Special Move X-Ball Discussion Thread

[Kaoz]

Figured we could use a thread dedicated to the x shots at once feats, given that they'll probably be in the focus in the near future.

Discuss anything related to them here, what they actually enable the player to do, whether the lack of such a feat can be overcome by other abilities, which levels the various characters are currently at, both from what we've seen and what you expect, and anything else that comes to mind.

Might make a chart with the levels we've seen so far later on and edit it into this post.


EDIT:

Spoiler: X at Once Levels

Tokugawa Kazuya: 10 (Start)
Oni Juujrou: 10 (Start)
Echizen Ryoma: 1 (Start) -> 5 (Mountain) -> 10 (Post Shuffle)
Tooyama Kintarou: 1 (Start) -> 5 (Mountain) -> 8 (Post Shuffle) -> 10 (G10)
Sanada Gen'ichirou: 1 (Start) -> 5 (Mountain)
Akutsu Jin: 1 (Start) -> 5 (Post Shuffle)
Tanishi Kei: 1 (Start) -> 4 (Post Shuffle)
Oshitari Kenya: 1 (Start) -> 4 (Post Shuffle)
Yukimura Seiichi: 2 (Start)

Tanishi and Kenya might be controversial entries here but I figured I'd still leave them in.

 

[-Ken-]

Yukimura really is at higher than 2. It's 2 half balls, which is wayyy harder to hit back.

Good idea for a thread, though.

 

[Kaoz]

Yukimura really is at higher than 2. It's 2 half balls, which is wayyy harder to hit back.

I'm not really doubting that he is, but we have no way to determine whether he's at 5, 7 or 10 (at least for the time being, maybe we can determine some sort of trend for other players and make guesses based on that).

 

[LetalHawk]

I'm not really doubting that he is, but we have no way to determine whether he's at 5, 7 or 10 (at least for the time being, maybe we can determine some sort of trend for other players and make guesses based on that).

When he saw Oni and Kintarou rallying with 8 balls, he wasn't impressed at all, but that could mean a fully healed Yuki could easily hit 10? Or that he wasn't impressed because he is confident he would beat both Kintarou and Oni

 

[Ninomiya]

I don't think Yukimura should be in this at all.

He hit hit two half balls far away from one another. Unlike all the other instances we have seen X-ball, Yukimura is the only one who had to sprint to cover the big distance between just two balls. Half balls.
I don't think two shots at full blast by an opponent in TnK that Yukimura was able to return really count to the 10ball that these guys are doing whilst not in TnK and none of them are that far from one another really equate to it.

He shouldn't be in this. Tanishi in theory can hit 4 at once. He should probably be here.
I don't remember how many Kenya can hit.

 

[Kaoz]

I don't think Yukimura should be in this at all.

It's true that his situation was rather different from the others but I imagine that that point could be the origin of the x-ball feats, so I figured I'd keep him on the list. If everybody else thinks otherwise though, I'll take him off.

I don't remember how many Kenya can hit.

Right after Tanishi returns 4, there's a panel with Kenya having 4 balls on his racket. Whether that means he can actually hit that many, I'm not sure about which is why it's marked as controversial. I would imagine everyone who played in the revolution should be able to hit four or more though since Tanishi didn't play.

 

[Ninomiya]

Right after Tanishi returns 4, there's a panel with Kenya having 4 balls on his racket. Whether that means he can actually hit that many, I'm not sure about which is why it's marked as controversial. I would imagine everyone who played in the revolution should be able to hit four or more though since Tanishi didn't play.

I don't think we should assume this at all.
Tanishi and Kenya went on that stupid mission with Ryoma so I think Konomi gave them some added improvement along with that.

I don't think Oishi can hit 4 at once lol.
I think they can all hit just 1 until stated otherwise.

 

[Kaoz]

Kaoz: like idk... someone like Atobe should be capable of returning say 5 balls stat wise (after the Irie match), but maybe you need to do something besides stats to actually create the additional balls... ikd
Kaoz: so if someone who has the stats were to return a x-ball, he'd return them all as a single ball again maybe?
Sai: maybe
Kaoz: this would kinda work with how Yukimura returned Samurai Drive... he "split" to hit both halfs at the same time but they basically came back together again... and I'm guessing Konomi got the idea of using x-balls from there in the first place
Sai: he did

Food for thought maybe.

 

[Hardy]

Sai words were so deep and inspiring.

 

[Brandnewkid]

Didn't Akutsu have 5 at the start?

 

[Fayte]

I don't think we should assume this at all.
Tanishi and Kenya went on that stupid mission with Ryoma so I think Konomi gave them some added improvement along with that.

That mission had nothing to do with Ryoma getting 5-ball, because Ryoma got it from the sportsman hunt. Kenya said the only thing that mission accomplished was better balance. This means their 4-ball status (and Tanishi's skinny status) was most likely obtained by practicing on the irregular court.

 

[Phantron]

Anything under 5 is not even worth mentioning. You don't see Ryoma practicing how to hit 2 balls first and the first relevent point is clearly 5. Unlike most techinques there isn't an 'equivalence' relationship, like you're never equivalent of X-ball by doing something else. The story was rather specific that you must be able to do 10-ball to beat Oni/Tokugawa. There's nothing equivalent of 10-ball besides 10-ball itself. The tiers are also absolute. Kintaro's 8-ball cannot return Oni's 10-ball until he surpassed his limit. I see the X-ball as mostly a tier mechanism to deal with annoying, otherwise unreturnable techniques. It's not unlike Yukimura initial ability to return any tech for no reason whatsoever but in a more quantifiable form.

 

[Kaoz]

Didn't Akutsu have 5 at the start?

He first showed it during the team shuffle, there's no reason to assume he could already do it at the beginning of the camp.

 

[Phantron]

I don't think you should put 'practice with X balls' the same as 'X-ball'. Kintaro and Ryoma are more or less supposed to be toe to toe with each other (they can hit 5 balls at the same time) and yet it took a 'my life flashed before my eye' kind of event for Kintaro to achieve 10-ball so I really doubt Ryoma is just supposed to be able to do 10-ball casually just because he can hit 10 balls at once in practice with Tokugawa. Oni, when he did the 10-ball, is clearly quite serious compared to the casual rally using 10 real balls between Tokugawa and Ryoma and I doubt this is because Ryoma has a better mastery of this previously elusive technique. Being able to hit X real balls is more like the minimum you need to do to even attempt X-ball but I just don't see how they can be the same.

 

[Kaoz]

Anything under 5 is not even worth mentioning. You don't see Ryoma practicing how to hit 2 balls first and the first relevent point is clearly 5.

For the upper tiers this may be true, but when we're getting to people in mid and below, I'd imagine 3 or 4 at once are very much relevant.

If we're taking Kenya's 4 balls at face value for example and assume that it is indeed a tiering mechanism, 4 or 5 balls are the threshold for 1st String level.

 

[Ninomiya]

Phantron that was a lot of nonsense.
Not having 5balls doesn't make you weak. or makes you not worth mentioning.
Akutsu even with 5 ball didn't look like he would really out play Atobe who doesn't have 5ball.

LOL why forget AK?
Niou and Yukimura would have beaten Akutsu at 5ball without question as well.

I can understand the 10ball thing clearly but you have to see past that 5ball hype. Otherwise Konomi wouldn't have pushed them all to do 10ball, and more importantly, Yukimura wouldn't have been the only MSer chosen while the 5ballers were there.

Secondly Kaoz you forgot Ibu and Kamio who could hit 2 balls at a time back at Districts.
remember Ryoma walks through them and handles the two balls at once?

---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------

That mission had nothing to do with Ryoma getting 5-ball, because Ryoma got it from the sportsman hunt. Kenya said the only thing that mission accomplished was better balance. This means their 4-ball status (and Tanishi's skinny status) was most likely obtained by practicing on the irregular court.

I agree with this, and I never said Ryoma got it from the mission. I never said Kenya nor Tanishi did either.
I said they went on the mission together. So I think Konomi gave them some added improvement along with that.
This means in addition to their mission, Konomi gave each of them added improvement.
Ryoma's added improvement being 5ball, and Tanishi and Kenya's being 4ball.

I mentioned this because Kenya and Tanishi are Low Tier characters unlike the other Xballers. And what they have in common was that mission.

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------

LOL Tanishi has 4ball and Kite hasn't been shown to have anything like that and there is absolutely no reason to assume he should.
Are we going to have comedians on here say Tanishi > Kite? Or Tanishi > Atobe, Fuji, Shiraishi?

10ball hype yes, but 5ball hype no. No need to hype up 5ball, it can't have been that good.

 

[Phantron]

The top tier characters pretty much had nothing to say regarding the techniques of the first 3 matches, even for people on their own team (Mach Serve was just a whatever move to the top tier guys) and yet Duke was impressed a middle schooler can easily return the 5-ball. In particular the Atobe & Niou game features probably the strongest set of moves we've seen so far in a game of POT. Atobe Kingdom, Tezuka Phantom, ZSS, Mach Serve, and Mental Pressure are all clearly top tier moves and yet nobody at the top tier bothered commenting on these moves. Yet Kintaro's 5-ball was immediately commented by Duke, who is surprised that a middle schooler can do this easily. He also saw a game earlier that features guy with ZSS, x-ray vision, synchronizing with yourself, and other ridiculous superpowers and he's still surprised that a middle schooler can easily return the 5-ball. This implies even seeing all these crazy techs he still doesn't expect a middle schooler to 'easily return 5-ball', which pretty much means there is no equivalence relationship from other techniques to the X-ball tiers. If Atobe Kingdom and ZSS doesn't qualify you as 'easily return 5-ball' then I can't really think of any other technique that'd put you up there.

Similar to the power players never play anyone besides themselves you obviously won't see a X-baller play someone who doesn't know X-ball (unless it's a lopsided instant win). There are obviously other guys who could learn X-ball but right now there are only 4 of them who passes the minimum qualifying criteria, which is able to hit 5 real balls at the same time.

 

[Fayte]

and yet Duke was impressed a middle schooler can easily return the 5-ball. In particular the Atobe & Niou game features probably the strongest set of moves we've seen so far in a game of POT. Atobe Kingdom, Tezuka Phantom, ZSS, Mach Serve, and Mental Pressure are all clearly top tier moves and yet nobody at the top tier bothered commenting on these moves. Yet Kintaro's 5-ball was immediately commented by Duke, who is surprised that a middle schooler can do this easily. He also saw a game earlier that features guy with ZSS, x-ray vision, synchronizing with yourself, and other ridiculous superpowers and he's still surprised that a middle schooler can easily return the 5-ball. This implies even seeing all these crazy techs he still doesn't expect a middle schooler to 'easily return 5-ball', which pretty much means there is no equivalence relationship from other techniques to the X-ball tiers.

Let me remind you of something. The high-schoolers were shocked at the middle-schoolers even BEING at the camp to begin with. So that tells you right off the bat that they do not have high expectations. I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The question is not "Why did the HSers only praise them for certain things and not everything?" The question is "Why did the HSers do nothing BUT praise them whenever they had "match commentary?" If you think Konomi is going to draw a reaction from the HSers every single time a MSer picks up a racquet, you don't understand the way this manga works. Konomi is lazy as it is, he aint drawing that stuff every chapter. The MSers have been praised more than you remember. Oni commented on how disciplined Sanada was, and noticed the potential of Momoshiro. Irie and Shuuji both acknowledged the competence of Atobe. Yukimura was chosen for a shuffle match. As far as I'm concerned, they have been impressed this whole series. 5-ball is not significant in light of this reality.

 

[Kaoz]

Secondly Kaoz you forgot Ibu and Kamio who could hit 2 balls at a time back at Districts.
remember Ryoma walks through them and handles the two balls at once?

Except that the two situations are completely different. Neither of them are hitting the two balls at exactly the same time there, let alone at a speed you'd see in a rally nowadays.

As I kinda said before, I think it's worth considering to somewhat split the ball techs into being able to rally with that many balls and being able to actually create them from a single ball. The former being stat dependent and the latter needing some added input, but more along the lines of techniques as we know them. For example, Irie might be unable to split the ball by himself (theoretically speaking of course, maybe he can), but he would still be able to return all the balls if Oni split them first.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Except that the two situations are completely different. Neither of them are hitting the two balls at exactly the same time there, let alone at a speed you'd see in a rally nowadays.

As I kinda said before, I think it's worth considering to somewhat split the ball techs into being able to rally with that many balls and being able to actually create them from a single ball. The former being stat dependent and the latter needing some added input, but more along the lines of techniques as we know them. For example, Irie might be unable to split the ball by himself (theoretically speaking of course, maybe he can), but he would still be able to return all the balls if Oni split them first.

Well technically the ball does not really clone when following the speed mulitplier theory. So when Oni hits a 10x speed ball to attempt to create 10 balls, Irie does not have that much power in his arm (apparently) to hit it back at 10x speed to create the clone illusion so the ball will be returned as one.

Essentially, splitting the ball and rallying the balls are the same thing since the returner needs to "split" the ball (hit the ball X-times fast) to sustain the clone illusion.