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Quality over quantity . Goku has probably more feats than most of the characters in this tournament. He is even older than most of us.Doesn‘t Goku have a lot more feats to his name?
Thing is DB characters can overpower hax by through their power. Vegeta literally overpowers babidi's mental manipulation, vegito ssj was able to resist buu's transmutation beam which killed others, goku literally outspeeds hit's time skip, goku broke out through hit's pocket dimension, freeza, goku are able to resist existence erasureI said I would post yesterday, but I preferred spending the rest of my Sunday night watching animes instead.
How can Urek beat Goku? My answer quite simple actually. Anyway, he definitely needs to remove his limiter for this one.
First, if you haven't read it, I advise you to read my post in the Urek VS Mob thread where I talk about him and the verse. I even put some feats and facts in bold for the TLDR people .
As strong as Urek is, I am not going to argue that he can beat Goku in a classic slug fest even if we haven't seen his full power. Maybe I could, after all, Urek is extremely skilled at close combat, enough to defeat the best swordsman of the verse, who masters a sword style allowing him to never miss his targets, meanwhile in Dragon Ball the more you advance the more you start to wonder if skills really matter.
Most DB characters are quite vulnerable to hax and Goku is no exception. Urek can simply use Compression and overpower him after that or seal him.
If you read my previous post, you already saw that Compression can be used on living beings and objects. Here is an an example of the former:
Compression when used on living beings doesn't only affect their size, it also nerfs them so they are weaker. In fact, some characters in ToG stay in compressed form and unleash their full power once they get serious.
And again if you read the first post you'll see that Urek can easily compress a whole forest and reduce it to the size of a fist. Considering the AOE, hand to hand is meaningless against this technique and so is UI. Moreover, Goku's height makes him much easier to shrink. If someone can reduce a forest to the size of a fist, why would he have trouble shrinking a 175 cm man and make him even smaller than a fist?
So, as I said earlier, after compressing him Urek can simply crush him, stomp him or whatever or also seal him in a box Mafuba style. A classic technique which is still effective to this day in Dragon Ball. But unlike with Mafuba Urek doesn't need to care about wasting his life force and doesn't need to aim because of its wide range.
That's all.
Quality over quantity . Goku has probably more feats than most of the characters in this tournament. He is even older than most of us.
Babidi's mind manipulation was never stated to be that great. Vegito did get transmuted, but he was strong enough to defeat Buu nonetheless, that's not the same thing. Hit's Timeskip is still effective, albeit less effective and so on, it affected even Jiren.Thing is DB characters can overpower hax by through their power. Vegeta literally overpowers babidi's mental manipulation, vegito ssj was able to resist buu's transmutation beam which killed others, goku literally outspeeds hit's time skip, goku broke out through hit's pocket dimension, freeza, goku are able to resist existence erasure
Babidi literally could control dabura who was stronger than perfect cell. And perfect cell is far stronger than thr likes of frieza who can destroy large planets to dwarf stars.Babidi's mind manipulation was never stated to be that great. Vegito did get transmuted, but he was strong enough to defeat Buu nonetheless, that's not the same thing. Hit's Timeskip is still effective, albeit less effective and so on.
In one of the recent arcs of DBS Moro had no issue absorbing Goku and Vegeta's power. Also, the Mafuba is still unmatched. These little special abilities always work in DB and at this point it's the only way to make some antagonists threatening.
I swear this part killed meI said I would post yesterday, but I preferred spending the rest of my Sunday night watching animes instead.
How can Urek beat Goku? My answer quite simple actually. Anyway, he definitely needs to remove his limiter for this one.
First, if you haven't read it, I advise you to read my post in the Urek VS Mob thread where I talk about him and the verse. I even put some feats and facts in bold for the TLDR people .
As strong as Urek is, I am not going to argue that he can beat Goku in a classic slug fest even if we haven't seen his full power. Maybe I could, after all, Urek is extremely skilled at close combat, enough to defeat the best swordsman of the verse, who masters a sword style allowing him to never miss his targets, meanwhile in Dragon Ball the more you advance the more you start to wonder if skills really matter.
Most DB characters are quite vulnerable to hax and Goku is no exception. Urek can simply use Compression and overpower him after that or seal him.
If you read my previous post, you already saw that Compression can be used on living beings and objects. Here is an an example of the former:
Compression when used on living beings doesn't only affect their size, it also nerfs them so they are weaker. In fact, some characters in ToG stay in compressed form and unleash their full power once they get serious.
And again if you read the first post you'll see that Urek can easily compress a whole forest and reduce it to the size of a fist. Considering the AOE, hand to hand is meaningless against this technique and so is UI. Moreover, Goku's height makes him much easier to shrink. If someone can reduce a forest to the size of a fist, why would he have trouble shrinking a 175 cm man and make him even smaller than a fist?
So, as I said earlier, after compressing him Urek can simply crush him, stomp him or whatever or also seal him in a box Mafuba style. A classic technique which is still effective to this day in Dragon Ball. But unlike with Mafuba Urek doesn't need to care about wasting his life force and doesn't need to aim because of its wide range.
That's all.
Quality over quantity . Goku has probably more feats than most of the characters in this tournament. He is even older than most of us.
Babidi could control Dabura because he was evil, not because his magic is all powerful. Also I have to ask... Where are you getting those weird facts as Freeza being capable of destroying dwarf stars?Babidi literally could control dabura who was stronger than perfect cell. And perfect cell is far stronger than thr likes of frieza who can destroy large planets to dwarf stars.
Where are you getting those weird facts as Freeza being capable of destroying dwarf stars?
I didn't complete the Moro arc but I don't remember he or the Kaioshin being that strong? I am quite sure that they were all scrubs compared to our Saiyan duo. IIRC Moro only became a threat once he started to absorb energy.Babidi literally could control dabura who was stronger than perfect cell. And perfect cell is far stronger than thr likes of frieza who can destroy large planets to dwarf stars.
Everyone other than vegito getting transmuted could never move their bodies an they all died.
As i said goku still was able to overcome timeskip.
Dbs Moro is one of the strongest characters in the series. His Magic was strong enough to the point where even the dai kaio had to use almost all of his powers to seal his magic powers. And vegeta literally showed us that he could break out of moro's telekinesis after transforming into ssj
My point was that UI would be useless against Urek's Compression because it's an AOE move. UI is really important in close ranged battles. He can't really dodge an omnidirectional move which can encompass a whole forest..I swear this part killed me
That being said, its true DB characters can break through weird haxy techniques through raw power. Pretty stupid concept most of the time but still true.
For that alone I lean slightly towards Goku here. Urek is damn strong and fast even without shinshu but MUI Goku is "theoretically" peak martial ability, so I would bet on him even if we equalize speed.
That said
Babidi could control Dabura because he was evil, not because his magic is all powerful. Also I have to ask... Where are you getting those weird facts as Freeza being capable of destroying dwarf stars?
Let me get this straight. UI actually attacks before user even thinks. He can compress a whole forest.My point was that UI would be useless against Urek's Compression because it's an AOE move. UI is really important in close ranged battles. He can't really dodge an omnidirectional move which can encompass a whole forest..
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And where does it ever says that his mind control isn't powerful ? Show us some scans.Frieza casually destroys large planets with a single blast. And before you scream where is large planets, it has been already stated that namek and planet vegeta are far bigger than earth. And through scaling it's not wrong to say that frieza can destroy a dwarf star with his full powered attackI swear this part killed me
That being said, its true DB characters can break through weird haxy techniques through raw power. Pretty stupid concept most of the time but still true.
For that alone I lean slightly towards Goku here. Urek is damn strong and fast even without shinshu but MUI Goku is "theoretically" peak martial ability, so I would bet on him even if we equalize speed.
That said
Babidi could control Dabura because he was evil, not because his magic is all powerful. Also I have to ask... Where are you getting those weird facts as Freeza being capable of destroying dwarf stars?
UI allows him to react without thinking, it doesn't give him foresight. He can't just know what is coming to him and it truly applies to hand to hand battles.Let me get this straight. UI actually attacks before user even thinks. He can compress a whole forest.
But goku's body in UI very easily percepts the attack and move away to other planet and send a blast tht can destroy entire planet from there..Don't think urek could compress tht huge level.
I thought no one would mention IT . We don't know the speed of the Compression, but we do know that Urek's attacks reach light speed. As you said these things are hard to measure. Yes, IT could allow him to escape from being sealed, but it wouldn't allow him to negate the primary effect of Compression ie size reduction and abilities nerf. It would also not allow him to prevent being potentially crushed. Urek is also able to use Spatial Distortion to teleport and stuff, it has even been stated that he could kill all organisms on a floor(which are at least continent-sized) simply with that.Next i would say instant transmission.......As urek starts or begins compression, what stops goku from just moving out at speed of light to another place. I don't think compression speed would still equal moving at speed of light or have tht gravitational force to actually capture object moving at speed of light.
Next i would say reaction speed, which is hard to measure but i would like to give DB characters a bit of advantage even here. Battle starts
Scenario 1- teleport behind and put a hand through urek or use energy blast
Scenario 2- just send a continent level blast at urek and make him compress or dodge and such.
Basically compression alone is not enough to limit goku due to 2 things, ability to teleport + reaction speed. Reaction speed can be up for debate but gotenks completed multiple rounds arnd earth in mere few minutes + tht stamina too.
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Doesn't really change the fact that it works on evil people, Babidi was targeted for that very reason and he intentionally let himself get controlled. It wouldn't work on good people. This ability is irrelevant here anyway.And where does it ever says that his mind control isn't powerful ? Show us some scans.Frieza casually destroys large planets with a single blast. And before you scream where is large planets, it has been already stated that namek and planet vegeta are far bigger than earth. And through scaling it's not wrong to say that frieza can destroy a dwarf star with his full powered attack
as you said it doesn't matter because urek would get blitzed hundred times a second by goku who is easily mftl+++++. And a single punch from goku would turn him into a blood mistUI allows him to react without thinking, it doesn't give him foresight. He can't just know what is coming to him and it truly applies to hand to hand battles.
I thought no one would mention IT . We don't know the speed of the Compression, but we do know that Urek's attacks reach light speed. As you said these things are hard to measure. Yes, IT could allow him to escape from being sealed, but it wouldn't allow him to negate the primary effect of Compression ie size reduction and abilities nerf. It would also not allow him to prevent being potentially crushed. Urek is also able to use Spatial Distortion to teleport and stuff, it has even been stated that he could kill all organisms on a floor(which are at least continent-sized) simply with that.
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Doesn't really change the fact that it works on evil people, Babidi was targeted for that very reason and he intentionally let himself get controlled. It wouldn't work on good people. This ability is irrelevant here anyway.
Ah yes, I know that Goku would most probably get trapped by the compression. What I mean is that imo he would be able to escape from it through ki. This is ofc up to debate, Im also not up to date with ToG to correctly measure Urek's power.I didn't complete the Moro arc but I don't remember he or the Kaioshin being that strong? I am quite sure that they were all scrubs compared to our Saiyan duo. IIRC Moro only became a threat once he started to absorb energy.
My point was that UI would be useless against Urek's Compression because it's an AOE move. UI is really important in close ranged battles. He can't really dodge an omnidirectional move which can encompass a whole forest..
Yeah as demon said UI doesnt work like that, it increases the reaction speed of the user since they dont need to think their offensive or defensive moves, but if something cannot be dodged he will eat it, like we saw with Jiren and Moro.Let me get this straight. UI actually attacks before user even thinks. He can compress a whole forest.
But goku's body in UI very easily percepts the attack and move away to other planet and send a blast tht can destroy entire planet from there..Don't think urek could compress tht huge level.
Please read carefully, I didnt say that about Babidi's power.And where does it ever says that his mind control isn't powerful ? Show us some scans.Frieza casually destroys large planets with a single blast. And before you scream where is large planets, it has been already stated that namek and planet vegeta are far bigger than earth. And through scaling it's not wrong to say that frieza can destroy a dwarf star with his full powered attack
I know its useless to tell you this but... DBS characters are speed of light at best during combat.as you said it doesn't matter because urek would get blitzed hundred times a second by goku who is easily mftl+++++. And a single punch from goku would turn him into a blood mist
Lol man you are really something .Ah yes, I know that Goku would most probably get trapped by the compression. What I mean is that imo he would be able to escape from it through ki. This is ofc up to debate, Im also not up to date with ToG to correctly measure Urek's power.
Yeah as demon said UI doesnt work like that, it increases the reaction speed of the user since they dont need to think their offensive or defensive moves, but if something cannot be dodged he will eat it, like we saw with Jiren and Moro.
Also Instant transmission requires the user to think in order to be performed so not a thing you can pair with UI (unless Tori retcons for the millionth time but he didnt do that yet).
So yeah, reaction speed with UI is what gives him the edge over Urek, but the rest is quite up to debate.
Please read carefully, I didnt say that about Babidi's power.
Also no, Frieza wasnt capable of casually destroying planets until Super. In DB he made concentrated attacks to the core of the planets to make them collapse.
Is your scaling seriously based on size?
I know its useless to tell you this but... DBS characters are speed of light at best during combat.
Dyspo was stated to reach speed of light in his ultimate form in ToP and even with terrible technique he was untouchable to Golden Frieza, a guy that could at least react to Jiren's attacks.
So... yeah lets say Goku is speed of light with UI, but nothing beyond that. And I clarify, Im refering to combat speed. Travelling speed in DragonBall is the most inconsistent in all fiction so dont bring "feats" born from it.
Isn't this contradictory statement in itself. React without thinking and foresight in same sentence ?UI allows him to react without thinking, it doesn't give him foresight. He can't just know what is coming to him and it truly applies to hand to hand battles.
Sorry lambu, but i surely think whis statement abt UI being theoretically undefeatable included mafuba aka compression, time warp and other techs into consideration. Because if not, it is really stupid - the statement itself.Yeah as demon said UI doesnt work like that, it increases the reaction speed of the user since they dont need to think their offensive or defensive moves, but if something cannot be dodged he will eat it, like we saw with Jiren and Moro.
Also Instant transmission requires the user to think in order to be performed so not a thing you can pair with UI (unless Tori retcons for the millionth time but he didnt do that yet).
So yeah, reaction speed with UI is what gives him the edge over Urek, but the rest is quite up to debate.