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Discussion Mser Tier list

-Ken-

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Regarding Niou result in latest chapter

Welps, I guess wrong. Niou got 6-0. It's apparently without illusion though which doesn't really tell us much.
 

mathematicianrcg

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What is your current ranking of Top Japan Msers RIGHT NOW?

I have something like:

1. Yukimura
2. Ryoma
3. Kintarou
4. Sanada
5. Atobe
6. Fuji
7. Shiraishi

Explanation:

Yukimura Version of (VS Tezuka) imo is stronger than Ryoma Version of (almost lost VS Ludovic )

Ryoma and Kintarou will surely surpass Yukimura in the Finals though.

Sanada VS Atobe is close. But I really like Sanada's Triple Clutch. But you can flip them.

I think Fuji has Surpassed Shiraishi.

Shiraishi was Strong in POT. But seems like he only have a strong Floor, but low ceiling. Literally, his only upgrade is make his Bible into Star Bible. While Fuji improved very much. Now he added Attack Moves to his Defensive Counters.

PS: Dont Include Tezuka and Akutsu. They are not in the japan team right now
 
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-Ken-

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What is your current ranking of Top Japan Msers RIGHT NOW?

I have something like:

1. Yukimura
2. Ryoma
3. Kintarou
4. Sanada
5. Atobe
6. Fuji
7. Shiraishi

Explanation:

Yukimura Version of (VS Tezuka) imo is stronger than Ryoma Version of (almost lost VS Ludovic )

I wouldn't put Yukimura above Echizen for Echizen being equal to Lodovic. For me, that just means Ludovic is extremely strong. Yukimura can give a good match to PoP Tezuka, sure. But since then Echizen obtain multiple upgrade as well. And remember that Yukimura actually lost to Echizen without winning a single points when Echizen go easy on him and even slow the ball down.
 

Hardy

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Correct me if I'm wrong but Yukimura didn't hit the SS SPOT yet, right? I don't doubt he can eventually do it (as returning everything is his thing) but I don't think Ryoma's Hope can be returned without it.

In a single set I give it to Echizen, in 3 sets it depends on Yukimura getting this development and Ryoma getting none... Which isn't really fair, and it might be 50/50 either way.

In a single set I'd rank Kirihara pretty highly too, btw, to the point that I think he's ready to beat Sanada and maybe Kin.

Fuji is a total wildcard, we'll have to wait and see him play. I don't take his comment against Kirihara too seriously, but they are probably around the same level.

Maybe I make a list in the weekend.
 
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Adamska

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Ryoma's got TNK and HOPE (for a guy like Ludwig takes five game to handle it) for top Mser's would be less than that.
As mentioned before, comparing Osvald to Ludwig, he is better than him overall. So you figure how long it takes for Top Msers to counter HOPE!
Then it comes TNK, since the weakest link (Akaya) manage to fight back vs such OP, well so for ex: Fuji's Natural ability along with his various techs can figure how to counter both HOPE and TNK (he got the tools) Also that goes for Atobe and Sanada and Shiraishi (these are high I.Q Mser's)
Yukimura already done it vs Tezuka! and Monster not only can return hope but he can perform Destruction!
So in case of strongest:
Tezuka (we've seen enough of him)
Yukimura (we've seen everything of him)
Monster (he's potential is above all of them but he needs to take it seriously)
Sanada (ending with half triple clutch in such short time, amazing)
Prince (same as Kintaroo)
Kintaroo (same as Ryoma)

Atobe (wait until final, I will change his place)
Shiraishi/Fuji (one of them responsible for rookie of the west and the other one for rookie of the east)
Akaya (Tohno, Tane, Shiraishi, Big 3, Ryoma, Fuji and with grace of angle and devil he became so much better) nid to mention his 13th style of Tohno was incomplete!
 

Hardy

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What tools does Fuji have to counter Hope? When did Yukimura return a Glowing shot of any sort? Legit asking here I do not remember.

If Akutsu's match against Amadeus wasn't a fluke he is probably the the strongest JP mser, now that you bring him up.
 

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Also, Ryoma beat Ludovic without using TnK or other strong moves like his glowing Drive B. He just used Hope + his Samurai Kijin and figured a way to counter the return of the SSS doubled. We didn’t see his entire arsenal as he didn’t need more than that.

Ryoma is, and will remain the top Mser in Japan.
 

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What tools does Fuji have to counter Hope? When did Yukimura return a Glowing shot of any sort? Legit asking here I do not remember.

If Akutsu's match against Amadeus wasn't a fluke he is probably the the strongest JP mser, now that you bring him up.
Take a look at Fuji's accomplishment so far, which started after his unofficial match Vs Tezuka! new tech and style + finding his natural ability! (I know a guy with such ability causes trouble for some Msers and Hsers)
I think you can say one of the biggest changing of him is: he drops his doubt of tennis!
Now Monster: As coach mention it the difference of 8th between him and Boss is experience of tennis and knowledge/awareness of 8th!
Actusu needs to mastering it! is more like Sanada when he accidentally uses his double clutch Vs Tane!
It's all based on their last matches!
...
About Yukimura: you think he can't counter HOPE? I mean Ludwig did it eventually right?(at that time he looks doesnt have any clue waht is SSS) we don't need to see everything. I think Konomi-San sometimes answer some questions undirectly (like always) have some imagination :))
...
As I recall, dear Elmir stopped using POP then unlock Howling, right?
So, that tells me you can't have both at the same time. so Kijin or TNK? of course Kijin! both of them at the same time? can you use water and oil together?
even Tezuka stopped using it all the time, along with Ultimate Zone.
A quote from Volk: you don't need to use TNK every single time!
I think Prince didn't use his TNK at that time only for the sake of Kijin!
I think there is a chance that Ryoma vs Fuji leaves some new flames for both party!
 

-Ken-

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Ryoma's got TNK and HOPE (for a guy like Ludwig takes five game to handle it) for top Mser's would be less than that.
As mentioned before, comparing Osvald to Ludwig, he is better than him overall. So you figure how long it takes for Top Msers to counter HOPE!
We already have cases like Tezuka play in S3 while Fuji is playing in S2 in the original series. Even in NPoT, we have cases where the confirmed by Konomi himself # 1 double pair plays in Doubles 2 of Germany match instead of Doubles 1. Then we have Zeus playing S3 (which I doubt anyone on greek team is better than him) and Oni/QP play S3 (I still don't think Tezuka/Yukimura surpass them yet, but they might have).

Why is it that you say Osvald is better than Ludwig?
 

Adamska

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We already have cases like Tezuka play in S3 while Fuji is playing in S2 in the original series. Even in NPoT, we have cases where the confirmed by Konomi himself # 1 double pair plays in Doubles 2 of Germany match instead of Doubles 1. Then we have Zeus playing S3 (which I doubt anyone on greek team is better than him) and Oni/QP play S3 (I still don't think Tezuka/Yukimura surpass them yet, but they might have).

Why is it that you say Osvald is better than Ludwig?
I'm not talking about certainty! yet their matches shows that Osvald looks better than him.
however there was paradox while Osval drop his match with unfinished tech in the other hand Ludwing ended up with some accomplishment.
 

-Ken-

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I'm not talking about certainty! yet their matches shows that Osvald looks better than him.
however there was paradox while Osval drop his match with unfinished tech in the other hand Ludwing ended up with some accomplishment.
Being able to dominated upgraded Echizen 6-0 who is capable of 6-0 National! Yukimura that was able to completely dominated Sanada in the beginning of NPoT is a much more impressive feats than being even with Sanada even if Sanada is upgraded for me personally.

Echizen was already using movable Hyakuren, which is able to get points against Yukimura. The only Sanada move that can do that is black aura.
 

Hardy

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Take a look at Fuji's accomplishment so far, which started after his unofficial match Vs Tezuka! new tech and style + finding his natural ability! (I know a guy with such ability causes trouble for some Msers and Hsers)
I think you can say one of the biggest changing of him is: he drops his doubt of tennis!
Now Monster: As coach mention it the difference of 8th between him and Boss is experience of tennis and knowledge/awareness of 8th!
Actusu needs to mastering it! is more like Sanada when he accidentally uses his double clutch Vs Tane!
It's all based on their last matches!
...
About Yukimura: you think he can't counter HOPE? I mean Ludwig did it eventually right?(at that time he looks doesnt have any clue waht is SSS) we don't need to see everything. I think Konomi-San sometimes answer some questions undirectly (like always) have some imagination :))
...
As I recall, dear Elmir stopped using POP then unlock Howling, right?
So, that tells me you can't have both at the same time. so Kijin or TNK? of course Kijin! both of them at the same time? can you use water and oil together?
even Tezuka stopped using it all the time, along with Ultimate Zone.
A quote from Volk: you don't need to use TNK every single time!
I think Prince didn't use his TNK at that time only for the sake of Kijin!
I think there is a chance that Ryoma vs Fuji leaves some new flames for both party!
Fuji barely has any relevant feats... His best one is probably returning Tachyon. Granted, I imagine this will change soon.

I've grown careful about thinking "this player needs to master it" for years now. If it's not stated I tend to give the benefit of the doubt in favour of the player.

Ludovic lost a set 0-6 trying to learn the SS Spot to counter Hope. If Hope breaks Yukimura then it's an uphill battle for him, that's why I specified for a single set. His anti Rai grip might work but, contrary to Rai, Hope packs quite a punch so I'm really skeptical about it.

Siegfried was in Synchro + Howling and I believe we never learnt specifically what skill of his enabled the howling, I remember Kaoz theorised it was TnK.

I think you cannot do Kijin and TnK at once. But Ryoma could had very well used TnK in the first sets and didn't. I'm pretty sure Tezuka absorbed the TnK aura into himself so he's a bit of an exception.

That said Ludovic improved throughout the match himself so yeah it's not really relevant.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Why is it that you say Osvald is better than Ludwig?
Pretty sure Handsome mentions Osval defeated each of the other French reps with his techniques (not counting Camus, I assume).

That said Ludovic unlocked his Knight Kijin vs Ryoma.
 

-Ken-

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Pretty sure Handsome mentions Osval defeated each of the other French reps with his techniques (not counting Camus, I assume).
Where was it state that? I must have miss it.
 

Hardy

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Where was it state that? I must have miss it.
Nah, it was an early mistranslation of 264. Went back and checked, mb.
 

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I have some ideas why Royma didn't use TNK vs Ludwig. might be the same reason where Boss lower his mental in order to reach greater OP
I think his current mentality was enough to counter "Time Loop" and only for that level!
One Major Fact:
Japan's system is based one thing: Gambling!
Boss vs Volk!
Ryoma vs Ludwig!
and more important: Japan line up vs France, Germany and now, (another gambling) so you get it.
...
Ryoma's Hyakuren wasnt big deal cuz Tezuka already has it and he couldn't deal with Sanada's move.
Prince was lucky cuz he unlocks TNK (something never seen before by any Msers) and using it against the one who has injury but more than that, the one who never loses a game! remember what Mifune said to Boss after his match vs Oni, something similar which happend to child of god.
....
As I mention it before, Fuji vs Ryoma and Irie vs Atobe can help us to have better perspective of players level. wait till then.
 
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-Ken-

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Ryoma's Hyakuren wasnt big deal cuz Tezuka already has it and he couldn't deal with Sanada's move.
I disagree. Ryoma Hyakuren is different than Tezuka because it's movable and ALL of the aura is focus on one certain point. There is a tangible result because we know for example Ryoma move faster when all of it is focus on his feet. And this is shown with ACTUAL results in actual usage and feats, as Ryoma was able to score against Yukimura with it whereas Rai is able to do absolutely shit and Sanada is completely helpless outside of black aura.

This is not even to mention Ryoma can hit Hope and super sweet spot which is likely to be able to return Rai anyways.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

As I mention it before, Fuji vs Ryoma and Irie vs Atobe can help us to have better perspective of players level. wait till then.
It depends on the view of the reader though.

If Fuji did well against Ryoma, people can either assume
1. Fuji is as strong as the strongest top tier because Ryoma is amongst them
or
2. Ryoma is actually ain't that strong because Fuji ain't that strong.

It won't really help in determining their actual level.

Irie actual level isn't ever known, but we know he's stronger than #5 of 1st stringer due to his match with Kaji now.
 

Adamska

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I disagree. Ryoma Hyakuren is different than Tezuka because it's movable and ALL of the aura is focus on one certain point. There is a tangible result because we know for example Ryoma move faster when all of it is focus on his feet. And this is shown with ACTUAL results in actual usage and feats, as Ryoma was able to score against Yukimura with it whereas Rai is able to do absolutely shit and Sanada is completely helpless outside of black aura.

This is not even to mention Ryoma can hit Hope and super sweet spot which is likely to be able to return Rai anyways.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



It depends on the view of the reader though.

If Fuji did well against Ryoma, people can either assume
1. Fuji is as strong as the strongest top tier because Ryoma is amongst them
or
2. Ryoma is actually ain't that strong because Fuji ain't that strong.

It won't really help in determining their actual level.

Irie actual level isn't ever known, but we know he's stronger than #5 of 1st stringer due to his match with Kaji now.
Agree to disagree:)) either way, the past is past.
For Ryoma vs Fuji, Konomi-San knows how to shape that match, and the conclusion would be different than those you mentioned. It could/must be!
And for Irie, we have many discussion about how good is Irie or how close top Mser's to G5!
But nid to mention that I don't think being close to G5 meaning that top Msers can deal with #6-10, I found them so talented, but since we knew too much more details about Msers, well it's natural to think that they are easy bucket, I disagree.
So, Ohmigari with Kintaroo vs Y/Y could be helpful, in some ways:)
 

-Ken-

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Eh, would be nice if you can show evidence in manga that suggest otherwise like how I backed mine instead of just agreeing to disagree.
 

Hardy

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To be fair Konomi has kind of ditched base Muga and the first two doors. Not sure if it's because it's convenient for him or if they are outclassed by the world stage.

Pretty sure Tezuka's Hyakuren was also focused on his arm, but he couldn't move it like Ryoma did (switching both arms and legs).

Super sweet spot can hit back Rai indeed, it's how Tanegashima countered it.

I read Ryoma vs Ludovic as Echizen trying to beat the latter in his own game/s (he's done this several times in the story). Then Ludovic unlocks his Knight Kijin and Ryoma has to go all in with his own. Without this development Ryoma maybe stomps if he's completely serious (at the very least, he doesn't drop a set so quickly).

Kaji is probably >= Ohmagari, if the latter isn't hiding anything. The gap between them and the very top seems pretty big, though, and Irie smashed him.

I'm overall a bit lost on what's the disagreement here though lol.
 
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