Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Darklord#10]

""Zoro has already taken his Haki a step above the handful of the very strongest.
And Roger has only managed to reach that level.

Roger's haki is a step behind Zoro's haki and not even Zoro's haki is good enough for Mihawk's level yet.
Zoro needs to take his haki to the level where it surpasses Mihawk's haki in order to beat him.

And despite having haki in a higher level than Roger, it is still not enough for Mihawk.
It is simple, Roger's haki was too weak. It never reached the point to surpass the original rank of the sword.

He was carried by his sword instead of surpassing it and lifting the sword to a higher level.
Zoro is ruining yall agendas, all the time. He is the question that yall don't have any answers for.
So yes, Mihawk is the greatest haki master in the show because even the guy with haki stronger than Roger's cant surpass Mihawk's, yet."-courtesy of WG

 

[669ako]

""Zoro has already taken his Haki a step above the handful of the very strongest.
And Roger has only managed to reach that level.

Roger's haki is a step behind Zoro's haki and not even Zoro's haki is good enough for Mihawk's level yet.
Zoro needs to take his haki to the level where it surpasses Mihawk's haki in order to beat him.

And despite having haki in a higher level than Roger, it is still not enough for Mihawk.
It is simple, Roger's haki was too weak. It never reached the point to surpass the original rank of the sword.

He was carried by his sword instead of surpassing it and lifting the sword to a higher level.
Zoro is ruining yall agendas, all the time. He is the question that yall don't have any answers for.
So yes, Mihawk is the greatest haki master in the show because even the guy with haki stronger than Roger's cant surpass Mihawk's, yet."-courtesy of WG

What is this shit.

You are overate zoro thats much.

 

[Fox666]

That means anyone who can keep up with Kaido speed like Big Mom can easily blitz Lucci too. Big Mom who can keep up with Kaido speed got blitzed by Katakuri.

I don't understand your obsession in defending Katakuri as having speed above the Yonko... Big Mom didn't move at all from the table, and was charging Zeus and Prometheus

 

[BlackTiger]

I don't understand your obsession in defending Katakuri as having speed above the Yonko... Big Mom didn't move at all from the table, and was charging Zeus and Prometheus

This is a dumb question. That's like asking what's the obsession with making Kaido more durable than admirals. There is no obsession. It's debunking misinformation that you're trying to spread in this thread.

The question should be what's your obsession with making everyone and their Mother as fast or faster than WCI Snakeman? Where is this obsession coming from? I don't remember people claim Moria/Absalom/Oars Jr/Zombie Ryuma was faster than Enies Lobby Gear 2 but here for some reason King who cannot even land a hit on Zoro without Enma distraction is faster than Dressrosa Boundman let alone WCI Snakeman

If chapter 1042 where Snakeman blitzes Kaido didn't exist yeah. Unfortunately, that chapter does exist and Snakeman is shown much faster than Kaido which makes Katakuri much faster than Kaido too. You can blame Oda why did he make Kaido got blitzed by Snakeman who is relative to Katakuri in speed.

I'll just make it simple for you: Snakeman hype=Katakuri hype

Katakuri distance from Luffy was much farther than Big Mom distance from Luffy but Katakuri hit Luffy first. Katakuri hits much faster than Big Mom. What so hard to understand?

So when Big Mom was charging Zeus to hit Luffy, Katakuri who was much farther than Luffy hit Luffy first. When Big Mom was charging Zeus, Katakuri already hit Luffy despite he's much farther than Luffy. Isn't it a blitz?

Just how many attacks can Katakuri do when Big Mom is charging Zeus? the speed diffeence is huge between the 2 of them.

Just imagine if there is a fly 1 cm from you. You try to hit the fly but me who is 100 cm from the fly hits the fly first which makes me much faster than you.

 

[Fox666]

Almost everyone here seems to agree that Luffy got a lot stronger and faster during his fight with Kaido.

I don't see why you waste time listing all of Katakuri speed feats against Luffy over and over again. Everyone knows Katakuri was fast back then, that's not the point of disagreement.

Just imagine if there is a fly 1 cm from you. You try to hit the fly but me who is 100 cm from the fly hits the fly first which makes me much faster than you.

Big Mom didn't "tried" to hit yet. Plot prevented her from jumping straight to Luffy's neck...

 

[BlackTiger]

Almost everyone here seems to agree that Luffy got a lot stronger and faster during his fight with Kaido.

I don't see why you waste time listing all of Katakuri speed feats against Luffy over and over again. Everyone knows Katakuri was fast back then, that's not the point of disagreement.

Just because everyone agrees 1+1 is 4 doesn't mean that 1+1 is 4. This is a dumb argument.

Why Wano Luffy being faster than WCI Luffy prevent Katakuri from being faster than Kaido?

So Wano Snakeman blitzed Kaido so Kaido is faster than Katakuri because Wano Snakeman>WCI Snakeman in speed.

Base MF Luffy blitzed random fodder marine so random fodder marine was faster than Enies Lobby Lucci because MF base Luffy>base Enies Lobby Luffy is that your argument?

I can make anyone more durable than Kaido post Wano by this argument. Heck I can make Kizaru more durable than Kaido because Gear 5 is much stronger physically in Egghead so Kizaru got 1 shot doesn't matter the same way Wano Snakeman was much faster than WCI Snakeman so Kaido got blitzed by Snakeman didn't matter.

It's funny because I never heard that Thriller Bark Luffy was much stronger/faster/durable than Enies Lobby but for some reason there's a massive speed gap for Luffy from WCI to Wano here.

Seems like you don't want Katakuri to be faster than certain character which makes that certain characters cannot hit let alone beat Katakuri let's say that certain character is Zoro because Katakuri>Zoro makes Katakuri>Marco.

Therefore you're desperate to make anyone and their Mother who is relative to Luffy to be as fast as WCI Snakeman or faster than WCI Snakeman. Seems desperate?

You also can't prove how Luffy got faster.

When Luffy was training with Hyo, Luffy said he wanted to hit harder to penetrate Kaido scale. Luffy never said Luffy wanted to get faster. Luffy never said he had to get faster to dodge Thunder Bagua.
When Luffy damaged Kaido with Red Roc, Kaido said how can Luffy damage him. Kaido never said how Luffy got faster.
When Luffy said how he failed to damage Kaido, Luffy said his damage was too shallow. Luffy never said how he was still too slow for Kaido.
When Luffy lost to Kaido in their 2nd 1 on 1 duel, after Zoro went down Kaido said it was because Luffy advCoC usage was poor. He never said because Luffy was still too slow.

The most obvious thing is when rooftop Luffy dodged Thunder Bagua. Kaido didn't say "impressive you can dodge the same attack this time" or "impressive you are fast enough to dodge the same attack this time".

What Kaido said was actually "impressive you didn't let the same attack hit you twice". That's what Kaido said. Kaido never praised Luffy speed to dodge Thunder Bagua he praised Luffy for not letting the same attack hit him twice.

Kaido knew when Luffy can use Future Sight (ch 1042 Kaido pointed out SNakeman used Future Sight) therefore Kaido praised Luffy used Future Sight that time which was the reason why Kaido said Luffy didn't let the same attack hit him twice because Luffy used Future Sight. So it's not speed boost that allowed Luffy to dodge Thunder Bagua. You get debunked by Kaido.

Where is this the argument that Luffy can match Kaido because Luffy got faster coming from?

I also already debunked your "act 1 Luffy cannot dodge Thunder Bagua but rooftop Luffy can argument" with "act 1 Luffy didn't use Future Sight while rooftop Luffy used Future Sight".

There are also panels I already provided to make a comparison how post Udon Luffy still failed to dodge Thunder Bagua but you chose to ignore this and repeat the same argument.

AT this point just admit that you don't want Katakuri to beat Zoro because that makes Katakuri>Marco so you make post Udon Luffy much faster than pre Udon Luffy so Zoro and anyone who is relative to post Udon Luffy also got much faster unfortunately Oda never shown Luffy speed boost post Udon everything is only in your head.

Big Mom didn't "tried" to hit yet. Plot prevented her from jumping straight to Luffy's neck...

She TRIED TO HIT LUFFY AS FAST AS SHE CAN. Big Mom charging Zeus is part of the attack so you can't say Big Mom didn't try to hit Luffy She was mad at Luffy for ruining her Wedding Cake, for eating her cake. She tried as fast as she can but she's too slow so Katakuri who was much farther than Luffy hit Luffy first before Big Mom hit Luffy.

By the time, Big Mom was charging Zeus, Katakuri already land 1 attack. If it were a fight between Big Mom and Katakuri, by the time Big Mom is charging Zeus, Katakuri already hits Big Mom several times therefore a blitz.

Plot is a poor excuse because you cannot use powercreep to downplay Katakuri this time since this event happened before the imaginary npowercreep that you worship in Wano.

 

[Pirate Queen]

""Zoro has already taken his Haki a step above the handful of the very strongest.
And Roger has only managed to reach that level.

Roger's haki is a step behind Zoro's haki and not even Zoro's haki is good enough for Mihawk's level yet.
Zoro needs to take his haki to the level where it surpasses Mihawk's haki in order to beat him.

And despite having haki in a higher level than Roger, it is still not enough for Mihawk.
It is simple, Roger's haki was too weak. It never reached the point to surpass the original rank of the sword.

He was carried by his sword instead of surpassing it and lifting the sword to a higher level.
Zoro is ruining yall agendas, all the time. He is the question that yall don't have any answers for.
So yes, Mihawk is the greatest haki master in the show because even the guy with haki stronger than Roger's cant surpass Mihawk's, yet."-courtesy of WG

 

[BlackTiger]

If it's not clear Snakeman blitzes exoskeleton Sanji. Exoskeleton Sanji got blitzed by casual Kizaru like a fodder he was while casual Kizaru was in stalemate with Snakeman.

The gap between Snakeman and Sanji in speed is too huge. Even if Egghead Snakeman is nerfed to WCI Snakeman, WCI Snakeman still blitzes Egghead exoskeleton Sanji.

Just like the gap between Zoro and Usopp in speed is too huge. Even if Egghead Zoro is nerfed to Dressrosa Zoro, Dressrosa Zoro still blitzes Egghead Usopp.

 

[Fox666]

Just because everyone agrees 1+1 is 4 doesn't mean that 1+1 is 4. This is a dumb argument.

I'm not claiming that what the majority believes is true, I'm saying that you are not addressing the core issue

You keep making huge posts about minor details, while not addressing what really matters

During his fight with Kaido, Luffy got so strong and fast that his base form would one-shot and speed-blitz his previous Gear 4 self. the difference in power is astronomical

Base MF Luffy blitzed random fodder marine so random fodder marine was faster than Enies Lobby Lucci because MF base Luffy>base Enies Lobby Luffy is that your argument?

I have no idea what you are trying to say with these analogies

 

[BlackTiger]

I'm not claiming that what the majority believes is true, I'm saying that you are not addressing the core issue

You keep making huge posts about minor details, while not addressing what really matters

I addressed what really matters it's the powercreep that you think happened during Wano when nobody said Thriller Bark Luffy was much faster/stronger/durable than Enies Lobby Luffy.

During his fight with Kaido, Luffy got so strong and fast that his base form would one-shot and speed-blitz his previous Gear 4 self. the difference in power is astronomical

I'm asking you where's the statements that Luffy got faster. Kaido never praised Luffy speed for dodging Thunder Bagua. When rooftop Luffy lost in his first 1 on 1 duel vs Kaido, Kaido said his advCoC usage was poor not because he was slow. Luffy told hyo to make him stronger to penetrate Kaido scale, not to make him faster.

Already debunked this Luffy got faster post Udon. I said act 1 Luffy didn't use FS rooftop Luffy used FS. Why repeat the same thing? I also provided the comparison between pre and post Udon Luffy but you chose not to read and repeat the same argument. Again.

Can you read or you pretend not to read because you don't have arguments?

I hate to repeat myself it's like talking with a parrot. I don't mind arguing if you bring something new but the only thing you did was repeating the same argument I debunked without refuting anything I said.

I have no idea what you are trying to say with these analogies

I just used an analogy. You said:
Wano Snakeman is much faster than WCI Snakeman therefore Wano Snakeman victim (Kaido) is faster than Katakuri.

Then I compared it with MF Luffy and random marine fodder in MF.
MF base Luffy is much faster than Enies Lobby base Luffy therefore MF Base Luffy victim (random fodder marine) is faster than Lucci

The comparison here:
MF base Luffy=Wano Snakeman
Enies Lobby base Luffy=WCI Snakeman
Random fodder marine=Kaido
Lucci=Katakuri

--- Double Post Merged, May 16, 2024, Original Post Date: May 16, 2024 ---

Luffy got so strong and fast that his base form would one-shot and speed-blitz his previous Gear 4 self.

So in term of speed, Katakuri>>>>Big Mom=non Thunder Bagua Kaido=Wano base Luffy>>>WCI Gear 4 Luffy.

You think Big Mom can blitz WCI Gear 4 Luffy? Big Mom cannot even blitz Jinbe

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I'm almost tempted to show the ignored content. Then again ignorance is bliss. I vow to remain ignorant. Wish me luck on my quest to attain ataraxy.

Wish good luck to Katakuri to be even in the top 50 of fastest characters EOS.

We already got the Gorosei coming out of left field as op fighters. Once God's Knights, Red Hair Pirates, and Blackbeard Pirates get their full showcase most of the current top tiers will be relegated to side characters that will just be around.

At least for me Kata stopped being relevant when he & Oven got knocked out by Caesar Clown of all people. With all that Future Sight hype he used to get I was pretty disappointed. And now that Luffy has G5, Snakeman will be even less important and we'll have more opponents be too strong for it, kind of like G2 & G3 became just average post TS.

 

[BlackTiger]

We already got the Gorosei coming out of left field as op fighters. Once God's Knights, Red Hair Pirates, and Blackbeard Pirates get their full showcase most of the current top tiers will be relegated to side characters that will just be around.

At least for me Kata stopped being relevant when he & Oven got knocked out by Caesar Clown of all people. With all that Future Sight hype he used to get I was pretty disappointed. And now that Luffy has G5, Snakeman will be even less important and we'll have more opponents be too strong for it, kind of like G2 & G3 became just average post TS.

Future Sight cannot detect sneak attack. Katakuri did not detect Flampe hit Luffy. Reread the manga before spreading lies. Katakuri also did not get knocked out. That's Zoro who fainted from nameless Kamazo stab so you are lying again.

Garp was still relevant after pre TS Luffy bled him. Zoro was still relevant after Yeti Cool Brothers knocked him out like a fodder he was. Smoothie is also coming back and you better hope she doesn't stall Zoro in Elbaf like Lucci did that's embarrassing. There's also Pudding plot.

Current Zoro still cannot hit Katakuri and get low diffed. He doesn't have Future Sight. He is much slower than Gear 2 Luffy too who already got blitzed by Katakuri.

 

[Fox666]

I hate to repeat myself it's like talking with a parrot.

I'm shocked. I would have swear that's what you love the most.

I just said that if we don't agree on the powercreep, arguing about minor details is pointless. Then you go on and make a huge talking about small details...

 

[DeadlyBeast]

@DeadlyBeast Current Zoro cannot hit Katakuri. He gets blitzed and low diffed.

Zoro's waiting for Kata to get past Caesar

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2024, Original Post Date: May 17, 2024 ---

Future Sight cannot detect sneak attack.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Post Udon non FS Boundman still got blitzed by Thunder Bagua so where's the powercreep.

Katakuri also already blitzed Big Mom someone comparable with non Thunder bagua Kaido with speed and non Thunder Bagua Kaido was shown comparable with base Luffy in speed. If base Luffy got much faster,
Katakuri>>>Big Mom=Non Thunder Bagua Kaido=Base Luffy>>>WCI Boundman

Do you think Big Mom can blitz WCI Boundman? She cannot blitz Jinbe.


Yeti Cool Bros knocked out Zoro. Caesar did't knock out Katakuri

Katakuri already blitzed Snakeman who made Kaido like this btw.

Zoro is not even faster than base Luffy that how slow he is

Current Zoro still cannot hit Katakuri. He gets blitzed and low diffed like a fodder he is.



Flampe snuck on Luffy. Katakuri Future Sight didn't detect it. Future Sight doesn't make you have third eyes on the back of your head did you even read WCI?

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2024, Original Post Date: May 17, 2024 ---

I forgot to address this. Snakeman is much more relevant than Gear 5 in speed.

Snakeman blitzed Kaido. Kaido outpaced Gear 5 multiple times.

Snakeman forced Kizaru to accelerate himself. Kaido was unable to kill Vegapunk when he was fighting Snakeman.
Not even Rayleigh can force Kizaru to his max speed because Rayleigh is not as fast as Snakeman.

Gear 5 cannot force Kizaru to accelerate himself to get faster. Kizaru almost killed Vegapunk the moment Luffy turned into Gear 5.
All hits Gear 5 did on Kizaru was due to sneak attack.



Give me a list of opponents who are too strong for Snakeman.
Only Shanks because Shanks has FS killer.

Kaido only landed 1 attack on Snakeman due to FS. The damage he did was also not comparable with the damage done by Buzzcut Mochi.
Kizaru only landed 1 kick on Snakeman. Landed 1 kick isn't special. That's not the proof you are too strong for that mode because while Kizaru raised his speed to the max, Snakeman didn't use its fastest attack King Cobra.

By that Logic Katakuri was also too strong to Snakeman because he landed more than 1 attack. The difference was, Snakeman turned into Boundman vs Kaido because Gear 4 time limit was almost up not because Kaido was too strong so Luffy switched to Boundman for higher ap to finish Kaido as soon as possible before Gear 4 time limit ran out.

Against Kizaru, Luffy switched to Gear 5 because Kizaru was going to kill Vegapunk and Snakeman didn't provide mobility. Luffy switched to Gear 5 because Gear 5 provided mobility to chase Kizaru to stop him from killing Vegapunk even though Gear 5 speed in inferior to Snakeman.

If Kizaru didn't amp his speed, Snakeman vs Kizaru will go on until Snakeman ran out of steam.

Big Mom, Aokiji, Akainu, Fujitora, Ryokugyu will get blitzed by Snakeman.

You are mistaking Snakeman with advCoC. Someone with FS and Snakeman speed is a nightmare for advCoC users who are not as durable as Kaido and Big Mom or don't have Future Sight (Zoro and Yamato)

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2024 ---

I quoted Fox666 to debunk his arguments.

You quoted me not with the intention to debunk that the solution that I gave to your immature boyfriend was wrong.

You quoted me with a meme which doesn't explain how the solution that I gave to your butthurt boyfriend was wrong.

So the intent you quoted me was to seek my attention therefore I called you an attention whore which is very fitting.

RIP Katakuri who has joined the defeated and no longer plot relevant characters.

 

[BlackTiger]

RIP Katakuri who has joined the defeated and no longer plot relevant characters.

Relevancy doesn't decide whether a character is strong or not. Irrelevancy is what happened with Doflamingo.

Doflamingo became irrelevant the moment Cracker pressured Boundman, Katakuri beat the crap out of Boundman and Kaido 1 shot Boundman.

That never happened with Snakeman. Kaido needed FS to counter Snakeman and still didn't outperform Katakuri vs Snakeman.. Kizaru needed to amp his speed to counter Snakeman and still didn't outperform Katakuri vs Snakeman. They're lucky they never faced the fastest version of Snakeman King Cobra.

Current Zoro needs to prove how he's faster than base Luffy.

Then we can discuss how he's faster than Gear 2.

Then we can discuss how he's faster than Boundman.

Then we can decide if Zoro's as fast as Snakeman.

Then see if Zoro has FS or not.

Zoro is still in step 1. He hasn't shown better speed feat than base Luffy. Katakuri doesn't need FS to no diff current Zoro.

 

[BlackTiger]

Notice me, senpai

You're just an attention whore. What you are doing is prolonging the conflict. If you didn’t quote me which is obvious only to start and prolong the conflict, I will only quote Fox666.

You are much more toxic than Nik87. You are just an instigator 🥱

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2024, Original Post Date: May 17, 2024 ---

I'm shocked. I would have swear that's what you love the most.

I just said that if we don't agree on the powercreep, arguing about minor details is pointless. Then you go on and make a huge talking about small details...

No I debunked your arguments while you didn't debunk any arguments of mine.

1.
Post Udon Luffy still got blitzed by Thunder Bagua so where's the powercreep?

2.
Wano base Luffy can't be much faster than WCI Gear 4 Luffy because Big Mom kept up with non Thunder Bagua Kaido who tagged base Wano Luffy.

Do you think Big Mom is much faster than WCI Gear 4?

Big Mom in WCI is not portrayed significantly much faster than base Luffy let alone WCI Boundman/Snakeman. WCI Big Mom cannot even blitz Jinbe.

 

[Fox666]

No I debunked your arguments while you didn't debunk any arguments of mine.

1.
Post Udon Luffy still got blitzed by Thunder Bagua so where's the powercreep?

2.
Wano base Luffy can't be much faster than WCI Gear 4 Luffy because Big Mom kept up with non Thunder Bagua Kaido who tagged base Wano Luffy.

Do you think Big Mom is much faster than WCI Gear 4?

Big Mom in WCI is not portrayed significantly much faster than base Luffy let alone WCI Boundman/Snakeman. WCI Big Mom cannot even blitz Jinbe.

You didn't debunked my arguments because I'm not arguing over minor details. If you don't agree on the powercreep, there's no point in arguing.

Kaido wiped the floor with the Scabbards, which included many commander-level characters, such as Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Asura Douji, Denjiro, possibly Kawamatsu or Izou. And Kaido didn't even used his hybrid form.

But Luffy in his base form could keep up with hybrid Kaido. Therefore, Luffy would almost wipe the floor with multiple commander-level characters.

And Big Mom, who is more-or-less equal with Kaido, could also do the same. That makes sense, since when she was going crazy, her crew, Katakuri included, didn't even consider the possibility of stopping her:

That's how strong a Yonko is compared to their own crew. None of them stands a chance against big Mom.

Perosperos also mentioned the Big Mom Pirates would be done if Big Mom died:

Which again, makes sense, when you compare with what happened to the Whitebeard Pirates without their captain.

So why didn't Big Mom defeated Luffy in 3 seconds when she had the chance? Plot armor. Just like in Marineford, Luffy was standing in front of the 3 Admirals, and any of them could defeat Luffy in 0.1 second, but that didn't happened.

 

[BlackTiger]

You didn't debunked my arguments because I'm not arguing over minor details. If you don't agree on the powercreep, there's no point in arguing.

I did I debunked how Luffy didn't get much faster unless you agree Big Mom in Wano who can keep up with Kaido is much faster than WCI Boundman which is wrong. Big Mom cannot even blitz Jinbe

Kaido wiped the floor with the Scabbards, which included many commander-level characters, such as Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Asura Douji, Denjiro, possibly Kawamatsu or Izou. And Kaido didn't even used his hybrid form.

Those characters are much slower than Snakeman. Sulong Neko almost lost to Perospero. Perospero is weaker than even Snack. Scabbards are bums tbh they are bunch of weaklings.

We saw what happened when Kaido fought Snakeman he got blitzed.

This doesn't refute that Kaido will be helpless against Katakuri/Snakeman speed.

Hybrid does not make the user faster I already discussed this.

But Luffy in his base form could keep up with hybrid Kaido.

Because Kaido was not using Thunder Bagua. Non Thunder Bagua Kaido cannot blitz Big Mom who cannot blitz Jinbe. Luffy did not get faster. Kaido just used slower attacks (his non Thunder Bagua attacks). Post Udon Luffy still got blitzed by Thunder Bagua so where's the speed boost/powercreep?

Therefore, Luffy would almost wipe the floor with multiple commander-level characters.

I think base Luffy will get fucked up though. Luffy is weak to cutting attacks. Cutting attacks with ryuo will fuck Luffy up. Luffy can keep up with Kaido because Kaido used blunt attacks his club

WCI Luffy in Snakeman Sure. Those scabbards are weak after all. I don't think any of them can dodge Snakeman attacks when they cannot see even Kaido flying slash.

Kinemon got low diffed by Punk Hazard Law. He was shitting his pants seeing fucking Pica.
Sulong Neko almost lost to Perospero.
Sulong Inu is relative to Sulong Neko.
Ashura is weaker than Sulong Dukes.
Kiku is possibly the weakest scabbard the only one who lost her arm from Kaido cutting attack.
Denjiro cannot see Kaido flying slash while Law casually dodged it
Izo cannot hit Akainu despite Marco and other WBP help. Akainu is much slower than Katakuri with inferior CoO.

And Big Mom, who is more-or-less equal with Kaido, could also do the same.

Yeah Big Mom can solo scabbards.

That makes sense, since when she was going crazy, her crew, Katakuri included, didn't even consider the possibility of stopping her:

Katakuri never said that he cannot stop Big Mom. Katakuri said what would have happened if Big Mom hunger pang was not stopped. Hunger pang Big Mom even almost lost to Jinbe. What can hunger pang Big Mom do to Katakuri? He would treat her much worse than what Jinbe did.

That's how strong a Yonko is compared to their own crew. None of them stands a chance against big Mom

Again Katakuri never said he cannot stop Big Mom. Only said what would have happened if Big Mom hunger pang was not stopped. Hunger pang Big Mom lost to Jinbe.

Perosperos also mentioned the Big Mom Pirates would be done if Big Mom died:

That doesn't support your point at all. That actually supports my point. Katakuri and Big Mom pirates need Big Mom alive. The only way to stop hunger pang Big Mom is by killing her. KOing her won't stop her she will get up. So the only way to stop her is by killing her which they cannot do because it will be the end of Big Mom Pirates.

That's also because of her influence. Just think what would have happened if Alabasta Luffy died. It would be the end of SHP despite Zoro was close to Lufy in strength.

Which again, makes sense, when you compare with what happened to the Whitebeard Pirates without their captain.

Because Whitebeard Pirates are bums lmao

Jozu lost to Doflamingo. Doflamingo was weak compared to Cracker.
Vista needed back up to face Ronse.
Crocodile who was weaker than Cracker can stop Mihawk without using haki. Marco needed haki to stop weaker top tier Kizaru.

Kaido was even afraid at the possibility fighting Big Mom Pirates while Kaido was confident with only bringing King to fight Whitebeard Pirates at Marineford.

So why didn't Big Mom defeated Luffy in 3 seconds when she had the chance? Plot armor. Just like in Marineford, Luffy was standing in front of the 3 Admirals, and any of them could defeat Luffy in 0.1 second, but that didn't happened.

This seems like a cope. She failed to hit Luffy because Katakuri was much faster than her that's it. It has nothing to do with plot.

None of the admirals was trying to attack Luffy though so you can excuse that. Big Mom was trying to attack Luffy but Katakuri attack hit Luffy because Katakuri IS MUCH FASTER THAN Big Mom.

Deal with it. This plot cope excuse is pathetic.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Relevancy doesn't decide whether a character is strong or not. Irrelevancy is what happened with Doflamingo.

Doflamingo became irrelevant the moment Cracker pressured Boundman, Katakuri beat the crap out of Boundman and Kaido 1 shot Boundman.

That never happened with Snakeman. Kaido needed FS to counter Snakeman and still didn't outperform Katakuri vs Snakeman.. Kizaru needed to amp his speed to counter Snakeman and still didn't outperform Katakuri vs Snakeman. They're lucky they never faced the fastest version of Snakeman King Cobra.

Current Zoro needs to prove how he's faster than base Luffy.

Then we can discuss how he's faster than Gear 2.

Then we can discuss how he's faster than Boundman.

Then we can decide if Zoro's as fast as Snakeman.

Then see if Zoro has FS or not.

Zoro is still in step 1. He hasn't shown better speed feat than base Luffy. Katakuri doesn't need FS to no diff current Zoro.

Katakuri as he sees the manga leave him behind