Semifinal Jellal Fernandes vs Laxus Dreyar

[Jko]

I already told you that what I said in my last post was my final word on this debate. Why are you asking me all these questions on said topic??

Because you claimed that the SSK arc indeed happened yet there are so many plot holes that haven't been cleared up. But I didn't even see the part where it was your final post.

 

[Hermit]

P.S. could you use the spoiler tags next time? It's hard to get through all this with pictures taking up most the space.

Sorry about that, I realized they were a lot right now lol
But glad this was resolved peacefully^^

 

[Jean Grey]

I like this discussions when they are peaceful and when we have 50/50 arguments on who can win. I won't even comment on Natsu battles. I will just vote there.

 

[Hermit]

I like this discussions when they are peaceful and when we have 50/50 arguments on who can win. I won't even comment on Natsu battles. I will just vote there.

Oh trust me, no matter who wins between Jellal and Laxus, if Natsu makes it to the finals I have an entire wall of text waiting to show why he shouldn't even win...
The finals need to come soon damn it

 

[Jean Grey]

Oh trust me, no matter who wins between Jellal and Laxus, if Natsu makes it to the finals I have an entire wall of text waiting to show why he shouldn't even win...
The finals need to come soon damn it

I agree. both Jellal and Laxus should win in the finals against Natsu. Natsu should have lost against God Serena. eager to see the finals. hoping for Laxus vs Natsu or Jellal vs Natsu.

looking forward to your wall of text

 

[Kiki]

Isn't discussing about something healthily enjoyable? ^ ^

Yea this battle is so underrated. We need to enliven it. Unlike the neighboring battle which has 19 pages and 283 replies, this thread only has 18 pages and 264 replies in it. Haha

Speaking of which, I still haven't decided which difficulty Laxus has in this battle. I'd say very extreme diff. Frankly speaking, this match is very hard to decide. Both were the final boss in their own arc. Jellal was the final boss in Tower of Heaven arc, Laxus was the final boss in Battle of Fairy Tail arc. Both have offensive attacks, and they are seen on par with each other. However, Laxus owns great durability and stamina, better than Jellal, which are essential for sustainability in a vs battle.

 

[~Charging Lightning~]

Isn't discussing about something healthily enjoyable? ^ ^

Yea this battle is so underrated. We need to enliven it. Unlike the neighboring battle which has 19 pages and 283 replies, this thread only has 18 pages and 264 replies in it. Haha

Speaking of which, I still haven't decided which difficulty Laxus has in this battle. I'd say very extreme diff. Frankly speaking, this match is very hard to decide. Both were the final boss in their own arc. Jellal was the final boss in Tower of Heaven arc, Laxus was the final boss in Battle of Fairy Tail arc. Both have offensive attacks, and they are seen on par with each other. However, Laxus owns great durability and stamina, better than Jellal, which are essential for sustainability in a vs battle.

The last thing you want to do is enliven a Laxus vs Jellal debate. They can get as bad as Mira vs Erza debates. It's a miracle that this thread has been so tame.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Yeah, but Laxus was on solid ground whereas Jellal was knocked underwater. The scenarios were different. So we're just going by the fact that both were unable to fight after taking the hits.

Being on land or water doesn't change the fact he was knocked out on contact while you're wrong again because Laxus gets back up and hit Hades shortly after.

Okay, fair enough.

Yeah.....

Spoiler

My point still stands. There was no stomping from Laxus.

Yes Laxus was stomping them, he literally no sold their attacks and this was before he got serious.

Now you're resorting to speculation. We can't infer what would happen if Laxus didn't use Fairy Law because he did. Also, how do you know for certain that Natsu and Gajeel would have lost even if he didn't use Fairy Law? You act like Fairy Law was the factor for why Laxus lost the battle.

No, I'm not, if Laxus didn't use Fairy Law he wouldn't of wasted magic, hence he dropped in power, if Laxus used Hlabred of Raging Bolt he would of killed/knocked BOTH of them, Freed himself says Natsu couldn't take a Halbred and Gajeel is done after he takes the Halbred for Natsu. And yes Fairy Law is the reason he lost.

Makarov casted it perfectly fine without much problems and just defeated Aria afterwards.

Laxus botched it and wasted MP, nor did Makarov expend as much MP as Laxus.

Spoiler

I guess Makarov is just stronger than Laxus and has higher MP overall.

Makarov back THEN probably did, which is hardly the point because even then he never wasted as much power as Laxus.

I'm not saying Orga is fodder but he isn't as strong as you probably think. Sting and Rogue, individually, are arguably stronger than him. If you don't think Orga was a glass cannon, then why are you against the idea that one-shotting Orga was a gag? That's some major contradiction.

It was flat out said in the manga cover page Orga was the strongest in the guild during Minvera's absence, stop it. Nor does Orga NOT being a glass canon make it a gag, you keep reaching, all that means was JURA WAS THAT MUCH stronger than him.

If Laxus was underwater, he would have suffered the same fate as Jellal. There is no denying that. Jellal was "knocked out" because of the water. He actually had less damage taken than Hades. The moment Kagura was able to get the water out of his lungs and give him oxygen, just look at his condition.

Basless. Jellal was knocked out because of the blow, he was knocked out underwater thus he started to drown.

Spoiler

As you can see, no damage taken. On the contrary, look at Laxus.

Spoiler

You don't need scratches on you do be knocked out, at all

It supposed to prove that when people makes themselves vulnerable to certain attacks, the damage done is different. With time, one can react and prepare for an incoming attack by bracing themselves. Clearly, Jellal didn't get that opportunity as well as many others that I've noted.

Jellal had plenty time to brace himself, he saw Ninhart charging up the blast and even had time to shout Kagura's name out.

No, but using a strategy to outmaneuver your opponent is a prime example of high combat intelligence.

Expect no strategy was used.

Wahl cannot cancel any type of magic. He only has the specific ability, Magic Barrier Particles Nullification Magic.

Never said that was only type of magic he could cancel.

You know that Erza actually excels in intelligence, right? She is one of the few who can figure out her own opponent's weakness. So Jellal performing the same feat is a increases his intellect.

She doesn't even have good regular inellect, while Jellal already knew Midnight's weaknesses beforehand so no, it doesn't increase his intellect.

By the way, fusing with the etherion has nothing to do with the tower itself and the R-system

.

It does, you think Jellal wouldn't know how the tower would function after being hit with Etherion?

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying him crushing his eyes is an example of intelligence. Instead, him seeing through the illusion and being able to recognize that Zero is not real is a feat for intelligence. That ability is crucial in battle.

Why would that be intellect, Zero literally kills Jellal in the illusion, Jellal simply knowing he's not dead it's an illusion, or do you think Jellal thinks Midnight would just sit back and do anything.

Exactly, my point is that Jellal doesn't jump the gun and rush into fights like Laxus does.

Doesn't jump the gun? How stupid is that, he done research on Zeref because he's spend all this time looking for him, he's had the time. Tyring to twist words to make Laxus look bad again.

Well, Erza was with Jellal and Kagura when Simon first appeared and she realize it. So there is no reason to believe that the others saw through it either. Besides, Juvia thought Keyes was actually alive when she said, "How is it possible... the dead... are...", while Meredy was surprised to see Zancrow when she said, "Zancrow?". Wendy and Laxus had similar reactions.

There's no reason to believe the OTHER DIDN'T SEE THROUGH IT. You're baselessly saying they didn't know. Juvia was shocked at first same with Merdy, while Jellal also had a shocked expression. Heck Jellal himself flat out says "You're.....Alive?!" when he first sees Simon. Stop it.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Being on land or water doesn't change the fact he was knocked out on contact while you're wrong again because Laxus gets back up and hit Hades shortly after.

That's my point. He wasn't knocked out on contact. The energy blast hit his back. How would that knock you out? If anything, it would cause you to lose your breath and drown. We saw no damage on his body whatsoever. Furthermore, he didn't shown signs of losing consciousness, injuries, or confusion after being "revived" by Kagura. He simply drowned. You'll need more proof to support your claim on this.

Exactly, Laxus gets back up because he was on land. If he was in the water, there would be no chance for him to rest and stand up again. He would be sinking until who knows when.

Yes Laxus was stomping them, he literally no sold their attacks and this was before he got serious.

He was literally having trouble against Natsu + Laxus. By definition, no stomping was shown.

No, I'm not, if Laxus didn't use Fairy Law he wouldn't of wasted magic, hence he dropped in power, if Laxus used Hlabred of Raging Bolt he would of killed/knocked BOTH of them, Freed himself says Natsu couldn't take a Halbred and Gajeel is done after he takes the Halbred for Natsu. And yes Fairy Law is the reason he lost.

This is what I'm talking about. It's speculation to say Laxus would use Thunder Dragon Heavenward and kill both of them. I can say Gajeel would've used all his strength to hold Laxus down while Natsu uses Fire Dragon Fist: Crimson Exploding Flame Blade and defeat him just the same. If the reason for Laxus' loss was because he used one attack by mistake, I'd be deeply disappointed.

Laxus botched it and wasted MP, nor did Makarov expend as much MP as Laxus.

Makarov used the same amount of MP to cast Fairy Law compared to Laxus. And he defeated an Element 4 with ease. Therefore, since he won his fight, I don't see how Laxus being unable to defeat Natsu + Gajeel is an excuse.

Makarov back THEN probably did, which is hardly the point because even then he never wasted as much power as Laxus.

Aria was already stronger than Natsu, so one-shotting him afterwards is a good feat even after using Fairy Law. I still don't see your point.

It was flat out said in the manga cover page Orga was the strongest in the guild during Minvera's absence, stop it. Nor does Orga NOT being a glass canon make it a gag, you keep reaching, all that means was JURA WAS THAT MUCH stronger than him.

You'll need to refresh my mind because I don't even remember the panel you're referencing. If you are one-shotted by a mere chop to the head without any magic infused in it, that must mean you are a glass cannon. If Orga is the strongest of Sabertooth according to your words, that must mean he is quite strong and can be compared to Natsu, Gray, or Erza. None of them would get one-shotted by Jura like that. So yes, it was a gag unless you think Orga is fodder.

I have no doubts that Orga could get one-shotted by Jura provided that Jura uses his strongest attack. He isn't some god like you're thinking.

Basless. Jellal was knocked out because of the blow, he was knocked out underwater thus he started to drown.

Baseless? Says the one who the burden of proof is on. I gave quite a reasonable explanation. I don't see any from you besides he was knocked out.

You don't need scratches on you do be knocked out, at all

Exactly, you don't. But you need signs or some sort of indication of it.

Jellal had plenty time to brace himself, he saw Ninhart charging up the blast and even had time to shout Kagura's name out.

Now that is totally spinning the events in the manga. Neinhart didn't use his attack until Kagura already started running towards Simon. At that point, Jellal had only seconds before Kagura would've gotten hit and he jumped in immediately.

She doesn't even have good regular inellect, while Jellal already knew Midnight's weaknesses beforehand so no, it doesn't increase his intellect.

Fine. That's your opinion but I have reasons for why it is a good example of intelligence.

It does, you think Jellal wouldn't know how the tower would function after being hit with Etherion?

It doesn't matter. Jellal fused with Etherion only. Not the tower.

Why would that be intellect, Zero literally kills Jellal in the illusion, Jellal simply knowing he's not dead it's an illusion, or do you think Jellal thinks Midnight would just sit back and do anything.

Well, it certainly looked like Midnight stood there and did nothing. If it was never revealed as an illusion, you'd probably think Zero was somehow alive.

Doesn't jump the gun? How stupid is that, he done research on Zeref because he's spend all this time looking for him, he's had the time. Tyring to twist words to make Laxus look bad again.

I'm simply stating what is shown.

There's no reason to believe the OTHER DIDN'T SEE THROUGH IT. You're baselessly saying they didn't know. Juvia was shocked at first same with Merdy, while Jellal also had a shocked expression. Heck Jellal himself flat out says "You're.....Alive?!" when he first sees Simon. Stop it.

I know he did. And then Jellal realizes it immediately, while the rest shows no indication of knowing. You have to provide me the proof. I already supported my statements with actual dialogue from the manga.

 

[Brandish μ]

Actually, you guys are right. We should be using current feats from Alvarez Arc. In that case, this just proves my point even further that Jellal and Laxus have similar durability. So far, not one person can give me a good explanation as to why they claim Laxus has higher defense. Jellal tanked Neinhart's attacked with 0 damage. That is impressive in itself considering the only way he was "knocked out" was by having water in his lungs. Laxus would have been in the exact same condition if he was underwater just like Jellal.

Neinhart's Attack

Spoiler

Jellal's Condition

Spoiler

I don't see any sort of injury in these panels. Not on his face and not on his back where the energy blast actually had an impact. So given that Jellal and Laxus have similar Attack Power, Defense, Speed, and MP, this match is most likely going to end up as a draw. Unless... If we factor in Versatility and Intelligence. Then Jellal will win by just a small margin.

Also, note that Laxus sustained a lot more damage in his fight against a Spriggan and had a tougher time whereas Jellal was the only Ishgar mage to actually one-shot a Spriggan from full health to no health.

The only reason why we "think" Laxus has higher durability is because he is more muscular but size doesn't mean anything in FT. Like I said, compare Elfman with Natsu.

Depends how high you want to hype that attack from Neinhart. It was enough to penetrate the boat. But how strong is that really? A punch from base Wahl is enough to smash Laxus through a street of houses, and he came up with no extra damage. Jellal came up with no noticeable damage, but Idk where he was hit. Had he taken it to the back it would have been covered by his clothing. That said, Jellal's durability could be high enough to tank that attack, because I think that attack is on the weak side.

Jellal's feat doesn't prove anything beyond the power level of Neinhart's attack. Laxus; durability is not high enough to no-sell Assault Wahl's attacks in an unguarded state but can endure several of those attacks, and can emerge fine from a brawl with base Wahl. Jellal's durability is matched to Neinhart's attack where he took no perceivable damage in a guarded state. It's obvious to me that Laxus' feats are better physically, and Jellal hasn't gathered enough. Endurance is another factor as well here, and Laxus generated solid feats in that regard that Jellal would need to prove he gets close to. So essentially Laxus > Jellal in physicals.

I also think Jellal didn't get knocked out. Well I'm not a doctor, but CPR revived him, so I assume it was lack of oxygen that caused him to pass out. I've said this already in this thread (I think), that people have passed out from drowning before like in Torafusa's black water. The same happened here with Jellal. for plot purposes. However he could have been hurt from the attack and couldn't think to take a deep breath or it knocked the wind out of him. So it's not something I completely excuse from Jellal's feats, but can definitely seem him attaining more feats in the future that rule out the possibility of Neinhart knocking Jellal out.

So I think Jellal and Laxus are even up until it comes down to physicals, where Laxus has the clear advantage so far. Intelligence/Versatility are like 1% stats in this fight imo. Can't see Jellal or Laxus out-smarting the other. And Jellal's versatility is mitigated somewhat because as he'll need to be using powerful spells only in this fight, and both fighters only have a select few of those. Both have magic that is useful for attack, movement and defence, so they're versatility in a categorical sense are also comparable.

Wahl was basically 100% too when Red Lightning hit... I mean he had no damage from any lightning attack prior to RL, and his exoskeleton is strong enough to take the physicality of Laxus' punches/kicks. Neinhart on the other hand got oneshotted, but Jellal didn't solo Neinhart either, just proved he has offensive power to defeat Spriggans. All this is assuming that Neinhart is right up there with Spriggans physically, but he doesn't have any feats really.

Laxus is more muscly but is also a dragon slayer, they have inherent physical properties that allow them to be tough too. That said you don't need to factor in anything like that - durability is proved by comparing attacks taken on and the damage. Endurance is as important as durability too, imo. Erza for example can take on a lot of damage and continue, thus making her lower-than-Spriggan durability less of an issue.

 

[Beefcakes]

That's my point. He wasn't knocked out on contact. The energy blast hit his back. How would that knock you out? If anything, it would cause you to lose your breath and drown. We saw no damage on his body whatsoever. Furthermore, he didn't shown signs of losing consciousness, injuries, or confusion after being "revived" by Kagura. He simply drowned. You'll need more proof to support your claim on this.

Exactly, Laxus gets back up because he was on land. If he was in the water, there would be no chance for him to rest and stand up again. He would be sinking until who knows when.

Well, if we're going to be absurdly technical to prove our points, then:

http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/481/10

Please refer to the bottom-middle panel. We can still see the bubbles from Jellal's breath coming out. Therefore, you can't use that argument where "Jellal got his breath knocked out from being hit from the back and that's why he was unconscious and drowning".

He was knocked out by the energy blast from Neinhart, period. He still had his dose of oxygen when he entered the water. Therefore, if he was still conscious upon entering the water, he could have easily swam back up on his own.

Simply, Jellal's durability is just meh. Laxus can tank that energy blast just fine and not pathetically drown if he was in that scenario.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2016 ---

And to the folks who claim that Jellal getting was knocked out was a plot device to get him and Kagura to reconcile - well, it is what it is, but Mashima could've done better. The point was just to have Kagura acknowledge that Jellal was a changed person. It wasn't necessary to have him drown, etc. Mashima had a million ways to make Kagura come up with that conclusion and to eventually lead her to help Jellal in whatever despondent state he's gonna be in (whether drowning, injured, etc.)

Instead, he goes out of his way and highlights Jellal STILL getting unconscious. Clearly, Mashima is making a point here.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Depends how high you want to hype that attack from Neinhart. It was enough to penetrate the boat. But how strong is that really? A punch from base Wahl is enough to smash Laxus through a street of houses, and he came up with no extra damage. Jellal came up with no noticeable damage, but Idk where he was hit. Had he taken it to the back it would have been covered by his clothing. That said, Jellal's durability could be high enough to tank that attack, because I think that attack is on the weak side.

Well, assuming that Jellal received an injury on his back, that would mean that the attack must have been physical which it was not. A bruise would make the most sense which I think would've happened here of all situations.

Spoiler

On the other hand, a magic attack like the one Wahl used on Laxus, would go through it.

Spoiler

Anyways, I don't see any evidence of Jellal being damaged considering his condition after the fact. That would be one where proof is needed.

As for Neinhart, his attack may not have been on the same level as Wahl. I can agree on that. But is it fodder level? I don't think so. Either way, because Neinhart is still Spriggan level, I think it has to be somewhat similar. Maybe not on the same level as Wahl but at least comparable.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it is weak though. Again, that would be something that needs evidence to back it up.

Jellal's feat doesn't prove anything beyond the power level of Neinhart's attack. Laxus; durability is not high enough to no-sell Assault Wahl's attacks in an unguarded state but can endure several of those attacks, and can emerge fine from a brawl with base Wahl. Jellal's durability is matched to Neinhart's attack where he took no perceivable damage in a guarded state. It's obvious to me that Laxus' feats are better physically, and Jellal hasn't gathered enough. Endurance is another factor as well here, and Laxus generated solid feats in that regard that Jellal would need to prove he gets close to. So essentially Laxus > Jellal in physicals.

Can you clarify unguarded state and guarded state? Because I think Laxus was well guarded in his fight and braced himself against all of Wahl's incoming attack. Meanwhile, Jellal should be the one who was unguarded due to saving someone and having to jump in to block an attack at a moment's notice.

The way it was shown in the manga, Jellal and Laxus have similar durability and physical feats. We can assume Neinhart being extraordinarily weaker than Wahl, but the burden of proof is not one me at that point.

Again, I fully support the fact that Neinhart is weaker. But is Wahl that much stronger? That is the question.

I also think Jellal didn't get knocked out. Well I'm not a doctor, but CPR revived him, so I assume it was lack of oxygen that caused him to pass out. I've said this already in this thread (I think), that people have passed out from drowning before like in Torafusa's black water. The same happened here with Jellal. for plot purposes. However he could have been hurt from the attack and couldn't think to take a deep breath or it knocked the wind out of him. So it's not something I completely excuse from Jellal's feats, but can definitely seem him attaining more feats in the future that rule out the possibility of Neinhart knocking Jellal out.

Well, since humans breath in oxygen and mostly exhale carbon dioxide, I don't know how much it would help. It could the be lack of oxygen or it could be that Kagura was pumping the water out of his lungs, I don't know. Either way, I agree it was for plot purposes just like in the Tartaros Arc when everyone else drowned.

But I don't see how we can still use this against Jellal. If he was on land and got the wind knocked out of him, he could recover and proceed with a counter-attack. However, when you're getting the wind knocked out of you while being that deep underwater and restricted by chains, I can totally see escaping being nearly impossible.

So I think Jellal and Laxus are even up until it comes down to physicals, where Laxus has the clear advantage so far. Intelligence/Versatility are like 1% stats in this fight imo. Can't see Jellal or Laxus out-smarting the other. And Jellal's versatility is mitigated somewhat because as he'll need to be using powerful spells only in this fight, and both fighters only have a select few of those. Both have magic that is useful for attack, movement and defence, so they're versatility in a categorical sense are also comparable.

Then we'll just have to disagree. Not only in Alvarez Arc, but Jellal has never lost to Laxus in physicals during the other arcs in the past. I think it is solid to say they are equal but if you still don't think so, then I really can't say much more.

Wahl was basically 100% too when Red Lightning hit... I mean he had no damage from any lightning attack prior to RL, and his exoskeleton is strong enough to take the physicality of Laxus' punches/kicks. Neinhart on the other hand got oneshotted, but Jellal didn't solo Neinhart either, just proved he has offensive power to defeat Spriggans. All this is assuming that Neinhart is right up there with Spriggans physically, but he doesn't have any feats really.

Okay, I will give you that Wahl was full health when being hit by Red Lightning.

But not the fact that Jellal didn't solo Neinhart. He did and would've regardless. That said, I don't know what you're referring to. But I don't buy the spinning about Kagura being there and helping him because he clearly didn't need it. Jellal hesitating to use Grand Chariot was straight up for Kagura's own benefit and not his own.

Laxus is more muscly but is also a dragon slayer, they have inherent physical properties that allow them to be tough too. That said you don't need to factor in anything like that - durability is proved by comparing attacks taken on and the damage. Endurance is as important as durability too, imo. Erza for example can take on a lot of damage and continue, thus making her lower-than-Spriggan durability less of an issue.

Well, in DF, I would agree that Laxus has greater defense. Not in base form though. Being more muscular and being a regular dragon slayer in base form is nothing impressive. Sting and Rogue are dragon slayers and still lost to Natsu granted they were also in DF.

I've never seen any feat where Jellal displayed low endurance and stamina so in my mind, Laxus is the same as Jellal here. Even in the past arcs during the Tower of Heaven, Oración Seis, and Tartaros Arcs. If you could find one though, I would be willing to look at it.

I know of the fight between Erza and Midnight where Jellal wasn't able do anything because he was out of MP. But to be fair, Laxus couldn't do anything against Hades when he gave his MP to Natsu. So I still see them as equals here.

Well, if we're going to be absurdly technical to prove our points, then:

http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/481/10

Please refer to the bottom-middle panel. We can still see the bubbles from Jellal's breath coming out. Therefore, you can't use that argument where "Jellal got his breath knocked out from being hit from the back and that's why he was unconscious and drowning".

He was knocked out by the energy blast from Neinhart, period. He still had his dose of oxygen when he entered the water. Therefore, if he was still conscious upon entering the water, he could have easily swam back up on his own.

Simply, Jellal's durability is just meh. Laxus can tank that energy blast just fine and not pathetically drown if he was in that scenario.

I honestly don't see your point. If anything, the bubbles coming out of his mouth would only prove that he was indeed drowning. The air bubbles (oxygen) means he was swallowing the water and losing oxygen.

And to the folks who claim that Jellal getting was knocked out was a plot device to get him and Kagura to reconcile - well, it is what it is, but Mashima could've done better. The point was just to have Kagura acknowledge that Jellal was a changed person. It wasn't necessary to have him drown, etc. Mashima had a million ways to make Kagura come up with that conclusion and to eventually lead her to help Jellal in whatever despondent state he's gonna be in (whether drowning, injured, etc.)

Instead, he goes out of his way and highlights Jellal STILL getting unconscious. Clearly, Mashima is making a point here.

Exactly, the point of all this happening was for Kagura to let go of her grudges against Jellal.

Why did Hiro Mashima make Jellal drown? Nobody knows. It's all interpretation. Maybe he just wanted to make use of the environment and the water surrounding them? To tell us that Jellal can't swim? This can literally mean anything.

The only time I see Jellal unconscious is when he drowned. But the moment Kagura got water out of his lungs, he was perfectly fine. So in my eyes, he tanked it.

 

[Brandish μ]

As for Neinhart, his attack may not have been on the same level as Wahl. I can agree on that. But is it fodder level? I don't think so. Either way, because Neinhart is still Spriggan level, I think it has to be somewhat similar. Maybe not on the same level as Wahl but at least comparable.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it is weak though. Again, that would be something that needs evidence to back it up.

Well I couldn't hype Neinharts attack to be anything special, and probably not at the level of Wahl's punches. Compared to other Spriggans with nuke-like attacks, Neinharts is probably the worst.

Can you clarify unguarded state and guarded state? Because I think Laxus was well guarded in his fight and braced himself against all of Wahl's incoming attack. Meanwhile, Jellal should be the one who was unguarded due to saving someone and having to jump in to block an attack at a moment's notice.

Laxus was clutching his chest, he's basically giving Wahl free hits. Because his body was rendered almost useless (like he didn't even move), I'm happy to say Laxus didn't guard. Jellal would have been guarding himself as he knew Kagura was about to be attacked, he was acting as a shield after all.

This is not a big deal anyway... it's not like they faced equivalent attacks... Wahl's assault attacks are much stronger than Neinharts imo.

But I don't see how we can still use this against Jellal. If he was on land and got the wind knocked out of him, he could recover and proceed with a counter-attack. However, when you're getting the wind knocked out of you while being that deep underwater and restricted by chains, I can totally see escaping being nearly impossible.

I don't excuse the event because it is still possible that Jellal was simply KO'd. My interpretation is that he drowned. Others clearly don't view it the same way and there it's possible that my interpretation is wrong. It's quite possible a physically stronger individual would have gotten out of that situation, and it's quite probable that Laxus is physically superior.

But not the fact that Jellal didn't solo Neinhart. He did and would've regardless. That said, I don't know what you're referring to. But I don't buy the spinning about Kagura being there and helping him because he clearly didn't need it. Jellal hesitating to use Grand Chariot was straight up for Kagura's own benefit and not his own.

Neinhart did not get soloed. His magic took on numerous people. Could he create enough historia's out of Jellal's past to make it a decent fight? Maybe. Maybe not. But Jellal didn't take on any other Historia. If we go by Neinharts feats, he was able to make Hades, Ur, Kyoka, Ezel, Zancrow, Azuma, Keith and Ikaruga simultaneously. If Jellal beat Neinhart and company without help that would be a solo effort.

What Jellal proved is that GC can oneshot Neinhart. He didn't exactly combat Neinhart in 1-on-1 battle though. But I don't really know how to treat this as Neinhart needed more memories to make more Historia's. But if he could produce a like-force as he did, then I highly doubt Jellal can oneshot Neinhart.

Well, in DF, I would agree that Laxus has greater defense. Not in base form though. Being more muscular and being a regular dragon slayer in base form is nothing impressive. Sting and Rogue are dragon slayers and still lost to Natsu granted they were also in DF.

I've never seen any feat where Jellal displayed low endurance and stamina so in my mind, Laxus is the same as Jellal here. Even in the past arcs during the Tower of Heaven, Oración Seis, and Tartaros Arcs. If you could find one though, I would be willing to look at it.

I know of the fight between Erza and Midnight where Jellal wasn't able do anything because he was out of MP. But to be fair, Laxus couldn't do anything against Hades when he gave his MP to Natsu. So I still see them as equals here.

Laxus doesn't have Dragon Force.

Being a DS is better than not being one, physically. If Laxus never got a Lacrima then I would say his physicality would be less by a margin (small or large I don't know) - as slayer attain some dragon-like properties. Sting and Rogue are just not in Natsu's league, it has nothing to do with their DS traits.

I don't think I've said Jellal is low in endurance. He's just not equivalent to Laxus. Jellal would need comparable feats and he doesn't have one that is. You can say he does based on opinion, but it wouldn't be feat-based. I've always felt Laxus > Jellal for physicals anyway, though the difference isn't much. And in this arc, the evidence is in Laxus' favour, as Jellal hasn't been in a proper fight.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Well I couldn't hype Neinharts attack to be anything special, and probably not at the level of Wahl's punches. Compared to other Spriggans with nuke-like attacks, Neinharts is probably the worst.

I would definitely say that Neinhart's attack rivals Wahl's punches which were not that impressive. Physical attacks (that are not infused with magic) are usually weaker than magical attacks so I would only classify Wahl's magic attacks to be stronger than any of Neinhart's attacks.

Laxus was clutching his chest, he's basically giving Wahl free hits. Because his body was rendered almost useless (like he didn't even move), I'm happy to say Laxus didn't guard. Jellal would have been guarding himself as he knew Kagura was about to be attacked, he was acting as a shield after all.

This is not a big deal anyway... it's not like they faced equivalent attacks... Wahl's assault attacks are much stronger than Neinharts imo.

But the MBP's only kicked in during parts of the fight. Even so, Laxus was still able to expect Wahl's incoming attacks. On the contrary, Jellal was not on guard especially since he didn't expect Neinhart to attack Kagura. So when Neinhart actually made a move, it took everyone by surprise and Jellal had to jump in instantly. Acting as a shield doesn't necessarily mean you're on guard. It just means you took the hit whether you were prepared or not.

I don't excuse the event because it is still possible that Jellal was simply KO'd. My interpretation is that he drowned. Others clearly don't view it the same way and there it's possible that my interpretation is wrong. It's quite possible a physically stronger individual would have gotten out of that situation, and it's quite probable that Laxus is physically superior.

Okay, fine. But despite the fact that there is evidence to support that Jellal wasn't knocked out by Neinhart's attack, while people still claim that he did without any reasonable proof, just doesn't make sense.

Neinhart did not get soloed. His magic took on numerous people. Could he create enough historia's out of Jellal's past to make it a decent fight? Maybe. Maybe not. But Jellal didn't take on any other Historia. If we go by Neinharts feats, he was able to make Hades, Ur, Kyoka, Ezel, Zancrow, Azuma, Keith and Ikaruga simultaneously. If Jellal beat Neinhart and company without help that would be a solo effort.

That doesn't even make sense though. So Laxus didn't solo Wahl? After all, he got help from Gray, Juvia, Mirajane, Lisanna, Elfman, Freed, BickIslow, Evergreen, and Ichiya. If they didn't destroy Wahl's robots, it would have been Laxus vs. Wahl + Wahl's robots. Same concept but still doesn't make any sense.

What Jellal proved is that GC can oneshot Neinhart. He didn't exactly combat Neinhart in 1-on-1 battle though. But I don't really know how to treat this as Neinhart needed more memories to make more Historia's. But if he could produce a like-force as he did, then I highly doubt Jellal can oneshot Neinhart.

It really doesn't matter how many memories Neinhart can make against Jellal. The magic is just so easy to counter. By simply having a strong will, they will disappear which Jellal already showed he was capable of. Or the AoE of Grand Chariot would just kill Neinhart + Historia's all in one blow. I can still see a one-shot here.

Laxus doesn't have Dragon Force.

Being a DS is better than not being one, physically. If Laxus never got a Lacrima then I would say his physicality would be less by a margin (small or large I don't know) - as slayer attain some dragon-like properties. Sting and Rogue are just not in Natsu's league, it has nothing to do with their DS traits.

I don't think I've said Jellal is low in endurance. He's just not equivalent to Laxus. Jellal would need comparable feats and he doesn't have one that is. You can say he does based on opinion, but it wouldn't be feat-based. I've always felt Laxus > Jellal for physicals anyway, though the difference isn't much. And in this arc, the evidence is in Laxus' favour, as Jellal hasn't been in a proper fight.

I know. That is why I said that Laxus wouldn't gain any defense just for being a dragon slayer. A dragon slayer only attains dragon-like properties in DF mode. Otherwise, they are just as good as nothing. Compare this to Gray. He only becomes a "demon" when demonized. He is still a regular human after all with no special attributes.

But just because Jellal hasn't been in a proper fight, doesn't mean we can automatically assume he has lower stats. In that case, this tournament would be pointless as the Alvarez Arc is not even close to ending. Natsu, being the main character, would obviously get the most feats from Hiro Mashima. It doesn't matter though because Jellal has proven that he is quite comparable to Laxus in defense. You can have the last word because we're just going to disagree.

 

[Brandish μ]

I would definitely say that Neinhart's attack rivals Wahl's punches which were not that impressive. Physical attacks (that are not infused with magic) are usually weaker than magical attacks so I would only classify Wahl's magic attacks to be stronger than any of Neinhart's attacks.

Punches can definitely do more damage than magic attack if there is enough power in them. Wahl's punches are improved by having a mechanical body, as seen in one of his punches that sent Laxus flying.

Any attack is judged by what happens. Spells or not.

But the MBP's only kicked in during parts of the fight. Even so, Laxus was still able to expect Wahl's incoming attacks. On the contrary, Jellal was not on guard especially since he didn't expect Neinhart to attack Kagura. So when Neinhart actually made a move, it took everyone by surprise and Jellal had to jump in instantly. Acting as a shield doesn't necessarily mean you're on guard. It just means you took the hit whether you were prepared or not.

Anti-magic particles kicked it just as Wahl entered Assault mode.

Laxus noticed Wahl was coming at him, but he didn't even have the mobility to move at all. He's still clutching his chest.

Jellal jumped at Kagura because he knew that he was going to be attacked. I am quite sure he braced for impact, but if you want I can leave this as inconclusive. Though it wouldn't be too smart of Jellal to shield someone and not even brace would it?

Okay, fine. But despite the fact that there is evidence to support that Jellal wasn't knocked out by Neinhart's attack, while people still claim that he did without any reasonable proof, just doesn't make sense.

I think there's enough evidence either way. Other people are claiming Jellal was taken out by the blast because it exists as a possible explanation. I disagree with that, but I don't believe their claim has been debunked.

That doesn't even make sense though. So Laxus didn't solo Wahl? After all, he got help from Gray, Juvia, Mirajane, Lisanna, Elfman, Freed, BickIslow, Evergreen, and Ichiya. If they didn't destroy Wahl's robots, it would have been Laxus vs. Wahl + Wahl's robots. Same concept but still doesn't make any sense.

Seriously... Wahl sent a toy into Magnolia. He should have the capacity to summon those same bots in a fight against Laxus. But Wahl didn't. Likely reason is that Wahl himself fights the way he did against Laxus when a strong opponent is facing him. Or that toy got destroyed and Wahl didn't care to create/use another. Assault Wahl > base Wahl >> toy Wahl > weakness bots.

Neinhart on the other hand uses his Historia's as his primary combat method of combat. His methods are are part psychological, part power. Neinhart can make Hades tiered characters while also creating strong enemies like Kyoka and Ur. Even when threatened by Jellal he used a Historia - Simon. Why Simon? Because Neinhart was confident after seeing their histories that Simon could impose some emotional effect, which is as I mentioned part of the parcel of Historia.

Simply put, Neinhart as a combatant individually isn't in the same stratosphere as Wahl. They might be comparable in physicals but Neinhart has no feats. However, in a war situation, Neinhart is a very useful wizard with Historia magic.

It really doesn't matter how many memories Neinhart can make against Jellal. The magic is just so easy to counter. By simply having strong will, they will disappear which I'm certain Jellal can do. Or the AoE of Grand Chariot would just kill Neinhart + Historia's all in one blow. I can still see a one-shot here.

Does Jellal have said strong will? Only Erza has shown to do this.

Jellal would be intercepted before casting if he's got Hades and company to deal with.

I know. That is why I said that Laxus wouldn't gain any defense just for being a dragon slayer. A dragon slayer only attains dragon-like properties in DF mode. Otherwise, they are just as good as nothing. Just like Gray. He only becomes a "demon" when demonized. He is still a regular human after all with no special attributes.

But just because Jellal hasn't been in a proper fight, doesn't mean we can automatically assume he has lower stats. In that case, this tournament would be pointless as the Alvarez Arc is not even close to ending. Natsu, being the main character, would obviously get the most feats from Hiro Mashima. It doesn't matter though because Jellal has proven that he is quite comparable to Laxus in defense. You can have the last word because we're just going to disagree.

Dragon slayers gain dragon-like properties (like their senses). Dragon force is when their physiology changes to become even more dragon like; with being full-dragon the likely endpoint of DF. Acnologia is said to become a dragon from the overuse of DS magic. Natsu spoke of Gray's DeS marking as "Gray learning devil slayer magic way too fast, and might of become a devil himself". It's reasonable to assume that Gray has some demon properties physiologically now.

Feats are earned, so you need limits to be pushed to say X >=< Y. For now Laxus has better feats.

 

[Ebony Maw]

Your appearance changes when you age........ you don't have to run around free changing it, peoples appearances don't necessarily change or remain the same over time, Jellal's appearance hasn't changed and he's been running free. The appearance argument isn't a solid one and there is nothing that showed they escaped jail, I'm using facts here to determine this fight, not speculation, not portrayal, I refuse to do any of the two after the travesty I witnessed that was Natsu vs God Serena, all logic in that fight went out of the window because people relied so damn heavily on speculation. Using actual facts from the manga, the OS were locked up for seven years.

If the OS were locked up for seven years then we're stuck with the question of how Angel learnt new magic in an anti-magic (something along those words) cell? Speculating that the OS did get out wouldn't be anywhere near the shitstorm Natsu vs God Serena was because the former has some evidence to support it (new magic for Angel, different clothes) whereas the latter did the opposite and went against evidence (I voted for God Serena btw).

 

[Orgastthemage]

One thing that COULD potentially set the difference is either Laxus's athleticism or Jellal's Diversity.

Jellal HAS the potential to set attacks up beforehand. As he did against Oracion Seis.

Laxus has Incredible physicality and could deal with all of Jellal's probable punishment(if He gets hit).

I still give this to Jellal just because I believe Jellal is the better strategist by a NARROW margin. Jellal could potential overcome Laxus's physicality THROUGH his Diversity of spells and Strategems. That is the NARROW, ALMOST NEGLIGIBLE, difference between them.

 

[Ebony Maw]

One thing that COULD potentially set the difference is either Laxus's athleticism or Jellal's Diversity.

Jellal HAS the potential to set attacks up beforehand. As he did against Oracion Seis.

Laxus has Incredible physicality and could deal with all of Jellal's probable punishment(if He gets hit).

I still give this to Jellal just because I believe Jellal is the better strategist by a NARROW margin. Jellal could potential overcome Laxus's physicality THROUGH his Diversity of spells and Strategems. That is the NARROW, ALMOST NEGLIGIBLE, difference between them.

How is Jellal going to set up spells before the match begins? As soon as it starts they'll fight so how can he set up attacks beforehand?

 

[Orgastthemage]

How is Jellal going to set up spells before the match begins? As soon as it starts they'll fight so how can he set up attacks beforehand?

i guess instead of beforehand, one could say in the midst or early stages of the battle. They will most likely be feeling each other out before going with their best moves.

THAT is when Jellal, as i believe, being the better strategist, will provide the difference. A potent spell, set up early on.

 

[Ebony Maw]

i guess instead of beforehand, one could say in the midst or early stages of the battle. They will most likely be feeling each other out before going with their best moves.

THAT is when Jellal, as i believe, being the better strategist, will provide the difference. A potent spell.

While I'm still half and half about this (this is the toughest match, I thought this would be the finals), I could actually see this happening but I'm not sure if it would damage Laxus enough. While I kind of dislike Laxus' endurance (it feels like straight up plot armour sometimes) it's still there and I don't think anything short of a fully accurate GC is going to put a dent in him.