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Special Move X-Ball Discussion Thread

Phantron

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Well technically the ball does not really clone when following the speed mulitplier theory. So when Oni hits a 10x speed ball to attempt to create 10 balls, Irie does not have that much power in his arm (apparently) to hit it back at 10x speed to create the clone illusion so the ball will be returned as one.

Essentially, splitting the ball and rallying the balls are the same thing since the returner needs to "split" the ball (hit the ball X-times fast) to sustain the clone illusion.
The effort Tokugawa and Ryoma used to maintain rallying with 10 real balls is considerably below what it takes Oni to create 10 balls (using just one) based on their facial expressions, and Ryoma is consistently toe to toe with Kintaro who can only do 8-ball in a real match and there's no reason to believe Ryoma has suddenly surpassed Kintaro by such a wide margin where he can casually do stuff that's beyond Kintaro's limit.

If using X real balls is the same as splitting one ball to X balls, why even get X balls to practice in the first place? The 10-ball is clearly one of those 'watch out this tech can kill you' deal and it really wouldn't make sense to practice with that kind of power. Even in POT they don't usually practice with techs that can kill you. For example you don't see people practice with Hado 108s. It'd be reasonable to assume using X real balls is a 'safe' version of honing for X-ball techs without risking significant injury.
 

Fayte

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The effort Tokugawa and Ryoma used to maintain rallying with 10 real balls is considerably below what it takes Oni to create 10 balls (using just one) based on their facial expressions
This is probably the most subjective argument I've heard yet.
 

Phantron

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If you practice with a method that's not even POT-rule legal, there's only two possible reasons:

1. It's harder than real technique (similar to the wearing heavy weights) to improve your skill.
2. It's easier than the real technique because some techs are too dangerous to use in practice.

In the case of #1 then the 10-ball practice should've created effects that makes setting the net on fire look tame, except that never happened. Tokugawa and Ryoma rallied for hours with 10 balls, compared to Kintaro showing signs of getting tired and hitting his limit after a few rallies with Oni. Unless Tokugawa and especially Ryoma are supposed to be an order of magnitude better than Kintaro or Oni, #1 is simply impossible. There would be no point to use X real balls if it only duplicates the same effect because Tokugawa presumably can split the ball into 10 just fine. So it has to be weaker than the real thing.
 

Ninomiya

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Phantron, one key issue is that the ball wasn't on fire until it scraped across the cord and began to singe the net.
Remove the whole "net on fire" thing from your mind until we solve the Mystery of the burning net.

There isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest Tooyama set the net on fire on purpose and burned down the whole court. Or that he can set net's on fire at will like how he did.
Even for Kintaro who despite being amongst the biggest retards in the series, that would be beyond retarded to burn the net that you need for your own match on purpose.
Secondly, Oni probably would have hit them all back but he didn't expect the last ball to pick cause so much friction when pass across the cord of the net that it would pick up flames.
Lastly Ryoma was hitting 10 casually when Kintaro was just on 8 lol. Tokugawa wasn't impressed and we still haven't seen how Oni will react to Tooyama hitting 10 at once. Stop underrating other characters just for Tooyama.

Although you've raised a good point on how different practising with 10 real balls is to practising with 10 ?Illusion? balls.
 

Phantron

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Phantron, one key issue is that the ball wasn't on fire until it scraped across the cord and began to singe the net.
Remove the whole "net on fire" thing from your mind until we solve the Mystery of the burning net.

There isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest Tooyama set the net on fire on purpose and burned down the whole court. Or that he can set net's on fire at will like how he did.
Even for Kintaro who despite being amongst the biggest retards in the series, that would be beyond retarded to burn the net that you need for your own match on purpose.
Secondly, Oni probably would have hit them all back but he didn't expect the last ball to pick cause so much friction when pass across the cord of the net that it would pick up flames.
Lastly Ryoma was hitting 10 casually when Kintaro was just on 8 lol. Tokugawa wasn't impressed and we still haven't seen how Oni will react to Tooyama hitting 10 at once. Stop underrating other characters just for Tooyama.

Although you've raised a good point on how different practising with 10 real balls is to practising with 10 ?Illusion? balls.
Err, setting the net on fire is clearly just to give you an idea what kind of power you'd expect for a true 10-ball level rally. I mean none of the top tier players even look surprised at the outcome, and why should they be when Byodouin can crater a wall with a serve? But it pretty much rules out the case of practicing with 10 real balls > using 10-ball tech in terms of difficulty, or the practice rally between Tokugawa and Ryoma should at least end up with the court looking like it's been ravaged by some kind of natural disaster. You can't get away from this kind of equipment damage no matter how powerful the characters are. If you replaced Oni with Byodouin in the Kintaro match, let's say Byodouin is so powerful he can return the 'set net on fire' shot like it's nothing. But the net itself is still going to get set on fire when Kintaro did that move. There's literally no way you can do 10-ball level rally for extended time without accidentally destroying some equipment.

There's quite a bit of history of people not going all out in practice. Tezuka didn't even use Tezuka Zone in his practice matches against other Seigaku players. When you consider that playing tennis is now a death-defying event it does make a lot of sense you'd come up with 'safe' versions of techs that'd normally burn buildings down so you can actually practice.
 

Ninomiya

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Stop with the net on fire shot.
We don't know if Oni was necessarily "unable" to return it.
Byoudouin obviously would have.
chances are, the Top10 see nothing wrong with a net burning accidentally, whilst the rest of the camp were stunned.

I don't think 10ball absolutely means destroy equipment and I think that it's stupid to think that.
Don't think that to return 10ball by Oni the net must be set on fire. That's really dumb.

Byoudouin would have returned 10 cleanly and wouldn't have to accidentally hit a Cord ball.
That just confirms that Oni is probably still above Tooyama. That 10th ball he returned was a Cord Ball, it touched the cord.
It means it was inches away of hitting the net and becoming a fault.

Ryoma and Tokugawa don't use any kind of over whelming power in their play styles. Whilst Oni and Tooyama have beast levels of power incorporated in their tennis.
That is why there was destruction. Obviously Tokugawa isn't going to be destroying equipment and neither is Ryoma as neither of them have been portrayed as players with overwhelming power.

Your argument is a bit silly.
 

Hardy

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I don't know how relevant this is but...


Pre Nationals Fuji hit back X-Balls before it became mainstream :XD
 

Brandnewkid

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I don't know how relevant this is but...


Pre Nationals Fuji hit back X-Balls before it became mainstream :XD
Actually, Akutsu did it first.
 

Hardy

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Actually, Akutsu did it first.
3 balls? gotta see that.

Fudo guys practiced with 2 balls, but still, no one tried 3 balls before Fuji I think.
 

Brandnewkid

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3 balls? gotta see that.

Fudo guys practiced with 2 balls, but still, no one tried 3 balls before Fuji I think.
Thought he meant X-balls in general.
 

Ninomiya

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I don't know how relevant this is but...


Pre Nationals Fuji hit back X-Balls before it became mainstream :XD
Wasn't that Fuji using 4th Counter and not Base!Fuji, so basically he doesn't have X-ball since its all their Base!-- selves that can hit X-ball.

---------- Post added February 07, 2013 at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was January 15, 2013 at 04:57 PM ----------

Well... Ryoga can hit 10 at once...

Or rather... He can hit 11?

Akutsu another member of the 10ball club.
 

Kaoz

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I've been thinking about the multi-ball strikes again recently, specifically in the context of how Akutsu used them against Amadeus. I find it noteworthy that while hitting multiple balls at once quickly became a routine thing in the anime, the manga only really made a big deal out of it in the case of four of the middle schoolers: Ryoma, Kintarou, Sanada and Akutsu. Akutsu ultimately combined this with his natural flexibility to create a variant unique to him.

What about the other three? Can we expect Ryoma, Kintarou and Sanada to make use of this ability to hit multiple balls again while putting their own twist on it? If so, what might that look like? Just brainstorming a couple ideas below.

Ryoma
  1. Drive Version: First thing that came to mind for Ryoma was hitting each shot with a different one of his Drives: A, B, COOL, D, and Samurai. He can hit at least the first four from that sliding approach of his and they all travel in very different ways, so returning all five (six counting Samurai Drive's half balls) should be a challenge.
  2. Muga Version: Same idea as before, but copying other players' moves in the process. Seeing the basic Muga again would be surprising, but Ryoma's copied moves from others even without it, so it might not be necessary. Could run into problems in the sense that unlike the Drives, other moves can have vastly different requirements.
  3. High Tension Version: One of Ryoma's most notable abilities throughout Kanto was that he would play better and better the longer the match went on for and continue to increase his pace throughout. So a basic idea for him in the context of multi-ball strokes might be to just keep adding more and more balls. This is definitely the most basic version of the three I've presented here, but I also think I like it the best because Akutsu's was fundamentally simple as well. Also, we might have gotten a glimpse of this against Ryoga.
Kintarou
  1. I don't have any real ideas for him. The best I can think of right now is to combine it with that cloning he can do in some way, but not sure where to go from there.
Sanada
  1. FuuRinKaInZanRai Version: As the name probably implies, this idea involves Sanada using each part of FuuRinKaInZanRai (well, minus In because it's not a shot in any way) on one of the balls. One thing I like about this is that Sanada's the only one we've never seen upgrade from hitting five at once, and five would be sufficient for this.
  2. Black Dragon Version: Pretty straight-forward and maybe an alternative to the triple clutch. Sanada would hit a regular 5-Ball Strike and then bend all five shots with the black aura.
Do you have other ideas? Or do you think hitting multiple balls will be largely irrelevant for these guys moving forward?
 

LetalHawk

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I've been thinking about the multi-ball strikes again recently, specifically in the context of how Akutsu used them against Amadeus. I find it noteworthy that while hitting multiple balls at once quickly became a routine thing in the anime, the manga only really made a big deal out of it in the case of four of the middle schoolers: Ryoma, Kintarou, Sanada and Akutsu. Akutsu ultimately combined this with his natural flexibility to create a variant unique to him.

What about the other three? Can we expect Ryoma, Kintarou and Sanada to make use of this ability to hit multiple balls again while putting their own twist on it? If so, what might that look like? Just brainstorming a couple ideas below.

Ryoma
  1. Drive Version: First thing that came to mind for Ryoma was hitting each shot with a different one of his Drives: A, B, COOL, D, and Samurai. He can hit at least the first four from that sliding approach of his and they all travel in very different ways, so returning all five (six counting Samurai Drive's half balls) should be a challenge.
  2. Muga Version: Same idea as before, but copying other players' moves in the process. Seeing the basic Muga again would be surprising, but Ryoma's copied moves from others even without it, so it might not be necessary. Could run into problems in the sense that unlike the Drives, other moves can have vastly different requirements.
  3. High Tension Version: One of Ryoma's most notable abilities throughout Kanto was that he would play better and better the longer the match went on for and continue to increase his pace throughout. So a basic idea for him in the context of multi-ball strokes might be to just keep adding more and more balls. This is definitely the most basic version of the three I've presented here, but I also think I like it the best because Akutsu's was fundamentally simple as well. Also, we might have gotten a glimpse of this against Ryoga.
Kintarou
  1. I don't have any real ideas for him. The best I can think of right now is to combine it with that cloning he can do in some way, but not sure where to go from there.
Sanada
  1. FuuRinKaInZanRai Version: As the name probably implies, this idea involves Sanada using each part of FuuRinKaInZanRai (well, minus In because it's not a shot in any way) on one of the balls. One thing I like about this is that Sanada's the only one we've never seen upgrade from hitting five at once, and five would be sufficient for this.
  2. Black Dragon Version: Pretty straight-forward and maybe an alternative to the triple clutch. Sanada would hit a regular 5-Ball Strike and then bend all five shots with the black aura.
Do you have other ideas? Or do you think hitting multiple balls will be largely irrelevant for these guys moving forward?
While it's true that we saw it again in Akutsu's recent match, it's been a while since it was an "important thing" (i.e Oni vs Kintarou, Toku vs Byodouin or Ryoma vs Ryoga). But since we entered into the international stage, it has become less relevant to hit multiple balls at once; and well, it hasn't been mentioned yet by any foreign player since the G10 arc. I'm inclining more to the point that it'll become irrelevant as they move forward (and they'll keep improving by leveling up their base stats plus learning new moves).

However, if we get back again to the multi-ball strikes again, and they make another appearance in future matches, I think they won't be the usual ones, but depending on the player, they'll have unique properties. Aside from the ones you mentioned, I thought of more ways they could use the multi-ball strikes.

Ryoma:

1. Multi-Twist Serve:
How amazing would it be if we got our loved Twist Serve back, but in a more unique way? Ryoma using different twists on five balls should be a challenge, or even harder if he gets to hit five different serves, one with a twist spin plus four different spins.

2. Multi-Glowing Shots: Like he used the glowing part of destruction to hit a Drive B, what if he managed to hit 10 glowing balls? I feel that this is too much for him at his current level, but him hitting five glowing balls isn't too farfetched at all. That's something we still have yet to see, maybe because you have to focus on hitting the ball with the SSS, and doing that in a multi-ball strike should demand quite a considerable amount of focus.

3. Multi TnK: Last but not least, hitting ten balls while in TnK should be quite a challenge, and really hard to return if the other player doesn't have enough reflexes to keep up with them.

Kintarou: Honestly, I'm at a loss on what kind of strategy he could get from the multi-ball strikes. Maybe mixing them with Daisharin? Since at his last match vs. Dorgias he didn't use them, I doubt we'll ever see him again using the multi-ball strikes unless they force him to do so.

Sanada:

1. Muga: Using Muga on one of the balls while hitting the other five or hitting five different special techniques. However, I feel the stamina consumption would be too high in this case.

Basically the same you said, either hitting five balls at once while involving any part of FuuRinKaInZanRai or bending all of the shots with the Black Aura. But, because he never used them again since the beginnings of the series at the mountain training, and we didn't see him using it nor in the G10 arc or vs. Australia, I don't know if we will ever see him again using them.
 

Kaoz

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But since we entered into the international stage, it has become less relevant to hit multiple balls at once; and well, it hasn't been mentioned yet by any foreign player since the G10 arc. I'm inclining more to the point that it'll become irrelevant as they move forward (and they'll keep improving by leveling up their base stats plus learning new moves).
[...]
But, because he never used them again since the beginnings of the series at the mountain training, and we didn't see him using it nor in the G10 arc or vs. Australia, I don't know if we will ever see him again using them.
I think one point to note in Sanada's case is that we haven't seen him play singles since he mastered hitting 5 at once. For whatever reason, multi-ball moves have only been used in singles so far, including by Akutsu who was happy to bring them out against both Ryoga and Amadeus, so it's still possible that something about doubles prevents players from hitting them.

Also, it's come up pretty consistently in Ryoma's case. He hit multiple balls in the practice with Tokugawa, against Ryoga and against Rocky. We didn't see him use it against Dodo, but his objective there was to hit the ball over Dodo rather than just past him, and against Denmark, but the only shot we actually saw from Ryoma there was a finishing smash. I don't think either of those instances suggests him dropping multi-ball strikes altogether.

Kintarou: Honestly, I'm at a loss on what kind of strategy he could get from the multi-ball strikes. Maybe mixing them with Daisharin? Since at his last match vs. Dorgias he didn't use them, I doubt we'll ever see him again using the multi-ball strikes unless they force him to do so.
This is a fair observation. I guess it's noteworthy that Kintarou didn't get any real upgrade against Dorgias in general and the match was focused more on Dorgias overall, so not wanting to take away from that might've been a reason. It's also possible that Kintarou only got it because Ryoma did though.

2. Multi-Glowing Shots: Like he used the glowing part of destruction to hit a Drive B, what if he managed to hit 10 glowing balls? I feel that this is too much for him at his current level, but him hitting five glowing balls isn't too farfetched at all. That's something we still have yet to see, maybe because you have to focus on hitting the ball with the SSS, and doing that in a multi-ball strike should demand quite a considerable amount of focus.
I wonder if that's possible in general. The glowing shot seems to concentrate as much power as possible into a single point, so I'm uncertain how it'd work in cases where you strike the ball from various different angles at once.
 

Fuji Shusuke

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An interesting feat for Sanada would be an X-Shot combined with the Black Dragon but instead of hitting the X-Shot normally then having them change direction, the shot is hit so that it looks like it's a single ball, then the ball suddenly splits into the X-shot and the cloned balls diverge away from the original shot trajectory.
 

Kaoz

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So essentially like Byoudouin's Pirates of America? Or would this split before the bounce?
 

Fuji Shusuke

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Ideally it would be nice if Sanada could get it to change direction before the bounce but for the sake of the rules of the game probably sometime after the bounce before the opponent goes to hit the ball instead of what Pirates of the Americas does when it splits the instant it hits the ground.
 
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