Discussion Three Way Deadlock Examples

[Hardy]

They're roughly equal in Data, but Inui is better at gathering Data mid match and had high base stats (relative to the time) which let him make better use of the data.
The focus on physical abilities he learned from Ryoma and the perseverance he lwarned from Kaidou let him take it. Even then it was roughly 50/50
Also Sanada directly calls Yanagi out for letting his emotions take over which likely left him falling into Inui's pace.

Not sure that's the case since Inui led the match straight where he wanted, to replicate the same scenario that was setup when they were kids.

There's no way his stats were better than Yanagi's. The latter is significantly ahead in NPoT. Inui's physicals were just THAT low at the start of PoT and the extra training regime just allowed him to catch up a bit.

Imo Inui just prepared himself better, put more effort and is a real singles player (whereas Yanagi leans more towards doubles).

Also Yanagi gets some sort of debuff whenever things don't go the way his past data dictated. He grows confident seeing the % of his victory increase, but the opposite applies as well (even going as far as giving up against Mitsuya when his odds reached 0, I don't see Inui ever doing that).

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 30, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 30, 2023 ---

Considering that Inui doesn'thave nearly as much data on Akaya as Yanagi, maybe the triangle applies there as well.

I always thought Renji is a better player than Inui. Since Renji is considered one of Rikkai's Big 3. While Inui is not even top 3 in Seigaku. (Tezuka, Ryoma, Fuji). And even became reserve at early part of story. Even though, it is slightly..... Lol

But anyways,

Nowadays, Inui is better than Yanagi.

Since that data Master in Genius 20 beat Yanagi easily. But Inui won against him, and earned the badge

Yanagi got selected and Inui didn't so that doesn't really fit the reality. It was some sort of 2v1 that defeated Mitsuya (which is why Inui handed the badge to Yanagi). Also, Yanagi evolved his data even further and can get it from someone like Mouri, which was in theory impossible. This makes Ohmagari's feat against him even better, looking back.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Oh yeah.

Maybe

Inui Beats Yanagi

Yanagi Beats Akaya

Akaya Beats Inui

(At least back in Nationals)

Demon Akaya back then can just injure and injure Inui.

However, Yanagi can easily handle Demon Akaya.

 

[Ganonslayer101]

Oh yeah.

Maybe

Inui Beats Yanagi

Yanagi Beats Akaya

Akaya Beats Inui

(At least back in Nationals)

Demon Akaya back then can just injure and injure Inui.

However, Yanagi can easily handle Demon Akaya.

If we take Inui's statement at face value: before he collapsed, he told Kaidou that he had finished gathering data. While there's a chance it was just to snap Kaidou out of Devil Mode, I think it was Yanagi or someone else who takes it seriously (praises him for gathering data in that precarious beating). So it's possible Inui, if he rematched Akaya pre U17-Camp he could also handle him.

It was pretty consistently shown that Inui's initial data is weaker, but he can gather data mid-match better. Prior to teaming up with Mouri, Yanagi wasn't shown to alter his data mid-match. So Yanagi has the upperhand on Akaya because he knows him very well, but it isn't unreasonable to get Inui to that point.

 

[-Ken-]

If we take Inui's statement at face value: before he collapsed, he told Kaidou that he had finished gathering data. While there's a chance it was just to snap Kaidou out of Devil Mode, I think it was Yanagi or someone else who takes it seriously (praises him for gathering data in that precarious beating). So it's possible Inui, if he rematched Akaya pre U17-Camp he could also handle him.

It was pretty consistently shown that Inui's initial data is weaker, but he can gather data mid-match better. Prior to teaming up with Mouri, Yanagi wasn't shown to alter his data mid-match. So Yanagi has the upperhand on Akaya because he knows him very well, but it isn't unreasonable to get Inui to that point.

[Prince of Tennis] PairPuri Vol 4 Kikumaru x Niou Data Tennis [pg.36]

PairPuri vol 4 Kikumaru x Niou Let's hear from those datamen!! [pg.36] Thanks to yukimuzic for the scans! I couldn't resist data tennis, so here it is. Advisers next. The first direct survey for the U-17 training camp members! Side Tennis. Let's hear from those datamen!! (players of the data tennis…

fanbook.livejournal.com

Pair Puri actually put Inui as prepare data beforehand+put efforts type, where as Renji actually lean toward Adaptation type. It seemed different as what is shown in the story (Inui getting Devil Kirihara data and get Mitsuya data), but eh.

Bertie might actually be extreme opposite of Inui. He's probably the Genius+Adaptation type, with a much higher base stats of course.

 

[Ganonslayer101]

[Prince of Tennis] PairPuri Vol 4 Kikumaru x Niou Data Tennis [pg.36]

PairPuri vol 4 Kikumaru x Niou Let's hear from those datamen!! [pg.36] Thanks to yukimuzic for the scans! I couldn't resist data tennis, so here it is. Advisers next. The first direct survey for the U-17 training camp members! Side Tennis. Let's hear from those datamen!! (players of the data tennis…

fanbook.livejournal.com

Pair Puri actually put Inui as prepare data beforehand+put efforts type, where as Renji actually lean toward Adaptation type. It seemed different as what is shown in the story (Inui getting Devil Kirihara data and get Mitsuya data), but eh.

Bertie might actually be extreme opposite of Inui. He's probably the Genius+Adaptation type, with a much higher base stats of course.

That's really not how Inui was presented, but I won't argue with Pair Puri or databooks I guess

 

[-Ken-]

Yeah, it's weird. I would also think Inui done better than Renji. But I supposed Japanese coach see things differently, and that selection is also based on potential and growth and stuff.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I have some more examples in my Mind. But it's all theoretical and assumption

1. Alan Beats Peter. (Actually the former should have won if not for pity). Peter Beats Kiko. Kiko Beats Alan.
(Switzerland thought Kiko will play S2, but USA outsmarted them with putting Alan to counter Peter)

2. Fuji beats Kintarou, Kintarou beats Yukimura. Yukimura beats Fuji.

( The logic is Fuji doesn't have TNK or any Aura or counter to Yips and Dream. So he will lose all of his senses and his future will be stolen,.
meanwhile Kin TNK nullifies Yukimura's Yips/Dream. And Fuji is winning the poll against Kintarou in my other thread)

(Just like having to deal with Tezuka's Zone is half the battle. being able to deal against Yukimura's Yips/Dream is half the battle as well)

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I'm not sure I agree with any of these examples hahaha. Getting a W once doesn't mean you are stronger. It's playing the match 100 times and winning 60~, with no development on either side.

Closed Eyes shouldn't negate yips. Eventually he'll lose the other senses, too.

A lot of people think that, in the Nationals, Yukimura>Sanada>Tezuka>Yukimura. I don't agree but there's an argument for it.

You can make a lot of triangles with hax players and immunities:

-Kabaji since he can copy and beat someone very strong, then lose to someone like Jirou because he cannot copy his wrists.
-Ninja's ability is extremely strong but Sanada's Shadow counters it. Maybe someone like Yuushi could do the same. And yet a lot of players are much stronger than Yuushi.
-Fuji with just 3 or 4 counters would likely lose Tachibana, who back then should be a bit worse than Chitose, but Fuji can also use Closed Eyes and counter Chitose's Saiki. It's a bit murky but I think it works.

I finally found a perfect example

Yukimura Beats Fuji

Fuji Beats Kintarou

Kintarou Beats Yukimura

Hmmm. Yeah. That works.

 

[Hardy]

How does current Kin beat current Yuki if Fuji is better than him?

 

[mathematicianrcg]

How does current Kin beat current Yuki if Fuji is better than him?

Because Kin has TNK To Counter Yuki' Yips and Dream

It is Yuki's Bread and Butter.

It is like in Tezuka's Case. If you can deal with his Zone, it is half the battle.

Same case here imo. If you can deal with Yuki's yips/dream. Then it is half the battle.

Now, it will result into skills vs skills of Yuki and Kin. And I believe Kin has a chance.

 

[Hardy]

Because Kin has TNK To Counter Yuki' Yips and Dream

It is Yuki's Bread and Butter.

It is like in Tezuka's Case. If you can deal with his Zone, it is half the battle.

Same case here imo. If you can deal with Yuki's yips/dream. Then it is half the battle.

Now, it will result into skills vs skills of Yuki and Kin. And I believe Kin has a chance.

But then Yukimura steals Kin's future (his strongest move) and the game is over. Unless you level Kin to Tezuka despite the fact that Tezuka is a top 3 Mser in the world and Shiraishi didn't think Kin could win the Singles 2 mini tournament.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

But then Yukimura steals Kin's future (his strongest move) and the game is over. Unless you level Kin to Tezuka despite the fact that Tezuka is a top 3 Mser in the world and Shiraishi didn't think Kin could win the Singles 2 mini tournament.

Why?

Do you really need to be as good as Tezuka minimum to beat Yuki?

Isnt it consensus that Tezuka is a significantly better player than Yukimura?

 

[Hardy]

Why?

Do you really need to be as good as Tezuka minimum to beat Yuki?

Isnt it consensus that Tezuka is a significantly better player than Yukimura?

Not necessarily but it's the one bar we have. As strong as TnK is, Tezuka was still affected by his moves.

In the doubles match they played against each other they seemed to be rallying at a relatively equal level with the caveat that we know Yukimura's Mental peak against Tezuka was much higher and also never got to steal anyone's future (since it was doubles and a single set match? I dunno).

 

[mathematicianrcg]

But then Yukimura steals Kin's future (his strongest move) and the game is over. Unless you level Kin to Tezuka despite the fact that Tezuka is a top 3 Mser in the world and Shiraishi didn't think Kin could win the Singles 2 mini tournament.

Yuki's Future stealing Kinda annoys me because it wasnt explained properly.

And more importantly, it wasnt explained how it was broken!!!

Yuki was s stealing tezuka's future in the last set.

But in the last 2 games. Suddenly, he cannot do it anymore?

Tezuka did nothing remarkable that shows negating the future stealing

But we all know Tezuka played more seriously in the end.

Does that mean

Yuki's stealing Future cannot be used against a player very very superior to him?

For example,

Yuki wont be able to steal Oni' Future beacuse Oni is too Strong for him?

 

[Tsuntsun]

Yuki's Future stealing Kinda annoys me because it wasnt explained properly.

And more importantly, it wasnt explained how it was broken!!!

Yuki was s stealing tezuka's future in the last set.

But in the last 2 games. Suddenly, he cannot do it anymore?

Tezuka did nothing remarkable that shows negating the future stealing

But we all know Tezuka played more seriously in the end.

Does that mean

Yuki's stealing Future cannot be used against a player very very superior to him?

For example,

Yuki wont be able to steal Oni' Future beacuse Oni is too Strong for him?

There is an analysis on Yukimura's playstyle in Atobe vs yukimura (Romeo). Atobe says, "Using mirrage mirror he is able to increase his attack range, as well as five senses and future... but the truth is simply attacking the opponent's weak spots, this is the most effective, simple attack."

 

[Ganonslayer101]

Yuki's Future stealing Kinda annoys me because it wasnt explained properly.

And more importantly, it wasnt explained how it was broken!!!

Yuki was s stealing tezuka's future in the last set.

But in the last 2 games. Suddenly, he cannot do it anymore?

Tezuka did nothing remarkable that shows negating the future stealing

But we all know Tezuka played more seriously in the end.

Does that mean

Yuki's stealing Future cannot be used against a player very very superior to him?

For example,

Yuki wont be able to steal Oni' Future beacuse Oni is too Strong for him?

Anyone else notice that the Yip upgrades are just... worse? Dream is temporary and Future requires you to be able to win the point in multiple positions. Whereas Yips often just.. works for no reason

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Anyone else notice that the Yip upgrades are just... worse? Dream is temporary and Future requires you to be able to win the point in multiple positions. Whereas Yips often just.. works for no reason

Yes. Thats why Yuki's techniques cannot be understood sometimes.

In comparison to Tezuka.

We all know how Tezuka Zone, Phantom, Ultimate Zone, and Zero Shiki shots are working.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 6, 2024, Original Post Date: Feb 21, 2024 ---

How does current Kin beat current Yuki if Fuji is better than him?

Now, Kin is definitely stronger than Yuki imo. Lmao

 

[Hardy]

...Yeah but Kin is way stronger than either of them now, lol.