Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

Do agree that you'd need very high attack power to actually damage King while in defense mode and I don't think Katakuri has shown anything that packs that level of power yet. Maybe if he gains aCoC he can do it by using his power mochi attack.

I think where Katakuri can fight King is by using his aCoO to take advantage of King switching to attack mode. Since he excelled at counter attacks I think he'd do well against King in that regard.


Didn't Magellan have the ability to create poison gas? If he releases a bunch of that in a large area Katakuri could get hurt more easily. He did get knocked out by Caesars sleep gas in the cover story.

Do agree on the other points where Magellan struggled against the G2 speed. For that I'd expect Magellan if he returns in the story to get some retcon, since tbh G2 Luffy performed too well in Marineford by today's power level standards. He should have been fodder back then.

yeah, i don't think katakuri has shown anything even close to capable of causing meaningful damage through king's defense mode. 1 hp damage at a time...

I mean, sure, if a battle gets long magellan can probably poison anyone. I just don't see this fight going any other way than katakuri shooting magellan in the head with a mochi bullet. Magellan needs a major boost from his part 1 self to do something here. Or an insanely convenient scenario. Katakuri is not someone magellan could catch off guard, he'd literally see the poison coming unless he is being a luffy level asshat for some reason.

 

[Pirate Queen]

"The only thing king has going for him his offensive power". What does that mean? King has a defense mode.

I mean to say the only Stat King has over Katakuri is Offensive power.

I would(and have) argued that King's defense is as hax as Katakuri's Future Sight.

If you make the arguement that Katakuri can't hurt King then I would make the arguement that King can't land a hit on Katakuri. Their abilities to avoid damage is almost negligible.

You say King explodes but Katakuri doesn't even need to be anywhere near King to attack him. He has Peerless Donuts(With advanced acoa) and can use Mochi World

 

[kkck]

I mean to say the only Stat King has over Katakuri is Offensive power.

I would(and have) argued that King's defense is as hax as Katakuri's Future Sight.

If you make the arguement that Katakuri can't hurt King then I would make the arguement that King can't land a hit on Katakuri. Their abilities to avoid damage is almost negligible.

You say King explodes but Katakuri doesn't even need to be anywhere near King to attack him. He has Peerless Donuts(With advanced acoa) and can use Mochi World

How fast do you think king is? Do you think katakuri could simply keep king at bay? The most likely scenario is that king's attack mode has speed as high or higher than luffy's G4... less than that and his speed is not really significant. Let alone that we saw how the fight between luffy and katakuri played out, katakuri doesn't make any point of keeping things at mid range or longer. Katakuri is ultimately a close range brawler with supplemental long range skills.

 

[Pirate Queen]

yeah, i don't think katakuri has shown anything even close to capable of causing meaningful damage through king's defense mode.

Katakuro doesn't have to hurt him through his defense mode. King actively switches in and out of two modes throughout his fights.

I agree that Katakuri can't hurt him through his flame on form but that's literally the whole point.

Katakuri likewise you need FS to even be able to tag him

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Katakuri has shown and displayed a powerful offensive above even G4 at times. Do you really think "Flames off" King can tank continuous G4 level punched or am I misunderstanding you

I was saying if King is in defense mode that Katakuri would need more power than he's shown to damage him. If King has flames off, I think Katakuri can easily deal with King.

 

[Pirate Queen]

How fast do you think king is? Do you think katakuri could simply keep king at bay? The most likely scenario is that king's attack mode has speed as high or higher than luffy's G4... less than that and his speed is not really significant. Let alone that we saw how the fight between luffy and katakuri played out, katakuri doesn't make any point of keeping things at mid range or longer. Katakuri is ultimately a close range brawler with supplemental long range skills.

Zoro was reacting to King's speed mode and he was struggling with Enma at the time King didn't even have his full attention. What do you mean King has equivalent speed to G4 Luffy?

Your talking about G4 Snakeman Luffy speed that STUN LOCKED Kaido without ACoC. No shot you believe that lol. G4 speed that FORCED Kaido into using Future sight of his own. Katakuri was keeping up with that speed

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2024, Original Post Date: Apr 4, 2024 ---

I was saying if King is in defense mode that Katakuri would need more power than he's shown to damage him. If King has flames off, I think Katakuri can easily deal with King.

No one has anything that can penetrate Flames on King unless you have Internal Damage type attacks or ACoC(And even this is arguable since Zoro never hurt him in his flames on mode)

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I mean, sure, if a battle gets long magellan can probably poison anyone. I just don't see this fight going any other way than katakuri shooting magellan in the head with a mochi bullet. Magellan needs a major boost from his part 1 self to do something here. Or an insanely convenient scenario.

I do think we need to give Magellan benefit of the doubt since he was pre-skip. Like I said, G2 Luffy also performed abnormally well in Marineford when by all post-skip power standards he should have been fodder. The same G2 Luffy that struggled against Pacifista being anything but another fodder pirate in MF is already enough to say that Magellan by portrayal would be strong fighter in current story. We just need to see him return and you'll see him get same treatment as most pre-skip people when reintroduced.

Katakuri is not someone magellan could catch off guard, he'd literally see the poison coming unless he is being a luffy level asshat for some reason.

I mean Caesar Clown of all people managed to do this so wouldn't overestimate his ability to get caught up in poison gas.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Internal Damage CoA
Rokugan
Ope Ope no mi
Arguably ACoC

Idk what else would be able to hurt Flame Mode King

 

[kkck]

Katakuro doesn't have to hurt him through his defense mode. King actively switches in and out of two modes throughout his fights.

I agree that Katakuri can't hurt him through his flame on form but that's literally the whole point.

Katakuri likewise you need FS to even be able to tag him

Sure, king can definitely take damage in his attack mode. But in his attack mode king is extraordinarily fast, and his offensive power skyrockets. Almost definitely above what katakuri has while at it, since its an attack mode.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

No one has anything that can penetrate Flames on King unless you have Internal Damage type attacks or ACoC(And even this is arguable since Zoro never hurt him in his flames on mode)

I'd like to think aCoC and aCoA level 2 can damage Flame On King. And I strongly believe Katakuri will gain aCoC now that its becoming more common in the story.

 

[kkck]

Zoro was reacting to King's speed mode and he was struggling with Enma at the time King didn't even have his full attention. What do you mean King has equivalent speed to G4 Luffy?

Your talking about G4 Snakeman Luffy speed that STUN LOCKED Kaido without ACoC. No shot you believe that lol. G4 speed that FORCED Kaido into using Future sight of his own. Katakuri was keeping up with that speed

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2024, Original Post Date: Apr 4, 2024 ---

No one has anything that can penetrate Flames on King unless you have Internal Damage type attacks or ACoC(And even this is arguable since Zoro never hurt him in his flames on mode)

Iluffy at the end of wano is incomparable stronger than he was at WCI in general. Near the end luffy could trade blows with kaido even without using G4... While at the start of wano luffy got one shot and blitzed by base kaido.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 4, 2024 ---

Internal Damage CoA
Rokugan
Ope Ope no mi
Arguably ACoC

Idk what else would be able to hurt Flame Mode King

I wouldn't really bet on advance armor haki being enough unless the person using was BS to begin with. Zoro doesn't have internal damage armor haki but swordsmanship requires at least emission to begin with. And zoro using cladding just got king to dodge in defense mode, it's not even definitive if it would get through or how much damage king would take. Ope fruit can probably get through but in turn it doesn't cause damage anyways. Rokugan probably can't do the trick unless paired with high level armor haki.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Iluffy at the end of wano is incomparable stronger than he was at WCI in general. Near the end luffy could trade blows with kaido even without using G4... While at the start of wano luffy got one shot and blitzed by base kaido.

G4 Luffy is alot slower than G4 Snakeman, by alot. It's not even comparable.

And yes his strength increased drastically but Kaido was struggling with Luffy's speed first and foremort. Not his strength. other than being locked in place and needing his own FS to get out of it

 

[M3J]

As long as Katakuri can use his Future Sight, I think he'd probably win as he could save energy by predicting what his attacks will do and the effect it'll have, so he knows which attack to go with.

or am I wrong with how FS works?

 

[Fox666]

G4 Luffy is alot slower than G4 Snakeman, by alot. It's not even comparable.

And yes his strength increased drastically but Kaido was struggling with Luffy's speed first and foremort. Not his strength. other than being locked in place and needing his own FS to get out of it

Luffy's speed also increased along with his strength, everything about him improved.

At the beggining of Wano, Kaido was so fast that Luffy couldn't dodge in Gear 4, and so strong Luffy was defeated in a single blow. But when Luffy reached the rooftop, his base form was strong, fast and durable enough to keep up with Kaido's hybrid form.

Even if Luffy didn't used future sight back then, that doesn't change that his body wasn't fast enough to dodge a single attack of Kaido, while he could keep up with Kaido later on.

 

[Pirate Queen]

At the beggining of Wano, Kaido was so fast that Luffy couldn't dodge in Gear 4, and so strong Luffy was defeated in a single blow. But when Luffy reached the rooftop, his base form was strong, fast and durable enough to keep up with Kaido's hybrid form.

Like I said. Snakeman g4 is drastically faster than regular g4. They aren't comparable

 

[kkck]

It's clear that there's a tradeoff of speed and strength between boundman and snakeman though the manga does not have any specific reference of the degree of the tradeoff. Luffy pulled snakeman against katakuri but up to that point there wasn't any indication that G4 was altogether too slow handle katakuri. Kaido getting stunlocked by snakeman is also a huge stretch. In the end luffy a various points fought kaido with his base form, with boundman and also snakeman... And that in spite of how huge a boost boundman is in terms of speed and strength compared to G2 and G3 (which luffy casually uses in his base).

 

[Pirate Queen]

It's clear that there's a tradeoff of speed and strength between boundman and snakeman though the manga does not have any specific reference of the degree of the tradeoff. Luffy pulled snakeman against katakuri but up to that point there wasn't any indication that G4 was altogether too slow handle katakuri. Kaido getting stunlocked by snakeman is also a huge stretch. In the end luffy a various points fought kaido with his base form, with boundman and also snakeman... And that in spite of how huge a boost boundman is in terms of speed and strength compared to G2 and G3 (which luffy casually uses in his base).

I honestly feel you are wrong in both accounts. Kaido was being overwhelmed by Snakeman and was getting pummeled in place until he used Future sight.

As for Snakeman, there was huge difference when he transitioned into Snakeman from regular boundman. The entire tone of the fight changed. Your comparing the fight to Kaido but Kaido was able to take g4 attacks like nothing. Kaido dodging was not his strong point. Katakuri dodged. That was his whole thing. Nothing to do with speed vs Kaido during the incident im talking about. But when Luffy did transition Kaido was struggling until he had no choice but to use FS to escape Luffy's barrage.

Keep in mind Kaido was doing this ON TOP of his Heavenly Drunken Dance Mode

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2024, Original Post Date: Apr 5, 2024 ---

I think the point I want to street the most is that Despite Zoro noting King had a speedier form it wasn't anything Zoro couldn't handle despite being "handicapped" at the moment. So unless you think an unfocused, heavily damaged, Zoro has speed comparable to G4 Snakeman I'm not seeing when King's speed is even close to Katakuri.

 

[HereNThere]

While we've taken to calling King's Flame Off mode "speed mode", it should be noted King's speed was never highlighted to be particularly impressive. King was shown to be Zoro's physical superior for the majority of the fight already, so being him being faster was already a given. And when Zoro mentioned the increased speed, it was mainly because he correctly correlated that increase with King being vulnerable to attacks. The increased speed was just the signal.

 

[Pirate Queen]

While we've taken to calling King's Flame Off mode "speed mode", it should be noted King's speed was never highlighted to be particularly impressive. King was shown to be Zoro's physical superior for the majority of the fight already, so being him being faster was already a given. And when Zoro mentioned the increased speed, it was mainly because he correctly correlated that increase with King being vulnerable to attacks. The increased speed was just the signal.

I know that but for some reason it easier for me to think of it as Speed Mode vs Flame on mode lol but thank you for making that distinction. It can easily be lost into the madness of debating in such a technical way.

The laser head thing tho, the "laser" thing was his quickest attack if I'm not mistaken

 

[DeadlyBeast]

The laser head thing tho, the "laser" thing was his quickest attack if I'm not mistaken

Yeah think he called it something like Tempura Udon???

Whatever it was, it was King's fastest attack. But Zoro did still manage to dodge it so I think it's still easier than G4 Snakeman attack. I do think it might be faster than Snakeman but we also have to account for Snakeman attacks being like homing missiles that redirect. Much easier to dodge super fast straight attack vs slightly slower moving attack.