I do think both matter but I think I maybe contextualize their importance to each other depending on the fight (admittedly this will introduce personal bias but power scaling as a whole is never free of that so I try to do it carefully). For me this goes back to that fight Zoro had with Zombie Ryuma where it was commented by Brook that they were both similar in fighting style and physical strength, and as a result how the fight would be short.
On the point of Zoro vs zombie Ryuma.
Right, this is true when it comes to a fight where both are
high attack power fighters. But this was before haki was a thing, and that is a big difference. Haki allows you to tank attacks that you otherwise can't. For example, Zoro tanked King's mountain size explosion with no damage, but also claimed that if he didn't defend with haki he would've been one shot.
Coming to Zoro vs Kaku.
Kaku could tank Zoro's attacks due to "tekkai"
And onto the counter example.
Luffy and Lucci are both similar fighters, in that they are physical fighters who rely on martial arts. Luffy vs Lucci was one of the most even fights in the series, with
countless attacks being exchanged.
The way OP depicts fights changes depending on the narrative Oda is going for but in all reality when two fighters are relative equals, the fight should be short and end with few attacks landing, especially if the fighters in question are attack heavy. Zoro v Lucci fell into this category for me, where a single serious attack from either landing on the other was likely to end the fight. The reason I think the fight took so long aside from plot is both of them couldn't manage to land a real attack and when Zoro finally did he won. This dynamic is especially true for CP agents who fight to kill: thinking of the fights in Onigashima such as CP0 v Apoo, CP0 v Drake and even in this arc when Lucci did a sneak attack on Sentomaru. Since this was the lense through which I viewed Zoro v Lucci, I ended up counting injury less.
On bold part.
Yes for Zoro, no for Lucci.
Kaku was more attack power heavy than Lucci, even though Lucci was in general stronger (look at Kaku's attack cutting that entire giant tower in half). Zoro tanked several attacks from Kaku.
Luffy also took several attacks from Lucci as well, and Zoro is roughly comparable to Luffy when it comes to durability/endurance, as we saw later in TB.
And currently, the gap is far higher. Let's say Lucci has comparable armament haki to Zoro, but Zoro had advanced conqueror's which is a further boost to durability too.
Zoro is more than capable of tanking several hits from Lucci.
The only character who had the risk of getting one shot here was Lucci, not Zoro.
CP0 vs Apoo/Drake was not a one shot fight.
It was a fight that went on for some time off-screen, after which we only saw the victors. Same with CP0 vs Izo, another off screen fight where we only saw the end. They could've exchanged blows off screen, we don't know.
However, I do completely admit this is difficult to judge. In the same vein we'd think Zoro v Kaku should have ended with few injuries since they were relatively equal. It seems to me Oda has both sides land hits and get injured when its a main fight that is being shown but when similar fights happen as a side element of the plot, we see only one/two attacks land with fight ending quickly.
Isn't this an issue with your perception though?
Oda has shown SEVERAL fights in the series where equal fighters continue to fight for a long duration, exchanging many blows. Point being, what tends to happen in the series is opposite of how you think fights between even fighters should go.
Zoro vs zombie Ryuma was an exception to the norm of fights between comparable fighters taking forever in OP.
The usual scenario where two comparable fighters end the fight quickly in OP, is if they there is some intervention/off-guard shenanigans. Eg: Akainu/WB, Kaido/Oden.
This is true even with Zoro v Kaku 2.0 where we didn't have a conclusion to the fight showing that both Kaku & Lucci can hold Zoro off vs being low diff wins for him. To me if Kaku & Lucci were low diff for Zoro they wouldn't be able to stall him.
That's why I land on mid diff to high diff for Zoro v Lucci. The big open question for me is if Zoro used aCoC or not, which we can't explicitly tell since it forces us to do haki analysis which is not great. If he didn't use aCoC I stick with Mid Diff. If he used aCoC in that fight and it didn't end there, then High Diff.
Here is the thing.
I think Lucci and Kaku are both capable of stalling a non serious Zoro who doesn't use advanced conqueror's haki.
But if Zoro gets focused (i.e improve CQC) and/or use advanced conqueror's, they are toast.
For me, using advanced conqueror's doesn't automatically up the diff of the fight to high diff.
Because it is becoming an ability that Zoro is able to spam at this point, assuming the final attack was advanced conqueror's, Zoro can now use that ability without even going all out (i.e KoH).
Look at Zoro vs Hyozo, Zoro vs Monet, Zoro vs Pica, or even Zoro vs Killer
All were capable of clashing with non serious Zoro, but once Zoro got serious, it was over. This has been Zoro fight pattern then entire post TS, with exception of rooftop and King (both of which were heavy challenges that forced Zoro to grow stronger).
Good point on the Killer fight. There was interference from Gyu something fox person. Otherwise you're right Zoro would have comfortably handled that form of Killer (since he wasn't fighting his normal style won't comment on real Killer though how he went out in Elbaf makes me think low diff since I have hard time imagining Zoro going down like that to an indirect hit).
Yeah, it was a fight that Zoro should've won comfortably.
It also circles back to my point of characters clashing with Zoro when he isn't serious. Zoro hits considerably above his "tier", and he isn't MC so he doesn't get serious challenges all the time. So this is Oda's way of having Zoro busy for some plots, stall piece.
think this is a bit disingenuous. Its clear Lucci has shown that with haki on this hands/claws he can block Zoro's swords but the same does not apply to his body. So even if we leave out KoH/aCoC this is akin to asking why did Lucci go down to Zoro's CoA haki swords when he was just blocking them before with his CoA haki hands/claws?
To me it can make sense that a Lucci actively using CoA haki hands/claws successfully to block either CoA or aCoC swords is still consistent with a Lucci that gets taken out if a CoA or aCoC named sword attack from Zoro lands on his main body.
This is also why I said before, had Zoro failed to dodge Lucci's Madara attack he would have lost the fight. I don't think his body would have just taken it, he'd had been riddled with holes. Do you disagree?
Lucci with haki in his hands/claws can clash with Zoro who isn't using advanced conqueror's.
Lucci is very strong armament haki, mastered to the levels of barrier and internal destruction. He had an equal clash with G5 Luffy using armament haki
Lucci's armament haki is comparable to armament haki of Luffy or Zoro.
What Zoro has, that Lucci doesn't, is advanced conqueror's haki.
If you assume that Zoro's final attack was advanced conqueror's, the fight starts making more sense.
Coming back to my query
is Lucci ~ smoke santoryuu Zoro ~ base nittoryuu Zoro?
How can this be the case, when the attack that took Lucci from almost full hp to like < 20% hp was a mid-end attack WITHOUT KoH ?
If we presume that Lucci's and Zoro's advanced armament haki is roughly comparable.
How can Lucci clash with Zoro if Zoro is also overusing advanced conqueror's on top of it? I think that should at least logically rule out Zoro using KoH. Lucci surviving an overuse of advanced armament (smoke) can be explained by him overusing his own advanced armament haki.
Removing logic all together, I think the real answer is that Oda wanted this fight to be in background, otherwise we get to nonsense scaling like this.
Now to addressing some key points:
So even if we leave out KoH/aCoC this is akin to asking why did Lucci go down to Zoro's CoA haki swords when he was just blocking them before with his CoA haki hands/claws?
Because Lucci's armament haki is top tier. It is roughly comparable to Zoro's, hence he can clash with Zoro's armament haki. Plus, they were clashes and not named attacks which are stronger.
To make it simple, can rooftop Zoro clash with current Zoro if advanced conqueror's is restricted? Yes, even though current Zoro is better in physical stats and armament through powercreep, main improvement was advanced conqueror's, and without it rooftop Zoro can give a tough challenge to current Zoro.
Similar story here.
I have Lucci comparable to rooftop Zoro, broadly speaking.
To me it can make sense that a Lucci actively using CoA haki hands/claws successfully to block either CoA or aCoC swords is still consistent with a Lucci that gets taken out if a CoA or aCoC named sword attack from Zoro lands on his main body.
Armament haki is not fixed. You can use it anywhere you want on the body.
For example: Zoro used fully body armament haki to tank without injuries, a massive explosion from King, that otherwise would have killed him.
Two options here:
- Lucci was too slow to react to Zoro, which means serious Zoro would have blitzed Lucci anyway
- Lucci reacted and put haki on his body, but Zoro's attack was too powerful to tank anyway.
No matter how you look, Zoro comes out looking good here.
Either he was so fast when serious that he blitzed Lucci (which would be in line with him casually dodging Lucci's named barrage of attacks).
Or he hits so hard that Lucci couldn't defend with haki even (which makes sense if he's using advanced conqueror's) .
This is also why I said before, had Zoro failed to dodge Lucci's Madara attack he would have lost the fight. I don't think his body would have just taken it, he'd had been riddled with holes. Do you disagree?
Yes, I do disagree.
A weaker version of Zoro took as powerful or more powerful attacks in Wano.
The explosion from King was almost as big as Onigashima castle itself. And Zoro with just (advanced) armament haki, no sold the attack.
Zoro, pre haki, was tanking attacks from Kaku. And it's objectively true that EL Kaku was closer in power to EL Zoro, than current Lucci is to current Zoro (tell me if you disagree).
If Zoro couldn't dodge Lucci's attacks, he could've used advanced armament haki and advanced conqueror's haki to soften the blow and tanked it.
He probably would have tanked it with only scratches if he focused on defending with haki.
Heck, even if we restrict advanced conqueror's, Zoro would've still tanked (given he tanked King's explosion), but maybe with injuries.
I think this goes to what I said in the first part where Oda shows a lot more back and forth, with both sides landing attacks etc for fights he wants to depict. However, for side fights that are off screened we pretty much just see people holding each other in place and only see attacks land at the end when they conclude. Don't forget Zoro also fought Kaku in Egghead and failed to win (fight was not concluded). Since Kaku is weaker than Lucci (unless you disagree), you'd think a Zoro that can low diff Lucci would have no trouble taking Kaku out quickly too but that just wasn't the case.
I addressed this earlier, but will point out again that Zoro clashing till he gets serious is kinda the norm post TS - Hyozo, Monet, Pica, Killer. And now, Lucci.
As for Kaku, my take is that like with Lucci, Kaku can stall a non serious Zoro who doesn't use advanced conqueror's or fully focus in CQC.
Zoro low diff Kaku.
Zoro low-mid diff Lucci.
I have Lucci >= Katakuri, Kaku >= Queen.
I'll disagree on the KoH in that my position is its unknown. But that aside my rationale is that had either side landed a named attack directly on the other, the fight would have ended.
On Kaido v Luffy, 1010 not sure how much hp Luffy took but I think 10% is reasonable. Although I again have to stress how Oda shows tons of back & forth for where attacks land for fights that he shows with a lot of focus.
Contrast this with old WB v Akainu. Both attacked each other a lot but only landed a couple attacks, each of which was pretty fatal in the fight e.g. Akainu took piece of WB head and Akainu took huge blow to the head. When opponents of similar levels fight, this is typically what should happen, they hold each other off until an attack lands which tends to finish the fight.
Regarding old WB vs Akainu.
WB was off his meds and had POOR haki, and was incapable of using advanced conqueror's haki.
And Akainu is at this point established as amongst the highest AP dudes in the verse. Akainu is a swordsman type fighter, in that he hits above his tier; take attacks from him without defenses and you are toast.
Akainu got hit off guard by WB, and Akainu got up in like 10 mins anyway. Akainu got two hits point blant, and one of them was off guard. And he STILL got up after a while.
If this was a clean fight between Akainu and old WB (in meds; i.e one that has top tier haki).
Then this would've been an extended fight. Whitebeard would use his great haki to tank attacks from Akainu. Akainu likewise would use his haki and mobility to tank/dodge attacks from Whitebeard.
Of course it won't be like Kaido or Luffy, both of whom are built with high durability (dragon scales for general dura, rubber on blunt force).
But this fight won't be decided in a couple of hits either.
One can think of a Zoro vs Kaku fight - two human characters who hit above their tier, fighting against each other. Won't last like Kaido vs Luffy, but one can assume that enough hits will be exchanged before a victor emerges.
This is a fair point. Luffy made Lucci look easy purely because he was in G5 which is a lot of effort on Luffy's part. You've changed my mind, to be consistent I will have to readjust this to Luffy beat Lucci Mid Diff. Not clear what haki Luffy used but the fact that Lucci couldn't do anything at all during that fight and was toyed with by Luffy. But it did take Luffy effort to do all of that so can't label that Low Diff anymore.
As long as you're consistent, I am fine dude. The issue I had with people here was always the double standards.
I will still maintain that Luffy low diff'd Lucci, because I give equal weight to injury as well.
But Luffy used a good amount of effort on Lucci, and would've needed even more to actually defeat Lucci instead of just briefly putting him down and scramming.
We can reasonably assume that Luffy used advanced armament as well. Because we know Lucci is an advanced armament user, and you cannot defend against that with just basic armament (point of advanced armament to begin with is to bypass thick skin which is basically what armament hardening gives).
If your criteria for determining difficulty of a fight is primarily effort, this would at least qualify for a mid diff.
Comparing effort by Luffy and Zoro:
- Luffy used G5, but no gigantification and presumably not advanced conqueror's.
High effort, but nowhere near maximum effort. Resulted in a stomp: some clashes, dodged all attacks and then briefly KO'd Lucci. With higher end attacks, he would've reduced Lucci closer to 0% hp than like 80% hp
- Zoro used advanced armament. "Smoke" at some point, but majority of the fight in
nitoryuu. He was
medium effort on average till finale. He then got serious, dodged barrage of named attacks
casually (implication being serious Zoro outclasses Lucci in CQC), and presumably used advanced conqueror's to almost one shot Lucci (say from 75% hp to less than 20%).
Still an attack with no bandana (bandana is canonically associated with seriousness), no KoH, a mid-end named move. So,
went from medium effort (fighting even) to high effort in the finale (but nowhere near max effort) and stomp.
Yeah I was surprised to see the ribbon being used even back then. But definitely think Enel was slept on due to Luffy's rubber making him look easier than he should have been. The recent transformation that Greenbull did where he turned into a Forrest being also makes me think that is a partial awakening (or full) too. Logia's transforming into beings that embody the element seems the best course to go. Guessing all of logia Admirals have some form like this when fighting all out. Kizaru definitely has more in him than we saw this arc.
Also need to check if Sengoku had ribbons when he turned into Gold Buddah form. Maybe he was awakened too?
Logia awakening has been saved for the last, and hence has the most buildup/hype.
I hope Oda delivers on it.
Don't want it to just be "elemental avatar".
But I can buy the "elemental avatar" as a mode the logia user needs to be in, for the DF awakening to happen. Like, Enel should be in that "Amaru" form, Greenbull should be in Broccoli form etc.
And yeah, I think Greenbull is awakened. He restored the vegetation for like half of Wano and it looks like it's staying. Very awakening-esque.
Enel is slept on not just because of rubber hard counter, but also because pre haki, pre gears Luffy was hurting him and landing hits on him (while it is unimaginable that pre TS base Luffy lands a single hit on Vergo for example).
Of course the context is Oda not planning that far ahead, similar to Crocodile.
So if he comes back, he will still be a monster who is at bare minimum high commander level.
