Life Suicides & suicidal thoughts.

[kannazuki]

This is not an impulse, it is a view based on limited knowledge as to my knowledge, many people who commit suicide do so because they don't want to face challenges anymore or because they give up instead of continuing to fight.

I wasn't just talking about you, but you can't deny that regardless of how long you deliberated over it, you had the impulse to type out the opinion and post it here. It's one thing to feel that way and to talk about it with people you know who aren't at-risk, but to publicly spread such a baseless idea in a thread for suicidal people? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

People don't choose their feelings. Of course, most of us can choose how to react to them to some extent, but not everyone is freely able to do so. Why are you so unwilling to consider that there can be numerous reasons (and probably the most powerful are physiological and social-- not just psychological) that people might struggle with managing their stress, and that suicidal people are among the most likely to suffer from more than one of those challenges to their well being? What do you lose if you give up the idea that some cases of people having suicidal thoughts have to be "cowardly?" Why it is so important for you to cling to beliefs that even you admit are poorly informed?

People only feel worse if you tell them that. Why the hell would I mention that to anyone contemplating suicide? Anyone who does that is an idiot, honestly. Reasons aren't irrelevant, they're just as important because if not for those reasons, suicidal thoughts can cease. It's hard to help a suicidal person when you don't know what's going on with them. Obviously not that many people choose to feel suicidal. It's a shitty, horrible feeling where you feel no hope.

You already did... ??? Have you read the first post of this thread and considered the intended audience for this thread? Did you at least skim through and get a feel for kinds of posts it contains?

I was responding to your judgment of suicidal people as "cowardly" when I said their reasons were "irrelevant." There are no "good" or "bad" reasons for a person to be suicidal. It is completely absurd to form a moral ranking of people's reasons for wanting to end their own lives. The act of suicide in and of itself cannot have any kind of moral value assigned to it-- at least from a secular standpoint. (If any philosophy students here want to jump in with utilitarian/deontological/aretaic thoughts about this, please go for it.) In the context of helping suicidal people, of course situation-appropriate help is needed (as I believe I also mentioned above). That is exactly when reasons for people wanting to end their lives become relevant!

Nobody chooses to become suicidal. Please educate yourself on this. It's a logical fallacy to believe the popularity of an idea like "suicide is cowardly" makes it true.

I believe I made a clear enough statement what "cowardice" meant in my own view, so, I'm not going to go back to it.
Fair point that the perspective does not accomplish anything. But not every perception of a human being brings anything beyond the natural chain of thought out. What suicidal people need and how another human's way of thinking may or may not effect the person in question is of no concern, as far as the inherent value of the thought is considered.

I was speaking generally about the popular urge among many people to publicly repeat and thereby reinforce the blatantly false and dangerously stigmatizing stereotype that suicide is "cowardly" in my earlier post. (I've heard that sentiment so many times, I've become quite weary of it.) Anyway, since you're replying to me now, I'll address that post: Your statement wasn't clear at all. The word "coward" has established meanings-- including a strongly connoted moral judgment-- that aren't erased by your post. You could easily have clarified either that you meant to use an entirely different word (more appropriate to what you seem to want to say), or given an alternate *valid* sense of the word coward (in theory), but instead you completely changed it to mean something like "hopeless." However you also divorced the word "hope" from suicide (see below). That's a non-sequitur.

Spoiler: more quotes here, to show what I mean

Suicide is a way of dealing with things for someone, who is basically unable to cling to anything, a "coward". Cowardice here is not a literal meaning. It is what I call people that have their will to live blocked by other stuff, which might be trivial or significant.

I think what you meant is in fact "hopeless," or better, "despairing," not cowardly. To be a "coward" does not mean "unable to cling to anything," but to be "hopeless" or "despairing" can. But you also said in another post:

I wouldn't bring the word "hope" into this context at all. And there are many people who commit suicide even when things are supposedly going their ways, so, it is indeed an ill-advised criteria, to begin with. I'd guess it's most likely due to the fear of status quo, that their lives won't ever be any different, and the things that are troubling them will never go away, is the factor that drives them into a corner, but it doesn't and it won't go beyond being a wild guess at best.

Perhaps you might reconsider your rejection of the application of "hope(less)" here? You've been consistently describing hopelessness pretty well. You might want to decide if you're going to condemn suicidal people by calling them "cowardly," or if you want to speak of it as a tragedy by calling them "hopeless" or "despairing."

There is no such thing as not jumping to ill-informed conclusions. We are not talking specific people or their specific ways of thinking. We are, in fact, bound to make assumptions, and be wrong at them, so, I don't see what is there to be asked about.

When someone generalizes about suicide without experiential knowledge or any regard to existing quantitative and qualitative empirical data and their "conclusion" is just to repeat the popular viewpoint based on scant second or third-hand anecdotal information, I think I can call that jumping to conclusions. In order not to be jumping to conclusions, you'd have to have either experienced it firsthand, experienced treating people for it, or read up on it at the very *least*.

 

[Hakuteiken]

Well, my bad that I thought it was in reply to my earlier post or at least somewhat related to it, then.

I simply erased the word's established meaning, and/or the value it possessed in my perspective, the moral judgment that is inherently linked through. Thus, I don't think there is any point in talking through a dictionary link and looking up the word's so-called-true definition. It's so-called-true, since what is true for me may or may not have anything to do with something you can consider "common". You seem to be calling my own description of words a non-sequitur here, which, ironically, I can't quite follow up after the prior argument.

I'm refraining from using "hope" in a regular context in relation to the topic, since I do tend to believe having hope and being able to live through supporting yourself with your hopes are entirely different things. So, the "coward" who couldn't cling to the hopes, because of mentality, circumstances and anything related, might still have his hopes and in fact, he mostly likely should. Otherwise, that would contradict the argument that "No one wants to be in this state of mind", which is fair enough on its own and should rather stay untouched.

I fail to see why I have to take such a sharp pattern in my own thoughts, however. I'm merely on the common ground between the stark contrast sides. I don't condemn people for having suicidal thoughts or any kind of such tendency, nor sympathize with them and express it as a tragedy of any sorts. In the simplest words, to live is to move. You can get through everything and move forward, you can keep getting stuck and move backwards or you can stop moving at all, and end it. Hence, the notion of suicide goes hand to hand with what life is. And I won't ever describe anything that life shows me with a word like tragedy, one that treats our lives as a rendition of a petty melodrama. Now this is non-sequitur, basically. Oh well.

On another note, I didn't say you couldn't call what we do as jumping to conclusions. Even with knowledge, data or firsthand experience, if someone ever calls himself or herself capable of understanding true human nature and psychology, I will only call that impudent. I myself move along with my own thought process, rather than playing other people's arguments by ear, and this is what I structured myself when I had suicidal thoughts of different nature.

 

[reesestl]

Lots of people see suicide as a way out of their miserable life, and I personally find that cowardly, in most cases.

So, you pass a judgement on them. How does it achieve anything. Will the person stop because you think its cowardly?

 

[kannazuki]

So, you pass a judgement on them. How does it achieve anything. Will the person stop because you think its cowardly?

People want to believe in a just world in which anyone can pursue their personal happiness. People want to believe just actions bring a reward, and unjust actions bring punishment. But since happiness unfortunately comes easier to some than others*, and since we're never really guaranteed to be rewarded/punished for our good/bad deeds, it takes a lot of conscious awareness of others' suffering (not to mention some understanding of the human condition) to get past the typical taboos and dubious "moral" nonsense people are instructed to believe about suicide and actually comprehend what it's really about and how to truly help.

When you hear someone judging another person for being suicidal, it's more of a reflection of the judgmental party's cognitive dissonance over possible evidence of the existence of an unjust world than anything else. To such people, if someone is suffering, then they had to have "deserved" it somehow. (It's basically a form of illness-shaming, which is also a sadly common thing.)

Personally, I've come to believe that suicide rates (among numerous other societal health-related statistics) should be taken as seriously as economic indicators like GDP.

(*yes happiness is a state of mind for most people, but it's dangerous to assume that's the case for everyone no matter what)

 

[reesestl]

People want to believe in a just world in which anyone can pursue their personal happiness. People want to believe just actions bring a reward, and unjust actions bring punishment. But since happiness unfortunately comes easier to some than others*, and since we're never really guaranteed to be rewarded/punished for our good/bad deeds, it takes a lot of conscious awareness of others' suffering (not to mention some understanding of the human condition) to get past the typical taboos and dubious "moral" nonsense people are instructed to believe about suicide and actually comprehend what it's really about and how to truly help.

When you hear someone judging another person for being suicidal, it's more of a reflection of the judgmental party's cognitive dissonance over possible evidence of the existence of an unjust world than anything else. To such people, if someone is suffering, then they had to have "deserved" it somehow. (It's basically a form of illness-shaming, which is also a sadly common thing.)

Personally, I've come to believe that suicide rates (among numerous other societal health-related statistics) should be taken as seriously as economic indicators like GDP.

(*yes happiness is a state of mind for most people, but it's dangerous to assume that's the case for everyone no matter what)

Problem is the suicidal person is the worst judge of himself. This just reinforces his self-judgement. And he keeps judging every negative thought and try to suppress it and tries to force himself to think differently. That never works. So I really feel strongly about it.

 

[kannazuki]

Problem is the suicidal person is the worst judge of himself. This just reinforces his self-judgement. And he keeps judging every negative thought and try to suppress it and tries to force himself to think differently. That never works. So I really feel strongly about it.

I think that's very true where depression is involved, and most of the time with suicide there will be depression involved. Self-judgment and self-blame are typical features of depression (and part of the road to becoming suicidal in the first place). What saddens me is that for every suicidal person there must be several hundred (if not thousands) who are happy to tell them they're lazy/stupid/crazy/selfish, etc., confirming all of the terrible things they already fear might be true in the first place. Amidst all of those hundreds (or thousands) of people that think you can bully someone out of suicide, there are a small handful that truly get that suicidal people need to be shown better options than (or easier pathways to achieve) whatever they are able to figure out at the moment. Then they need gentle convincing that good solutions or alternatives for their current problems are realistic and attainable despite all the obstacles they face. Such understanding, supportive people are not only few and far between, but they're not evenly distributed. Not everyone has access to the emotional support they need. Some are literally all alone, while others are only surrounded in unsupportive people. To me, that is a damn shame. That's part of why I think lowering overall suicide rates is a societal responsibility (there's a lot more to why I think this, but I don't want to go on a tangent).

 

[M3J]

So, you pass a judgement on them. How does it achieve anything. Will the person stop because you think its cowardly?

Yes I do, on many of them. No, I don't care what they think about it or what the judgment achieves. Unlike many other people, I'm not dumb to tell them they're cowards for thinking about suicide, especially when different people have different reasons. Main thing anyone can do is talk to them positively and with an understanding, open mind, if not just listen to them. Callin them a coward would invalidate their feelings and thoughts, and it helps no one.

People want to believe in a just world in which anyone can pursue their personal happiness. People want to believe just actions bring a reward, and unjust actions bring punishment. But since happiness unfortunately comes easier to some than others*, and since we're never really guaranteed to be rewarded/punished for our good/bad deeds, it takes a lot of conscious awareness of others' suffering (not to mention some understanding of the human condition) to get past the typical taboos and dubious "moral" nonsense people are instructed to believe about suicide and actually comprehend what it's really about and how to truly help.

When you hear someone judging another person for being suicidal, it's more of a reflection of the judgmental party's cognitive dissonance over possible evidence of the existence of an unjust world than anything else. To such people, if someone is suffering, then they had to have "deserved" it somehow. (It's basically a form of illness-shaming, which is also a sadly common thing.)

Personally, I've come to believe that suicide rates (among numerous other societal health-related statistics) should be taken as seriously as economic indicators like GDP.

(*yes happiness is a state of mind for most people, but it's dangerous to assume that's the case for everyone no matter what)

I don't think most people deserve suffering, and I blame the society for lot of suicides because a lot of people are hesitant to talk about mental issues like depression, or there is so much pressure on certain people that they just can't deal with it anymore. I'm pretty sure tackling mental health issues can help lower the rates of suicide instead of ignoring it or treating people like shit.

 

[Freid]

If someone could convince me that there's life after death then suicide wouldn't be so terrifying. But to just not exist is a concept I'd have a hard time coming to terms with. I imagine most people are simply afraid of dying too. It would be easier if life was just a video game where we could just quit and restart. I'd probably beat it and unlock all the achievements too...but instead it's a shitty poker game and I got dealt a bad hand.

If I could relive any part of my life, it'd be my teenage years. Those years were a bliss. No responsibilities and no worries beyond getting in trouble at school and having my dad beat my ass when I got home. But that was nothing and I leveled up every time..... Fast forward to now and I'm no longer the happy go lucky dude I used to be. The only part of my younger self I still have left is my optimism for the future. I still have goals and aspirations, so I ain't ready to kick the bucket just yet.. And I think that's what some people really need. To find something they can look forward to.

So for me, I know life is gonna keep giving me lemons but ima keep making lemonade.

 

[Dried Ambrosia]

supportive people are not only few and far between, but they're not evenly distributed. Not everyone has access to the emotional support they need. Some are literally all alone, while others are only surrounded in unsupportive people.

Although I agree with your idea of support and understanding, there are situations in which the person suffering from severe depression does not consider he has a problem and that he needs help. In such cases it is difficult to fight someone else's battle for years and eventually give up.

 

[Doughboy]

I never came close to the thought of actually wanting to kill myself but I thought of how it would be say if we all died from a natural disaster or if I died from that. Like who would care really for you

 

[DeadCosmos]

no post since 2017? ANyways... I think im doing it soon, writing this because I think it will help me. I just never fit well into this world, my life could be going completely fine and I would still have suicidal thoughts, ever since i was 14 , i wanted to do it. I planned to do it when I was 18 because I could get a gun but that hasn't gone well due to certain laws and what not. I was a kid so I thought dumb things ofcourse. I was always good at making friends but bad at keeping them, I think it is opposite for everyone else. I believe society will collapse in a few decades which is part of the reason I want to go. Getting rich wouldn't matter because I would just lose it all or it wouldn't be as valuable. I had a bad childhood especially growing up kinda poor in the worst state in america...california. The pandemic really screwed up my life even though I was already planning to go. I did try to partially hang myself before a few months ago but it didnt work. I tried again recently and cowered out, looked back on the things going on with the pandemic, people, politics and told myself I would do it again. The people in this world really bother me, makes it hard for me to focus with all the inconsistencies and ridiculousness. Life is just harder to live... higher education, higher housing, pretty much higher everything and it's still going up, especially now with the war and stuff. I think everyone is going crazy because of the screens, im even on one right now! All the mental problems has to be from the screens!. I think Artificial Intelligence is already taking over like a virus, it is taking over our brains, it is here, we are the AI! I think I can do it, I can get the right angle and tightness, I feel pretty full of energy despite it being night, if it's not tonight, im pretty certain it's tomorrow, will keep you updated! Also I think it all has to be a simulation or some mind game, it doens't make nay sense.

 

[Riku]

no post since 2017? ANyways... I think im doing it soon, writing this because I think it will help me. I just never fit well into this world, my life could be going completely fine and I would still have suicidal thoughts, ever since i was 14 , i wanted to do it. I planned to do it when I was 18 because I could get a gun but that hasn't gone well due to certain laws and what not. I was a kid so I thought dumb things ofcourse. I was always good at making friends but bad at keeping them, I think it is opposite for everyone else. I believe society will collapse in a few decades which is part of the reason I want to go. Getting rich wouldn't matter because I would just lose it all or it wouldn't be as valuable. I had a bad childhood especially growing up kinda poor in the worst state in america...california. The pandemic really screwed up my life even though I was already planning to go. I did try to partially hang myself before a few months ago but it didnt work. I tried again recently and cowered out, looked back on the things going on with the pandemic, people, politics and told myself I would do it again. The people in this world really bother me, makes it hard for me to focus with all the inconsistencies and ridiculousness. Life is just harder to live... higher education, higher housing, pretty much higher everything and it's still going up, especially now with the war and stuff. I think everyone is going crazy because of the screens, im even on one right now! All the mental problems has to be from the screens!. I think Artificial Intelligence is already taking over like a virus, it is taking over our brains, it is here, we are the AI! I think I can do it, I can get the right angle and tightness, I feel pretty full of energy despite it being night, if it's not tonight, im pretty certain it's tomorrow, will keep you updated! Also I think it all has to be a simulation or some mind game, it doens't make nay sense.

Modern life is definetly stressful and problematic. I don't see a full collapse of society happening though. People will eventually always group up and build something new and do their best to maintain it. It's in our nature.

For some people the "screens" are a saving. I had really hard times as a teenager as well, but having the screens as a means to find interesting things and communities helped me a lot.

I've played with the thought when younger and always came to conclusion that there is always someone I'd hurt and that is enough argument against it. Another thought is, that even if all might feel doomed and pointless, in the reality there are still small things and moments I enjoy. It might be hard to notice and acknowledge those moments sometimes, but they exist for most of us. And we should embrace the little things. The media always glorifies big fancy careers and achievements, but in the end it is actually the little personal things that really are important.

 

[Sanity Check]

Friendly reminder

Its normal to feel bad about war in russia.

And higher prices in stores and gas pumps.

If you feel bad about these things, something isn't wrong with you.

Its a normal reaction.

 

[Riku]

Indeed it is.

 

[DeadCosmos]

Well, its been about a week since my last post and i was supposed to do it. I've been trying for multiple days and other days, procrastinating. Emotions are so strong, so much stronger than I thought. Everytime I go up, i get the weird feeling, i feel scared, i even feel tired and don't even want to stand up. Im not fat, im about 120. The last time (20 minutes ago) I was about to do it, I did not feel the same feeeling I felt from the previous almost 20 "Attempts". I think im just gonna go on living and see where I go. If life doesnt work out, I will probably try again, and I wanna say I will be able to do it by then since I almost just did. I think I could have done it there but my family, my dog, I don't like them but there's just some connection that is so hard to sever. Suicide is much harder than I thought, the emotions are too much.

 

[Riku]

I don't know you, but glad you didn't go thorough with it. Just take it slow and try to be kind to yourself. It'll probably take time, but I'm sure you'll eventually feel better and finds things to live for.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2022, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2022 ---

Also high recommend for therapy, if it's plausible to go. (I know there might accessibility, financial and social issues that might prevent it).

Not right away though imho. Some recovery time first. It's not an easy process for the mind. But pays off.

 

[Sanity Check]

Everyone is guaranteed to die someday.

No need to rush the process.

 

[KidWithAScarOnHisLeg]

I don't know if I am suicidal or not. Sometimes I do feel happy, but only with others. Everytime I am alone I start to think and become sad. Why shouldn't I do it? It's not like I have a lot going on in my life. I don't feel like an importent person. I feel like a failure in so many ways. I go to school, yet feel sad and unhappy with it. I always thought I wanted to work in this field, but now that I am working towards it. I hate it. I don't have any interrests and the few things I do (Video games, Reading, Watching anime, Browsing my PC) will only hold my attention for 30min to 1 hour. Then I just sit and feel sad. I try to listens to things and it works, for the most part. But when I have to go to bed, everything I quiet and I feel scared. I turn the lights of and become scared. Why? Idk.

I have a really hard time seeing the future. I might be an "adult" but don't feel like it in any way. How am I supposed to survive for the next 60 years. I am scared of the day I am all alone. No parents, no friends, no animals. What am I going to do? What should I do? The "easy" way is of course always an option.

Sometimes when I am driving a car I get this feeling, this impulse of wanting to drive into oncoming traffic. But then it's gone again. Do I want to die? Idk.

I think to much. A lot of the time I think about things that don't need to be thought about. Nothing bad, but more of a thinking too much about something I can't do anything with.

I am fine with a shallow life if I won't have any problems.

Sorry for ranting. Sorry if there are grammer mistakes. Sorry.

 

[DeadCosmos]

I don't know if I am suicidal or not. Sometimes I do feel happy, but only with others. Everytime I am alone I start to think and become sad. Why shouldn't I do it? It's not like I have a lot going on in my life. I don't feel like an importent person. I feel like a failure in so many ways. I go to school, yet feel sad and unhappy with it. I always thought I wanted to work in this field, but now that I am working towards it. I hate it. I don't have any interrests and the few things I do (Video games, Reading, Watching anime, Browsing my PC) will only hold my attention for 30min to 1 hour. Then I just sit and feel sad. I try to listens to things and it works, for the most part. But when I have to go to bed, everything I quiet and I feel scared. I turn the lights of and become scared. Why? Idk.

I have a really hard time seeing the future. I might be an "adult" but don't feel like it in any way. How am I supposed to survive for the next 60 years. I am scared of the day I am all alone. No parents, no friends, no animals. What am I going to do? What should I do? The "easy" way is of course always an option.

Sometimes when I am driving a car I get this feeling, this impulse of wanting to drive into oncoming traffic. But then it's gone again. Do I want to die? Idk.

I think to much. A lot of the time I think about things that don't need to be thought about. Nothing bad, but more of a thinking too much about something I can't do anything with.

I am fine with a shallow life if I won't have any problems.

Sorry for ranting. Sorry if there are grammer mistakes. Sorry.

Im pretty sure lots of people feel what you feel, even people who dont identify as suiciidal or depressed. Ofcourse you will feel sad when lonely, almost everyone feels that way, its completely normal. You not feeling happy except when you are with others, that is normal and logical, humans are stronger in a pack, and to reproduce, they must be together with someone of the opposite gender... what you are feeling is completely natural. Your brain makes you feel sad as an incentive to make you get friends to be happy! According to things I read, many people apparently would kill themselves if they had easier accessibility, so you might not be truly suicidal or very suicidal at all. I know that if I had access to a gun, I would be dead right now! I would suggest either getting friends in real life or getting friends online. Many people stare at screens all day, even for their job... that is just the world we live in today. so it is okay to live in the online world. I personally feel much better with friends online, playing games and stuff. I guess you could try putting yourself out there more so you can get a better understanding of the world, yourself, and others, I think thats what you need.

 

[ninjabot]

Im pretty sure lots of people feel what you feel, even people who dont identify as suiciidal or depressed. Ofcourse you will feel sad when lonely, almost everyone feels that way, its completely normal. You not feeling happy except when you are with others, that is normal and logical, humans are stronger in a pack, and to reproduce, they must be together with someone of the opposite gender... what you are feeling is completely natural. Your brain makes you feel sad as an incentive to make you get friends to be happy! According to things I read, many people apparently would kill themselves if they had easier accessibility, so you might not be truly suicidal or very suicidal at all. I know that if I had access to a gun, I would be dead right now! I would suggest either getting friends in real life or getting friends online. Many people stare at screens all day, even for their job... that is just the world we live in today. so it is okay to live in the online world. I personally feel much better with friends online, playing games and stuff. I guess you could try putting yourself out there more so you can get a better understanding of the world, yourself, and others, I think thats what you need.

I'm glad you didn't end your life yet by the way. I don't know if saying that is okay or not, because I don't want you to feel guilty for having suicidal thoughts... like you'd feel like you're letting me down whenever you think about it. I won't promise you things like life'll get better or it'll get easier... but I know for a fact that it can't get better if you're not around to see what's beyond the horizon.

That goes for anyone else here who has attempted suicide or is thinking of doing so. Take things one step at a time. Be selfish. Live for yourself and your own happiness. Even if it's just a videogame release you're excited about playing, or a new movie you've been looking forward to, life itself is a series of experiences and it's punctuated by the ones that stand out in your mind the most. Fill yours with the ones that make you happy, no matter how superficial you might think they are. Your joy isn't superficial, no matter how superficial the thing that brings you joy is. And the relationships you make a long the way during the enjoyment of these things that make you happy could be lifelong attachments.

I'm not suicidal or having suicidal thoughts, but I DO see a therapist bi-weekly to deal with my problems of pretty severe social anxiety. I know it isn't comparable, I just wanted to point out that I'm on a journey of self improvement as well.