the attacks in the main continuity? Just speculation but interesting to think about.

Isn't it also possible for him to eventually find Reiner and Bertholt's home town? If so, what you suggest could be plausible. Arguably there he learns to hate the humans within the wall (Bertholt was anxious to return home, so he would never return to the walls again) and uses his past experiences there to rationalise the hatred, and helps lead the attacks. Perhaps he'd be one of the higher ups that Ymir alluded too... a higher hype who may eventually change sides?

This of course, assumes that Charlie dies (adding to his bad experiences).

 

[Sigma]

To me, it's weak storytelling to expect the audience to believe that someone who has been enslaved and imprisoned all his life would have that level of understanding of how the world around him works. At least by how it's translated, it doesn't look like Charle helped him decide that either.

I don't know which WC you're referring to but I didn't finish all of them. Now I never will.

Yeah, I think the level of storytelling isn't as strong as the main series, particularly considering how rushed this recent chapter's plot seemed but the whole chain thing was a minor issue to me, I'm willing to overlook the fact that it's BS so long as the main plot stays interesting.

As for WC, it was either the second or third game that went over that stuff. Though I learned most of it from the novel Lord of the Clans.

Isn't it also possible for him to eventually find Reiner and Bertholt's home town? If so, what you suggest could be plausible. Arguably there he learns to hate the humans within the wall (Bertholt was anxious to return home, so he would never return to the walls again) and uses his past experiences there to rationalise the hatred, and helps lead the attacks. Perhaps he'd be one of the higher ups that Ymir alluded too... a higher hype who may eventually change sides?

This of course, assumes that Charlie dies (adding to his bad experiences).

That's a good point, Charle's death could be the breaking point for Kyukuro who's already suffered terribly at the hands of humans. It would be really cool to see this series tied in with the main series in some way too.

 

[kannazuki]

He seems to be falling for Charle though, as far as his facial expressions go anyway, and he doesn't seem to have any generalized hostility toward humans or he surely would have shown it to her when they first met. Even if he didn't strike her there are other ways to do that after all. (Technically this was strike two. Another earlier strike against the writing for me is that he had her hold the knife to his heart. I forgave that one already but holding it to his neck would make more sense, since it's instinctual knowledge even animals have. You never hear of a lion going for the wildebeest's heart. They always go for the carotid artery.)

Anyway, as you said it's the main plot that matters most. It's just that if there are a lot of these moments, it will eat away at my enjoyment of the main story.

 

[Solace Kane]

Quick thought on something that's been bothering me on the prologue:

Quote Quote:
Though there were many victims, the survivors had a strict gag order imposed upon them, and everything was stricken from the royal government's official records. However, the truth that the inside of the "wall" was previously breached by "them" 70 years ago is hardly known.

However, it really did happen...

the bold and underlined part in particular. Being breached from inside implies the titans were already there in the city which means one of two things to me:
shifters infiltrated the city ala trojan horse strategy, or they've been there all along. Which also brings me back to the king which was recently shown in the last chapter having a resemblance to the titan in the story book is no mere coincidence.

 

[Kaizou 10]

Shingeki no Kyojin Before the Fall going to release two special chapters: one from Bessatsu Shounen Magazine and other one is from Aria.

 

[PIXISSUUU]

We saw the Survey Corps leave Wall Maria for the first time in BTF Ch 6, and it looks really desolate. Its pretty different from both ACWNR and the Main SnK environment. Is it possible there was some disaster that lead to the outside world being a desert at that time, and then by the time of Levi's recruitment it had returned to being green? Or is this possibly just poor author coordination between the main story and spinoffs. Just seems like an interesting difference.

 

[iamtanmay]

PIXISUUU you fool !!!! Or should I say, BALTO KOU you foooolllll !

Erwin's Survey Corps travels from Trost and Karanesk towards Maria, while here, they travel South from Shinganshina. That is a difference of 100-200 km to the South !!!

The walls are in Germany (duh !). Maria covers all of Germany and maybe its neighbours. Shinganshina is the southern most point, meaning the Survey corps is likely near Italy or South France. Both are very arid in the summer and the chapter shows it perfectly.

Compared to Trost/Karanesk, which are in South/East of Germany. The landscape there is exactly what you see (I am German, so believe me xD).

The walls are set apart by 100-200 km. As you travel South from the Sina to Maria, you should expect a dramatic difference in climate. Chapter 1/ Episode 1 showed the survey corps in a forest in the rains, but that is likely a different season, you know ? The grass is quite green when Eren is sleeping so it isn't a dry period xD

Respect the Author's eye for such minor detail, that the average reader might not realise. I think he has done a fabulous job so far. I enjoy both the drawings and writing.

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

Oh BTW you guys, what part of the Titan did Kyklo stab ? It seemed like the eye, but if you look in the earlier pages, the Titan's eye is too far away for him to get there.

Was it the gums or the tongue ???

 

[TheOwl]

PIXISUUU you fool !!!! Or should I say, BALTO KOU you foooolllll !

Erwin's Survey Corps travels from Trost and Karanesk towards Maria, while here, they travel South from Shinganshina. That is a difference of 100-200 km to the South !!!

The walls are in Germany (duh !). Maria covers all of Germany and maybe its neighbours. Shinganshina is the southern most point, meaning the Survey corps is likely near Italy or South France. Both are very arid in the summer and the chapter shows it perfectly.

Compared to Trost/Karanesk, which are in South/East of Germany. The landscape there is exactly what you see (I am German, so believe me xD).

The walls are set apart by 100-200 km. As you travel South from the Sina to Maria, you should expect a dramatic difference in climate. Chapter 1/ Episode 1 showed the survey corps in a forest in the rains, but that is likely a different season, you know ? The grass is quite green when Eren is sleeping so it isn't a dry period xD

Respect the Author's eye for such minor detail, that the average reader might not realise. I think he has done a fabulous job so far. I enjoy both the drawings and writing.

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

Oh BTW you guys, what part of the Titan did Kyklo stab ? It seemed like the eye, but if you look in the earlier pages, the Titan's eye is too far away for him to get there.

Was it the gums or the tongue ???

The surface covered by the walls, including Wall Maria, is about 720.000 square km, while Germany's surface is about 360.000 square km. The only place in Europe where the walls fit is European Russia, and, at best, the westernmost territories of Wall Maria cover the easternmost territories of Germany. There was probably some sort of disaster. Appropriate, if the theory in which the Titans were created to stop humans from creating environmental problems is true.

Also, there is no need to insult anyone. And Kyklo stabbed the Titan in his eye, somehow.

 

[iamtanmay]

I am not insulting PIXISUUUU ! (Sorry, :P, it was just a joke). DOn't take me seriously at all, I am a lunatic.

You are wrong. You are right about both the sizes of Germany and the walls. Maria has a radius of 480km. I just went to google maps and put a marker in the center of Germany, and one at the border of Italy - I got 508 km walking ( http://s30.postimg.org/w6dz2iocv/Untitled.png ), which is close enough to Maria's radius give or take. That means, like I said, Shinganshina being the southern most point is near Italy or Southern France.

Every character except Mikasa has a German name, the title songs are in German, and the georaphy and architecture is medieval german. Its definitely in Germany.

It might be an eye, but the titan had his head back and eyes closed, if you look two pages before. ANd the dark spot could just be blood/shadow. It seems impossible from the image two pages back that he could in any way reach the eyes.

 

[iamtanmay]

There was also this picture: http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u432/utsune/d2d19047_zps06190bb6.jpg

If you move the German circles to the south and east, it will fit perfectly without going over water, and Maria will be in Italy. Which means that the Author was correct in showing the drier Italian landscape, if it was summer.

---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 AM ----------

Pixisuu, calm down. It was a joke. And lets keep it to English here.

Its definitely Italy, just different weather. It could have been drought also. This is set in the middle ages, not today's Italy.

And it seems reasonable that Levi's excursion was during a wetter season ? That's what I said. In chapter 1 of the main series, when Erwin's scouts are in the forest, it was raining.

All I am saying is, that bashing the author for showing that landscape is wrong. The region is plausible, the weather could have been different depending on the rainfall.

It makes sense with the geography. Just look at the two pics I posted. Maria's radius is 480 km, you can easily go from the center of Germany to Italy in that much.

---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 AM ----------

Pixisu, Italy is a large country. Towards the center and south, its much drier than in the north. In your picture the grass is very green. It could be the climate of the region, or it could be just a different season.

Like I said, take into account the geography, climate as well as the fact that they could have been having a drought for example. It seems quite plausible for such dry almost desert like terrain to occur in that area.

 

[TheOwl]

I am not insulting PIXISUUUU ! (Sorry, :P, it was just a joke). DOn't take me seriously at all, I am a lunatic.

You are wrong. You are right about both the sizes of Germany and the walls. Maria has a radius of 480km. I just went to google maps and put a marker in the center of Germany, and one at the border of Italy - I got 508 km walking ( http://s30.postimg.org/w6dz2iocv/Untitled.png ), which is close enough to Maria's radius give or take. That means, like I said, Shinganshina being the southern most point is near Italy or Southern France.

Every character except Mikasa has a German name, the title songs are in German, and the georaphy and architecture is medieval german. Its definitely in Germany.

It might be an eye, but the titan had his head back and eyes closed, if you look two pages before. ANd the dark spot could just be blood/shadow. It seems impossible from the image two pages back that he could in any way reach the eyes.

My calculations must have been off then. I apologize. I know very well that most of the characters' names are German (as does everybody :P , as well as the architecture and the titles of the opening songs. I'd love to know why though. Not that I mind, of course, I love Germany, and I love the fact that the Germans in here are not the stereotypical disciplined and rigid characters.

Let's get back to the discussion. If Shiganshina is truly near Italy , then isn't it supposed to be in the middle of the Alps? The terrain was pretty flat in the anime, manga and the Levi spin-off manga/light novel. Southern France is too far to be Shiganshina's location. Just because of the many German influences in the series, it does not mean that the walls are in Germany. I think you are new here so I don't believe you are familiar with this.

Anyway, we'll see on the next chapter what Kyklo actually stabbed. :P

If you move the German circles to the south and east, it will fit perfectly without going over water, and Maria will be in Italy. Which means that the Author was correct in showing the drier Italian landscape, if it was summer.

And certain parts of Wall Maria would be in the Adriatic.

@PIXISUUU

It is a bit impolite to speak German (or any other language) in an English site. No matter the nationality of the person you are replying to, most will probably not understand you.

 

[iamtanmay]

@TheOwl - I think its one of those situations where you have to take the author's word. I mean we can calculate all we want to, but we don't know for example, exactly where the center of the walls is or if the walls are perfectly circular. Because of that, Shinganshina could be anywhere from South Germany, to middle of Italy or Southern France. Its just too much guesswork you know ?

The only piece of fact we had was that one image from the anime where they show the different radius of the walls. That is too little information I think to precisely guess if Shinganshina is in the Italian alps, or more towards the south of Italy.

Plus, you know, like I said the weather could have been different. If the Survery Corps left during an intense drought, then all that desert terrain makes sense. Similarly, Erwin might have left during a much wetter season.

I don't want to argue, I was just irritated that people were slamming the author and the manga :P I actually read the light novel, and I thought that Before the Fall was adapted really well as a manga. I was telling all my friends who like Shingeki to read the unofficial translations on Tumblr xD

Like I said, I didn't want to argue, just thought it was unfair criticism of the author. Sorry if I offended anyone.

---------- Post added at 10:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

Actually I am not new here. I have been here for years, just lurking though ^_^, I know about the covers and also the controversy over the Title of the first chapter.

I think we can only guess based on the setting. The only hints have been the German names and architecture. What is interesting is some names sound Polish, like Karanesk and Trost. Shinganshina doesn't sound German at all. Levi actually could be French or Belgian or Dutch or God knows what xD

THe names of the walls - Maria, Rose and Sina - Sina is definitely German, but Maria could also be Italian or really any European country xD

 

[TheOwl]

@TheOwl - I think its one of those situations where you have to take the author's word. I mean we can calculate all we want to, but we don't know for example, exactly where the center of the walls is or if the walls are perfectly circular. Because of that, Shinganshina could be anywhere from South Germany, to middle of Italy or Southern France. Its just too much guesswork you know ?

The only piece of fact we had was that one image from the anime where they show the different radius of the walls. That is too little information I think to precisely guess if Shinganshina is in the Italian alps, or more towards the south of Italy.

Plus, you know, like I said the weather could have been different. If the Survery Corps left during an intense drought, then all that desert terrain makes sense. Similarly, Erwin might have left during a much wetter season.

I don't want to argue, I was just irritated that people were slamming the author and the manga :P I actually read the light novel, and I thought that Before the Fall was adapted really well as a manga. I was telling all my friends who like Shingeki to read the unofficial translations on Tumblr xD

Like I said, I didn't want to argue, just thought it was unfair criticism of the author. Sorry if I offended anyone.

---------- Post added at 10:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

Actually I am not new here. I have been here for years, just lurking though ^_^, I know about the covers and also the controversy over the Title of the first chapter.

I think we can only guess based on the setting. The only hints have been the German names and architecture. What is interesting is some names sound Polish, like Karanesk and Trost. Shinganshina doesn't sound German at all. Levi actually could be French or Belgian or Dutch or God knows what xD

THe names of the walls - Maria, Rose and Sina - Sina is definitely German, but Maria could also be Italian or really any European country xD

Don't worry, you did not offend me. We simply disagreed on a certain point, and it is not a problem. As for the names, isn't Trost the German word for consolation? Karanese is the actual name of the district according to the wiki. Definitely not German. Rico Brzenska is a Polish name. I think that Kara means black in Turkish. I have no idea what language Shiganishina is supposed to be in. Levi is a Jewish name. Maria and Rose are Latin, Sina could be as you said. There are some people with the last name Sina in my country, but I highly doubt the author even knows where Albania is :P .


In the end the population within the walls is pretty multi-ethnic, where the majority have German, or at least Anglo-Saxon/Germanic/Nordic origins. I wonder who named the Walls and Districts. And why s/he chose precisely those names. But these questions are for another topic.

 

[Super Angillis]

Or it could be it's not meant to be specific to any actual location. I mean historically we never had man eating regenerating giants being fought with compressed gas powered grappling hooks. Also, If some of what I read on TVTropes is accurate, the volume covers for SNK have some info that might change things.

 

[iamtanmay]

Shinganshina is Japanese.Trost is German, Brzenska is Polish. Is it Levi ? I thought it was Rivaille, which would be French. Maria and Rose are also German names with the same meaning as English. Karanese would be German.

I checked all the character names. They are all Germans except Rico, and maybe Jean was French. Mitabi Jarnach was the most exotic name, and that is German. Dot Pixis is also a German name.

I don't think its multi ethnic at all. It seems to be 99% Germans and maybe a handful from neighbouring countries, plus one Japanese. It seems all the non germans went the way of the orientals.

The ship on the cover of chapter one. Who was it bringing ? I think that might have been the Orientals, since Europeans would have travelled over land.

That might be how Shinganshina got its name. The Oriental refugees coming from the south.

@SuperAngilis - Oh it definitely is set in a geographically accurate setting. Also the historic setting is also accurate. You remember Hanje's rant about cannibals ? Well, that was a real thing. Sawney Bean is a legend in Scotland in the 1500s, which is believed to have some truth.

What that means is that SnK is set in a time after 1500 + 100 (time already spent behind the wall) = 1600 at least.

However, they have modern rifles in the series. If these rifles are flintlock, that puts the series in the early 1800s, if as Jean remarked, they have a magazine of 3 bullets, then they are breech loading, which puts them in 1860s.

There is also the hot air balloon that Armin's parents flew, as well as the revolver that the old guy was inventing, who got offed by the MP. Technologically, they are set in the 1860s after. Timewise I think 100 should be added, because scientific research in a population of only 1M people inside the wall would be 0, compared to the progress made historically. Because America and Europe where most of the progress took place, had hundreds of millions of people at the time. 1M would mean an absolute halt to tech progress.

 

[PIXISSUUU]

I checked all the character names. They are all Germans except Rico, and maybe Jean was French. Mitabi Jarnach was the most exotic name, and that is German. Dot Pixis is also a German name.

I don't think its multi ethnic at all. It seems to be 99% Germans and maybe a handful from neighbouring countries, plus one Japanese. It seems all the non germans went the way of the orientals.

I'm sure this has been talked about, but while this does seem to be a predominantly German population its not for certain that the story takes place in Germany. Even given the architecture and technology, there's no guarantee that its the late 1800s (many have talked about the cryptic nature of title of the first Anime episode). In fact, I'd say there's no guarantee that they are even on planet Earth.

There's no analogous terrain as the SNK world in Europe. Where are the Alps? Where do those mountains cross the walls? You'd be hard pressed to find matching terrain on Earth, although one person did locate a similar place in Eurasia. Then again, you'd have to explain why there are sequoia trees (or something even larger?) inside the walls. Two possibilities exist IMO: they are on another planet, or they live in a geoengineered region.

Your point about technological progress is right on target. How can such a small population with limited resources come up with such ingenious devices? Horse carts with suspensions better than a Mercedes, revolving pistols, 3DMG, grenades fired by firing pins and so on. It seems unlikely they'd progress so far. Technological development is dependent on having excess energy for innovation, trial and error. This is one of the social principles highlighted in Jared Diamond's Collapse and other works. They do seem to have vast stores of natural gas energy, but other than for 3DMG they don't appear to be using it. Plus they are constantly in food shortage, which hampers innovation. Furthermore, its clear that Titans are designed, and that kind of "biotech" is way beyond anything we could currently imagine (including building the walls in such a way). It seems more likely that the technology is brought in from the outside world just like the canned food in Castle Utgard. In my opinion, the walls, tech, and titans all point to the time period for SnK being WAAAAYYYY in the future. My paranoid mind suggests that there is in fact amazing technology outside the walls, but for some reason the humans inside the walls are being prevented from getting ahold of it, or developing it.

The only thing that's certain is that most of the people in the walls speak German and are European. We don't know where they came from as there's no history before the walls and all memories have been altered. Where they are and what era they live in is totally part of the mystery of SnK, and I'll be excited when the author makes the big reveal.