Discussion Three Way Deadlock Examples

[mathematicianrcg]

If you guys watch naruto, there is an example of three way deadlock

This is the opposite of Transitive Property (If A > B, and B > C, then A> C)

In three way Deadlock, it is like rock, paper, scissors

Character A Beats Character B

Character B Beats Character C

But Character C Beats Character A

---
What are some examples of this? I will start.

Some examples in my mind.

1. Atobe Beats Romeo. Romeo Beats Tezuka. Tezuka Beats Atobe.

2. Yukimura Beats Sanada. Sanada Beats Fuji. Fuji Beats Yukimura.

(I mean the Fuji that would have beaten Ryoma if not for the rain in that intra tourney pre finals) (not 100% sure if Fuji Close eyes can negate yips)

3. Bismarck Beats Tanegashima. Tanegashima Beats Zeus. Zeus Beats Bismarck ( Not very sure about this though since Maybe Bis can beat Zeus too) (Or Zeus is actually stronger than both of them if no one time trick will be involved)

What are some other examples?

 

[Hardy]

I'm not sure I agree with any of these examples hahaha. Getting a W once doesn't mean you are stronger. It's playing the match 100 times and winning 60~, with no development on either side.

Closed Eyes shouldn't negate yips. Eventually he'll lose the other senses, too.

A lot of people think that, in the Nationals, Yukimura>Sanada>Tezuka>Yukimura. I don't agree but there's an argument for it.

You can make a lot of triangles with hax players and immunities:

-Kabaji since he can copy and beat someone very strong, then lose to someone like Jirou because he cannot copy his wrists.
-Ninja's ability is extremely strong but Sanada's Shadow counters it. Maybe someone like Yuushi could do the same. And yet a lot of players are much stronger than Yuushi.
-Fuji with just 3 or 4 counters would likely lose Tachibana, who back then should be a bit worse than Chitose, but Fuji can also use Closed Eyes and counter Chitose's Saiki. It's a bit murky but I think it works.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I'm not sure I agree with any of these examples hahaha. Getting a W once doesn't mean you are stronger. It's playing the match 100 times and winning 60~, with no development on either side.

Closed Eyes shouldn't negate yips. Eventually he'll lose the other senses, too.

A lot of people think that, in the Nationals, Yukimura>Sanada>Tezuka>Yukimura. I don't agree but there's an argument for it.

You can make a lot of triangles with hax players and immunities:

-Kabaji since he can copy and beat someone very strong, then lose to someone like Jirou because he cannot copy his wrists.
-Ninja's ability is extremely strong but Sanada's Shadow counters it. Maybe someone like Yuushi could do the same. And yet a lot of players are much stronger than Yuushi.
-Fuji with just 3 or 4 counters would likely lose Tachibana, who back then should be a bit worse than Chitose, but Fuji can also use Closed Eyes and counter Chitose's Saiki. It's a bit murky but I think it works.

Oh wait. We saw a true example back in POT.

Tachibana beats Fuji. Fuji Beats Akaya. Akaya Beats Tachibana. (These 3 matches happened iirc though Tachibana Fuji is a practice match but still)

-----
But I am looking for an example in Npot U17.

I think the best bet is:

Tanegashima Beats Zeus (We saw this though due to a one time trick)

Bismarck Beats Tanegashima (We saw this in singles match they had)

The question is if Zeus beats Bismarck.

 

[chikkychappy]

Oh wait. We saw a true example back in POT.

Tachibana beats Fuji. Fuji Beats Akaya. Akaya Beats Tachibana. (These 3 matches happened iirc though Tachibana Fuji is a practice match but still)

Akaya beat traumatized Tachibana. Tachibana who couldn't respond to Akaya's assaults because it reminded him of the violence he inflicted on his best friend. Probably thought he deserved it.

Tachibana > both of them (back then)

Anyway I'm still sad Tachibana got sidelined...

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Akaya beat traumatized Tachibana. Tachibana who couldn't respond to Akaya's assaults because it reminded him of the violence he inflicted on his best friend. Probably thought he deserved it.

Tachibana > both of them (back then)

Anyway I'm still sad Tachibana got sidelined...

Well Japan Coaches really picked

Marui and Oishi over Tachibana and Chitose.

 

[chikkychappy]

Well Japan Coaches really picked

Marui and Oishi over Tachibana and Chitose.

I still light a candle every day, I LOVE THOSE TWO

(Although I think you mean Konomi, cos coaches did pick them. Konomi just sidelined them for the stupidest reason....)

 

[Hardy]

Oh wait. We saw a true example back in POT.

Tachibana beats Fuji. Fuji Beats Akaya. Akaya Beats Tachibana. (These 3 matches happened iirc though Tachibana Fuji is a practice match but still)

-----
But I am looking for an example in Npot U17.

I think the best bet is:

Tanegashima Beats Zeus (We saw this though due to a one time trick)

Bismarck Beats Tanegashima (We saw this in singles match they had)

The question is if Zeus beats Bismarck.

Tachibana was already back to his Kyushu self when he played Fuji so it doesn't really track.

Tanegashima beat Zeus with a trick in a round that Konomi described as "a battle that could only be won once in a 100 times".

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2023 ---

Akaya beat traumatized Tachibana. Tachibana who couldn't respond to Akaya's assaults because it reminded him of the violence he inflicted on his best friend. Probably thought he deserved it.

Tachibana > both of them (back then)

Anyway I'm still sad Tachibana got sidelined...

Was he traumatised? He had given up on that tennis completely, attacking back was never an option.

I remember that I once read that Kirihara won as a bit of a fluke since Tachibana lowered his guard and briefly didn't match Red Eyes' pace, and got injured in the process. Kirihara then proceeded to take advantage of this. But I never found that text ever again so I cannot say it was legit.

 

[-Ken-]

I think this is true at the end of PoT/start of NPoT

Yukimura Beats Sanada
Sanada Beats Tezuka
Tezuka Beats Yukimura

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I think this is true at the end of PoT/start of NPoT

Yukimura Beats Sanada
Sanada Beats Tezuka
Tezuka Beats Yukimura

Can someone review me why?

Because

Sanada Forest + Lightning Counter Tezuka Zone/Phantom?

Yukimura Counters all Sanada technique. We saw that in their OVA match.

But why Tezuka beats Yukimura back in Nationals?

 

[-Ken-]

Well Japan Coaches really picked

Marui and Oishi over Tachibana and Chitose.

Well... Marui do give a decent match against 1st stringer...

Tachibana and Chitose lose to 3rd Court pair... which is below 2nd court.. and below 1st court... and below 11-20 1st stringer... Oishi at least manage a win against 1st stringer. I think I remember reading somewhere that they don't master the beast syncho yet either. I cannot found it so I might imagine that though.

 

[Hardy]

But why Tezuka beats Yukimura back in Nationals?

The argument is that Yukimura didn't have a way to counter any of Tezuka's moves back then. Ryoma managed to use Saiki against him, too.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2023 ---

Well Japan Coaches really picked

Marui and Oishi over Tachibana and Chitose.

Maybe they didn't. Tachibana and Chitose were selected and gave up on their spots. Assuming that Kirihara and Ryoma were always going to get selected because of potential, then Kite (rank 12) and Oishi (rank 11) got in thanks to this.

 

[chikkychappy]

Well... Marui do give a decent match against 1st stringer...

Tachibana and Chitose lose to 3rd Court pair... which is below 2nd court.. and below 1st court... and below 11-20 1st stringer... Oishi at least manage a win against 1st stringer. I think I remember reading somewhere that they don't master the beast syncho yet either. I cannot found it so I might imagine that though.

Except Tachibana and Chitose actually got chosen but they declined for the dumbest reason Konomi came up with. We don't see all the matches. For every on-screen upgrade the others work in the background to keep up cos Konomi likes and respects his characters (esp MSers). We haven't seen Oshitari do shit and he still took 3 games from Atobe after his many upgrades.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Tachibana was already back to his Kyushu self when he played Fuji so it doesn't really track.

Tanegashima beat Zeus with a trick in a round that Konomi described as "a battle that could only be won once in a 100 times".

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2023 ---

Was he traumatised? He had given up on that tennis completely, attacking back was never an option.

I remember that I once read that Kirihara won as a bit of a fluke since Tachibana lowered his guard and briefly didn't match Red Eyes' pace, and got injured in the process. Kirihara then proceeded to take advantage of this. But I never found that text ever again so I cannot say it was legit.

Looking about it again. Maybe we underestimated Zeus. (Most here considered Zeus the weakest Captain in the Captain Thread). (Weaker than the Big 3, Ralph, Amadeus, and Camus)

But if this new version of Upgraded Tanegashima cant still win most of the time against Zeus. Then, Zeus is strong as hell.
(And he will be in the next WC. Interesting)

As for Tachibana, I am not sure he had something to counter Akaya's Hurting Leg on Purpose shot. ( I agree that Tachibana is better in a fair fight though). While Fuji manage to handle the Hurting of Akaya. However, Tachibana and Fuji will always have a fair fight because of their personalities, and we know the former is more skilled at that point.

 

[Hardy]

I think what hurt Zeus' reputation a bit was that Niou copied him and then it ended up being the weakest Illusion, winning a single game before being completely useless. Also, Niou's Illusion was supposedly perfect at that point.

In hindsight we know that the Illusion wasn't perfect at all, since he couldn't even copy 50% Byoudouin. But the impression remained.

Also, being fair, the other captains listed were leaders of top 5 Nations (and Byoudouin) so it's kinda expected that the Captain of #10 (a non-seeded team) is a step below them.

I could be wrong but IIRC Tachibana got hit in the head first, with the smash that the PS2 games call Napalm (just like Fuji). So he may have played dizzy with a concussion or sth.

 

[chikkychappy]

Was he traumatised? He had given up on that tennis completely, attacking back was never an option.

I remember that I once read that Kirihara won as a bit of a fluke since Tachibana lowered his guard and briefly didn't match Red Eyes' pace, and got injured in the process. Kirihara then proceeded to take advantage of this. But I never found that text ever again so I cannot say it was legit.

I'm not really sure, it's been a while but that's the impression I remember getting. I think Tachibana's whole backstory was being revealed around this time that's why maybe I thought that way.

I know Tachibana was nerfed back then, but even if he was taken off guard at a moment, I find it hard to believe that he didn't find a way to somehow recover, fight back and lose with a more respectable score. That's why I assumed something just broke within in him. But who knows.

 

[-Ken-]

I think it's just Konomi changing Kirihara position up. Kirihara was make to be equal to Fuji during the Kantou final. Kirihara actually also seemed like an actual menace even in the National, putting extreme pressure on Inui who is even with Renji via Kantou final at that point.

Then in NPoT... Kirihara just get stomp by Renji. And that's where things change. Rather than Tachibana getting nerf back then, I feel like it's more like Kirihara got nerf hard at the beginning of NPoT.

 

[chikkychappy]

Can anyone explain howtf Inui win against Renji? Or does everyone just accept that it's bulls***?

 

[Hardy]

I'm not really sure, it's been a while but that's the impression I remember getting. I think Tachibana's whole backstory was being revealed around this time that's why maybe I thought that way.

I know Tachibana was nerfed back then, but even if he was taken off guard at a moment, I find it hard to believe that he didn't find a way to somehow recover, fight back and lose with a more respectable score. That's why I assumed something just broke within in him. But who knows.

Nah

Fuji went blind when he got hit in the head, I don't think it's unreasonable to think Tachibana was affected in some way as well.

Then in NPoT... Kirihara just get stomp by Renji. And that's where things change. Rather than Tachibana getting nerf back then, I feel like it's more like Kirihara got nerf hard at the beginning of NPoT.

Not too sure that's a nerf. Data Tennis just works like that.

Can anyone explain howtf Inui win against Renji? Or does everyone just accept that it's bulls***?

Inui's data was better than Yanagi's.

 

[Ganonslayer101]

Can anyone explain howtf Inui win against Renji? Or does everyone just accept that it's bulls***?

They're roughly equal in Data, but Inui is better at gathering Data mid match and had high base stats (relative to the time) which let him make better use of the data.
The focus on physical abilities he learned from Ryoma and the perseverance he lwarned from Kaidou let him take it. Even then it was roughly 50/50
Also Sanada directly calls Yanagi out for letting his emotions take over which likely left him falling into Inui's pace.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I always thought Renji is a better player than Inui. Since Renji is considered one of Rikkai's Big 3. While Inui is not even top 3 in Seigaku. (Tezuka, Ryoma, Fuji). And even became reserve at early part of story. Even though, it is slightly..... Lol

But anyways,

Nowadays, Inui is better than Yanagi.

Since that data Master in Genius 20 beat Yanagi easily. But Inui won against him, and earned the badge